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Amblikai
8th Jan 2015, 09:09
So i'm about half way through my PPL, having only just gone solo about a month ago. I haven't flown since and i'm keeping the withdrawal symptoms at bay by "mentally flying"!

Anyway, i was just wondering what people would do in certain circumstances.

You're flying circuits and you just turned downwind, ready to give your downwind call, but you can't get a word in as the radio (tower) is really busy. Before you know it, you're ready to turn final and still can't get talking to ATC.
Do you continue with your approach? Potentially without permission to land/Touch and Go? Or do you abort and go around? At which point should you have made the decision to go around due to no contact with ATC?

Another one being total radio failure... You're coming back to your airfield and are about to request rejoin when you realise comms are dead. Obviously there are the no radio procedures, flying triangles etc. But my understanding (it even says in the textbooks) is that these sometimes (usually) don't work.

So at which point do you give up trying to get ATCs attention by drawing pretty shapes on their screen? And at that point, what do you do? Carry on regardless? Divert?

Sorry if these are silly straight forward questions! You can probably tell, the thought of a radio failure or landing without permission bothers me a bit!

Thanks!

RTN11
8th Jan 2015, 09:33
You're flying circuits and you just turned downwind, ready to give your downwind call, but you can't get a word in as the radio (tower) is really busy. Before you know it, you're ready to turn final and still can't get talking to ATC.
Do you continue with your approach? Potentially without permission to land/Touch and Go? Or do you abort and go around? At which point should you have made the decision to go around due to no contact with ATC?

Aviate, navigate, communicate, that's the order of priority. Keep flying the plane and get a position call in when you can. Tower will have you in sight if you're in the circuit so will be well aware what you're doing, and if they haven't issued instructions to orbit or hold on the downwind I would continue to base can call as soon as I can. Often the radio gets very busy, just get the confidence to jump in with a short position call when you can. If on finals no clearance is coming, then it's a go around.

Another one being total radio failure... You're coming back to your airfield and are about to request rejoin when you realise comms are dead. Obviously there are the no radio procedures, flying triangles etc. But my understanding (it even says in the textbooks) is that these sometimes (usually) don't work.

Often each airport has it's own specific policy which can be found in the AIP, for example I learnt at Bournemouth which is inside class D, I seem to remember it was 3 orbits at the boundary, then enter and proceed to land.

If in doubt, one low approach and go around followed by a circuit to land would be sensible. These days I have most tower frequencies in my mobile phone, so would try that, I've even heard of someone getting a text from the controller saying cleared to land when their radio had packed up.

Amblikai
8th Jan 2015, 09:52
Thanks, that's along the lines i was thinking but i didn't know that certain airfields had different procedures, i'm off to read the AIP more closely!

Strangely, the thought of an engine failure doesn't bother me nearly as much as a radio failure. I'd hate to be flying along, thinking i'm still in contact with ATC only to miss some vital bit of traffic info. (Obviously i'd be looking out as normal but it sure is helpful when ATC tells you theres a helicopter operating in the area for example.

pulse1
8th Jan 2015, 10:32
If you have a transponder squawk 7600 when you have a radio failure. ATC will then know you have a problem and will expect you to complete your flight as planned. Once you can see the Tower, don't then forget to look for the appropriate light signals and any other visual aids such as the landing T and windsock.

Genghis the Engineer
8th Jan 2015, 10:37
Probably because you've trained for an engine failure, but not for a radio failure.


I've had several radio failures, and so far failed to annoy anybody with my behaviour, so I'll offer some thoughts.


If you have a comms failure, above all else, fly really really predictably. So, for example, if you are on a planned route and expected at a particular airfield at a particular time - follow that route, join by a method that is obvious and gives everybody a chance to see you (so absolutely no straight in approaches - deadside, downwind or overhead, depending upon local rules: overhead would always be my preference, given a choice - overhead as it gives the airfield more time to see me, and me a chance to see the signal square).

Don't forget that if you have a transponder, and you have time (and still have power!), squawk 7600. If it's working, that means there's a fighting chance of light or flare signals being used for you at your destination.

In any variation on the above case, then go straight to ATC and explain yourself ! That way, the potential for any genuine upset should be minimal.


With regard to inability to get a word in in the circuit, it will depend upon the airport. If it is a controlled airport such that you should normally require a clearance to land, then fly a normal circuit, but go-around early, fly another circuit and hopefully you'll actually manage to talk to them next time. That said, a good controller will know where you are, recognise the problem, and give you clearance and/or instruction when you are on final, even if you didn't ask for it.

If a clearance to land is not required, which is the case at "information" or "radio" airfields such as Popham or White Waltham, then you are well within your rights (subject to normal airmanship) to simply carry on and land, or even do a touch and go.

G

cats_five
8th Jan 2015, 11:04
"when you have apparent radio failure"


Sometimes the radio is still transmitting but something has gone wrong somewhere along receiving and letting you hear what is received, so use the transmitting blind protocol. This is the NZ site but it looks to have plenty of useful information:


CAA Flight Instructor Guide ? Circuit Training: Radio Failure (http://www.caa.govt.nz/fig/circuit-training/radio-failure.html)

FleetFlyer
8th Jan 2015, 11:54
On the subject of apparent radio failure, when you transmit but hear nothing back, but are certain your radio is on and you have the correct frequency selected, don't forget to check that you have the volume turned up on both the radio and your headset.
I've actually managed to make this mistake more than once, but then I do suffer from imbecility from time to time.

Amblikai
8th Jan 2015, 12:10
Actually funnily enough there have been two times during my training so far where i've thought i had a radio failure only to realise that on one occasion i'd caught the headset lead on my kneeboard and pulled it out, and on the other i had the volume on my headset all the way down. The last one actually being on my solo check out. The instructor/examiner made all the radio calls for me, so i had an easy time!

With regards to light signals and flares, would all controlled airfields carry flares etc? I've never seen it happen so i'm not sure i'd know where to look for the light signals (obviously at the tower, but are they noticable/easy to see?). Do you think ATC would be open to me requesting a pretend radio failure circuit?

Binners93
8th Jan 2015, 12:54
Amblikai,

I had this exact thought not too long ago during my training and actually wanted to ask the opinions of those who have to deal with us. We were on the downwind as you mentioned and the radio was packed! This was very early training for me, so I didn't really take in the instructors response, hence going straight to the tower in the hope it would sink it straight away! This was what they emailed me;

--------

"Thank you for your email. Generally I would expect the pilot to make as many attempts as possible to get an acknowledgement of their Downwind call. In a busy environment it’s hard to pinpoint the reason as to why you didn’t get a response (perhaps you where part of a multi transmission and where not heard).

In any scenario the key is always to maintain a good look out and keep good radio awareness (to help you identify your position in the circuit), fly the circuit as you would normally and if your downwind call is still not acknowledged, make the base leg turn as normal (following whoever is ahead) and try again to let ATC know your position. ATC will be aware of you and would rather you maintain the circuit pattern than extend as this could cause other issues (conflict with instrument approach or transiting traffic outside the ATZ not talking to *******).

Please remember that every scenario is different and it’s hard to give an exact outline on how to act, the above is merely a basic outline on what ATC would expect. Lastly PLEASE NEVER orbit in the circuit without express permission from ATC, there will likely be aircraft behind you and this will cause a dangerous conflict.

The views expressed in this email are those of 2 members of the ATC team at *******. Where we all act on the same laws and procedures however opinion can change throughout.

I hope this answers your question and maybe on a future visit you can pop up the tower for a chat. We are all very friendly.

Happy flying"

-------

Taught me from the start and have never had to think about it during the crowded circuit anymore :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Jan 2015, 13:24
You're flying circuits and you just turned downwind, ready to give your downwind call, but you can't get a word in as the radio (tower) is really busy. Before you know it, you're ready to turn final and still can't get talking to ATC.



Do you continue with your approach? Potentially without permission to land/Touch and Go? Or do you abort and go around? At which point should you have made the decision to go around due to no contact with ATC?
I would continue to the flare and go around then if I hadn't had a landing clearance. At Cambridge if you can't get a word in it's usual for ATC to call you with "clear land" even though you haven't got a "final" call in.

foxmoth
8th Jan 2015, 15:24
Another one being total radio failure... You're coming back to your airfield and are about to request rejoin when you realise comms are dead. Obviously there are the no radio procedures, flying triangles etc.

I am surprised no one has pointed out that really the "fly triangles" procedure is really for someone caught above cloud so that someone can come and find you and shepherd you down, unlikely to be used much these days with modern aids, though with a transponder on 7500 it would probably be more noticeable than it would have been when first thought of!
I would also point out that if you are outside CAS and trying to get back in without being cleared to do so ideally you should remain clear and find somewhere else to land, how practical and safe this is depending on the weather and safety being overriding.

Amblikai
8th Jan 2015, 15:33
the "fly triangles" procedure is really for someone caught above cloud so that someone can come and find you and shepherd you down

Interesting, the books talk as though that is "the" procedure. Good to know!

Thanks for all the responses. I feel much better about it now. Maybe i'll just turn my radio off next time for practice! :}

Chilli Monster
8th Jan 2015, 15:37
..........unlikely to be used much these days with modern aids, though with a transponder on 7500 it would probably be more noticeable than it would have been when first thought of!

Very noticeable, and the Tornado on each wingtip would make the perfect "Shepherd".

(I think you mean 7600)

pulse1
8th Jan 2015, 15:39
It might be worth mentioning that, if you squawk 7600 for what turns out to be only a transmitter failure, ATC will probably use small changes to the squawk code in order to establish that you are hearing them. They may well request further adjustments to the code in order to learn more about you, e.g. whether you have any other problems or not.

Amblikai
8th Jan 2015, 15:42
Very noticeable, and the Tornado on each wingtip would make the perfect "Shepherd".

I always wondered, how slow can a tornado fly? If i'm bimbling along in a C152 with flaps out at 70Kts, is it going to be more "repeated fly-bys" than "shepherd"?

Maoraigh1
8th Jan 2015, 16:05
I would continue to the flare and go around then if I hadn't had a landing clearance.If I'd got to flare position, I'd land and clear runway as quickly as possible. Going around would just occupy runway space for longer - and give a problem for a faster aircraft going around because of your unexpected appearance.
I've had one radio failure in the circuit at night. I discovered it when I was unable to get a response to my Final calls. I landed, and cleared runway, making blind transmissions, and phoned the tower.
You should have the ATC number on your phone - you'll have difficulty hearing them with engine noise unless you have an earphone, but they'll hear you.
As a student, the most important thing is to fly your aircraft, and not worry about inconviencing others - don't lose control while trying to phone, or crash trying to land somewhere else.
I'd go to a farm strip and phone if I had an enroute radio failure, and my handheld also failed.
PS Check radio volume: Check headset volume:Check radio frequency - you can accidentaly flip the channel: Check headset plugs fully in: try other side sockets, using other ptt. If there's another headset, try it (If fitted, check anunciator panel switches.)

taxistaxing
8th Jan 2015, 16:38
Another one being total radio failure... You're coming back to your airfield and are about to request rejoin when you realise comms are dead. Obviously there are the no radio procedures, flying triangles etc. But my understanding (it even says in the textbooks) is that these sometimes (usually) don't work.

I'm hardly the voice of experience (just over 200 hours TT) but did experience radio failure last year routing Lydd to North Weald). I was flying with a friend who (thankfully :)) was p1 for this leg. We departed Lydd, dropped them off and were about to call southend radar when the radio died - the box went completely blank. We immediately squawked 7600 and were considering returning to Lydd (full ATC versus air-to-ground at north weald).

Five minutes later the radio flickered back into life so we immediately called Southend and explained the situation. They advised us to retain squawk 7600 and continue to north weald as planned. They were extremely helpful and called north weald to co-ordinate our arrival. Sure enough the radio cut out a few more times during the flight but in the end we were able to a normal join and landing at north weald. A hairy experience but my friend coped admirably and we have both learned from it.

In the scenario you describe, radio failure when I about to request joining info I'd probably use the same thought process and weigh up the facilities at the field I was intending to join versus other local airfields.

I wouldn't fancy popping up unannounced in the circuit at a busy a/g field with a failed radio. They have no radar facilities to see a squawk code and no authority to co-ordinate other circuit traffic around you. Fuel permitting I would prefer to squawk 7600 and fly to an ATC airfield that would see me coming and could take appropriate action. Obviously others with more experience may have a different view.

Above all remember your training, "aviate, navigate, communicate". The experience I outlined above highlighted to me how quickly panic sets in and you can become fixated a problem in the cockpit while forgetting to keep a good lookout or monitor your airspeed. The priority is to keep the aircraft flying safely. Once this is done you can think of a plan.

Whirlybird
8th Jan 2015, 16:41
Possibly not a recommendation, but this is what I did once in the case of apparent radio failure...

I was flying back from Paris to Le Touquet in an R22 helicopter, as a PPL(H), with another low hours helicopter pilot. We were party of a large group who'd gone to Paris for the weekend, but we were the first helicopter approaching Le Touquet. I called them...no response. I tried several times as we got closer and closer. I could hear everyone else on the radio, so it made little sense. Thinking I had transmission failure, but aware that I might not, I called again and gave my position, and said I intended to come in and land, but would approach low level so as to keep well out of the way of their fixed-wing traffic.

I did this safely, landed and paid the landing fee, and no-one asked to see me so I didn't ask to see them. It turned out that earlier in the day the Tower had called a Brit pilot who was over the Channel and asked him to return to the field as there was a problem with his flight plan, and been told to **** off. So he'd refused to talk to any more Brits!!! After I called, he started talking to Brits, so the rest of the group had no problems.

The CFI told me that what I did was safe, but actually illegal in Class D airspace. Since I was in a helicopter, I probably should have landed in a field and phoned the Tower. But I got no official reprimands.

No moral to this story, except maybe to say that a wrong decision is not a disaster so long as it's a safe one.

skyhawk_norway
8th Jan 2015, 16:49
Here in Norway, usually, if you are cleared for an touch and go, you have permission to fly the circuit, land, take off, turn crosswind and turn downwind.

If I was on downwind and the tower was busy, I would just continue on an extended downwind, and turn base and then a long final when I was cleared for another touch and go.

If extended downwind is not possible due to terrain or other traffic, I think I would have started orbiting on downwind and waited for contact..

mad_jock
8th Jan 2015, 16:59
the two times its happened to me I phoned the tower on my mobile.

Both cases it was due to a dead alternator.

Even got cleared into class D via mobile.

dagowly
8th Jan 2015, 17:02
I always wondered, how slow can a tornado fly? If i'm bimbling along in a C152 with flaps out at 70Kts, is it going to be more "repeated fly-bys" than "shepherd"?

It's not a tornado you want to worry about, it's a pair of typhoons. They'd keep circling you at their lowest cruise speed.

taxistaxing
8th Jan 2015, 17:17
Quote:
I always wondered, how slow can a tornado fly? If i'm bimbling along in a C152 with flaps out at 70Kts, is it going to be more "repeated fly-bys" than "shepherd"?


During the 2012 Olympics I remember being told that slow flying airspace incursions of the sep variety would be greeted by a helicopter (puma?). If radio formalities failed a marksman in the back would proceed to take out the offending pilot and/or engine block with a sniper rifle! Somewhat less glamorous, if no less lethal, than a fast jet interception.

foxmoth
8th Jan 2015, 17:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxmoth
..........unlikely to be used much these days with modern aids, though with a transponder on 7500 it would probably be more noticeable than it would have been when first thought of!
Very noticeable, and the Tornado on each wingtip would make the perfect "Shepherd".

(I think you mean 7600)

Quite correct - that will teach me not to post just before I am heading out!:\

Also of course, as someone else pointed out, one of the more likely reasons for radio failure is loss of electrics in which case you lose transponder and any other aircraft powered radio equipment.

150 Driver
8th Jan 2015, 18:12
On my first flight post qualification (!) I lost radio en route to Cambridge. Not the busiest airport in the world but busy enough.

Squawking 7600 wasn't an option as it was a total electrical failure - turned out to be a broken alternator. I suspect I hadn't been doing enough of the E in FREDA.

I'd been talking to the local military airfield prior to this, was a little way from Cambridge. After aviating and navigating I switched all electrics off to see if I could get any more juice out of the battery. Sure enough after five minutes I switched just the radio on and got a live display.

I called the military frequency as a Mayday and told them I planned to carry on to Cambridge if they could call ahead and get me clearance. Once there I had just enough juice in the battery to get a partial radio transmission out but it cut before I heard their full reply. However, after seeing that the circuit was obviously clear I went in anyway, fast - partly to get out of anyone's way and partly as I had no flaps. They were expecting me as the 'Follow Me'/Rescue truck was on the side of the runway - apparently there were green light signals from the Tower but I wasn't looking for them.

With hindsight and more experience I wouldn't now call Mayday in this situation but after speaking with ATC at Cambridge and the military they were OK with how I'd handled it.

mad_jock
8th Jan 2015, 18:16
They really don't care what you call it.

Just glad your down safe.

For some it would be a mayday.

For others its just another 3 hours flying a phone call land refuel get someone to swing the prop and then continue on for another 3 hours. All in blissful peace and quiet.

taxistaxing
8th Jan 2015, 18:23
With hindsight and more experience I wouldn't now call Mayday in this situation but after speaking with ATC at Cambridge and the military they were OK with how I'd handled it.

Sounds like a good call given your circumstances at the time. I'd have been sh*tting myself if that happened on my first flight post ppl. What constitutes a "mayday"' situation is subjective and at least calling mayday prompted ATC to sit up and take notice of a potentially dangerous situation evolving, and it obviously ended in a safe resolution.

I imagine there was some paperwork to do afterwards?

foxmoth
8th Jan 2015, 18:51
I would be one of those getting the prop swung and carrying on having made a phone call to my destination - do I think you were wrong calling a Mayday - absolutely NOT. If anyone has a problem and they feel they need to call a Mayday then they should do it, the last thing to do is deter that.

mad_jock
8th Jan 2015, 19:11
Honestly guys don't be scared for calling for help, do it sooner rather than later.

And as for the paper work there will just be the standard MOR form to fill out.

It takes 5 mins max.

They really don't make a fuss about things afterwards.

A phone call or a card to the units that helped you will be appreciated.

But there is no kangaroo court or anything unless you are stupid enough not to fess up and screw with heathrow or the like.

150 Driver
8th Jan 2015, 20:50
Paperwork was a Mandatory Occurrence Report, took a few minutes and that was that. I spent longer on the phone to both ATC's thanking them for their help.

After the MOR went in I gather CAA made contact with the maintenance organisation to see what the cause was.

The bigger problem was that wife and daughters came over to pick me up as arranged. I was on the airfield at the time with an engineer looking at the plane. Question to reception was 'has my husband arrived yet ?'. Answer 'Oh, you mean the one with the emergency landing ?'

And all that work convincing them how safe flying was :ugh:

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Jan 2015, 21:02
apparently there were green light signals from the Tower but I wasn't looking for them
Yes, I once discussed radio failure procedures with the Cambridge controllers - I asked them whether they had a clue where to look for the lights, and after some joking about "weren't they in that cupboard we cleaned out five years ago" they agreed that they did actually know where to put their hands on them.

Answer 'Oh, you mean the one with the emergency landing ?'
I think that actually they luurve "emergency landings" at Cambridge, gives the fire crews something to do.

I've had the fire trucks sent out for me at least three times, and on none of these occasions was I concerned that I had a serious issue.

thing
8th Jan 2015, 21:31
I was just reading this and thinking 'Yeah, no radio, bad' etc when I realised I spent around twenty years flying gliders all over the place without speaking to anyone ever. I still like to be talking to someone when I'm flying powered though, God knows why.

Anyway here's my story. Flying a 182 back from somewhere there was a total electrical failure. I was in the RH seat and shouted (no intercom obviously) 'I'll get the checklist out and squawk 7600'.... as the words came out of my mouth I realised....LH seat gave me that smile that says 'You're not going to live that one down.'

India Four Two
8th Jan 2015, 22:25
Passenger in a friend's C140, night flight into Springbank (CYBW), radio failed before we entered the zone, but nav lights on.

We joined downwind, no other traffic, no green light on final, so my friend went around. Next time, still no light so we landed, taxied to the tower and talked to the controller. "Sorry about that. We haven't used the light for such a long time. It fell apart when I picked it up!"

Pirke
9th Jan 2015, 00:44
I once departed from a controlled airport during PPL training when my headset failed just after reaching 500ft. ATC was in the middle of giving me instructions when it happened. I said to the instructor that my headset was malfunctioning, couldn't hear ATC, myself or my instructor. I asked if he could take over the radio while I kept the plane flying. He nodded, so I knew my mic was still working. After a turn into the direction I needed to go I went searching for the problem. Turned out to be a disconnected plug, the cable was wound around something and as I moved the plug was pulled out. It was a good learning experience, and I'm happy my initial reaction was to keep the plane flying, and also in the direction I needed to go :)

mary meagher
9th Jan 2015, 07:52
Yep, communicate is third on the list of priorities. And Thing shares the fact that he flew gliders all over the place not bothered a bit with no radio yak.

But its nice to have somebody to talk to if you have a problem. Coming back from Spain in my Supercub, the radio was getting worse and worse, so stopping at Les Mans, I telephoned LeTouquet and told them I had a radio receiver problem,and the nice lady controller said "No Problem! We shall give you ze green light!" and sure enough, I did a normal circuit, and on approach, there it was, bright and green, on the tower balcony.

When training for the instrument rating, the whole thing makes sense....if you have radio failure, you carry on (after setting the magic numbers on the transponder) and fly exactly the flight plan you filed, and the controllers are supposed to get all the airliners out of your way!

Only time I ever had radio problem while flying IFR in the soup, the hair on the back of my neck was at attention! while I tried to sort the problem, reminding myself that THIS was what all the training was about! just follow the plan, just follow your plan! but I found the problem, headset jack loose, and so radioed Houston, they had never missed me at all at all. " No problem, ma'am, just carry on heading 080."

phiggsbroadband
9th Jan 2015, 10:06
Was planning a trip to North Coates.
Took Off from Sleap, without any reply from the A/G Tower, then called Shawbury for a Matz transit, they replied saying they were only getting carrier wave and no audio. I thought shall I continue without the radio, but then remembered North Coates requires a co-ordinated flight through the Donna Nook Danger Area.
So made a quick circuit and landed back at Sleap, where the engineer found an unsoldered wire on the Mic socket. (The other fault, a u/s AI he couldn't fix.)

rarelyathome
9th Jan 2015, 11:01
Like Mad Jock, a call on the mobile to the tower made life very simple.

Capot
9th Jan 2015, 11:46
I've scanned the thread looking for someone to mention "look for a red/green light from the Tower" while on final without radio, which I guess might be the same as while on final and unable to call due to congestion.

You will of course have checked the approach visually for another aircraft ahead of you, or on a long final, before turning cross-wind, and again before turning on to final approach. Won't you? Or has that changed as well?

Am I absurdly out of touch with modern ATC systems? Do VCRs still have red and green lamps hanging ready for instant use if needed?

Edit; I just reread I42's post, which - sort - of asks the same question!

Another edit; ....and there are other posts mentioning red/green lights. But what's the definitive answer? Are they still required to be available - and used - in a VCR providing a full ATC service?

tecman
9th Jan 2015, 12:45
Recognizing that there are national differences, and not wishing to be critical, I'm nonetheless struggling with the idea of a Mayday call for an uncomplicated comms failure. Hard to see the 'grave and imminent danger requiring immediate assistance'. If you have enough electrical power left to talk to ATC a simple plain language advisory call may be enough or, for a more serious conflation of events, a pan-pan call.

There are grey areas of course. I was particularly impressed with the threshold applied by a young charter pilot here in Oz when a deranged passenger tried to take over a light twin. His pan-pan came through with a certain edge (apparently he was being beaten around the head) but did the job. Still, I think I might have been pushed to a Mayday in those circumstances.

Another suggestion we are given is to listen to destination airfield navaid audio channels, if available. ATC transmissions can be impressed on the VOR or NDB audio channel, although in the one Class D comms failure I've had the home-field NDB was out of service, so I never got to try it out. By the way, the failure was due to the frequency selector knob on my ancient Narco comms unit shattering, and being unable to grip the shafts of the rotary switch. I pressed on with a standard arrival, and watched for the green light from the tower. No drama, but I recall being surprised at how feeble the lantern was - not sure exactly what I was expecting!

foxmoth
9th Jan 2015, 13:47
not wishing to be critical, I'm nonetheless struggling with the idea of a Mayday call for an uncomplicated comms failure.
It may not be needed but I would rather someone do this than struggle unnecessarily.

taxistaxing
9th Jan 2015, 15:25
I'm nonetheless struggling with the idea of a Mayday call for an uncomplicated comms failure. Hard to see the 'grave and imminent danger requiring immediate assistance'.

But doesn't the question of when to declare an emergency depend on that particular pilot's individual assessment of their ability to handle situation they are in? E.g. As a ppl with no IR if I had a choice between either continuing VFR flight into IMC or declaring an emergency to get me onto the ground at a controlled field it would a no brainer to declare a mayday. An IR rated pilot in that same situation would simply shrug their shoulders and continue IMC.

A very inexperienced PPL (as 150 Driver said he was at the time) suffering radio failure who has never flown non radio could easily panic. This panic itself could then become the "grave imminent danger"... Ref the sad fatal accident at Southend a few years back where a student pilot was turned away from a final approach due to ILS traffic. The unfamiliarity of the situation confused/panicked him and he ended up stalling into the ground because he forgot he was in landing configuration.

On the basis of accidents like the above I would always err on the side of advising pilots to declare whatever they feel is right at the time. Sweat the details once you're safely on the ground!

mad_jock
9th Jan 2015, 17:17
It doesn't actually matter what you declare or don't in the UK .

The ATCO or other service can and will allocate an emergency response which they deem appropriate.

As soon as you mention you have a problem truth be told the whole shooting match is out of your hands be you declare pan or mayday or even don't declare at all and just mention that you have an issue.

The only way you can ensure you don't get met by trumpton on landing is by not saying a single thing if you do have a problem.

I would suggest though that if you have any feeling at all that you are uncomfortable just tell who ever your speaking to and it doesn't matter if its pan mayday or "I am unsure where I am"

Thankfully in the UK they really don't mind you having a problem. What they do mind about is if you don't say anything especially if its a navigation cockup and you start infringing controlled airspace.

mary meagher
9th Jan 2015, 19:39
If you have a problem when airborne, it is good to have somebody out there on your side who will help any way possible. Whether you say Pan Pan or Mayday, it means you have a problem; the size of the problem can very much depend on your experience/panic/circumstances, and the controller really wants to help with a happy outcome.

I'll never forget the helpful enroute Jacksonville controller, when I noticed, while flying over water abeam Tallahassee, that one of the Cessna 172 fuel
dials read full, the other read empty....which caused me to wander off track a bit while contemplating the problem. The controller asked if I had a problem, I said I might have a problem with fuel....
With a tone of complete helpful concern, downright enthusiasm, he came back to ask "Would you like to declare an emergency?" (that's Yank speak for a Mayday). Clearly he hoped I would, but had to disappoint him because I didn't feel in danger...yet. He did help me fly to the nearest handy airfield to refuel, and I did stop in the tower to say thank you.

Actually, people, it is always nice to visit the tower, and they don't mind, if you know when to chat and when to shut up.....

tecman
9th Jan 2015, 21:37
I would always endorse a pilot contacting ATC or area controllers to advise of an actual or developing problem, especially if it prevents violation of controlled airspace or a similar consequence. I'd be pretty sure that instructors around the world drum that message into students. The nature of the advice clearly relies on the judgement of the individual pilot and I take the point about pilot incapacitation due to e.g. panic as being a factor in itself.

In having a quick look for any national differences, I came across a UK controllers' emergency response guide (possibly slightly dated) at:

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/200.pdf

Having not thought much about the situation from the ATC end, I found it interesting reading.

Like Mary, I have found ATC helpful everywhere I've flown in the world. Many years ago, as a newly minted pre-GPS PPL, I found difficulty in positively fixing my position in the narrow Sydney VFR lanes, owing to low sun and severe haze. I definitely needed urgent help to avoid ILS approach paths etc, but in my judgement the situation did not fit mayday or pan needs. A plain language request for navigational assistance did the trick, with the only consequence being a phone call from CASA (or whatever they were then called) a few days later. In retrospect, the enquirer was more interested in my training and the (correct) decision to ask for help than in any particular actions on the day.

Perhaps a slight difference between Australia and the UK is the density of available response services. With the huge areas here, it's hard not to be aware of the potential opportunity costs involved in calling out the cavalry to a particular incident. Those fire engines and ambulances mobilized at a rural airport may be the only ones for hundreds of kilometres. If the situation demanded a mayday call, I wouldn't hesitate. But if there was the luxury of thinking time, I'd give it some serious thought.

glendalegoon
10th Jan 2015, 04:46
kudos to you for even knowing about flying triangles

but I don't think that is part of the routine now a days, last time I saw it was in a 1960 US AIM. And that was for IFR not VFR.

Fly the pattern and step on somebody else to request landing clearance...flash your landing light too ifyou really have lost com and look for a green light from the tower

you guys do things like that in europe don't you?

tommoutrie
10th Jan 2015, 09:22
No problem, ma'am, just carry on heading 080...

Sound like he was sending you on a direct track for England!

I found the lights at one airfield very hard to see. Why don't they use them laser pointers that everyone gets so excited about?

I had the opposite problem to the original poster when I was learning to fly. I had been gliding for some years and was very happy talking rubbish on the radio about lift and sink and tottie at the launch point but I shat myself every time I talked to any kind of controller. I doubt I would have noticed a radio failure for the first few years of my flying!

SidT
18th Jan 2015, 10:17
Had a radio failure whilst training with an insturcor to regain my licence at Southend...

Had been talking to approach and was given a Right Base approach onto 24 with a "call on RB" instruction. Made the call and heard nothing back... no other chatter on the radio.

My instructor told me to coniue flying the approach while he dealt with the radio issue. He continued to blind call and sqwarked 7600.

As I turned onto finals there was a "solid green" from the tower... so yes at least one modern VCR still has the lamps to hand! They had the fire truck on standby by the runway as a matter of course.

Once we landed and parked up we called the tower and they confirmed that they could hear us all the way and it was our receive that had packed up.

I have to say getting that solid green was a reassuring sight :)

magpienja
18th Jan 2015, 11:11
And if you cant get a word in edgeways and its at a critical point in the flight/approach just be rude and butt in as long as your not butting into an important call.

Just what I had to do when I ended up on short final recently with constant chatter and not able to make my final call and receive a landing clearance...I would have appreciated it if the controller had realised I would be wanting to make my final call...he did acknowledge but I was just about to have to go around.