Robinson R66 type rating course

[BlairS]

So can I ask the members here present for their thoughts on this.

I've just completed the first day of ground school for an R66 type Rating to add to my EASA PPL (H) licence. The organisation is a well known UK operator.

The course is EASA approved, and comprises 2 days ground school before any flying. The groundschool was quoted as £1495 for the 2 days but it now turns out that VAT has to be added so the actual cost is £1795.:=there are two of us taking the ground school, but the price is per person. Nice work if you can get it.

The course manual consists of an R66 Pilots Operating Handbook (ie just like the one that can be downloaded free from Robinson) and a folder that contains nothing but a few application forms- no course content, copies of slides, etc. When asked for copies of the course presentation materials, we were told these wouldn't be provided because they are proprietary to the training organisation who needed to protect their investment:=

Having undertaken numerous ratings and licenses, fixed wing and rotary in the uk and USA including the Robinson Helicopter Factory Safety Course, I'm very disappointed at the course cost and lack of course literature. And to find that the actual cost is 20% higher than quoted (verbally) adds to the dissapointment.

Am I being unrealistic in my expectations?

[Gordy]

Complete rip off---you could fly the factory for that.....

[HeliHenri]

Well, as you've not asked for a bill or a detailed estimate, maybe they assumed that you don't like paper based and you prefer oral transmission ... :E

Seriously, seems very expensive !
.

[fluffy5]

Sounds like a very expensive operating manual to me, and for that 2 day ground school and the cost and there is two of you, I would have simply given Dick Sandford a call, he would have done it cheaper for the two of you. That is if he was able to do so.

Fluffy

[G0ULI]

BlairS

The VAT element would normally be recovered by a commercial company and the course costs offset against tax liabilities on profits, so this is only an issue for private individuals who cannot offset these costs.

There is nothing to stop you taking physical notes during the course as an aide memoire, but the photographic content and layout of slides and other materials may well be copyright and subject to proprietory interests. I'm sure that a low resolution copy of the materials could be made available if the course provider cared enough!

I'm a little surprised that if you are spending that much money as an individual you didn't check more carefully exactly what would be provided and the total costs involved. Still, if you need the rating and are subject to time or travel constraints, I guess you have to pay what the market dictates. Seems pricey for what you say you are getting though.

[GipsyMagpie]

Similarly done over by a training company who charged similar amount per person (surprising charging scheme...if there had been eight of us it would still have been the same price per person). We mistakenly thought price was for course split between 2 of us. our mistake for not getting more detailed quote and ground school was admittedly excellent but not £2000 each excellent.

[Flying-dutch]

You write that you have done numerous ratings in the UK, then you should know that every (or almost every) organisation in the UK provides prices without VAT.
So even if only mentioned verbally, I would always have asked if VAT is included in that price.

[Hughes500]

This is obviously where my TRTO is going wrong as the ground school element is part of the whole course cost which is based on the flying rate of the aircraft so ground school effectively free !! Oh well
out of interest how much is the flying element ? As a comparison I charge £ 3750 PLUS vat for a 500 conversion ( 5 hour flying course plus skills test)

[Chris P Bacon]

The prices you quote seem realistic for what you are receiving and who is running the course. You have to take into account the cost this operator has had to invest in training material, licencing fee from the two OEM's (Robinson and Rolls Royce), the cost for the instructor to be approved and assessed plus all the EASA Part 147 time and cost.
There will aways be lower cost trainers who are not OEM approved, but at least where you are, you can guarantee the information you get is up to date and you can always go back to them for support, as you know they will still be there.

I would not hesitate recommending the company doing your training, and I have no connection.

Enjoy the course and enjoy the R66.

[feathering tickles]

There's no doubt that course notes are important for maintaining a proper level of ongoing skill/currency after the training course finishes.

There are now other alternatives within UK/Europe, here's one;

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=832061746837783

- Liverpool is promoting their 66 course on FB.

Handy for Easyjets/Ryanair connections for overseas clients too.

[TOT]

You can just imagine the scenario, You are keen to get one of the above Ratings. You get a quote for the training (lets just say 5 hours plus test) so based on current UK prices for the above types its going to be around £3500/£3800, then you get told OH BTW ground school costing £1500 as well!! There would be UPROAR!!

Now lets face facts here, its basically a R44 with an ALLISON ENGINE. ( and with respect before anyone starts being specific here I have 10,000+ hours on turbines and I fly the R66) .... £1500 + VAT for 2 days ground school!! is a total RIP OFF...
Bare in mind you are being ripped off by this company now, add that to the value of the R66 when it is time expired in 10 or 12 years time. If the R66 cost approx £550k now, 10/12 years down the line/ time expired, say its worth £100,000 (who knows??) that's a loss of £450k!!.Take into account the massive straight line depreciation over that period, suddenly the R66 does not look nearly as attractive....

OK we all know who the company is, but no one has printed their name. They may be the first or one of the first companies to be approved to carry out EASA Type Conversions on the R66 in the UK, but this fee is just not justified..

They are not the first company to try this. When I done my BELL 407 Rating ALAN MANN charged £1600 CASH for the ground school. There was 1 instructor and 4 Students in a portacabin for 2 days - that was £6400 in total!!.. We were given student packs containing extensive material and notes..But its fair to say the 407 is complex compared to a R66 !!!.
It done ALAN MANN a power of good, look where they are now!!!...

[Chris P Bacon]

I recently attended a OEM approved course with FlightSafety International in Paris. The cost of this course was £5,230 for 4 days (not including airfares, hotels, food etc)

Based on price, was I ripped off? No, I don't think so.

I look at the bigger picture including the investment they had made in the facility and their instructors, the fact I can call on them when I need to for additional help. The knowledge that they have direct access to the OEM, so if they do not know the answer, they can get it, or they can get me access to the correct people at the OEM. One of the other attendees had also done the same course with an alternative supplier and was amazed at the amount of IMPORTANT (his words) training which he had not previosly covered.

All OEM's have a high price if you want to work with them and this price just cannot be absorbed and not passed on down the line. And yes, there are many lower cost options for training, as there is in anything in life.

Judge the training by the end result. Did it meets your objectives and do you feel you benefitted by attending it?

Heliport. Thank you for your comments. If you wish to pm me, I will happily let you know who I am.

[Chris P Bacon]

My final thought on this subject is there's a vast difference between being expensive (or more expensive than assumed) and being "a rip off" (To exploit, swindle, cheat, or defraud).
I don't know the average cost for all 2 day ground schools, but market forces will determine if the "well known UK operator" has got the price right or wrong, for people that want an OEM certificate, as opposed to one which is just a good, but not issued/endorsed by the OEM's representative.

PS. I've today put 4 new Continental tyres on my car at £211 each, when I was offered similar Chinese brand ones at £120 each. You get what you pay for.

[paco]

2 days' worth of ground school, including colour notes? £795 per person plus VAT.

Phil

[GoodGrief]

Got typed on the AS350 recently. 20 hours of ground, €800 tax free, being commercial.

[nigelh]

Just fly on your FAA licence and pay nothing !! How can you possibly spend two days going from an R44 to R66 !! That is crazy when I would say a morning all in should do it ....

[claudia]

Nigel. Great idea and will work until April 2016. After that you are on your bicycle!!

[claudia]

TOT. Interesting post. Nearly £40,000 per year depreciation on an R66 is hardly economical flying as Robinson and some of their dealers infer. This is indeed born out by recent sales ie 3 year old 66s at £425k with very low hours. LOSING approx £120k ie --£40,000 per year. !!!! Then maintain it and deal with ADs SBs etc.-- not cheap flying i think. My 355 costs a fraction of this. Add a conversion course at this price and well....

[Hughes500]

Heliport

Wow if they were using a decent heli such as a 350b3 then fair enough but an r66 so my £ 3750 plus vat on a 500d that outperforms an r66 now is considerably cheaper as well, so why fly a 66 ???????

[HeliHenri]

so why fly a 66 ???????

Because of the sandwiches :}

[nigelh]

I don't think the EC130 or AS350 are comparable at all ... Maybe the EC120 or 206 . When the 505 comes out it will make the R66 look stupid re costs etc .
Personally I don't like any of the Robinson products and would fly a 480B , 206 or MD500 which are all far better and safer machines in my view and would all be significantly cheaper if you are only doing under 150 hrs a year . Even my A109 would be cheaper than the figures shown !!!!!

[NDPlume]

Re: the original posters type rating groundschool cost. If it's the school I am thinking of, they do seem to have previous form for overcharging people, and maybe now as they have nine UK bases, their overheads must be pretty high.

I had a hunch so checked.
It looks like their accounts for year end 2014 are overdue.
It also looks like they have lost their auditor too.
These are sometimes danger signs for the welfare of a company.
Can anyone shed any light on this? Any cause for concern?

[Jelico]

No idea about what is considered "Fair" in the UK but here in NZ the normal standard for type ratings is to pay an hourly rate for the Aircraft and then an hourly rate for the instructor(s) for both ground and flying time.

I did an R66 rating recently and it took a little over a morning including both ground instruction and the time in the air. I had about .5 in the 66 previously and had read the manual thoroughly but felt the type rating was fairly swift but comprehensive enough. 2 days just in ground school seems a lot especially if you have a bit of experience and are current in the 44.

[jymil]

Here's a breakdown of the cost in Switzerland (mountainflyers.ch) for comparison.


Ground course: 260 CHF (this price is of course for a course with a group of people, one full day)
Flight time: 1360 CHF /hr of actual flight time w/instructor, including 1 landing fee (-> 1225 CHF per rotor-turning hour if you assume 6min for startup/shutdown). Also, the instructors part of 150 CHF is not charged on the checkride flight.
FOCA examiner: 230 CHF
No VAT levied on training


So for 5hrs RTT training + 1hr RTT checkride, it would add up to:
260 + 5*1225 + 1075 + 230 = 7690 CHF
With the current exchange rate, this would correspond to 5.000 GBP.

[claudia]

Rip off conversions will not last much longer !!! .Very little UK sales if any since the great EASA approval deemed to be a saviour. Obviously everyone has wised up. Now at £600k a pop sales will surely be slow.