India`s Rafale looking shaky

[sandozer]

Maybe not a done deal says Indian Defence minister.

Rafale in storm clouds, Parrikar says IAF can make do with Sukhoi-30s | Business Standard News (http://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/rafale-in-storm-clouds-parrikar-says-iaf-can-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html)

[Rosevidney1]

Dealing with the bureaucratic mindset is challenging enough as it is but trading with the Indian version is NOT for the faint hearted!

[BEagle]

Usual Indian bureaucracy and brinkmanship....:rolleyes:

Hope they've priced the cost of all those Su-30 engine replacements.....:uhoh:

A rupee to a pinch of poo that this won't have been resolved by this time next year.

[Pure Pursuit]

There are many issues with the Indian Rafale deal. One of the biggest being the rate at which the French can deliver airframes. It would appear that they 'miscalculated' the number of Rafales that could be delivered per annum. Not a high enough rate to satisfy the Indians.

BAE are pushing Typhoon again however, I can't see it being a player until AESA is fitted and that's probably going to arrive too late.

[LowObservable]

Will Marcel step up to his obligations? If not, how will he win the heart of the Princess Iaf and her castle full of jewels? Or will the crude Russian Pavel win the day? What about that shy little Swedish blonde who was passed over so long ago, but has grown into a head-turner?

Tune in next week for another episode in the Bollywood romance, The Quest For MMRCA, starring more drama queens than we can fit on the credits roll.

[Stanwell]

BEagle,
I reckon you've got it right.
Froggy arrogance vs Indian bureaurcracy?
I'll go get my popcorn and a beer from the fridge.

[ShotOne]

I don't see it being resolved in a hurry; on a recent visit there we met some BAe engineers in the hotel. They had been there for four days and hadn't yet secured permits to allow them on the base to get to the Sea Harriers the Indian Navy wanted them to fix.

[AreOut]

after Mistral fiasco I wouldn't pay frenchies a single rupee before delivery

[peter we]

The fiasco was agreeing to supply an enemy state, intent on war, with military hardware in the first place.

Other articles point to the price of this deal rising over 20billion USD. Which is north of 150million per aircraft. For that amount the Indians expect their industry to be up to French technology levels with complete Technology transfer. Strikes me as a suicidal deal for the French

[Heathrow Harry]

Its bad either way - you don't sell them the technology but no-one else is buying your gear so the line closes in a few years anyway

OR

you sell them the technology, it takes them years to get up to speed and you make money on "upgrades" and "assistance"

the hope is you can get something else in place before they become competitors

[pr00ne]

peter we,

An enemy state?

How on earth do you work that out?

Even at the height of the Cold war there was no actual enemy, because there was no actual war.

[melmothtw]

NATO jets are routinely intercepting Russian bombers because they're our friends. Is that what you're saying pr00ne?

[fleigle]

Forgive my scepticism, but maybe the brown envelopes were not fat enough, or had too many strings attached.
:ooh::ooh::ooh:
f

[pr00ne]

melmothtw,

NATO jets are not 'intercepting' anything. They are formating on and identifying aircraft in international airspace that have not filed internationally recognised flight plans or squawking.

They would do this if they were Canadian, Latvian, Belgian or Nigerian, civil or military...

[melmothtw]

Of course they are pr00ne, and thanks for the lesson in Orwellian double-speak.

Don't always believe the line about them being in international airspace

NATO extends enhanced Baltic air policing until end of 2015 at least - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/47065/nato-extends-enhanced-baltic-air-policing-until-end-of-2015-at-least)

"Before 2012 there were no incursions into Estonia, in 2013 there was one, and in 2014 there have been six or seven so far."

They would do this if they were Canadian, Latvian, Belgian or Nigerian, civil or military...

"If they were...", but they're not, are they.

[KenV]

Even at the height of the Cold war there was no actual enemy, because there was no actual war.


Really? Tell that to the widows and children of all the guys who were killed by the "non-enemy" during the Cold War. I'd love to see your definition of an "actual war".

[Ian Corrigible]

Usual Indian bureaucracy
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-RI869_iasia_G_20120112083215.jpg

—Political & Economic Risk Consultancy Ltd. A graph rating bureaucracies in Asia. (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/01/13/indias-bureaucracy-a-nightmare/)

All of which explains the existence of Indian-specific spares price catalogs...

I/C

[Royalistflyer]

A lot of people in the west, particularly Americans and some English journalists seem not to understand ANYTHING about Russia today.

For a start - basic Russia 101: Russia is NOT a communist state.

Russia has an entirely different ideology. There is no incumbent communist party. But the Church is VERY influential and not at all interested in war at any scale.

Russia's President and Prime Minister are converted Christians - they regularly attend church (you could have seen Putin standing in the congregation of his local parish dressed in a cardigan caught on a telecast over Christmas).

Putin has to play hard ball because he wants his country (which unlike ours has lots of land borders) to be safe from attacks.

America has seriously stupid politicians who seem to want to prolong the long since finished cold war. They are egged on by arms companies who want income.

So Russia behaves in the same manner as we and the Americans do - sends Air Force aircraft wherever it wants - as its right.

Don't expect Russia to make stupid attacks on NATO countries because it would be pointless. Do expect Russia to reclaim its former sphere of influence which includes eastern Ukraine which historically was the original Russia.

I have a number of friends in Russia in universities, the Church and levels of government, and I do keep up with affairs there.

Oh and an interesting sidelight: The English had a small kingdom in the Crimea from around 1080 which had two cities - London and York. Archaeologists have recently uncovered parts of York. These were refugees from the Normans. Some 400 ships left England and headed to Constantinople. Others went overland to Kiev the Russian capital including King Harold's wife. We've been dealing with them a long time and we don't need to run after silly American politicians now.

[KenV]

We've been dealing with them a long time and we don't need to run after silly American politicians now.


I don't see too many "silly American Politicians" even aware of, never mind bothered by, these Russian airspace "incursions" of Europena airspace and the various Russian "provocations" in Europe. Many are pretty animated about what the Russians are (allegedly) doing in the eastern Ukraine, but that's standard party politics.

[peter we]

Russia has an entirely different ideology.

Yes, an Orthodox Jihad ism. They are in the process of a religious war against the West.

But the Church is VERY influential and not at all interested in war at any scale.


No quite. Putin is heavily influenced by Priests who are rabidly militaristic. They encourage Russians to take part in a holy war against the West, in Ukraine.

BBC News - The Russians fighting a 'holy war' in Ukraine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30518054)
Putin?s Orthodox Jihad | The XX Committee (http://20committee.com/2014/12/27/putins-orthodox-jihad/)

Yes, Russia isn't Communist, its closer in attitude to Germany in the 1930's. They believe the Russian Empire/USSR didn't lose against the West and they want a rematch, driven now by their Holy Roman Empire fantasy of divine destiny which will over come the the Devil (the USA).

Russia today is far worse than the Soviet Union because they are driven by religious delusions and a desire for revenge.

[Royalistflyer]

Ah yes the BBC that paragon of unbiased anti-Christian reporting from journalists who are frequently not English and not old enough to remember the Cold War. Glad you like relying on them for your opinions.

On the other hand I have first hand knowledge - which wouldn't count against the BBC-newspapers of course.

[Heathrow Harry]

royalist - are you suggesting the BBC only employ journo's over 40?

because anyone aged less than that won't really remember the Cold War at all...............

[KenV]

No quite. Putin is heavily influenced by Priests who are rabidly militaristic. They encourage Russians to take part in a holy war against the West, in Ukraine.

BBC News - The Russians fighting a 'holy war' in Ukraine (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30518054)
Putin?s Orthodox Jihad | The XX Committee (http://20committee.com/2014/12/27/putins-orthodox-jihad/)

Yes, Russia isn't Communist, its closer in attitude to Germany in the 1930's. They believe the Russian Empire/USSR didn't lose against the West and they want a rematch, driven now by their Holy Roman Empire fantasy of divine destiny which will over come the the Devil (the USA).

Russia today is far worse than the Soviet Union because they are driven by religious delusions and a desire for revenge.


Wow. I read both linked articles and there is no mention of priests (much less priests that are "rabidly militaristic") and no mention of Putin being "heavily influenced" by any priests. You appear to be inventing a strange back story that does not exist and that does not remotely comport with reality. One has to wonder what you motivations are for doing so.

And if you think Putin's unique and odd mix of KGB ideology with orthodox Christian religion is "far worse than the Soviet Union", you are amusingly deluded. Or perhaps just trolling.

[Heathrow Harry]

even J V Stalin wasn't above using priests when it suited him in WW2

[Whenurhappy]

Don't expect Russia to make stupid attacks on NATO countries because it would be pointless. Do expect Russia to reclaim its former sphere of influence which includes eastern Ukraine which historically was the original Russia.


Oh, that's alright then - to invade a sovereign country, stage a corrupt referendum, and to fund and supply 'rebels' in the Eastern Oblast of self-same sovereign country? And let's not forget the 'collateral' damage in such an adventure - such as the downing of a Malaysian airliner - and don't come back with tosh about it being shot down by the UKN AF!

On that basis, and using your logic, England would be well within its rights to occupy Normandy, Calais and Brittany on the basis of an historical connection and, err, 'sphere of influence'. How, on Earth, can the Russian invasion of Crimea be supported by State Practices and norms of International Law

[Ronald Reagan]

Whenurhappy, this land was Russian until the 1930s, in the case of Crimea until the 1950s. We are talking about events ie the 1950s that are till in living memory and the 1930s, just.
The land was given away by the unelected Soviet government without consulting the local population.
In the scheme of things Crimea being Russian does not matter to us, all of eastern Ukraine or Novorossiya, whatever one wants to call it going back to Russia also does not matter. If the people who live there or enough of them want it so be it. Besides as Maidan showed, if one group of people can rise up and overthrow their government with considerable western support (western politicians walking the streets with protestors and interfering in the internal affairs of Ukraine as they did, remember that!!!!!) then the people of the east can rise up to and say ''tough luck, you ousted the President we voted for by a big margin, you want to join the EU and walk away from Russia, then we will walk away from you''! If one group of people can do as they wish so can another. If Russia does not help them who else will. The western governments screamed loudly if Yanukovych tried to bring order to his country, yet now the new western puppets can do as they please against the people of the east.
All I can say is well done Russia for protecting the people of the Donbass as best as you possibly can and for liberating Crimea.

Besides do we really want to have to pay loads and loads to Kiev!!! What is in it for us!!!!! Leave Ukraine to stay a puppet of Moscow and funded by Moscow.
Our relationship with Moscow is far more important than worrying about Ukraine. We need to work with them on defeating real enemies, like the ones who carried out the terrible attacks in France during the past days who are a threat to us all.

[barnstormer1968]

Ronald, at last you are starting to make sense IMHO.
What are Russia doing to track down the Russians who used a Russian SAM to shoot down the unarmed civilian Malayan airliner. The world needs to be protected from murdering terrorists like that......just as you rightly say :)

[Ronald Reagan]

Regarding terrorism your right. One needs to look at the actions of Washington in Afghanistan in the 1980s with its support for terrorists, also the removal of the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq creating a power vacuum and allowing terrorists to thrive, the removal of Gaddafi in Libya and the open support of terrorists with NATO supporting them all the way and then the original plans for Syria with the west supporting terrorists and desperate to remove the Assad regime. Strange old world isn't it, with Gaddafi and Assad fighting terrorists but the western governments supporting terrorists against them.


As for Ukraine and the very tragic events regarding the airliner, it appears to have been an accident of war. Though the full truth remains unknown. Kiev should have closed the airspace and Washington should not have launched its coup in Kiev pushing Ukraine into civil war. If there had been no coup in Kiev then there would be no civil war and Ukraine would be at peace today with Yanukovych having to run for office in the next few months. You know, waiting for an election, the way a change of government normally takes place!

[Heathrow Harry]

"Oh, that's alright then - to invade a sovereign country, stage a corrupt referendum, and to fund and supply 'rebels' i"

of course WE'VE never done anything like that , ever......... :=:=