Luftwaffe F104 NCO PIlots

[PapaDolmio]

I picked up an excellent book in my local discount book store yesterday 'German Starfighters' by Klaus Kropf and was quite surprised to see that the Luftwaffe had NCO pilots flying F104 until at least 1973.
I'd be interested to learn a bit more about this if anyone knows anything? How many, when and why they stopped flying FJ etc....

Mods: Feel free to move to AHN if more appropriate.

[Dark Helmet]

I think that Denmark also used to have SNCO F104 pilots. I seem to recall seeing them at Aalborg once. I assumed they were not allowed to play with the F16s and were all retired along with the F104.

[PapaDolmio]

I guess thats probably the case, I assumed either rightly or wrongly that having a nuclear strike role may have had something to do with it like the RAF, although I'm not sure when the Luftwaffe picked up that role.

Judging by the book it appears the Marineflieger did not have NCO pilots, just the Luftwaffe.

I remember a grizzled old Warrant Officer equivalent turning up at Cottesmore once in a Do28 and assumed he was ex helicopters, maybe not?

[gzornenplatz]

I know the Royal Netherlands Air Force had at least one NCO F104 pilot. I think he was a sort of Master pilot equivalent and was also the Dutch 500cc motorbike champion. Quite a character.

[langleybaston]

From an historical perspective, the German armed forces made do with fewer commissioned officers and more senior NCO/WO ranks.

This was particularly so in their army of 1914-18, whereby the grotesque casualty rates of officers in the BEF were not replicated by their opponents .... there simply were not so many in the front line.

[glad rag]

OT.

There was a cloggy WO F-16 pilot, who flew down the wire [fence] of the Northern HAS site at LEU, as an intro when their Sqdn arrived [in line abreast] for an mini-exchange.
OK at of below fence height, on past the COC[k] to the inevitable horror of the tower, the next recipients ....


:D

[GeeRam]

Luftwaffe F104 NCO PIlots
I picked up an excellent book in my local discount book store yesterday 'German Starfighters' by Klaus Kropf and was quite surprised to see that the Luftwaffe had NCO pilots flying F104 until at least 1973.
I'd be interested to learn a bit more about this if anyone knows anything? How many

I can vaguely remember something that about a third of Luftwaffe F-104 pilots were NCO's.

Can't remember where from though :confused:
Might have even been part of a talk I attended given by Gunter Rall many years ago, when he was talking about the F-104 in Luftwaffe.

[RetiredF4]

The German "Bundeswehr" was implemented 1955 from scratch. Only few offficers and NCO's had served before in Hitlers forces, but most were just newly recruited civilians. Payment was not very attractive in comparison to other civil jobs, but more money was not available. It was normal at the beginning of the Luftwafffe that most pilots were NCO's. About 10 years later a program was started to allow NCO's serving in specialized tasks to reach officer ranks, as it was getting more and more difficult to keep those highly qualified soldiers in the forces.

[BBadanov]

And when the Germans started again in 1955, a lot of their instructors were RAF.

[GeeRam]

And when the Germans started again in 1955, a lot of their instructors were RAF.

Indeed. Among notable ex-Luftwaffe 'aces' that undertook refresher basic flight training with the RAF were 197 victory 'ace' Walter Kuprinski and 301 victory 'ace' Gerhard Barkorn. Both doing their courses at No.3 FTS, RAF Feltwell in 1956.

[sharpend]

I was on QRA in 1969/70 at Wildenrath when a NCO piloting a F104 (on his first night solo in the FRG) got caught out by bad weather at Jever and diverted to Wildenrath. The weather was terrible and it was dark. He touched down at about 250 knots, half way up the wrong runway, made a neat hole in the barrier and subsequently punched out. The boys took him to the Officers' Mess and were bollocked for doing so by a senior officer from Handbrake House.

After all, he was only a NCO :ugh:

[GeeRam]

I was on QRA in 1969/70 at Wildenrath when a NCO piloting a F104 (on his first night solo in the FRG) got caught out by bad weather at Jever and diverted to Wildenrath. The weather was terrible and it was dark. He touched down at about 250 knots, half way up the wrong runway, made a neat hole in the barrier and subsequently punched out.

Fw Karl-Heinz Aschenberg.



He was very lucky he was flying a 104G equipped with the GQ-7A MB seat with 0-0 capability. The German 104 fleet had only started being retro-fitted with this seat in mid 68-ish, and by the time of this ejection, I don't think all the fleet had been completed, as there were later ejections from 104's that were not with a GQ-7A seat.

[PapaDolmio]

The German "Bundeswehr" was implemented 1955 from scratch. Only few offficers and NCO's had served before in Hitlers forces, but most were just newly recruited civilians. Payment was not very attractive in comparison to other civil jobs, but more money was not available. It was normal at the beginning of the Luftwafffe that most pilots were NCO's. About 10 years later a program was started to allow NCO's serving in specialized tasks to reach officer ranks, as it was getting more and more difficult to keep those highly qualified soldiers in the forces.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I assume they flew the full range of missions including nuclear strike- I assume the F104 had this mission from fairly early on? (One of the reasons the RAF got rid of NCO pilots was because it was not acceptable for an NCO to be in charge of an aircraft thus equipped).

[DC10RealMan]

What was the RAF rationale for not allowing NCO pilots as distinct from Officer pilots to fly nuclear armed aircraft?

[RetiredF4]

PapaDolmio
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I assume they flew the full range of missions including nuclear strike- I assume the F104 had this mission from fairly early on? (One of the reasons the RAF got rid of NCO pilots was because it was not acceptable for an NCO to be in charge of an aircraft thus equipped).

It had nothing to do with the mission profile at all or with the aircraft type.
The nuclear strike amunition was not under control of the Luftwaffe. Whatever the command structures in charge of this special amunition would have decided concerning it's implementation we gladly never found out.

Karl-Heinz Aschenberg was course 69-03 at Sheppard and graduated T-38 30th october 1968. At the time of the crash 21.04.1970 he was assigned to 1. Staffel JG 71 Richthofen at Wittmund AFB and had his first solo flight done month before. When I met him 1977 he was flying F-4F in the rank of a captain. I lost track of him when he went to Sheppard AFB as instructor 1983.

[PapaDolmio]

Interesting stuff Gents, many thanks.

[thing]

Pretty sure (stand to be corrected) that the reason pilots and navs had to be commissioned officers was that the nukes were American and their rules state that an aircraft captain with nukes on board had to be an officer.

I seem to remember there being Danish NCO F16 pilots when I was at Binbrook mid eighties.

There were certainly a lot of Master Pilots around when I joined up in '74 plus lots of other NCO single wingers still in from the war.

My Dad was in Hamburg just after the war when a lot of aircrew were awaiting demob. He ran an RAF motor pool and he always thought it was sad that he had decorated NCO aircrew doing menial jobs for him while they waited for civvy street. Don't know what officer aircrew awaiting demob got up to.

Edit: Just as an aside, Erich Hartmann, the top scoring ace of all time resigned from the Luftwaffe over his opposition to the F104.

[Fareastdriver]

The V force Valiants used to have Flt.Sgt. or Master Signallers acting as AEOs up to about 1963.

[5aday]

Thing - I was shown Erich Hartman's (and his wife's) grave in Weil im Schönbuch near Stuttgart. His house still stands in the same village.The headstone depicts a large bird sheltering a smaller bird under it's left wing.
All very appropriate but it also attracts hoards of 'spotters' during the summer months simply because of who he was and what he did.

[5aday]

in 1963, I recall my father, as a M/Pilot, was posted from Station Flight at Gutersloh to Wittering for Victor OCU and then had to return to Gutersloh unnacompanied and resume Station Flight duties on the T7. (I believe something happened with his original replacement in one of the T7s in a place called Marienfeld)
When he returned to Wittering I think the NCO pilot / Blue Steel thing had kicked off(if it hadn't already ) and having been on the strength once they kept him for a short while until he angled for something more up his own street.
He went to Lindholme on NBS ( we lived reasonably close to Lindholme in the Lincoln area) and I often used to hear him on the Wainfleet range when I was an airman in ATC at Marham. Then he jumped ship with a golden bowler and joined SOAF. By then I was crew on a 203 sqn Nimrod and he used bring a SOAF aeroplane down from Bait to Masirah and we could meet up over a bottle or two of Champers.

[exhorder]

There were a few reasons for NCOs not being allowed to pilot jet airplanes, one of them being the salary issue. I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined education, to be deemed unfit to operate the increasingly complex weapons systems.

We have still recruited NCO helicopter pilots for some time, though. Indeed, there is something called "Fachdienstoffizier" in the German military, roughly translated "specialist officer", who are in effect NCOs with some extra training and who are still being recruited as pilots for helicopters and transport aircraft. The highest rank they can obtain is captain.

[thing]

I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined education,

Oh boy, stand by for incoming!!:)

[kaitakbowler]

As this thread has drifted (a little) into Non Commissioned RAF pilots, ISTR there was at least one Master Pilot on 1574 Flt. in 1966 at Changi, Gerry S, a true gent. I also recall a Master Pilot as test pilot at St Athan in the late 60's.

So when did the last Non Commissioned pilot cease flying in the RAF?

PM

[thing]

I believe casting my remaining memory cells back that it was a Wessex instructor back in 1984. Can't remember his name now but he had a bit of a rep for being a no nonsense type of guy...:). Master Pilots were still around after that date obviously but not flying. There was one in the sim at Binbrook when I was there mid 80's.

[RetiredF4]

exhorder
There were a few reasons for NCOs not being allowed to pilot jet airplanes, one of them being the salary issue. I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined their education, to be deemed unfit to operate the increasingly complex weapons systems.

Oh boy, you got that one really stuffed up. I've learned nothing useful for flying on officers school or on the staff officers course. The problems with the F 104 had not much to do with the guy in the pointy end.

[phil9560]

I detected a hint of irony in the 'less refined' line.:D

[PapaDolmio]

[quote] exhorder

Oh boy, you got that one really stuffed up. I've learned nothing useful for flying on officers school or on the staff officers course. The problems with the F 104 had not much to do with the guy in the pointy end.

I had a read through the Roll of Honour in the book tonight and counted 14 NCO pilots killed flying the F104 out of 116 fatalities listed, so I guess that blows that theory! Not that rank held lessens the individual tragedy behind each story.

[thing]

When you look at the percentage loss rate it compared favourably with other contemporary aircraft; the Lightning I believe had a larger percentage loss than the 104G. Best (or worst)attrition rate I've ever seen is the Harrier, something like 50% throughout all marks.

[phil9560]

Why did people call it the F104 'Widow maker'?

Silly question I suppose.

[A and C]

I think this was because despite the higher airframe loss rate than the Lightning the Early F104 had a much higher fatality rate due to a poor crew escape system.

I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.

[GeeRam]

Widow maker ?
I think this was because despite the higher airframe loss rate than the Lightning the Early F104 had a much higher fatality rate due to a poor crew escape system.

I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.

I believe it was Gunther Rall that was the prime instigator of the change to the MB seat system.


Germany didn't have the worst loss record of the 104 operators by any means, as a percentage, Canada had a much worse 104 loss rate IIRC, around 45% compared to 30-31% for the Germans and Dutch, and about 37% loss rate for the Belgians and Italians.

[phil9560]

Those loss rate figures are incredible.Would be unsustainable now.

[thing]

Phil: if you want jaw dropping have a look at the Meteor loss rates for the RAF in the 50's.

890 Meteors lost, 450 pilots killed.

[Sop_Monkey]

Bit of 104 nostalgia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOsefneZbkU

[phil9560]

Thing-those figures are an illustration of how our acceptance of attrition of men and machines have altered aren't they?

Today whole fleets/types would be grounded,reasessed and/or cancelled on those grounds.

Exigencies of the times?

And they called it the 'Meatbox' for several good reasons!!

[thing]

Quite correct Phil. It was just after the war and I guess it was accepted that men and machines would be lost because they always had been. Culture of the times really. I'm sure that given the same aircraft and todays thinking and training that only a handful of pilots would have died.

Your whole fleet being grounded made me chuckle, I doubt whether the whole of NATO has 890 fighters these days!

[phil9560]

Not sure it was training.It was the aircraft.Early days etc.Going backwards to go forwards is the callous way to put it.But so many crew bought the farm bless em.

Although,as we agree, it wouldn't happen today.

[exhorder]

@RetiredF4: This is most certainly not my personal belief. However, the issue is mentioned in quite a few good books dealing with the Luftwaffe's early years. I wasn't even born back then, making these my only source for this discussion.

Re early Mach 2 fighter attrition rates: France, Australia and Belgium had similar figures for their respective Mirage III/V fleets.

[EngAl]

Further to GeeRam's figures on loss rates, "Bugs" Bendell in his book Never in Anger gives a slightly different slant with his comment about fatalities:


"In fact the F-104’s loss rate was comparable to many other single-engined fast jet aircraft; the difference was, a far greater proportion of F-104 accidents were fatal. Not so with the Canadians who took the realistic view that, if the engine quits at low level you pull up, converting speed to altitude, and you eject."

[parabellum]

I remember my Chipmunk instructor in the Army was an ex RAF Meteor pilot and he said many, (if not most), of the fatalities occurred during practice asymmetric training, at low level, on finals? Must be some ex Meteor pilots still around?

[charlyas47]

Hi,
Just Fond the Website and Registers today.
My Name is charlyAs and I was am the F-104 G Pilot of the accident St Wildenrath, Dates 19. April 1970.
The guys(fire Department, Medical personel, Harrier and other Pilots) werde nicke and Police to me during that Night and next days - despite being an NCO at that Time.

The other Aspect NCO Pilot: one reason Among Others to make all Pilots OFFICERS was the conversion from F -104 Wings to the Phantom F-4.
NCO in the Front as Pilot in Command and a Colonel in the back Seat as WSO was not desired.

Well anyway, I retired in 2005 with about 5000 h flying time - not bad for a fighter pilot at a fighter wing - as a LtCol after serving the last 6 years as the Referent for Flight Safety ( pilot function for all military German services) for the chief of the German Air Force at Bonn DOD.

Take care,
CharlyAs