St Georges chapel - RAF Biggin Hill

[Tiger_mate]

St. George's RAF Chapel of Remembrance Biggin Hill is scheduled for closure

Responsible department: Ministry of Defence

By March 2016,the Royal Air Force/Ministry of Defence are withdrawing all support from the Chapel. If no one or group takes on the responsibility of this magnificent Memorial Chapel, it will be closed without access to the public or church services.

This Chapel was built as a Memorial to Aircrew, who had their lives taken in World War ll, they fought and they died. We, today, have the freedom to forget.

How many people stated in November " We will remember them " yet words cost nothing and actions appear unaffordable.

Petition
Please Don't Close St. George's RAF Chapel of Remembrance Biggin Hill - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/73191)

[newt]

Signed just now! Surely Jock Stirrup could sort this in a jiffy? Why not petition him in the House of Lords!:ok:

[Tiger_mate]

2015 is the 75th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. This could end up as the mother of all blunders by the bean counters at MoD. I hope it does!

[FantomZorbin]

DCO
FantomZorbin

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Ditto........

[johnfairr]

Signed #334

What idiot even thought this was a "good idea" to save money . . . . ?? :mad::mad:

[treadigraph]

Signed and will pass on.

[Exascot]

:mad: outrageous. Signed.

[clunckdriver]

Hard to belive this would even be considered!

[Stevie B]

Signed and forwarded to colleagues.

[popstar]

Have signed and shared on FB (it has it's uses!).

[BEagle]

Responsible department: Ministry of Defence

That's an oxymoron if ever there was one!

Oh - and DCO!

[CoffmanStarter]

Signed ... I sincerely hope this ePetition is able to "make a difference" ...

[Molemot]

Is nothing sacred?? Petition signed.

[air pig]

Signed and passed on.

[ZH875]

Signed and spread the word.

[Bob Wyer]

Signed and passed on.

[LOMCEVAK]

Signed. How sad it is that within the Royal Air Force and MoD there is so little soul, pride and gratitude towards those who saved us 75 years ago. WE will remember them.

[Robert Cooper]

Signed and passed on.

Bob C :ok:

[Wander00]

And me - I am wholly ashamed and disgusted by this proposal

[Out Of Trim]

Signed.........

There is saving money; However, abandoning our National Heritage and forgetting the Few!

A Disgusting Decision..

:rolleyes:

[strake]

Signed. I really wish that I was capable of properly putting into words the sadness and despair I feel when I hear about these decisions by faceless bureaucrats.

[lowlypax]

Signed. Appalled this have even been considered.

[Lima Juliet]

691 and counting...

[Lima Juliet]

This must be preserved in the South of England as a permanent memorial - surely if the Quarters are still being used at Biggin then this should remain in MoD hands?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/St_George’s_Chapel_of_Remembrance%2C_Biggin_Hill%2C_interior .JPG/640px-St_George’s_Chapel_of_Remembrance%2C_Biggin_Hill%2C_interior .JPG

This last picture is my lasting memory of RAF Biggin Hill when I went for Officers' amd Aircrew Selection over a quarter of a century ago. I felt immensely proud to be joining the RAF and this sight re-enforced this view - much more so than the horrid Cranditz! :yuk:

http://hidden-london.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Biggin-Hill-St-Georges-and-Spitfire.png

Yes, there was a real Spitty and Hurribox on the gate, back then. But hey, I can live with the new plastic ones.

LJ

Edit. This is how I remember the place:

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/places/raf_biggin_hill.jpg

[NutLoose]

To clarify:

The MOD state that '....continued support of the Chapel would be an inappropriate use of Defence resources and intend to relinquish ownership including the removal of administrative and ecclesiastical support by March 2016.

Work is underway to identify a new owner...it may be the case that the site is transferred to an appropriate new owner and not appear on the open market.'

The MOD have also met with the local Chaplaincy Council to discuss the closure and are sensitive to the fact that a number of cremated remains are interred within the site.

Meanwhile, a spokesperson for the London Borough of Bromley has told 'Britain at War' :

'Biggin Hill has a rich heritage and is internationally recognised for the crucial role it played in the Battle of Britain during World War II. Bromley Council is keen to conserve, promote and engage people in Biggin Hill’s heritage. Therefore, the Council is currently talking to a range of stakeholders to investigate the viability of opening a new heritage centre at Biggin Hill, which could complement the Chapel’s visitor offering. This feasibility work is on-going, and no decisions have yet been taken'

That's from Andy the editor of the Britain at War magazine that ran an article about it this month... For more see

Biggin Hill RAF memorial chapel under threat (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133278-Biggin-Hill-RAF-memorial-chapel-under-threat)

[glad rag]

Aye.







hope this does some good.

[ExAscoteer]

Signed also.

[jete]

908 and rising!:

[Tiger_mate]

It was 300 this morning. Now 914 and climbing; the cat is out the bag now and with any luck before the blunties return to work it will be on the Defence & Armed Forces Ministers in-trays. There are some things that simply should never happen regardless of cost, and the memories (and lessons learned) of WWII feature highly on that list.

"We will remember them"

[ACW599]

Signed and forwarded.

[TooBlunt]

I have been a long time lurker but not felt the need to comment. However, petition signed and forwarded

[gsxrww]

signed and passed on

[VictorSR]

Remember this from my Test in Advance in 1963 - awesome at the time because of what it represented. Full Aircrew Selection 2 years later. Nothing has changed

[Yozzer]

It will be 1300 before 2015. If everybodys partner also signs, the resultant 2000 is I understand enough,

[BBadanov]

Could not sign !!!


You must be a Brit citizen or resident! Unfair...

[NutLoose]

I suppose with the reduction of people going through Cranwell they could farm out the spare rooms on a B and B basis, thus saving monies too..

:ugh:

[baffman]

Signed earlier.

Please Don't Close St. George's RAF Chapel of Remembrance Biggin Hill - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/73191)

[Haraka]

Signed.In sheer disbelief.
Went through OASC there nearly 50 years ago, a thoroughly enjoyable experience.
All part of the destruction of our heritage and our right to be considered. Although I continue to pay U.K. taxes on my pension ( "National " part frozen of course), I am now disenfranchised,courtesy of Phony Tony, being an Ex-Pat.

So what chance do we have to commemorate those who died for our once precious rights ?

[expatfrance]

Signed, number 1295 to do so.

[bosnich71]

1327 ........

[Tiger_mate]

What are e-petitions?

e-petitions are an easy, personal way for you to influence government and Parliament in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in the House of Commons. You can find more information about how the House of Commons deals with e-petitions on the Backbench Business Committee website This link opens in a new window.

Excellent start, but we are only 1% towards target. We need to spread this like wildfire and get the 100,000 signatures. Where are the journos when you need them?

[StrathmayStacker]

Just signed as number 1363.

.......the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[DCThumb]

Signed and Facebook shared - a first for me!!! #1371

[GeeRam]

Disgusted....


and signed.

[Lima Juliet]

1670 now at 1400hrs on 1 Jan 15 - pretty good going for a petition started 2 days ago! :ok:

http://www.bigginhill.co.uk/images/spitfire2.jpg

Just need some more enthusiasts to join the 'outrage bus'...

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

A little bit outraged by this as well:

RAF memorials given £400000 in George Osborne's Autumn Statement | Politics | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/542940/RAF-memorials-400000-George-Osborne-Autumn-Statement)

It seems that the Chancellor has kindly gifted £400,000 in his Autumn Statement solely for RAF memorials. Why should this be spent on new ones like the planned Bomber Command abomination in Lincoln when something so historically important and relevant as St George's should be potentially sidelined? Bomber Command have their superb new memorial in London and the Cathedral in Lincoln - why can't Fighter Command have St George's and their fine memorial on the Embankment? It smacks of mis-management by the various heritage committees? :confused:

LJ

PS. Up to 1736 signatures by 1510hrs now :-)

[Bigbux]

signed and circulated on FB - no 1736

[The B Word]

TM

"Excellent start, but we are only 1% towards target. We need to spread this like wildfire and get the 100,000 signatures. Where are the journos when you need them?"

If we get 10,000 signatures then the Government Dept must provide a response - so we are about 18% there after 2 days. Keep the faith, brother! :ok:

The B Word

[trap one]

And spreading the word.

[The Oberon]

Signed and passed on.

LJ, nicked a couple of your photos for publicity on other forums.

[golf 8 delta]

2135,

Spreading the word.

[tmmorris]

2153

If it's still running I'll get my cadets on the case next week...

[gooneydog]

Signed

RA

[brokenlink]

2347 and counting.

Cannot believe that some numpty has actually agreed to this.
E-mail to my MP outbound.

[Coochycool]

2403 now

Thanks for bringing it to attention

Outrageous situ

[iRaven]

The Chapel, the DHE Quarters and 2427 Sqn Air Trg Corps are all still on the RAF Biggin Hill site - the Cadets and ATC share the same piece of real estate. Link here bigginaircadets.co.uk (http://www.bigginaircadets.co.uk). So unless they are going to can 2427 Sqn ATC as well, I can't see any real savings to be made.

Surely, it makes sense to keep the RAF enclave? There are so many other areas of real estate across DIO's portfolio that could be sold off - some of which could fund a trust to guarantee the Chapel's future.

Not impressed by this at all and neither are 2,411 others!!! I also expect that Red 10 is pretty peeved as well!

iRaven

[dmussen]

DCO. Shall inform all those I can remember. :*

[ricardian]

Now well over 3,500

[k3k3]

3769 at 1651Z.

[Tiger_mate]

4326 and many persons emailing their MPs. The message is out there with almost universal outrage. I have come across a single objector who based said objection because it was a 'church'.

Need to keep the ball rolling, but the momentum at this time is fantastic. Thank you to everybody who has supported this. It has been an awesome response.

[golamv]

Signed.
We just cannot let our history and heritage disappear.
This place should be preserved as a memorial to all of those who served our country.

[CISTRS]

4,924

Signed. Unbelieveable that this is necessary.

Also put the petition on E-Goat.

[BEagle]

Past the 5000 mark now - well done, everyone!

[newt]

Fantastic response guys! A very senior wheel I messaged will be asking questions in the MOD next week!

Anyone got contact details for Sir Jock? In his position he should be able to sort it out!:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Excellent coverage on BBC South East News last night :ok:

[huge72]

Signed 5020.

[johnmarkcunningham]

Fully support the effort to keep this wonderful chapel open, have signed the petition and circulated it to friends.

But we must not let outrage overtop the need for clear thinking. If MOD fail to close the chapel in 2016, they will try again in 2017, and again the following year, and so on. It is the way they work. It is their job. So the real question is therefore whether MOD is the right guardian/owner of the chapel in perpetuity. I was interested, for example, in the reported views of Bromley Council, which seemed positive, about talking to other stakeholders.

I would like to see English Heritage (EH) and/or the National Trust (NT) approached to consider taking responsibility for the chapel. Both run properties nearby - EH run Charles Darwin's house Down House just across the airfield, and of course NT run Chartwell a few miles south. Both would bring professional management, investment and repair where needed, and well run volunteer schemes to man the property if needed. And probably an increase in visitors - not too many at present.

Perfectly proper to be cross with MOD, but I don't think they represent the future for the chapel

[4mastacker]

Signed 5462 plus an e-mail to my MP.

[lightbluefootprint]

6552 now.
Signed and posted on social media.

[ricardian]

Just short of 7,000 at 1030pm

[Sand4Gold]

Signed - it would be helpful if someone (a senior ppruner maybe?) could consider drafting an appropriate pithy letter that many of us could use to forward to our respective MPs - I simply do not have the in depth historical insight - re this church - coming from the Southern Hemisphere; I know, Google is my friend - a suggestion to maybe bounce this into Westminster more effectively?

[The Oberon]

7357 and counting.

[FantomZorbin]

Just a thought ... would it be feasible to administer the chapel on the same, or joint, basis as Runnymede thereby keeping it in perpetuity?

[Bismark]

Is the RAF community becoming obsessed with memorials as the Service approaches its 100th birthday. Why suddenly the obsession with Bomber Command memorials? I understand the need to remember and the statue in Green Park is wonderful ( but did the overall memorial need to be so big?).

The chapel at Biggin should be run as a charity, not publicly funded. Perhaps if all those signing the petition donate £10 per month the costs could be covered easily. Don't forget there is a BoB chapel at Westminster Abbey where an annual service is held. You also have St Clement Danes as the RAF Memorial Church, do the other Services have such exclusive churches etc?

Look outwards not in towards yourselves. There is a risk of becoming self-obsessed.

[Wander00]

Just a thought, one-off grant from the Lottery Fund, and then maintained by the RAF Benevolent Fund?

[newt]

Bismarck! All the Services have memorials! Some government funded, others run by trusts! The Navy has just agreed £25 million to be spent on HMS Victory from MOD funds!

We are not obsessed but trying to preserve a memorial which for a change, really means something! It's near to where the B of B was actually fought and is already visited by 12000 people a year! As things stand, it may end up the only part of Biggin Hill that survives!

I shall leave it to others to tell you what they think of you and your post!:ugh:

[Vendee]

I shall leave it to others to tell you what they think of you and your post!:ugh:Well as you ask, I welcome his post. He makes some good points and he shouldn't be berated for taking a different point of view.

[Tiger_mate]

That 'Bismark' can make a reasoned argument in the English language is pretty much what is being commemorated


Saint George's Royal Air Force Chapel of Remembrance Biggin Hill


The last RAF unit left Biggin Hill in October 1992 when the Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre moved to RAF Cranwell. Today, the RAF's 75 year tenure at Biggin Hill and the 454 allied aircrew who were killed during WW2 while operating from the Biggin Hill Sector are commemorated in St George's Royal Air Force Chapel of Remembrance.

The Chapel, which is an active church, is situated on the Main Road (A233) north of Biggin Hill village. The entrance is flanked by full-scale replicas of a Hurricane and a Spitfire.

It was built and dedicated in 1951, replacing the first station church made in 1943 from 3 wartime huts and destroyed by fire in 1946. The present Chapel retains something of the internal appearance of the original church, and has an atmosphere of great tranquility and peace, but it is of course more ornately furnished and has exceptionally fine stained glass windows, designed by Hugh Easton, as well as a number of other interesting artefacts.

Some 12000 people visit the chapel each year, and in addition to regular weekly services, special commemorative services are held on Battle of Britain Sunday and Remembrance Sunday.

The Chapel is open daily always from 1100 to 1600 but these hours are extended in summer, please check with the curators office if you want to visit outside this period.

It is probably fair to say that Biggin Hill remains to spiritual home of all things Royal Air Force, in that it represents our 'finest hour'. There are other equally worthy locations such as Tangmere or West Malling, but in 1951 Biggin Hill was chosen. OASC and the military significance of the unit itself in the 21st century may have gone, but much can be gained in the future from maintaining links with the past.

[Capetonian]

Signed and passed on to several interested parties.

This may get a bit more publicity since it is mentioned in the Daily Wail (albeit spelt as Biggen Hill.)

[Bismark]

Bismarck! All the Services have memorials! Some government funded, others run by trusts! The Navy has just agreed £25 million to be spent on HMS Victory from MOD funds!

I am not sure the Government does fund memorials? Most memorials are set up by public subscription. Re VICTORY, I think this represents a final, one-off, payment as the ship has now been passed to a trust to run and maintain.

We are not obsessed but trying to preserve a memorial which for a change, really means something! It's near to where the B of B was actually fought and is already visited by 12000 people a year! As things stand, it may end up the only part of Biggin Hill that survives!

Exactly, that is why all of your efforts should be geared to setting up a trust to run the chapel, not expect MOD to fund it ad infinitum.

[Tiger_mate]

Exactly, that is why all of your efforts should be geared to setting up a trust to run the chapel, not expect MOD to fund it ad infinitum.

In British culture; it is the 'family' who purchase the gravestone and maintain the grave until such time as nobody cares anymore. Clearly a lot of people are not prepared to forget the events of WWII, and nor should they be expected to.

The 'family' on this occasion are the Government whose predessesors declared war.

[Lima Juliet]

Bismark

I get some of what you are saying and if the Chapel passes on to be funded by a trust overseen by the RAF/MOD (like VICTORY will) then I don't have a problem. It is the notion of it being possibly 'gifted' for someone else to look after that's the issue - it would be effectively 'ditched' to Biggin Hill Airport Ltd in the most likely scenario at present. As we know, commercial companies, however well intentioned, have good and bad times and I suspect the Chapel wouldn't fare to well in the bad times!

Look at the petition statement:

By March 2016,the Royal Air Force/Ministry of Defence are withdrawing all support from the Chapel. If no one or group takes on the responsibility of this magnificent Memorial Chapel, it will be closed without access to the public or church services.


It is the threat of total withdrawal of support of what lies on the last RAF enclave of the site that is the problem (that includes the Air Cadet HQ and some of the old Married Quarters that they plan to keep). If they can continue to mow the grass and do the upkeep of the ATC HQ and Quarters then why not support the Chapel as well? I agree setting up a Trust funded by Heritage Lottery, English Heritage or some such is the best way forward, but the current plan of what looks like ditching it on the local Authority or the airport management company just doesn't cut it with so many (about 7,500 individuals so far in just under a week).

I hope that explains the position better?

LJ

[Jimlad1]

I find myself in agreement with Bismark here.

I totally agree it is important to preserve heritage and to ensure that where possible the MOD can support facilities and sites. But, Defence is under incredible financial pressures, and the demands for savings are incessant. That this measure is being looked at is a sign of how difficult times are.

Ultimately, Biggin Hill is no longer an active RAF site, and there must come a point when we have to ask why the RAF is paying to keep a chapel open when its not actually used by the RAF. The answer would either be to move it to another facility still in use (if there is no equivalent chapel at one of these sites), or to hand over to a charity to run on in perpetuity, like many other facilities have been.

I would far rather a charity ran this location and was able to keep it going properly, than the RAF pay a large sum of money for something its not using.

[Al R]

Just so I can get my head around this timeline, what's the sequence of events?

The Mail has now reported it and it's in the public domain, but did any MoD announcement predate it? Anna Soubry has tweeted back to me this morning, saying that she wants to save it, but the DM/MoS didn't consult her and give her a chance to explain. I (rashly?) suggested that it was her dept which set the wheels rolling before that, and she might like to consider why her bean counters didn't consult her first.

She strikes me (generally) as being a pretty poor excuse for a minister, not in command of her brief and just marking time before quickly returning to being an obscure hack or lobbyist. If I'm wrong about the timeline though, I might owe her an apology.

I am opposed to trusts looking after certain items of national importance. I only learned this morning that Isaac Newton's tree is just up the road and whilst I don't mind the National Trust looking after that, sending young men to die and remembering them should remain the sober, sombre and sacred responsibility of the government of the day, not a board of blummin' trustees looking for things to do as they out do the great and the good on the board of the next trust along and weedle their invitations for Buck House garden parties.

And don't get me started on the Heritage/National Lottery!

[johnmarkcunningham]

My dear Al R. English Heritage (EH) is the Government's adviser on historic and heritage matters. Perhaps you are unaware of EH's work on:

a. Guidance on the the management of historic military aircraft crash sites.

b. The EH RAF Scampton Historic Characterisation study.

c. EH's project to list (protect) 500 War memorials from the First World War.

d. EH's First World War "footprint" project to record the impact of the war
throughout the land.

If you argue that "the government" should be responsible then the best informed advice will come from EH.

Please try to hate a little less and to put forward evidence based arguments.

[Al R]

John,

It might be that you have fused the two separate strands of my post. I don't hate them at all (what a curious thing to suggest) and I used the word trust with a lower and with an upper case T. The idea that a local trust (or charity) should look after this chapel is appalling.

In the wider context, you provide a small but informative list of some examples of EHs work, thank you.

Isn't it the case though, that EH has been eager to hoover up work but is now stretched too thin? You asked for evidence.. to its credit, EH very quickly conceded it completely cocked up Stonehenge (quite important in the portfolio?) but seems generally, to be developing into a bit of a monster.

[newt]

This thread seems to be getting away from the original point! We are trying to support a petition to save the monument should the MOD find it can no longer do so!

If you support it then sign it. There is no petition for not saving the monument! If you want one you could always start one but I bet it would not get much support!:ok:

[Jimlad1]

Its highly likely that Soubry is on leave, as is the vast majority of the Govt and the Armed Forces. Her reply is likely being co-ordinated ahead of a return to work tomorrow when she can get more information.

She is, by all accounts, an excellent minister and one that everyone I know who has dealt with her has rated very highly as being passionate and in charge of her brief.

I wouldn't let a story breaking in the main leave season during a quiet time of year when many are away cloud judgement. The other point to note is that it would not necessarily have hit a Ministers desk to dispose of this site or others - without wishing to sound harsh, as this is a fairly routine process of disposal of a site no longer used by Defence, I'd argue wouldn't have needed to go to be briefed to a Minister who, IIRC doesn't lead on disposal of defence estate?

[Flying Lawyer]

Signed.

Currently 11,476 signatures.


FL

[ricardian]

The Daily Wail is on the case (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2895622/What-insult-MoD-abandons-iconic-memorial-dedicated-Battle-Britain-aces-save-paltry-50-000.html)

[Lima Juliet]

Now we're over 10,000 signatures, then the department responsible, the MOD, are bound to provide a reply.

More e-petitions will receive written responses from the government, Commons Leader Andrew Lansley has announced.

Until now, there has been no formal obligation on government departments to respond directly to e-petitioners.

Any e-petition signed by more than 10,000 people will have a government response published alongside it, Mr Lansley said.

So I would expect the MOD to provide a written answer to the petition at the very least to provide transparency to the whole matter.

Al R - the MOD declared that they would be looking to stop supporting the Chapel in March 2016 accross several sources.

St George?s RAF Chapel of Remembrance (http://www.kentattractions.co.uk/index.php/st-georges-raf-chapel-of-remembrance.html)

And page 3 midway down from the Airport Managing Director at:

http://www.johnwillis.co.uk/theclub/newsletter01jan15.pdf

Are certainly mentioning it.

LJ

[Whenurhappy]

The decision-makers behind this are, sadly, serving senior RAF officers. 'Cost of everything, value of nothing...'

Rather than dropping this PR disaster-bomb, this could have been much, much better handled by engaging with interested groups and providing a solution beforehand (Trust management, etc) rather than this omni-shambles - that is so wrong at every level!

Signed, btw - now just touching 12,000 signatures.

[johnmarkcunningham]

This is impressive momentum in a very short period. And shows that the admirable purpose of this thread - to raise awareness of the MOD's intention to cease funding the chapel and to solicit support for the e-petition is being achieved.

In my view there is already not a snowballs chance of the chapel having to close. So the next question is about the best structure to keep it open, even more healthy than at present, and with long term security. I continue to believe that MOD is unlikely to be a reliable long term owner/guardian - they will be under almost impossible financial pressure from the Treasury over the next five years, probably more difficult than the last five.

There will be lots of alternative ideas. It would be remiss, in my view, to dismiss either English Heritage (EH) or the National Trust (NT) both of whom have fine records of success, just because of an initial cultural unease at the thought of a non-MOD body taking responsibility.

If you consider only Kent can you think of a better preserved or presented property ( with strong military links ) than Chartwell (NT), or a better preserved or presented military site than Dover Castle (EH). And Al R, I don't like to see the good folk who work and volunteer for NT and EH dismissed as motivated only by the opportunity to "weedle their invitations to Buck House garden parties".

In my view both EH and the NT are likely to prove more dependable long term guardians of the chapel than the Biggin Hill Airport Co., Bromley Council, or even Mr Bernie Ecclestone who owns most of the south-west side of the airfield (The West Camp I believe) and who has been most generous in the past.

Both NT and EH, as I said earlier, would bring respect, professional management, investment and repair when needed, and a proven approach to managing volunteers if needed.

[clunckdriver]

As a Canadian, {ex RCAF} I tried to submit my voice but the site tells me I have to be a UK resident, having flown out of the "Hump" and feeling that enough of my fellow Canadians went missing flying from the place, can some kind soul PM me as to how I add my voice in protest about this outrage? Maybe Britain has another Rock Star with a sense of pride in his nation, unlike the total turds who are trying to close this memorial!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

PM sent......

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Also signed...... and saddened that the MOD has handled this in such a clumsy manner.
Sadly it would seem that the "Great British Public" at large are not concerned. Daily Mail circulation 1.47 million (sunday mail 2.28 million, but they may not be running with the story) compared with the 13K+ who have signed so far....many of whom, like me don't see or read the paper.
Need to put the story on shows like "The One Show" OK I don't watch that either but folks who do say it's watched by millions daily.

[Bernoulli]

Signed. 14,280signatures just now.

[5aday]

DCO out.

[Lima Juliet]

Don't knock it ROG - it is currently the highest scoring e-petition on the Gov website with over 680 signatures an hour!

Please see here for the scores: HM Government e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk)

I somehow think someone in the 'Centre' or 'Head Office' or what other b0ll0x we're calling Main Building these days will be busy tomorrow. It will probably mean that the question will come into HQ Air at around 1500hrs on Friday to be answered by 1700hrs :hmm:

Anyway, all positive news as far as I can see and hopefully there will be a sound plan hatched to ensure the Chapel's continuance under the eye of the MoD/RAF but looked after by a Trust. We've just got to keep the lobbying/petitioning going to ensure that this doesn't become yesterday's news before we go into purdah for the General Election.

Current 15,668 :ok:

LJ

PS. Tiger Mate for MBE? :}

[Army Mover]

Signed, best of luck.

15,668 signatures - WOW !!!

[Flying Lawyer]

kaikohe76
Why does the present Chief of the Air Staff get off his backside, show some courage & fight this proposal.
O dear, he is far more interested in his pension & chance of a seat in the Huse of Lords, shame on you.

Please excuse comments from a civvy but CAS doesn't strike me as a man who lacks either courage or integrity.
Far from it:

As a Wg Cdr, he stood his ground re the BOI findings concerning the Mull of Kintyre - a stance which was vindicated years later when the Review concluded that the reasoning of AOC No1 Group and AOC-in-C Strike Command, who had over-ruled him, was flawed.


And he clearly doesn't try to gain personal advantage by ingratiating himself with politicians:

RAF chief says politicians 'make it up as they go along' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10960082/RAF-chief-says-politicians-make-it-up-as-they-go-along.html)



Apologies for the drift but the criticism of Andy Pulford is unfounded and unfair.

[The B Word]

Just to drift off topic slightly for a second. Have a look at BBC News - First day 'is crucial for success of e-petitions' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23441223)

It would appear that this e-petition is in the top 0.7% of e-petitions of all time!

Just sayin' :cool:

The B Word

16,052 signatures and climbing...

[The Oberon]

A bit more drift but I wonder if The Guard's Chapel was considered.

[gearontheglide]

DCO number 16388. Accepted a BFPO address as well surprisingly.

[Hangarshuffle]

Signatures are no good, its hard cash the place needs.
As someone said on the Guardian newspapers online letters, Biggin Hill gets 25000 visitors then charge them £2 a pop to visit the chapel, and explain what its for (upkeep)..... there's your money.
Open a "friends of the chapel" organization and beg and plead.....
MOD isn't a history ministry, nor an heritage guardian. Is it really expected to pay for this upkeep?
What would you all rather have anyway...the ""fifth best funded armed force in the world", or another publically funded war memorial......hard choices indeed etc.
Its sort of shoots down Cameron and his recent help for heroes wristband wearing, and this sort of crass publicity exposes him and them for what he is, in a way.
And I would never think any less of the brave men who did the fighting anyway, memorial or not.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Not knocking the petition Leon.....I think its going like a bomb. Simply commenting that there's a lot of folk out there who couldn't give a tarts fart, which is rather sad.
Re VSO's standing up and being counted, I, like FL dont think they lack courage and integrity, and hope that when they all reassemble they will make the appropriate noises to the shameless pollies and CS's.

[Lima Juliet]

ROG - I'm with you 100% on that. :ok:

[iRaven]

Just looked at a Minister's Twitter feed stating on several occasions "We are working to keep it [the Chapel] open" - https://mobile.twitter.com/anna_soubrymp

Thus:

A. It would be reasonable to assume there is a current plan to close it, then, Minister?

B. It would be reasonable to assume that the Minister was aware of the plan to close it by her department, then?

Or am I reading too much into the Minister's words...

iRaven

PS. She would appear to be content for public funds to be spent, after consultation, on her local Chapel to keep it "special" as well! http://www.annasoubry.org.uk/campaigns/keep-cemetery-chapel-special

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Even in the Grauniad now!
Battle of Britain memorial chapel under threat as MoD pulls funding | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/04/battle-of-britain-memorial-chapel-under-threat-kent)
Since the Grauniad doesn't even have a Defence section,one presumes this is just an opportunity to embarrass the Government. Still, no such thing as bad publicity...

An MoD spokesman said: “This chapel is an integral part of our national heritage and the minister for defence personnel, welfare and veterans, Anna Soubry, is already working to find a replacement source of funding. “In order to ensure that the defence budget is spent in the most appropriate way, the MoD will look to relinquish ownership of St George’s Chapel by March 2016. However, we remain committed to its preservation.”

So you've announced you wish to relinquish it, don't have a plan in place, but "remain committed"....
This is either a very stupid way to go about it, or dishonest. Seems to be the modus operandi these days.:ugh:

[air pig]

An MoD spokesman said: “This chapel is an integral part of our national heritage and the minister for defence personnel, welfare and veterans, Anna Soubry, is already working to find a replacement source of funding. “In order to ensure that the defence budget is spent in the most appropriate way, the MoD will look to relinquish ownership of St George’s Chapel by March 2016. However, we remain committed to its preservation.”

So you've announced you wish to relinquish it, don't have a plan in place, but "remain committed"....
This is either a very stupid way to go about it, or dishonest. Seems to be the modus operandi these days.

F3WMB: maybe the incompetent fools hoped to slip it out during the Christmas stand down hoping nobody would notice, unlucky for them they were rumbled. As it's a church maybe all the religious denominations could throw a few pounds in each to contribute to its upkeep.

Who supports St Clement Danes, the Cof E?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

No idea if it receives MoD funds directly, but I doubt it.
I note they are currently recruiting Deputy Vergers on zero-hours contracts - how Christian!

Seems a bit at odds with..
The archbishop of York, John Sentamu, has condemned the low wages of millions of Britons as a "national scandal", saying businesses have ignored a moral duty to ensure that all employees are paid enough to live on.
He argues that it is both morally and economically wrong for government to give tacit approval to an approach that lands the state with a huge bill to top up the incomes of the lowest earners.

[iRaven]

The news is going global now...Fears cherished Battle of Britain memorial will close as Government AXES funding (http://en.newhub.shafaqna.com/UK/125288-Fears-cherished-Battle-of-Britain-memorial-will-close-as-Government-AXES)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Currently slightly less popular on that Turkish feed than

Pet owner pays £300 for surgery on constipated pet goldfish -Ibtimes

but doing better than

Liverpool prepare January move for Valencia striker Paco Alcacer -Ibtimes

[iRaven]

Anyone else noted who Biggin's local MP is? It is the kid brother of Boris; Jo Johnson MP. I wonder if the big man, as Mayor of London, would be encouraged to chip in?

iRaven

[iRaven]

F3WMB - I remember the constipated goldfish on the BBC news! :ok:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Pity there isn't a cheap Op for the MoD, since they seem equally full of sh!t

[iRaven]

:D:D:D

By the way, the Express is where that Turkish article came from:
Cherished Battle of Britain memorial could close after Government axes its funding | UK | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/550166/Battle-Britain-memorial-could-close-Government-axes-funding)

So with the Mail, Express, BBC, ITV, Guardian, Telegraph all running it, then it isn't surprising that the signatories now total 17,000+ :D

iRaven

[Al R]

I saw that JJ MP saw through her flannel and rather neatly put words into her mouth.

[kaikohe76]

Fair enough reply Flying Lawyer & I certainly accept, understand & agree with your comments re the Mull of Kintyre accident. I do consider the UK military have been let down & treated quite badly by successive Governments for a number of years. In the old days even senior officers had to tow the line rather, but if they don't speak up for the Armed Services & what they stand for presently, the polititions certainly won't. I would like to think also, that words might have been exchanged behind closed doors at a high level on this particular matter.

[Wrathmonk]

FL

Andy Byford

In joke or typo?;)

And given CAS' background in the RP community he certainly knows how to play "this game". I very much doubt he is doing much sitting on his backside!:ok:

[A2QFI]

A colleague of mine received the following from the Minister

A response from MOD:

Direct response, within the hour from Anna Soubry, Defence Minister,
Gary Preston I can assure you I do not want the closure of the Biggin Hill Chapel. It will be preserved and kept open. I am working on how we secure the funding. I am sorry that you have been misled by a newspaper report - the reporter has my phone number. He didn't call me or the Ministry of Defence. If he had he would have been given the facts. Instead people have been unduly worried and concerned. It is inconceivable that this important memorial to the sacrifice of some of our finest airmen would be "boarded up". Thank you for contacting me so I can reassure you. Anna

[Lima Juliet]

^^^^
So would the Minister like to explain how the Chapel came to be under threat in the first place? It should never have been an option full stop! With words from the Minister on her Twitter feed stating "We are working on how to keep it open" implies that there is a current plan to close it.

It is good to see that the Department now recognises the unique history behind this special Chapel - which Churchill called a shrine to the Few - but it is a shame it took an e-petition and embarassing headlines to achieve it.

Furthermore, why should a newspaper check with the Minister before running a story? It would not be a 'free press' then would it?

In the same way as Jo Johnson MP stated - I too am glad to hear that the MOD plans to save the Chapel from closure and see its continued funding.

LJ :ok:

[Al R]

She is trying to shape the story (as you might expect from a journo). So let's strip it back. The issue is the underlying intent and now, the frantic back peddling by Soubry as she seeks to limit the damage. If there was never any intent in the first instance, there wouldn't be anything to firefight.

The issue never was that the MoD wanted to close it and she never wanted it to be closed. But it made the decision to stop funding without properly planning the transition or legacy. Soubry was either party to that process which shows lack of judgement on her part or she simply wasn't in the loop which shows lack of oversight, or she simply didn't comprehend the consequences.

Saying, as she has been, "we remain committed to its preservation” is not the same as saying that ultimately, it will remain open and cared for. I'm committed to losing some weight this January but that's not the same as saying it's going to happen. Commitments these days, are mealy mouthed babble, the preserve of the prevaricator.

Similarly, Jo Johnson suggesting "Great news MoD committing to preservation of Battle of Britain Chapel in Biggin Hill -thanks to good sense of Anna Soubry" is nice because it's putting pressure on her but it's still not the same as saying "Great news MoD will be keeping the Battle of Britain Chapel in Biggin Hill open and preserved".

[Wrathmonk]

she simply wasn't in the loop which shows lack of oversight

Or leaked by a desk officer (who opposed the measure) prior to the final 'savings package' being presented to the minister? Wouldn't be the first (or last) time that such a tactic has been used.....

[Al R]

Very true!

(Or undermined by a malcontented, malicious and malevolent minion?)

[Dougie M]

Now it has made the broadsheets today, there may be a little more urgency in the preservation campaign.

[Al R]

The airport steps in - a bit of a 'third way' result. What a shame that, if it wasn't for the airport, there would have been a closure. If there was no intent to dispose of it, why would the airport have to step in? The plan was to offload it all along. Soubry's hands have ink on them.

Biggin Hill Airport steps in to save RAF Chapel of Remembrance | Sevenoaks Chronicle (http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk/Biggin-Hill-Airport-steps-save-RAF-Chapel/story-25807903-detail/story.html)

[newt]

The Minister completely under estimated the depth of feeling this would attract! Hence her belated retraction!

[Flying Lawyer]

Wrathmonk

Wish I could claim it was a joke, but it was a typo. https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5900/best-vlasta.4b/0_5acdd_95c19d39_S.gif

Now corrected.
Thanks for pointing it out.

FL

[Canadian Break]

I too signed the e-petition and so, of course I am glad that the chapel will now remain open. However, the discussion here has raised some interesting points. I have made this statement in other posts but - "there is no money" and so of course everything is up for grabs. If one wants to bash the Government (and it would seem that many do) for trying to close the chapel then crack on - " someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing" springs to mind. However, the chapel will remain open - by fair means or foul so why don't we move on? I seem to remember that one of the very first things I learnt at OCTU (so that dates me!) was if you want to criticize, then be sure it's constructive criticism. Sorry - rant over! Happy New Year to All. CB

[Lima Juliet]

You see a buy out by Biggin Hill Airport Ltd isn't good enough for me. Here is why from a quote in the Airport Newsletter by Mr Will Curtis, the Managing Director of Biggin Hill Airport Ltd from Jan 15:

Seriously though, we need to ensure that we all take part in the Council's own consultation and respond positively as, if we are not careful, the small minority of "antis" will yet again get a disproportionate amount of air time and attention. It seems that the NIMBYs are not interested in jobs for the younger generation, nor in the future success of the airport which they would ideally like to see closed for good. They slate the airport openly for failing (in their opinion) to support the heritage of the airport, all the time ignoring the fact that the airport has volunteered, for no reward, to underwrite the cost of operating a heritage centre if it can be built and to underwrite the cost of maintaining and protecting St. Georges chapel if and when the MOD decide to take it off their books. It is difficult to see what more we might do to support the heritage of the airport. We see our heritage as important and we are keen to protect and honour the history of Biggin Hill airport for future generations, but this will cost money and money, as you all know, does not grow on trees. It has to be earned by commercial activity. The antis, it seems, care only about themselves. The fact that many of them moved into their very substantial houses around the airport, or under its approach, relatively recently and certainly long after the airport was in operation does not seem to matter to them at all. Ironically, they seem as keen as us on honouring the heritage of the airport . They believe, it seems, that Biggin Hill airport can survive purely to service the odd Spitfire flight and host some bits of bent metal carefully placed in an exhibition centre.

Of course, it is more complicated than that, and the £6 million annual cost of operating an airport of this size can only be met by commercial Business Aviation traffic. In the absence of that, I can see Biggin Hill falling prey to airlines, or alternatively following in the footsteps of West Malling aerodrome - also an important WWII fighter base - whose heritage is now buried under 1,500 affordable homes

So who feels comfortable this after seeing the above? Yes, Biggin Hill Airport Ltd could take this on - but what happens when times get tough? As a business it is suggested that when times are tough that they are very unlikely to provide full support of the Chapel - I couldn't blame them for that, either. So the MoD needs to be encouraged to keep this as a heritage site in my opinion, gifting (or more like ditching!) the responsibility to a commercial operation should not be an option. We should have a strategic policy on this as too many new 'heritage' projects keep springing up when old and historically important ones like this Chapel are allowed to fade away into obscurity. The depth of feeling on this is plain to see and the Minister's 'rescue plan' just doesn't cut it.

There are the last remains of aircrew scattered in the grounds of this Chapel - as a relative, how would you feel if all the Commonwealth War Graves were given to say McDonalds, ASDA, WH Smiths and Wetherspoons to run?

I still think this 'new' plan is poor, I'm afraid (that isn't actually new and they were talking about the past 12 months at least by looking at some of the Parish minutes and other local newsletters).

Shame on those that think that the Minister's solution is OK.

LJ :*

P.S. Having re-read the above quote, I would suggest that the Company's apparent keeness to preserve the Chapel may have a hint of their need to placate the local NIMBYs for the Company's planned expansion as a Bizjet Airport. Maybe, I'm being harsh on them, and maybe they are very good people wanting to help, so I reserve judgement on their actual motive to fund this. If it is genuine, then I apologise for my thoughts on this up front, unreservedly.

[Al R]

I imagine that the lines were glowing today. Why EH didn't step in is curious.

For £50,000 pa though? There are two schools of thought here; those who suggest that if you look after the pennies the pounds will look after themselves and those who suggest penny wise, pound foolish. It's a cliche, but it seems that the third option wins out - this is about knowing the price of something and not the value of it.

Anna had her hand forced and as a result of that, due to the original thought processes at work, we have a shocking result. I agree, trusting this to a small local company, whatever the motivation or however benevolent the intent, is a shocker. But Soubry, can she now backtrack? Saying sorry or conceding she got it wrong isn't her style.

[Al R]

thePipeLine | FALLON FACES BATTLE OF BRITAIN CHAPEL EMBARESSMENT (http://thepipeline.info/blog/2015/01/05/fallon-faces-battle-of-britain-chapel-embaressment/#more)

Many would argue that £50,000 is a small price for the Government to pay on behalf of the taxpayer to remember permanently the RAF personnel who flew from, or died at, Biggin Hill and who helped ensure they still had a sovereign Parliament to sit in.

[Tiger_mate]

The petition is now approaching 26k. Far from jumping for joy at resolution, the cynic in me believes that only a Trust or Govt body can ringfence long term security of this national asset. No disrespect to Biggin Hill Airport, but I feel that some astute back peddling has taken place and many will hope it now dies a death. Personally, I would like to see the 100,000 required for it to be answered 'in the house' and as such be documented on public record.

[newt]

I agree Tiger. This needs to be taken to 100k so the government has to make a statement.:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

I agree, although politics are conspiring against us. Firstly, the 'new' announcement about the airport taking it over (that isn't that "new") and the fact that the Govt goes into purdah in just over 2 months time makes hitting the 100k required difficult and also once there even harder to fit in as a debate.

They're not called politicians for nothing...;)

Somehow, the momentum needs to be renewed.

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

I also agree ... Propaganda machinery still in overdrive ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/ScreenShot2015-01-07at074100_zpsffc2d2ed.png

MOD Twitter Feed +13 Hrs

[johnfairr]

Just caught a bit in passing, apparently the Bromley (Tory) MP asked a question of the PM regarding the fate of the Chapel.

"We will do whatever it takes to preserve this for our and future generations" was the reply, or something similar.

Not a bad result. :ok::ok::ok:

[Wrathmonk]

Transcript from PMQs

Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con):
Will the Prime Minister update the House on the future arrangements for the upkeep of the Royal Air Force memorial chapel at Biggin Hill, the iconic former Battle of Britain airfield?

The Prime Minister:
I can absolutely confirm to the House that that chapel will be preserved for future generations, as we have always recognised its importance and its rich heritage. I think it possible that of all the great moments in British history, the Battle of Britain 1940 stands out as one of the most important times that there have been. So we will protect the chapel, and will do all that we can to protect it for future generations.

[BEagle]

So we will protect the chapel, and will do all that we can to protect it for future generations.

:= Sorry, Dave: "Could do better if tried", as my Latin master was oft wont to write in my report - usually after passing low flying Hunters had grabbed rather more of my attention than had 'gerundive attraction'.

We need to hear "We will protect the chapel for future generations". Nothing less will do!

[cowkeeper2]

Protect not necessarily fund???? I agree with others who think we should maintain the momentum and reach the 100,000 on the petition

[Wander00]

Beags seems to have put the topic in a nutshell. DC and others please take note

[baffman]

It is reported that Biggin Hill Airport has stepped in to make up the shortfall of £50K per year in the running costs.

Battle of Britain chapel saved from closure by Biggin Hill Airport - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11327633/Battle-of-Britain-chapel-saved-from-closure-by-Biggin-Hill-Airport.html)

[chopd95]

As said, there are certain things that bind a nation, apologies if this has been quoted earlier.

Winston Churchill at the dedication in 1951

..... as a nation we have short memories, and it is as well [this memorial] should bring to our remembrance the cost of victory in the days when one of our fighter pilots had to be worth ten. They died without seeing the reward for their efforts; we live to hold their reward inviolate and unfading...

Politicians and beancounters should pay heed to the first and last words ?

[newt]

I see the Mail on Sunday online is claiming that it's article about the chapel is what saved it! What a load of tosh! It was the rate at which the petition was gaining ground and the support of senior wheels in the MOD which caused the retraction!

Let's now see what really happens!:E

[Lima Juliet]

Newt

I agree, this was a multiple outrage and not one single action 'saved' the Chapel - if indeed it really is saved! I'm still uneasy about the current plan of ditching, sorry gifting, its upkeep to the airport (honourable their intention might be at present, but that could change in the future if things take a turn for the worse for the company in future).

LJ

[dragartist]

Not sure whether to start a new thread or add to this one. It all appeared quite emotive at the time with a lot of support for the Chapel.


Anyway here goes: I received an invitation this morning to register for the Business and General Aviation Exhibition. This year being held at Biggin Hill on 15th September. In keeping with the occasion there will be some Battle of Britain commemorative flying. I don't have the detail. I thought fellow PPRuNe ers may be interested. The event is free to attend. Clearly there are some eligibility criteria and pre registration on line is essential. (You can't just turn up on the day)


Last year the event was held at Cambridge and I supported the RAeS stand which was next to the Biggin Hill "International" Airport stand. Clearly you engage in conversation. It was evident that the folks running the airport majored on the historical significance and heritage of the site. They appeared very supportive of the local Air Cadets. I was extremely pleased to hear they are contributing to the upkeep of the chapel. I hope they have been true to their word. They gave me the impression of being a good bunch of aviation minded people.


The exhibition does not cater for military at all but may be something those living locally may be interested in. Perhaps a meet up of PPRuNers (pink carnation and copy of Aviation Week under left arm) Be good to pay ones respects at the Chapel at least.


Unfortunately I am not available on the day. I gather there may be other BoB events that day.


Drag

[ricardian]

Another battle! (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance)

[whisperair]

Ladies and Gentlemen

Many of you will be aware of the campaign to realise an appropriate - if belated, 'Heritage Centre' at Biggin Hill.

The freehold of the chapel passed from the MoD to L.B. Bromley and the Council contracted a 'renowned' Architect to bring the project to life.

I make no comment on his vision of what is an appropriate memorial to those who participated in our 'finest hour', save to ask that you read the petition below and search 'Protect Biggin Hill RAF Chapel' for more detail on the plans before hopefully adding your voice to the rising number of people who have an alternative view to that of Bromley Council.



http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance (http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrancehttp://)

I have posted below the text from an email I received a few days ago from the petition starter, in case any of you are in south London on Tuesday evening, or perhaps have contacts in RAFA or RBL who may wish to add their voices to the throng:

Thank you.

"To All of You who care about this Iconic Chapel,

Last Wednesday I was allowed just three minutes to present our case to Bromley Council's Executive Committee, but they are ignoring our 7,600+ voices. They are proceeding to a special Full Council Meeting for final verification on Tuesday next week, but so far are not allowing me to represent our case to all 60 Councillors, because they estimate local votes to be less than 4,000.

Please could you come to Bromley this Tuesday 25th July at 6.30pm for a show of 'People Power' in a last ditch attempt to change their minds?

The address is:- Bromley Civic Centre, Stockwell Close Bromley, BR1 3UH. Both Bromley South and North British Rail Stations are close by, and a large multi-storey car park is adjacent to the Civic Centre.

Despite all our pleas, no national newspapers have picked up on our campaign, despite this campaign being of such National (and International) importance, so you are are our last chance!! Please still keep spreading the word, just Google: Protect Biggin Hill RAF Chapel.

Thank you, Rita Radford"

[Basil]

Hear, hear! Signed and passed on.

[manxexile]

Shameful, signed.

[S'land]

Not able to sign as a German postcode is "not a valid postcode".

[Out Of Trim]

Link not working !

[OffshoreSLF]

Shameful, signed.

Couldn't agree more! Signed.

[whisperair]

Firstly, a heartfelt thank you to all those who took the time to sign Rita Radford's petition. At the time of writing this (Friday 1730), the total number of signatories stands at 8,804.

My apologies to those of you for whom the link didn't work (this includes me too this evening) and to those residing in foreign climes whose postcodes flummoxed 38 Degrees software, thank you for your interest too.

The meeting took place on Tuesday as advertised and Rita Radford read a stirring statement to a packed Council chamber as to why the project should not go ahead in its current form. She cited amongst other reasons, the appalling design and the destruction of the chapel's Grade 2 listed vestry. She wondered also why a previous scheme promulgated by the (now defunct but still watching with interest) Biggin Hill Battle of Britain Supporters Club and which had already been granted planning permission, had been ignominiously dismissed in favour of this new stark and unsuitable edifice? 'This will not be a heritage centre, more of a visitor centre' she said.

One Councillor who spoke in favour of the design, caused some disbelieving mirth from the objectors in the public gallery, by insisting that the design blended seamlessly with the fabric of the original building and that the matter of approval - or otherwise was, in any event subjective. Exactly!

Having all been given a private 'pep talk' prior to the meeting, only three Councillors felt able to speak out against the motion, which was subsequently carried.

Both local Councillors and the local MP Jo Johnson support the project as it stands.

The haste with which this project is being pushed through is in order for it to be opened in time for Sunday 11th November 2018. So, is an unpopular and unsatisfactory scheme to be foisted upon the most famous fighter station in the world just to satisfy political vanity?

The battle however is not yet over. Rita Radford and her supporters are still out there campaigning for what, whether you are currently serving, went through the OASC or, like me, just an old 'Biggin Hillbilly' who remembers the Hunters, the 'Open Days' and playing footie on the artificial pitch in the hangar, one of the most important places in the world, at one of the most important times in history and must be commemorated accordingly.

Please follow Rita's thread on the next page and if there is ANYTHING you feel you can do to help her campaign, I know just how grateful she and everyone else who cares for St George's, the memory of all those who have served at Biggin and the history which oozes out of every inch of that old airfield, will be.

Update: The campaign features on BBC1 London News this evening

Thank you.

[Doctor Rita]

The link I hope:http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance

[David Thompson]

Two events taking place during the September Heritage Open Days and worthy of support ;
https://www.heritageopendays.org.uk/visiting/printable-area-lists/town/Biggin%20Hill

HOD website to check for events in your local area ;
https://www.heritageopendays.org.uk/

[Arclite01]

Whisperair

I don't remember an artificial pitch in the hangars - I do remember an indoor 5-a-side pitch with a concrete floor (the hangar floor) where we used to play 'off the walls'. I've also played badminton, volleyball and indoor cricket in the hangar and cricket outside on the grass, ..........

Or is my memory playing tricks with me re: the artificial pitch ?

I used to live at Valley View BTW.................and like you have fond memories of Battle of Britain 'At Home' days and the early 'Biggin Hill Air Fair' displays. I can certainly remember the Low Flying Aircraft signs on the main road by the Salt Box Café - although jets had long gone by then...........

I have been to many services in the chapel and some of my friends have been married there. It's a very atmospheric place for me.

Arc

[orgASMic]

Why on earth are they aiming for the project to be completed by for 11 Nov 18? The BoB Chapel has nothing to do with the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI. They should be aiming for 15 Sep 20 if they want a significant date and a round number of years.
I think that Rita Radford and those wishing to preserve the dignity of the Chapel have been side-lined in an inexcusable fashion by know-nothing councilors pushing a half-arsed project.

[whisperair]

Whisperair

I don't remember an artificial pitch in the hangars - I do remember an indoor 5-a-side pitch with a concrete floor (the hangar floor) where we used to play 'off the walls'. I've also played badminton, volleyball and indoor cricket in the hangar and cricket outside on the grass, ..........

Or is my memory playing tricks with me re: the artificial pitch ?

I used to live at Valley View BTW.................and like you have fond memories of Battle of Britain 'At Home' days and the early 'Biggin Hill Air Fair' displays. I can certainly remember the Low Flying Aircraft signs on the main road by the Salt Box Café - although jets had long gone by then...........

I have been to many services in the chapel and some of my friends have been married there. It's a very atmospheric place for me.

Arc

Good to hear from another 'local'.

As I recall, the 5-a-side pitch surface was rubberised not bare concrete. We weren't that hard - but we would never have let on to the Westerham boys, we had a reputation to uphold!

Sadly, along with jets, the 'Salt Box Cafe' was consigned to history some years back.

They were good times to live in Biggin. Many school-friends were RAF Brats and feelings in the village for our uniformed neighbours ran deep, which is why there is so much resentment locally to the Council's plans for St George's Chapel.

[whisperair]

Why on earth are they aiming for the project to be completed by for 11 Nov 18? The BoB Chapel has nothing to do with the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI. They should be aiming for 15 Sep 20 if they want a significant date and a round number of years.
I think that Rita Radford and those wishing to preserve the dignity of the Chapel have been side-lined in an inexcusable fashion by know-nothing councilors pushing a half-arsed project.

Exactly that!

[skua]

Good article in this week's Eye about the substantial architectural demerits of the Council's scheme.

[ricardian]

There's still time to sign the petition (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance)

13,000 signatures so far

[whisperair]

On Thursday 31st August at 16:00, St George's Chapel was closed for visitors and the gates chained and padlocked. Relatives of veterans whose ashes lie within the Garden of Remembrance, are now unable to visit their last resting place.

Following the 'Battle of Britain' service on 17th September, demolition works and construction are due to begin, of what is described in Private Eye as a "mediocre, inappropriate and inadequate" structure, with which Bromley Council intend to scar this important site, as a poor excuse for a 'Battle of Britain Museum" at the world's most famous WW2 fighter station.

The war is not over yet however, the Local Government Ombudsman is currently investigating a number of issues concerning the behaviour of Bromley Council and more than 14,000 concerned and angry people have now signed the petition set up by Doctor Rita and numbers continue to rise. The petition will be presented shortly to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport; The Rt Hon Karen Bradley MP.

If you haven't already signed, please use the link below, or visit the campaign Twitter account @SaveOurChapel #ProtectStGeorges , where you will also find copies of the various press articles and a link to a video of the item run by BBC London News. Unfortunately, those of you without a UK postcode will not be accepted by the petition site.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance

[navstar1]

It would appear that after "filibustering" by the local council last night which precluded pre booked questions being asked into this disgraceful scheme that scaffolding has been erected and work has started today. A total disgrace.

[just another jocky]

From another website:


Latest news http://www.bikerssnug.co.uk/forum/Smileys/snug/angry.gif

Copied from an email I received today:

************************************************************

Last night we were were denied asking on your behalf our pre-booked oral questions at a Full Council Meeting of London Borough of Bromley. The newly appointed Deputy Leader deviously 'filibustered' us, by waffling on and using up all the available time responding to questions on another matter. The Leader of the Council and the Chief Executive appeared to be complicit in this manoeuvre, making no attempt to curb his ramblings.

One of the important issues we were to raise was whether it was morally correct that Heritage Lottery money should be used to demolish part of the Listed Chapel. The Council have been granted nearly £2M of Heritage Lottery money for this divisive scheme. If you think that this is wrong, as I do, will you please email the Head of the Heritage Lottery Fund, Stuart Hobley, and copy in the Leader of the Council, and his Chief Executive. Just a sentence or two and if you don't get a reply, please send it again. Their email addresses are:

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

Scaffolding was erected yesterday around the Vestry and stripping out of the interior has started today, despite the Local Government Ombudsman not having received the information he requested from the Council to start his investigation into their planning procedures!!

So sorry to bring such bad news, but please do email the people above to show your disapproval.

[ricardian]

And another update received just now on Facebook:


Hello Friends,

Please keep your emails going to the Heritage Lottery Fund (who are financing this travesty) and also Bromley Council. But now please copy in Historic England as well.

I know some of you have received 'nonsense' replies from the London Borough of Bromley. If you have any doubts about what we have said, please google the official Historic England Listing for the Memorial Chapel, Entry No 1391588. The detailed description of the North Chapel or Vestry starts: 'The large Chapel to the N is detailed in a more complex way....' The 'oculus' it then goes on to mention is the Air Crew Association stained glass window.

The Chapel has only been listed once, that being in 2005 and the Listing is for the COMPLETE building, comprising the Main Chapel, the St George's Room and the Vestry, which is a fine brick building designed by acclaimed Architects Purcell Miller Tritton. It covers some 70 square metres, the largest component of which is described on the plans as the 'Choir Vestry'. It was completed at the time of the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain and was built because it had been noted that the Chapel was lacking in its facilities and it incorporates a small boiler room to make the Chapel independent heating wise. The complete Chapel is 'modern' in Listed Building terms, as it is all post war, and demolition of the Vestry is part demolition of the Listed building.

The Leader of the Council has also made comments to emailers on the matter of the 'filibustering', perhaps he should contact his own Mayor on the subject, who has emailed us on this matter and is in no doubt as to what happened.

I hope you all agree that the demolition of the Vestry and replacing it with an ugly inadequate building, despised by the public, is misappropriation of Lottery funds.

CAN YOU HELP US GET THIS INTO THE PRESS ?!?

With your help we can still get this madness stopped and convince the Council to give us a Museum building 'Worthy' of the most famous RAF Station in the world, Biggin Hill, the 'Strongest Link'.

Email addresses: [email protected] and [email protected]

Copy to: [email protected] and [email protected]

Please feel free to email me: [email protected]

Kindest regards

Rita Radford

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance

[just another jocky]

A reply from HLF:


Thank you for your email in relation to the BigginHill Memorial Museum project. We are responding to all correspondence on thismatter in a similar way.

We awarded a grant of £1.98m in June 2017 for a project to carry out necessaryrepairs to the Chapel of Remembrance at Biggin Hill, safeguarding it for thefuture, as well as to create a new museum.

Pressures on public finances have rendered the MoD and Church of England unableto manage the Chapel's requirements and the whole site faced risk of closure,with no public access possible.

To be clear, the Grade II listed Chapel, built in 1951, is not beingdemolished.



Our funding is being used to undertake careful repairsto return the Chapel to its original intention and preserve it for the future,including stained glass reparations, replacement of damaged roof tiles,re-pointing, and brickwork repairs.

A small extension, built in 1990 is being removed, and we are aware of thelocal anxiety surrounding this. However Historic England, the government'sstatutory heritage agency, have reviewed the plans and they have not objectedto this work. This extension is not a public space. We are aware this requiresthe movement of the Air Crew Association stained glass window however theCouncil has assured us this will stay on the site and in view independently ofthe Museum, as it is now.

We have no role in the concept of the design of the museum. We requireapplicants follow the established democratic processes to ensure projects areappropriately consulted, and granted the necessary permissions. This projectwas granted planning permission following the required Council procedures,which is not something we have a place to override.

We note local concern over access to the Chapel during construction works. Thesite is currently closed to general admission until the building works are complete,in November 2018, however there will be a number of special access days to theChapel and Garden of Remembrance for local people during the works period.Funerals of veterans will be accommodated during the closure period, and accessfor visitors from far afield with special connections to the site will also beaccommodated where possible. The Garden of Remembrance is consecrated so cannotand will not be disturbed by the works.



We are aware ofcomments made about Bromley Council meetings. HLF is not accountable, orpresent, at Council meetings and any questions or concerns about these must beaddressed to the Council direct.

The new Museum will provide opportunity to ensure that the story of the AirCrew of Biggin Hill is shared with a much wider range of people than it is now.The project will also allow free independent public access to the Chapel tocontinue into the future, for longer hours than ever before. Further informationcan be found at http://www.bhmm.org.uk/faqs/ (http://www.bhmm.org.uk/faqs/)



We would suggestthat you contact the Museum Trust directly to share your views with the projectteam. They can be contacted on [email protected].

Kind Regards,

Stuart Hobley

Head ofHeritage Lottery Fund, London

[ricardian]

Latest news with photograph of demolition taking place - and a petition to sign (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance?source=facebook-share-email-button&time=1507360540)

[johnfairr]

Petition signed and shared on the Book of Face. Over 20,000 signatures as at today.

[Chugalug2]

This is the latest news from Rita. Just when one thought that things couldn't get any worse:-
Dear Friends,

The London Borough of Bromley and its BHMM Trust first demolished the Vestry, part of the Grade Two listed Chapel, at a cost of £25k, then started to build the horrible 'Visitors Centre' with wholly inappropiate bricks, and now have cut down all the trees and shrubs that had created such an atmosphere of tranquilty at the Chapel over the years since the war.

IT NOW TRANSPIRES THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FUNDING TO COMPLETE THE BUILDING!

The Learning Centre, a large part of the rear of the building, and stipulated by the Council's own consultants as 'critical' to the project, is now on hold and a public appeal has been made for £250K, although in Council and BHMM documentation, the underfunding is £600K to £650K! However the project was 'bulldozed' ahead, despite the Council knowing as early as July last year that their funding application to the Clore Duffield Foundation, who finance educational projects, had been unsuccessful (source: LBB Report No: DRR17/032). Unless in the next few months a huge amount of money suddenly magically appears, the rear of the building will not be completed for the planned opening in the Autumn. This is all happening despite the Council claiming to have already achieved funding of £5.3m, so with the costs already accrued within the Council, the cost of this 'divisive' inadequate scheme must be in excess of a whopping £6m!

Surely for a Council to start a project of this nature, knowing full funding was not in hand, could be considered extremely dubious?

I am doing everything I can to publicise these facts, so if you think of any way to raise the profile, please do so because it will have more impact than only coming from me.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance

Thanking you all for your continued support, and please keep spreading the word.

Rita Radford email: [email protected]



It turns out they can! If you haven't signed the petition yet please do so. It is almost within a mere 2,500 of the stated target of 25,000 signatures. Bromley Council's incompetence needs a just reward. Let's just give it to them!

[Basil]

Does Bromley Council have no shame? What an utter shower!