Taliban declares defeat of NATO

[Sun Who]

How predictable was this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30626728)?
Arguably, they're right. Makes me sad and angry in equal measure.

Sun.

[Roger the cabin boy]

Why so surprised? Why? Crikey, it was inevitable that we were never going to "win" - we knew that going in in spades back in '06. Unless we deployed in our hundreds of thousands, without restrictive ROE, and without the media on our case - along with a coherent, joined up and intelligent political strategy for the long term - it was always going to be this way. The Army deployed for 6 month spells, each Brigade Cdr with his own 'vision' (of how to win a DSO and how to protect the Army), each subaltern determined to win the MC: the RAF for less and in far fewer numbers (of platforms) to mean anything. The RN (not inc Royal) where they could...

This is in no way meant to belittle anything or anyone - there were clearly amazing individual and collective actions on the battlefield, in the skies and in places like the Role 3, DFAC, etc.

But I'm afraid that politics - real and inter-service - made this unwinable. We lost.

[Pontius Navigator]

Last man standing is how it is.

As Roger says, proper coherence and a permanent occupation.

[Sun Who]

Why so surprised?

I'm not. That's why it makes me sad and angry. It was inevitable.

Sun.

[Brian W May]

Sadly, from their viewpoint, they did.

As in Vietnam and other conflicts, 'we' were defeated from within, with our media and plethora of do-gooders.

You can't win without the political will and support.

RIP all those and NoK who bear the scars and loss.

[fantom]

My God, that is the most depressing thing I have read here.

[Royalistflyer]

If you stop to think about it, we didn't "win" in Korea, we merely stopped them. The Americans certainly didn't win in Vietnam - and that was very predictable to us at the time. We were never going to win in Afghanistan or Iraq. And let me see .... precisely what did our little expedition in Libya achieve? We need to keep out of America's adventures, they are not ours. We have these islands to defend, our seaways to defend and our Old Commonwealth to assist. And that's about it. Oh - and as far as I can see, we can't even convincingly defend these islands with the kit we've got.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

In 2002, I was asked to give a guest lesson at school to the Religious Studies crowd on 'The Just War'. Unsurprisingly, I was asked about Afghanistan. I directed them to go speak to the Assistant Bursar, late Royal Anglian Regiment. The chat itself was unnecessary, for hanging on the wall behind his desk was

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Last-stand.jpg/304px-Last-stand.jpg
"The last stand of the survivors of Her Majesty's 44th Foot at Gandamak"

[Roger the cabin boy]

Mate, they're not just "America's adventures" - that is a very naive view: we (the Brits) galloped in wholeheartedly, just without (over time) the popular support of the nation and without the financial support required to be a world class power. Show me a squaddie (or Crab, or Matelot) who wasn't a bit excited about going to war. Or a politician who wasn't filled with reflected glory when committing the Forces.

Let's be honest - after 9/11, if we hadn't supported our closet ally to the hilt, how would 95%+ of us in the military have felt, watching the action from the sidelines? And how marginalised and insignificant would our Nation be now, in 2014/15, I wonder?

Again, in the name of honesty, let's speak truthfully. I fecking loved deploying to Afghan (on the ground and in the air): it was hyper exciting, thrilling and terrifying in equal measure. And as tragic as it was for some (seen at very close hand), I 'knew' it would never be my turn, and I loved it the more for it. But I, and all of us, knew it was for naught. But we went anyway. Because we love adventure.

And the UK Pollies who sit in a chair for perhaps 5 years love it too, be it Labour or Tory.

And what does that say about us all?

[Lima Juliet]

A Taliban win? Complete and utter tosh, people, believe what you will...

My bold and underline added in this recent press release:

ISAF has transitioned to Op RESOLUTE SUPPORT from its previous mission. ISAF’s original mandate was to assist the newly-established Afghan Transitional Authority in and around Kabul. The scope and scale of ISAF’s mission grew as the Coalition added Provincial Reconstruction Teams and took on the responsibility to provide security while Afghan security forces were growing in strength. A critical function throughout the effort was the mentoring and training of Afghan forces. ISAF’s lasting legacy, accomplished with Afghan partners, was the establishment of a 350,000-strong security force, which today is fully responsible for security in Afghanistan. During the course of the 2014 fighting season, the ANSF prevented the Taliban from disrupting national elections allowing more than seven million Afghans to exercise their right to vote. This led to the establishment of the Afghan National Unity Government, which marked the first peaceful democratic transition of power in Afghan history.

Basic measurements of progress across all major sectors of society have shown improvement: life expectancy is rising; mobile communication technology is expanding; an independent media corps is flourishing; and school enrollment is up from one to well over seven million children in the past decade with one third being females. This was inconceivable 13 years ago

“Today marks an end of an era and the beginning of a new one. RESOLUTE SUPPORT will serve as the bedrock of our enduring partnership with Afghanistan” said Resolute Support Commander, U.S. Army General John F. Campbell.

The RESOLUTE SUPPORT mission will consist of more than 12,500 troops focused on building Afghan National Security Force (ANSF) sustainability. 28 NATO Allies and 14 partner nations will contribute to the mission in different ways.

“Now is the time to write the next chapter in our story,” said General Hans-Lothar Domrose, Joint Force Command Brunssum Commander, referring to the launch of Resolute Support.

“We need your help to build the systems necessary to ensure the long-term sustainability of our forces,” said Mohammad Hanif Atmar, Afghanistan’s National Security Advisor. “This is a formidable challenge for any modern army and police force.”

The international community continues to pledge support and financial commitment to help foster an Afghan Decade of Transformation. These efforts will be undertaken with the leadership of President Ashraf Ghani and Chief Executive Abdullah Abdullah. Both leaders have reinforced their pledges for transparency and accountability.

As the ceremony concluded, General Campbell gave his final thoughts and assessment on the progress made by Afghan and international partners.

“Together, we have lifted the Afghan people out of the darkness of despair and given them hope for the future. We’re very proud of our relationship - a relationship built on trust, friendship, and shared interests. That trust and a common vision for a stable, secure, and unified Afghanistan fills me with confidence that we’ll continue to be successful. The road before us remains challenging, but we will triumph.”

As I have opined before we have had at worst a "score draw" with the Taliban and as I have also opined on another thread, I don't believe there is ever a total 'victory' or 'peace' just a pause from conflict over different beliefs; we need to look further than the ends of our noses! How many times have nations or religions been to war with the same old enemies? The only true and full victory is total annihilation of the other side - no survivors. That is never going to happen unless total war happens and the 'gloves come off' completely. Otherwise, it is a skirmish every 10, 20, 50 or 100 years or so before the next one breaks out. Just look at the Falklands - victory declared on Argentinian surrender in 1982, until we get the latest bunch of loons in power in South America and then the sabre starts to rattle again (luckily they are more skint than we are at present!).

So is it a:

Taliban win? No

ISAF win? No

Afghan people win? So far, if you count lifestyle improvements and the ability to educate. However, with idiots with beliefs like Boko Haram around, then even education is becoming an agenda item!

Finally, this is not the time to be mawkish and reflective of those that fell in conflict and think "was it all worth it?". It's not finished yet; indeed it might never be. Furthermore, the numbers that the press are so keen to quote never really reflect the true cost so far - some that died did so in accidents that could well have happened outside of HERRICK and then the critically injured in combat are so readily ignored. As ever, it is all 'spin' designed to alight arguments between the sides and sell the newspaper's articles that releases them.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

PS

F3WMB - a really good pal of mine is a living relative of William Brydon - pictured below. He was the sole survivor to ride into J-Bad from the retreat from Kabul (save for some hostages that were later returned). He was the Asst Surgeon for the 12,000 personnel that were eventually massacred on their way and a part of your picture. His life is believed to have been saved by a magazine that was tightly rolled in his hat that saved him from what would have been a fatal sabre cleave of his skull!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/25/article-2299043-18EBCBA6000005DC-824_634x441.jpg

PPS - I guess this was called a defeat even though we came back in force a few more times after that, took the ground, held it for a number of years and still retained the capability to take it back after retreat. I just don't consider that a 'loss' or 'defeat'.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

LJ - Afghan education
In 2009 approximately 22% – around 446,682 – of female students were considered long-term absentees.
While 2,281 schools have been built in the past two years, data from the Afghan Ministry of Education shows that 47% still have no actual building.
A new definition of "built", that. Still paid for, of course.
In the highly insecure Khost province, on the border with Pakistan, just 3 per cent of teachers are female. In neighbouring Paktika, this drops to just 1 per cent.
Girls may only be taught by female teachers, remember.

Secretary of State for Defence Liam Fox "We are not a global policeman. We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th-century country. We are there so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened."

In summary, the actual educational progress is a lot less than the headline figures, is dropping rapidly, and "we" will do nothing about that.

I give it 2 years till girls' school attendance is, outside Kabul, back where it started.


More here. It's bleak.
High Stakes: Girls' education in Afghanistan | Oxfam GB | Policy & Practice (http://policy-practice.oxfam.org.uk/publications/high-stakes-girls-education-in-afghanistan-125287)
Afghan girls' education backsliding as donors shift focus to withdrawal | Global development | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2011/feb/24/afghanistan-girls-education-report)
NATO Withdrawal Affects Development Programs in Afghanistan - BORGEN (http://www.borgenmagazine.com/nato-withdrawal-affects-development-programs-in-afghanistan/)

p.s. re your p.s. Interesting, I read up about 1842 after first seeing the Assistant Bursar's print. As to defeats; Afghanistan will not be a defeat until it's sponsoring/turning a blind eye to terrorism in the West again. Iraq is, however, already a defeat.
The Coalition mission was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (none there), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism(he never did; Daish bloody well are though), and to free the Iraqi people.(Ask the Yazidi about thatl)"

[Lima Juliet]

F3WMB - sadly, you may be right with a wider non-Afghan religious culture that can treat its females so very badly (almost like other 'posessions' like cattle). However, I take faith in the younger generation like Malala Yousafzai. If we start this education then we stand a chance of change.

Hell, when I look back at my UK female peers at school in the 80s they were the first of generation who were not supposed to find a nice man, have his babies, cook him dinner and be the perfect 'wifey'. My sister, who is 7 years older, fell into this expectation even though she was so much more capable of better.

The schooling is a part of the solution, as are the other lifestyle improvements. If we change the culture in the "13-Century country" then we stand a chance for longer term change - surely?

LJ

[The Sultan]

How could the Taliban have won anything when the US/Nato has lost nothing by wrapping up combat operations? They are still living in caves and ****ting where they eat. We won because we are not further wasting people and money after the primary mission of avenging 9-11 was completed. Yes we did spend a lot of needless effort when it could have been finished in 2002 at Tora Bora, but Cheney needed his "boogeyman" to justify the Iraq invasion so US troops were told to stand down and let BL escape.

As to now, fortunes have been spent to train "our" Afghans. From the experience in Iraq if they populate their forces with women, Shiite/Sunni non-Eunuchs, or import Kurds any Taliban effort will be defeated. If the Afghans will not defend themselves that is their problem as they have nothing we care about (China appears to have all of the rare earth contracts).

The Sultan

[Lima Juliet]

WMDs "none there" - really? WikiLeaks Show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq - With Surprising Results | WIRED (http://www.wired.com/2010/10/wikileaks-show-wmd-hunt-continued-in-iraq-with-surprising-results/)

:p

It was DESERT FOX that delayed Saddam's efforts and unfortunately we didn't know that until the 2003 invasion.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Really.
"any remaining chemical munitions in Iraq do not pose a militarily significant threat ... ISG has not found evidence to indicate that Iraq did not destroy its BW weapons or bulk agents".
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/index.html
Iraq WMD: Does the New York Times probe reflect what administration officials claimed? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/10/15/iraq-wmd-does-the-new-york-times-probe-reflect-what-administration-officials-claimed/)

Nobody is more in favour of girls' education than me. I taught exclusively girls for 6 years, and my Alma Mater directly sponsors several Afghani women a year to study there. Realistically though, the Taliban are agin it, and I sadly think it will be back to Square One in a couple of years.

[Lima Juliet]

Here's hoping we're both wrong on going backwards! Let's hope that they can rise above it all and see the benefit of equality in gender. It often does me good to consider that women didn't have a vote in the UK some 100 years ago and until recently my last 2 bosses in the RAF were female. We have come a long way in a short space of time and there is no reason, given the chance, that other cultures cannot have such a Herculean shift.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Oh, by the way, you and I will just have to disagree on the definition of "none there". In my mind they were there, but just not in the ready-to-use quantities that we believed they could have stockpiled after 1998 when DESERT FOX struck. Unfortunately, Saddam called Bliar's and Dubya's bluff and it cost him his country and life. Kicking out the inspection teams didn't help either!

LJ

[Roger the cabin boy]

'Given the chance' being the operative words chummy - let's see where we stand in a few months time. Meanwhile, back in what passes for Iraq....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Koran
Surat An-Nisa (The Women)
4.11
Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.
4:34
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.
Surat Al-Ahzab
33:33
And abide in your houses

Stay at home and do as you are bloody well told. Not a lot of hope in there, LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Bible

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)


There are many more. We managed to rise up and against this abhorrent nonsense, I'm hoping our fellow men can do so as well. It almost makes you believe that the Bible was translated by women-hating men - oh, it was!!!

LJ

[msbbarratt]

It takes 200, 300 years of blood sweat and tears to win this kind of thing.

It's difficult for western politicians to keep at it beyond the next election.

[melmothtw]

As in Vietnam and other conflicts, 'we' were defeated from within, with our media and plethora of do-gooders.

You can't win without the political will and support.

Absolute tosh!!! The media (in the UK at least) has been behind the military 100% throughout the war. You'll remember that is was the 'media' that publicized the issues with poor equipment, the snatch Land Rovers, and the lack of helicopters, and got something done about it. However, the media did have to walk the line between being supportive and being propagandists, which I think on the whole it achieved.

It was a failure to comprehend the enemy and to get the locals on-side, as well as piss poor planning, that did for us in both Afghanistan and Iraq

To compare the media coverage of Afghanistan with that of Vietnam is wrong and just lazy.

Edited to Add: On reflection, it is also wrong and lazy to ascribe the failure of the war in Vietnam to the media. In that the war, the media did its job and did it well. It was the political and military leadership that failed.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Indeed LJ.

Robert Graves' 'The Greek Myths' is a good read. He reckons the patriarchal Abrahamic religions are a reaction to the previous (pre-historic) matriarchal religions. Each year the queen swapped her partner & killed off the last one, which kind of explains the subsequent repression of women from any leadership roles.;)

It will take a long time, but I don't think it should involve much of our money, and it isn't worth the bones of a single Pomeranian Grenadier.

[Lima Juliet]

F3WMB - to coin a phrase from the Frogs "vive la egalite"

Egalitaranism is the way ahead and hopefully we'll see more of this as females are allowed to compete for British Army Infantry selection. Booties, Paras, Shakeys and Blades should be next. If you're good enough "you're in", if you're not, "you're out"; regardless of gender. :ok:

And let's not see anything of that 'postive discrimination' crap that we saw in the 90s for some female aircrew - fair selection, fair reward and taking the best should be equal.

LJ

[t43562]

Were the Romans defeated in Britain?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Not really, the empire just ran out of money;
or was that your point? ;)

[Lima Juliet]

Nah, the Romans never really left - the Roman Empire fell as we know it and became the Holy Roman Empire (State Church Of The Roman Empire (http://bswett.com/1998-05Church300.html)) over a period. There are many theories why the old Empire crumbled so fast - money, Visigoths, Barbarians, Christianity, overspending on the military or going bonkers due to lead poisoning (lead lined the aquaducts and wine vessels they drank from).

Anyway, the Holy Roman Empire made bigger in roads into Scotland and Ireland than the old Roman Empire ever did.

LJ

[t43562]

I just mean that the effect that they had on us is quite great - our alphabet, language, laws. They shaped Britain and other countries and eventually a renaissance did happen. Some of that was passed on again, second hand to still more places.

Their impact is still with us. So I think they were not defeated really and I think that the efforts made to staunch the wound that is e.g. Afghanistan are worth something and will have a lasting effect too. It doesn't mean that the outcome for Britain or the US will be ultimately desirable but in the same way that we can be somewhat glad the Romans existed and made an effort to civilise Britain, so will people in hundreds of years be glad that these two superpowers did their bit.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I don't think Boudicca thought the Romans a particularly civilising influence after she was flogged and her daughters raped. About 80,000 took her point, or the points of the spears of her warriors to be exact.
Her statue stands outside the Houses of Parliament, whereas no Roman ones do.

[Lima Juliet]

But there is an American and 2x South Africans, though! :p

Lincoln, Mandela and Smuts.

LJ

[flipflopman RB199]

LJ, F3WMB...

Any chance you pair could just get a room??

Here.... I've even picked a low price option for the pair of you...

The White Bull Inn, Coningsby - Restaurant Reviews, Phone Number & Photos - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g1060692-d4581452-Reviews-The_White_Bull_Inn-Coningsby_Lincolnshire_England.html)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Wouldn't be seen dead in the place, thanks. The Blue Bell was always worth the walk.

[Lima Juliet]

For boozing and a cuzzer it was always Woodhall Spa and Smarties for me...

There was a time when the White Hart hat interesting entertainment, though!

What's wrong with a bit of banter? Or is it cool to be 'ever so serious' these days?

LJ :ok:

[Bigbux]

Bloody Romans - what did they ever do for us?

[Sun Who]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Aqueduct_of_Segovia_08.jpg

[parabellum]

The Americans certainly didn't win in Vietnam

Militarily the USA did win in Vietnam, they had the North Vietnamese completely beaten when they pulled out. It was the totally corrupt South Vietnamese administration and upper echelons of the South Vietnamese army that folded and allowed the North to roll over them.

[Heathrow Harry]

the trouble was no-one convinced the N Vietnamese that they were beaten............

[Deepest Norfolk]

Same with the Taliban. Nobody told them they were beaten. As soon as we're all gone, they'll be back and Afghan will be back in the stone age again.

[rh200]

There's a simple reason for that, they are fighting a war of attrition, thats just a matter of holding out long enough for the other side to give in.

The west is a fast food, fast "x" society, as they say the west is weak, that is not a description of military strength.