BASKET V WINCH

[KPax]

Watching the Greek ferry incident I was wondering is there an advantage to having a basket rather than the winch that the RAF and RN SAR use.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Sproule Net has a great advantage when fishing bodies out of the water. We were told it was best for dead bodies; if you weren't dead you would be after you were netted.

[Haraka]

Indeed the Sproule net came in during 1955 on the Dragonfly specifically aimed at reducing the dangers inherent in winching, and the USN adopted a variant as late as 1964 apparently.
I defer to PN's more practical experience in this area as it helps explain a comment in "Westland 50":

"most R.A.F. pick-ups still involve sending down a crewman, on the principle that there is no substitute for a brain on the end of the hoisting cable"

NO : I am not going to get drawn in to that bun fight.

[leopold bloom]

Like most things in life there are advantages and disadvantages in using a basket instead of a winchman.
1. Storage space on the aircraft and the awkwardness of working in the cabin on recovery.
2. Survivor can fall out on the way up and/or coming in to the cabin.
3. Basket is fairly heavy and can blow around in the rotor wash/wind making it a hazard to the casualty and potentially getting entangled in ship's rigging.
4. No first aid skills.
5. Can't make tea/play uckers/abuse pilots. :ok:

[david parry]

Winch and strop all the time....double dispatcher, for those in trouble and worse:rolleyes:

[dragartist]

Espacenet - Bibliographic data (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20020213&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=GB&NR=2340101B&KC=B&ND=6)


Came across this crackpot idea a few years back. Hope the link works. I don't believe it ever got off the ground.


Winch works for me. Can you imagine the fight to get in the basket. Women and Children first!

[Pontius Navigator]

Just seen the video of a basket lift.

A winch and strip is a stressful way for lifting and an injured person should best be recovered in a stretcher. The basket lift showed a mother and child and was far less stressful.

For getting someone out of the water a strip beats net or basket. For lifting off a pitching ship a strip presents less hazard than a basket.

[TBM-Legend]

USCG uses a form of basket mostly...

What would they know some might say when they are the biggest "SAR" outfit around!

[Pontius Navigator]

TBM, horses for courses, the basket, net, strip, and jungle penetrated all have their uses.

[oxenos]

The Sproule net was introduced at a time when helicopters had very limited payloads.
Having the pilot fly and the nav acting as winchman had meant using a strop, which is not much use when the survivors are unconcious, injured or confused.
The obvious answer was to send down a crewman, but the weight of an extra crew member meant that one fewer of the survivors could be lifted per mission.
There were experiments where the nav went down as the dope on the rope, with the pilot both flying and working the winch, which was not satisfactory. The net was a way of scooping up a survivor who could not help himself, with the nav. acting as winch man. It was not ideal, and as helicopter payloads increased, a third crew menmber was carried.

[Halton Brat]

IIRC, the 1979 Fastnet yacht race disaster showed that winching up a survivor who had been immersed in the water for a protracted period could possibly instigate a cardiac arrest, if performed in a vertical posture using a strop. This is due to the sudden drop of hydrostatic pressure acting on the body when lifted clear of the water, which will put the heart under considerable stress. At least one man in the Fastnet race died in exactly these circumstances.

The basket lift, in a horizontal posture, greatly reduces the stress on the heart when lifting the casualty clear of the water. This could be crucial when dealing with injured/aged casualties in such situations.

HB

[Sun Who]

Halton Brat,

That's why casualties in the water are now recovered using the double-strop technique, thereby keeping the casualty supine.

Sun.
http://www.airborne-sys.com/files/image/large/helicopter_strops_4.jpg

[Halton Brat]

Thanks for the update, Sun.

HB

[Herod]

Gotta be the winch. No one has ever called me either a "stupid winch" or a "winch case". :ok:

[GreenKnight121]

The basket is still far superior for rescuing injured people.

Imagine the effect of the double-strop on someone with broken ribs, a shattered pelvis, back injury, etc.

[Sun Who]

Green Knight,

If someone has injuries such as you describe, then they're coming up in a stretcher. If however, they're in the water, as described by Halton Brat, they're coming up double strop.

I don't know if you've ever tried getting someone into a stretcher when they're in the water (I have) but it's nigh on impossible.

I've used all 3; basket, double strop and stretcher. They all have a role to play.

Sun.

[Oldsarbouy]

Back in the 70's we at Chivenor were tasked with trialling the same type of basket as used in the Apollo Space program the idea being that winchman was inside the basket secured on a 6' extension lead. he would then be lowered to the casualty in the water who he would drag into the net. As a winchman I could see the folly of such an idea so persuaded the winch operator to act as winchman. We headed out to Bideford Bay where the usual Atlantic 30' swell was breaking and lowered the contraption complete with navigator/winchman to just above the water. Unfortunately the rogue bigger wave appeared and contraption was overwhelmed! Emergency Up Up Up was applied and nearly drowned crewmember recovered to the trusty Whirlwind followed by transit back to base and the sending back of contraption with our best wishes but no thanks.
Having trialled many stretchers back in the day the Stokes Litter takes some beating for lifting injured casualties but the NATO strop has to be the finest and simplest method of all. The Horse collar as used by many agencies comes close but needs some form of toggle to stop casualties falling out during the lift. The basket as used in the latest videos is OK but its disadvantages have already been stated.
What was surprising in the videos was no head protection for the winchman, only lifting one casualty at a time using the horse collar and no highline used to expedite the rescue. Maybe they need an ex UK instructor!

[dragartist]

Are GQ the only people to make this sort of kit?
I am half certain I came across a Danish outfit when I last went to Helitech. they appeared a bit more innovative. My interest at the time was fast roping/ extraction not the same as rescue I know.

[Older and Wiser]

Danish Company are LiteFlite for rescue gear.

Short Haul, Extraction and Roping, Abseil take a look at Air Rescue Systems in Oregon airrescuesystems.com

[TBM-Legend]

Check out the Ruskie Mil-17 rescue kit:


Peruvian Army?s new Mi-171Sh fleet reaches 8 | AIRheads?FLY (http://airheadsfly.com/2014/12/30/peruvian-armys-new-mi-171sh-fleet-reaches-8/)

[Cornish Jack]

'Our' (i.e. RAF SAR) version of the net was the Sproule net. During my (longish) time in role, we never used it for live survivors - only body recovery. It was extremely awkward to carry and rig and pickups were hazardous to the survivor!! The sea anchor attached to stabilize it in the water was ineffective and, other than in calm surface conditions, the net frame would start to 'walk' with the centre of the front bar at survivor head height - not recommended and (as we were told) caused injury to a WRNS volunteer during trials. As has been said, having a sentient being (more or less!) on the wire is very much preferable:ok:

[Oldsarbouy]

Remember training with the Sproule net at Chiv, hilarious. One day the unexpected call came from local police to see if we could recover a body from the river in Barstaple so said net loaded into Whirlwind and we set off only to find the body was floating underneath power cables! Unable to winch meant a quick swim and body towed to river bank. Helped recover body up the bank by Nav on first job, not nice as body had been in river for many days!