Falklands defence review after military deal between Russia and Argentina

[Wig Wag]

Express:

Falklands defence review after military deal between Russia and Argentina
Falkland Islands defence review after military deal between Russia and Argentina | UK | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/549006/Falkland-Islands-defence-review-after-military-deal-between-Russia-and-Argentina)

DEFENCES on the Falklands are being reviewed after it emerged Russia plans to offer Argentina long-range bombers.

. . . The aircraft, which Moscow will swap for beef and wheat, would be able to mount air patrols over Port Stanley. The deal involves a lease/lend of 12 Sukhoi Su-24 supersonic, all-weather attack aircraft.

They are ageing but Nato still regards what it codenames “Fencers” as “super-fighters”, with their 2,000-mile range and laser-guided missiles.

[Willard Whyte]

Good job MoD invested in some long range SAMs.

[Mogwi]

Su 24, nicknamed the Bencer because it was never a proper fighter. Would be nice to splash one to make up my 5!

[Pontius Navigator]

I imagine that it is not only HMG that will be looking at options.

[Davef68]

Indeed, some concerned watchers from over the Andes I would imagine

[TBM-Legend]

Russian expansion of influence into Sth America...RasPutin leading the charge.

Fencer is comparable to the F-111.

[VinRouge]

It's ok, as long as the U.S. maintain the house of Saud by controlling the subhuman islamist scum North of the Saudi border, thereby keeping the Saudi government in power, the oil price will be kept in check....

I think after 3 trillion plus spent in Iraq, we have finally leaned from that 2000 year old dead Chinese bloke.... Win all without fighting.

My prediction is Russia will be on the bones of its arse by June next year. Hopefully having a few of its ships repo'ed in port like the argies did a while back....

I would love to see how the Argentinian gubbermint plan to pay for said flankers... Unless they have some spare cadburys gold coins left over from this years Christmas stocking.

[GroundStart]

Anybody going to make any comparison with the Typhoon v SU24. And what the outcome would be. I strongly suspect the Typhoon would come out on top. But its the Argentine special forces that would be the concern. If they managed to get ashore and disabled what we have, could make things very interesting.

[Wrathmonk]

VinRouge

I would love to see how the Argentinian gubbermint plan to pay for said flankers

From the link in #1

President Putin’s visit to Argentina in July laid the groundwork for exchanging Russian military hardware for wheat, beef and other goods Moscow needs due to EU food embargoes

[Richard G]

Ah whats the fuss about - a dozen not that much of a fright (by the time they learn how to operate them, even with "advisors" and taking into account they will have say no more than 8 operational at any one time, probably less...), only gets exciting if they carry on a follow on order to lease say 24 Su-30 :ok:

[newt]

Put Russian pilots in them and it may be a different story! This all stems from the US poking Putin in the eye with a big stick ie oil price! It's going to get much more difficult to see where the real threat is coming from!

But I believe it is coming!:ugh:

[Royalistflyer]

By the time they've got them operational, do you suppose that we might have a carrier with F35s on it that we could station there ........ no ........ s'pose not....... sorry.

[Willard Whyte]

The biggest concern is not necessarily the delivery vehicle, but the stuff that hangs off the hard points. I'd be worried if the arms shipment might include the likes of AS-17, AS-13 & AS-11, for example - all carried by Soviet 24s.

[esa-aardvark]

Hello, just finished reading 'Ghost Force' by Patrick Robinson.
A rather far stretched book about Russia helping Argentina
to invade the Falklands. Fiction of course.

[TBM-Legend]

Remember Pearl Harbor and Singapore chaps...

[Thelma Viaduct]

Seems a plausible future situation, enough agro to be noticed, but not enough to start WW3.

[Lima Juliet]

What like Crimea or Eastern Ukraine? Surely not... :ugh:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Ghost Force (2006) - Ghost Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Force)

I do wish authors would stop giving the bad guys ideas...:}

LJ

[Coochycool]

The moment they made a move, they'd fly home to find their airfields had just been SLCMed.

Aint gona happen.

We should be more annoyed at their paltry dosh however slimly bailing out Putin

[LowObservable]

FWIW, the story is being PISTON EXGREATHEIGHT, as they used to say, in the Argentine press.

[rh200]

A lot of the issues with regards to the Falklands would go away if you just made sure it was included as part of the UK in NATO. I think I got that right, NATO doesn't get involved or something along those lines??? Obviously a bit harder in practice (dam politics), but it would mean Argentina wouldn't bother militarily anymore.

[melmothtw]

A lot of the issues with regards to the Falklands would go away if you just made sure it was included as part of the UK in NATO. I think I got that right, NATO doesn't get involved or something along those lines??? Obviously a bit harder in practice (dam politics), but it would mean Argentina wouldn't bother militarily anymore.

Then what happens to NATO when Turkey includes northern Cyprus?

[antisthenes]

Story was posted on the Argentine equivalent of April 1st!

[melmothtw]

The Argentines invaded on our equivalent of April 1st!! (at least, that was the plan).

I see a lot of Argentine posters on the interweb saying this Su-24 story was all a hoax, but I don't buy it. What's 'funny' about getting Su-24s? Where's the 'joke'? If the story was that they are getting Tu-95s, then ok, ha ha, but Su-24s? It's unlikely but not so incredible.

[The B Word]

Slight thread drift

Re: Cyprus Turkey to host Greek fighters for the first time at NATO's 2015 'Tiger Meet' - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/46696/turkey-to-host-greek-fighters-for-the-first-time-at-nato-s-2015-tiger-meet)

The B Word

[rh200]

Then what happens to NATO when Turkey includes northern Cyprus?

You can hardly compare Cyprus with the Falklands, well I guess you could, but its a p!ss poor comparison. Just how long has the Falklands belonged to the UK, just how many people their define themselves as such? I think self determination would apply there.

[melmothtw]

How many people in northern Cyprus define themselves as Turkish? Can go around the houses all day with this one...

[Whenurhappy]

A lot of the issues with regards to the Falklands would go away if you just made sure it was included as part of the UK in NATO. I think I got that right, NATO doesn't get involved or something along those lines??? Obviously a bit harder in practice (dam politics), but it would mean Argentina wouldn't bother militarily anymore.

When the North Atlantic Treaty was agreed in 1949, UK and France, inter alia, had considerable number of Colonial possessions, that would have impossible to have protected under NATO. Moreover, the US was virulently anti-colonial and it would have been very unlikely that they would have gone to the direct aid of a NATO member in a Colony; Indo-China/Vietnam (5 years later) notwithstanding.

[Wrathmonk]

How many people in northern Cyprus define themselves as Turkish

Not many I suspect given the Turkish armed forces conscription policy ;)

Also, isn't Northern Cyprus becoming the bolt hole of choice for those from the EU who have been 'naughty' and seeking to avoid extradition?

[Whenurhappy]

If you are a conscript in Turkey, expect to spend a fair amount of your time in the unrecognised Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

[GroundStart]

Just been looking at WW post #13. You would be right to be concerned if these items came as part of the package. Especially if they are fully functional and ready to go.

[air pig]

Su 24 Fencer combat radius lo lo lo 350 miles, but on the other side, an SSN with cruise missiles for retaliation, maybe no airfield to return home to.

I suspect that discrete words would be had via contact through back doors at the UN as happened during GW 1 between James Baker and Tariq Aziz. about the use of CBW.

[Bigbux]

It would have to be one hell of a persistent agent to be of any use in FI.

[air pig]

It's in relation to the threat that Iraq potentially posed during GW1 with having used CW during the attack on Halabja using Sarin and ?Mustard. The Americans from what I have read were basically saying use CW and Baghdad becomes glass.

[AnglianAV8R]

I believe that Maggie (RIP) made it quite clear that nuclear weapons were an option if UK Forces were attacked with chemical or biological weapons :ok:

[air pig]

Our American cousins said the same thing.

In GW1, the only reason we went SCUD hunting was that a) Iraq started firing SCUDs at Israel, b) the Israeli air force were up and ready to attack with conventional weapons but were quite prepared to invoke their Samson Option and had uploaded 'cough cough' nuclear weapons if any CBRN material hit Israel.

Schwartzkopf in GW 1 was not an advocate of special forces due to previous experience was persuaded or even had his arm twisted by the UK force commander Peter de la Balliere to use special forces in the western deserts of Iraq. This let loose British SAS (back to their original roots in the desert) and British SBS, US Delta and Seal teams to go SCUD and communication site hunting.

[Lima Juliet]

Surely Sir John Major was PM in 1990? So how would Maggie have directed the use of buckets of sunshine during GW1 in 1990/91?

:cool:

[parabellum]

But its the Argentine special forces that would be the concern. If they managed to get ashore and disabled what we have, could make things very interesting.

Argentinian special forces might do some damage on land but they would have their work cut out to disable the RN ships and their AA weaponry, I would have thought?

[Older and Wiser]

Leon it is clear that Anglian is talking about 1982 and the Falklands conflict!
Not the'90s and GW1!

[vascodegama]

Thatcher resigned in Nov 1990, admittedly not during the shooting bit but certainly during the crisis. No doubt she had a strong opinion on these things.

[AndySmith]

I also believe the Fencer sale is a hoax. 28th december is the "dia de los inocentes" in the spanish speaking world - their equivalent to april fools day.

Having said that, i have absolutely no doubt that The Soviets were providing satellite intelligence to the Argentine Air Force during the war, and there is also the Invincible torpedo incident from the 5th May that has yet to be fully explained. I have spoken to eye witness of this, and they were pretty sure the saw a torpedo wake, and Brillants sonar operator was very convinced by what he heard......no argentine subs were in the vicinity of the CBG at the time.

[melmothtw]

I also believe the Fencer sale is a hoax. 28th december is the "dia de los inocentes" in the spanish speaking world - their equivalent to april fools day.

As I commented in an earlier post....

I see a lot of Argentine posters on the interweb saying this Su-24 story was all a hoax, but I don't buy it. What's 'funny' about getting Su-24s? Where's the 'joke'? If the story was that they are getting Tu-95s, then ok, ha ha, but Su-24s? It's unlikely but not so incredible.

Surely the point of a hoax is for it to be funny, no? Where's the joke in this?

[Lima Juliet]

Leon it is clear that Anglian is talking about 1982 and the Falklands conflict!
Not the'90s and GW1!

So why is the post entitled "Baghdad glazed". Or have they renamed Buenos Aires!

LJ :cool:

[Willard Whyte]

Surely the point of a hoax is for it to be funny, no? Where's the joke in this?

We don't exactly have a stellar record of such high jinx, not since '67 anyway.

[Bigbux]

Surely the point of a hoax is for it to be funny, no? Where's the joke in this?

1) It pokes fun at the British by boasting about a new and powerful ally
2) creates disinformation which has to be considered at high level - possibly divert funds
3) keeps on-message about retaking the Malvinas (and forgetting domestic issues).
4) Ingratiates yourself to your new powerful best friend by creating mischief for the British in retaliation for their meddling over Ukraine

What could be funnier? :E

[Hawk98]

On the subject of the Falklands, when the Sea Kings are retired next year, will anything replace them? I'd imagine CSAR would be beneficial considering the potential of it actually being required, or will it just get privatised as well?

[LowObservable]

They fooled parts of the British media (including Jane's) so whoever started it probably had a larf.

Humour is in the eye and ear of the beholder. Some people think clowns are funny and some think they are creepy, and Russell Brand has made squillions allegedly being funny. So, just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it's not a hoax, or that you have no sense of humour.

[DeafOldFart]

The Argentinians did not have much luck when buying a used cruiser from the Americans, even if it had a good pedigree from surviving Pearl Harbour..... maybe they threw away the lucky rabbit foot.
History is littered with large countries selling arms to small countries, then charging exorbitant prices for spare parts. Given the Russian need for currency of any sort, wonder how much it would take to keep Fencers airworthy!!
Rules of war... don't mess with the Balkan countries, do not try land assaults on Moscow, and do not buy anything from the Russians except Kalashnikovs

[Trim Stab]

The moment they made a move, they'd fly home to find their airfields had just been SLCMed

Including all civil airfields? I don't think so.

[melmothtw]

The UK media is reporting that the MOD is to hold a review of Falklands defence on the back of these reports. Not sure how that means they have been 'fooled'.

[Sun Who]

On the subject of the Falklands, when the Sea Kings are retired next year, will anything replace them? I'd imagine CSAR would be beneficial considering the potential of it actually being required, or will it just get privatised as well? They're being replaced by Bristows aircraft. The FI SAR requirement forms part of the newly, completely civilianised, SAR contract being let by the DfT, administered by the MCA and won by Bristows. Military SAR in the FI and the UK is due to end in 2017 (I think).

Wrt CSAR, the UK has no CSAR capability (as discussed many times on this forum) although it has 'dabbled' in the past.

Sun.

[inputshaft]

Sorry Sun

You've got that completely wrong. The FI SAR requirement will be nothing to do with MCA/Bristow. The contract to replace the MPA SAR Sea Kings was recently won by BIH, due to start in 2016.

[Sun Who]

Inputshaft,

Apologies, I made an assumption based on partial knowledge. You are of course right, thanks for the correction.

I guess my main point stands though, it's being civilianised.

Sun.

[inputshaft]

No problem.

There's an ongoing confusion about this because there actually IS a Bristow SAR cab heading down there at this very time. But it's part of a short-term oil exploration contract that Bristow has for the next year or so. It will be there specifically to support the offshore operation, in simple terms due to expanded range and payload requirements, with no overland commitment, then removed with the rest of the operation at the end of 2015.

Inputshaft

[Stanwell]

melmoth,
Like you, I'm not sure how funny this is - considering that both the Ruskies and Argies are fiscal basket-cases.

[TBM-Legend]

Remember "birds of a feather......"!

[parabellum]

History is littered with Airbus Industries selling aircraft to small countries, then charging exorbitant prices for spare parts.

Just changed the original a little.

[ORAC]

melmoth, Like you, I'm not sure how funny this is - considering that both the Ruskies and Argies are fiscal basket-cases.

Streetwise Professor: Will Bomb for Food (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=9054#sthash.Ex07GQoX)

Russia is leasing 12 SU-24 swing wing Fencer fighter-bomber aircraft to Argentina. Argentina is paying with . . . food, specifically beef and wheat. The 1970s-era SU-24 was, um, very similar to the US’s 1960s-era F-111, which the US retired in 1996. (Seriously: look at pictures of the Soviet SU-24 and the American F-111 and it’s hard to tell the difference.)

The UK is unsettled by the transaction, because the jets could threaten the Falklands. And of course Argentina is in such great shape that it can easily afford a few wars of choice. After all, the last one went so, so well.

But look at it this way. If Argentina prevails this time over an emaciated British military, it will conquer islands with 500,000 sheep. Just think of how many weapons the Argentines will be able to lease from Russia in exchange for all that lamb, hogged, mutton and wool. Chile, look out!

I have another suggested trade between the two countries. They should just exchange their currencies. That way, each can obtain more varied wallpaper.

So no, Russia is not isolated. It is a fully paid member of the Drowning Men’s Club, whose desperate members grab onto one another for dear life as they go under once, twice, and yet again. Look at its economic and political allies, such as they are. Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Syria. Decrepit losers, every one. Hell, even Belarus is looking for ways to escape the embrace of a drowning Russia.

This deal is so revealing. Russia, once the world’s breadbasket, can’t feed itself. But what does it have to trade? Decrepit military equipment from another era, and a derivative design largely lifted from the evil Americans at that. When “Will Bomb For Food” is only a slightly exaggerated characterization of a country’s comparative advantage, it says everything you need to know about Russia’s economy 23 years after the end of the Soviet Union and 15 years after the advent of Putinism.

[CAW]

Fantasy.

Marco just had a few much-too-warm beers and woke up remembering that he had to turn some article in before New Years Eve... so he came up with this.

Argentina is a british enemy, Russia used to be one and it appears like it´s coming back for more... 2 +2 = 4.

It always pays off well when you face "the Axis of Evil", whatever countries you choose to include in them.

Does anyone one disccuss that the real saviour of the Royak Navy was Galtieri?

Cheers!!

[Heathrow Harry]

Helicopter for rig support may be there for a while - I think they have quite a number of wells planned and Sea Lion development is underway

Another question is will they reinstate the regular bi-weekly Gatwick- Mt Pleasant charter for the oil field trash changeout?

Norwegian rig so the boys will expect a regular (and short) shift aboard

[Fareastdriver]

Helicopter for rig support may be there for a while - I think they have quite a number of wells planned and Sea Lion development is underway

Not if the price of oil is going the way it is at the moment.

[peter we]

I think this story has probably been instigated by the Russians. They are desperate to scare the West to show that they are a relevant force in the world. Some chance.

[Marcantilan]

First of all, the history is a nonsense. The local MoD was contacted by the press and they denied the history at all.

Secondly, my bet is the history was originated INSIDE the UK. After the defense cuts, someone needed the excuse to buy more planes, improve ships and so on. And with this fantasy scenario (making the proper headlines), he has the excuse...

Finally, surely I could exchange a couple of cows for a Fencer.

Regards!

[fergineer]

Peter we the Russians have much much more hardware and manpower that the UK so they can and will show their strengths.

[Stanwell]

Umm, I and others, don't see it as showing strength at all.
Poorly thought-out political game playing is closer to the mark, I think.

[Bigbux]

Good ruse though. Precisely the material that should be discussed on a Rumour Network :D

[CAW]

When news like this one make the headlines and discussions such as this one fire up, I wonder if the standar british reader knows that Argentina has 2/3 of UK´s population, 1/4 of its GDP and that given that GDP as a whole, it spends roughly 1/3 of what the british taxpayers commit to their armed forces.

For the FY 2010-2011, the total expenditure on the BFFI reached something like £75 million, according to this: http://www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDwQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliament.uk%2Fbriefing-papers%2FSN06201.pdf&ei=CUirVLWFPMOegwT1toDoBw&usg=AFQjCNGbRrGFReDQRMiyKrLoQhOt_bT2DQ&bvm=bv.82001339,d.eXY&cad=rja

Could anyone seriously think that a country that considers £2000 million to be a reasonably high figure for their Armed Forces to spend throughout a whole 12-month-year is really a threat to the islanders?

The answer, my friends, my answer at least, is not blowing in the wind, but written in the press:

Cameron: Defence Spending Could be Cut | Forces TV (http://forces.tv/01583914)

To settle it straight: rumors of defense-spending cuts? Oh, well... just shake the money -maker and write a few bombastic titles on the south-atlantic islands...

Cheers.
Christian

[Heathrow Harry]

drilling rig is contracted - cancelling the contract means you pay the same but get nothing for it

[Phileas Fogg]

drilling rig is contracted - cancelling the contract means you pay the same but get nothing for it

A bit like the Nimrod MRA4 then? :)

[KenV]

This all stems from the US poking Putin in the eye with a big stick ie oil price!


Really? How so?

[Bigbux]

Quote:
This all stems from the US poking Putin in the eye with a big stick ie oil price!
Really? How so?


I thought it was the Saudis that really brought the pain - though well done to the States for bustin' up the cartel with a bit of competition. I'm sure it had something to do with the decision.

[KenV]

Peter we the Russians have much much more hardware and manpower that the UK so they can and will show their strengths.


A big difference is that the UK is a member of NATO and does not just rely on its own military for defense. The UK can rely on the entire NATO defense structure. Russia on the other hand has few friends and essentially has to go it alone.

[ORAC]

UK Bolsters Falkland Defenses to Counter Argentine Air Ambitions (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/americas/2015/01/11/uk-falklands-leapp-air-defense-argentinia/21497721/)

LONDON — British military capability planners are eyeing a major improvement to ground-based air defenses in the Falkland Islands amid continuing signs that Argentina is looking to update its Air Force with modern strike aircraft.

Argentina and the UK fought a short but bloody war over the British territory in 1982. The dispute received new life recently by Argentinean President Cristina Kirchener's launching a diplomatic war of words in an effort to eject the British. Now it has emerged that the British have been planning to replace the aging ground-based system on the Falklands with a package including a battle management command, control, communications, computers and intelligence (BMC4I) system, a new missile and a radar.

As recently as December, unconfirmed reports emerged that Buenos Aires was in talks with the Russians over the possible lease of a squadron's worth of Sukhoi Su-24 Fencer attack jets in a move that would threaten Britain's control of the skies locally. The reports drew a response from the UK Defence Ministry that it would adjust defense capabilities to the appropriate level to address any threats to the disputed islands, which the Argentinians refer to as the Islas Malvinas. Britain has maintained forces on the island since the war. The force includes four Typhoon jets, Rapier missiles, naval assets and around 1,200 troops. Last year, the British spent £63 million (US $95 million) for defense of the Falklands.

"We are currently assessing options to meet the requirement for future [short-range air defense, ground-based air defense]," an MoD spokeswoman said. The BMC4I system will be "linked to the FLAADS(L) [future local area air defense system (land)] missile and launcher. This includes coupling to [Giraffe-Agile Multibeam] radars," she said.

The spokeswoman said it was not possible to say when the Falklands system would enter service, as the project, which is fully funded, is in only its assessment phase. However, she was able to give some other key milestones for the project. "Invitation to negotiate for the BMC4I system is forecast for summer 2015 and contract award is expected in summer 2016," she said. "Our overall military posture in the South Atlantic is based on regular assessments of the threat and the Falkland Islands remain well-defended."

A BMCI system similar to the likely Falkland's requirement entered service with the British Army last October. The system, known as Land Environment Air Picture Provision (LEAPP), was built by Lockheed Martin UK in a £100 million deal the company signed with the MoD in 2008. Industry executives said the limited number of LEAPP systems delivered may be the reason the MoD is pursuing a further procurement for the Falklands.

Richard Muir, the business development director at the Lockheed Martin UK Ampthill site, which leads the LEAPP work, said the system could provide air-space management and surveillance from five kilometers to significantly beyond 100 kilometers. "The range of LEAPP is only limited by the radar," he said.

Despite LEAPP coming into service only in the last few months, the MoD spokeswoman said the BMC4I element of the system would be competed rather than just tacked on to the end of the LEAPP contract. FLAADS(L) and the Saab-supplied Giraffe are mandated though. Certainly, Lockheed Martin UK will bid. Other possible contenders include MBDA and Saab.

The Giraffe radar is already part of the LEAPP capability, although at the moment the sharp end of the system is provided by MBDA's aging Rapier missile. That's due to change around the end of the decade. The MoD spokeswoman revealed the ministry had signed a demonstration and manufacture deal with MBDA in late December for a replacement of the Rapier, which is FLAADS(L). The land weapon is a derivative of the missile company's common anti-air modular missile (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(missile_family)); a naval version known as Sea Ceptor, which uses the same missile, has already been ordered for Royal Navy Type 23 frigates. Argentina's neighbor, Brazil, and New Zealand have also ordered the naval weapon system.........

[Hangarshuffle]

In simple terms, why is the price of oil per barrel declining now and so rapidly? The average man in the street (and I am he), thinks its because US and Canadian Oil fields are now well on line and in full production, aided by the now on line development of Shale Oil and Oil Tars. This is the cause of the very recent decline in price, yes?
Also full production elsewhere around the world (West Africa in particular).
Plus full unlimited production in Saudi and MENA.
Plus Russia.
plus a relatively mild winter in the northern hemisphere? Is it simply now supply is at maximum capacity and in healthy competition for best price for the consumer?
Any industry experts, is that it?

[ORAC]

Any industry experts, is that it?

Streetwise Professor: The Oil Price Decline: No Conspiracy Theories Need Apply (http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=9051)

[LowObservable]

The Su-24s-for-Argentina story is lacking three elements.

Peter Cushing, a stake and a mallet.

Argentina is not going to get strike-fighter aircraft that can mount an increased threat to the Falklands because (1) they can't afford to buy them, (2) they can't afford to maintain them and (3) most people won't provide them.

In any event, FLAADS-L + Giraffe-AMB + BMC4I is much too far out to respond to any immediate crisis. But could it possibly be that the system's advocates would like to get it solidly funded in order to catch up with IRIS-T SLM and the various Israeli offerings?

[melmothtw]

Argentina is not going to get strike-fighter aircraft that can mount an increased threat to the Falklands because (1) they can't afford to buy them, (2) they can't afford to maintain them and (3) most people won't provide them.

1. They won't be buying them - the story states that Russia would lease them.
2. They wouldn't have to maintain them - I'd imagine that support would be included in any leasing arrangement.
3. Most people won't have to provide them, only Russia.

Having said that, I do agree that a strike aircraft such as the Su-24 does not really fit in with Argentina's requirements for an air defence fighter.

[LowObservable]

Finding experienced WSOs could be a problem.

[Bastardeux]

In simple terms, why is the price of oil per barrel declining now and so rapidly? The average man in the street (and I am he), thinks its because US and Canadian Oil fields are now well on line and in full production, aided by the now on line development of Shale Oil and Oil Tars. This is the cause of the very recent decline in price, yes?
Also full production elsewhere around the world (West Africa in particular).
Plus full unlimited production in Saudi and MENA.
Plus Russia.
plus a relatively mild winter in the northern hemisphere? Is it simply now supply is at maximum capacity and in healthy competition for best price for the consumer?
Any industry experts, is that it

Saudi are purposely keeping production high as demand has waned from China; it's all an attempt to push the shale fields out of business.

[barry lloyd]

Let's just imagine for a moment that the story is true:

Counter-trade for aircraft isn't new. Hawker-Siddeley sold 748s to Aerolineas Argentinas for corned beef long before most people could point to the Falklands on a map.

Most of Russia's wheat used to come from the Ukraine. The yellow in the Ukraine flag represents wheat. Vlad is probably looking for an alternative source. Their beef generally comes from the US and Australia, neither of whom are best friends with Mother Russia at the moment, so they will be looking for an alternative supply for that, too.

The Argies would welcome a (slightly) more modern addition to their geriatric air force from whatever source and they aren't going to get it from any of the usual suspects. (It might also give the western manufacturers an opportunity to sell some new(er) aircraft to their neighbours on the other side of the Andes).

If I were Vladimir Putin, I would see this as a perfect way of extracting some revenge against the UK. Give the bullets (as it were) for someone else to fire and throw up your hands if they're used in the wrong way. Even if they were never used in anger, they would provide a nuisance factor - rather like the Bears which seem to enjoy flying around the edges of NATO airspace...

[LowObservable]

People. This was the Latin American equivalent of April Fool. Can we just kill it?

http://www.blackgate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/dracula-58-van-helsing-stakes-lucy1.jpg

[Bannock]

Argentina Ramping up as we dumb down - 1982 all over again ?

Argentina set to sign deal for Chinese corvettes

Interesting about the focus on ASW,

Visiting Beijing between Feb. 3-5, President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner of Argentina is set to sign an agreement with China to increase the military-to-military cooperation between two nations, according to the UK-based Jane's Defence Weekly.
Under the agreement, China North Industries Corporation will help Argentina produce a version of the VN1 wheeled armored personnel carrier, while China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation will help develop various types of naval ship.
China is understood to have introduced five of its P18 export corvettes to Argentina. A source from the Argentine government said the vessels are estimated to cost US$50 million each.
Known as the Malvinas-class after the Argentine name for the Falkland Islands, the five offshore patrol vessels each carry a 76 mm main gun, two 30 mm cannon, eight anti-ship missiles and two triple torpedo launchers. The 1,800-tonne ship can also carry a medium-sized helicopter. Argentina has requested a larger flight deck to handle its Sea King helicopters and towed sonar to increase the vessel's anti-submarine capability. Two of the corvettes will be built in China while the other three will be co-produced in Argentina. The P18s may be delivered started in 2017 according to Jane's.
If the agreement is signed as expected, it should be considered a major step in Argentina's efforts to revive its military power with help from China. The agreement may also help China open a new market to export its military aircraft.
Source: China Times.

Also interesting is the rapid delivery dates mentioned.

[Heathrow Harry]

talks about talks...............

China to supply Argentina five "Malvinas Class" offshore patrol vessels ? MercoPress (http://en.mercopress.com/2015/02/05/china-to-supply-argentina-five-malvinas-class-offshore-patrol-vessels)

MP is quite good on the Argentinians

" Since the 1982 Falklands War, China has expressed its support for Argentina's continued claims over the Falklands, which Beijing compares to its claim over Taiwan. However, China's willingness to accept commodity payments to finance initial loans that fund military sales has been key to its military sales success in Argentina.

In 2011 the Fábrica Argentina de Aviones (Argentine Aircraft Factory: FAdeA) reached an agreement to start co-producing China's Changhe Z-11 light helicopter. Then, in June 2013, FAdeA sources told IHS Jane's that talks over co-production of the Chengdu FC-1 lightweight jet fighter had occurred over the previous two years.


This option appears to have been lost as Argentina has tried and failed to purchase retired Dassault Mirage F1 fighters from Spain, then refurbished Israeli Aircraft Industry Kfir fighters and, in late 2014, Saab Gripen fighters co-produced in Brazil.


However, the new Argentine-Chinese defense agreement could revive prospects for combat aircraft co-operation. In addition to the FC-1 fighter, China could offer low-cost combat-capable supersonic lead-in trainers like the Guizhou JL-9G/FTC-2000G or the Hongdu L-15."

[Bannock]

Maybe we should be buying from China also. We can call them Thatcher Class. We are paying £348 million (US $584 million) for three OPVs armed with nothing more than a spud gun.

BAE, UK Government Settle Agreement on New Patrol Vessels | Defense News | defensenews.com (http://archive.defensenews.com/article/20140812/DEFREG01/308120013/BAE-UK-Government-Settle-Agreement-New-Patrol-Vessels)

Old rubber face Kircher is getting 5 for $50 mill each and packing more heat than a Type 23.:{

[Heathrow Harry]

they're purely to keep people in work

but in general we never seem to be able to get as many armaments on a vessel as other people

[Bannock]

"they're purely to keep people in work"

If thats the case how about this.
Option A - Buy 6 armed to the teeth foreign built OPVs/Corvettes for about $300 million.
That leaves $284 million in the pot. Bus the ship yard workers the 45 mins to Rosyth and put them to work on the Carriers. Net result -twice as many OPVs, Carriers delivered early, skilled workforce retained, and money left in the Jar to pay for the Navy s Increased need to fund more Flight deck cocktail parties every weekend.

Option B -Buy 6 armed to the teeth foreign built OPVs/Corvettes for about $300 million. Give each BAE shipworker a mega golden hand shake and tell them to do one. With the remaining $200 million give it to India to pay towards their P8 MPA program. Simples

[melmothtw]

So to those who dismissed the proposed Su-24 deal between Russia and Argentina as a Latin American April Fools, any suggestions as to how/why it's come up again?

Argentina and Russia In Strategic Partnership Deal (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/163080/russia-may-sell-12-su_24-fencers-to-argentina.html)

[Frostchamber]

Probably because the story continues to chug along in much the same vein, and the phrase "Among them could potentially be a deal for..." suggests that substance-wise things remain pretty much where they were. I've not been one putting this in the April Fool category, but I'll take more interest if and when the fine words show real signs of translating into buttered parsnips.

[Gsxr600]

Totally off topic but I came across an article somewhere that Argentina reached advanced stages in buying 12 used Vulcan bombers in 1978, but it was blocked at the last minute. The irony is amazing.

[CAW]

They were actually two Vulcan bombers.

The british files that show the interest of the argentinean air force have been uploaded to the web for no less than three years now.

No deals have been sealed in Russia this time. Fear not.

[Gsxr600]

CAW, can you recall where you saw that, I only read about it on a museum website which was only about a one sentence comment, and was interested in knowing a bit more about it?

[CAW]

CAW, can you recall where you saw that

Sure, my friend. Here it is:

Reemplazo de los legendarios Canberra | Página 4 | Foros Zona Militar (http://www.zona-militar.com/foros/threads/reemplazo-de-los-legendarios-canberra.30269/page-4)

Page 4, post 69.

:ok:

[ShotOne]

If the Chinese are prepared to accept payment in corned beef, then good luck to them. If the Argentine treasury was given a dollar for every speculative story about a new fighter/warship they might have enough money to keep their existing ships from the repo-man.

[Gsxr600]

Sure, my friend. Here it is:

Reemplazo de los legendarios Canberra | Página 4 | Foros Zona Militar

Page 4, post 69.

Thanks, that's a very interesting read. They were actually after 6 to 12 Vulcan in 1982 of all years. Imagine if they had been sold them, might have made a difference to the outcome of the war and who knows they might still be in service.

[Fitter2]

Imagine if they had been sold them, might have made a difference to the outcome of the war and who knows they might still be in service.

Yes, we might have had to use what we had (Nimrod, better systems, more range and sensible bombload) for Black Buck instead. I would have been interested to hear the results of a Sea Harrier v Vulcan combat.....:D

[AndySmith]

I believe that the events were already overtaking the introduction of the Vulcan into Argentine service, had agreement been reached.

This weekend I will be seeing an engineering Argentine officer who would have been part of the team that would have involved in this purchase, he previously had been involved in the Dagger acquisition from Israel (and a very interesting story that is too - for example they had asked all the aircraft to be stripped and repainted - they did the first and the rest were just overpainted). I will see if I can find out more.

[TEEEJ]

AndySmith wrote

...they did the first and the rest were just overpainted

IAI Dagger wreckage in the Falklands showing the remains of the Israeli IAI Nesher markings.

http://modelingmadness.com/review/mod/fr/calmp3e.jpg

Air Pictorial, I think it was, had some images of the following Dagger cockpit section? The Israeli "kill" markings were visible on the side where the paint had flaked off.

September 1, 1998
BUENOS AIRES - A Falkland islander found the wreckage of an Argentine fighter jet shot down in the war with Britain in 1982 and police are trying to determine whether remains found inside are the pilot's, the British Embassy said Monday. A spokesman said a hotelier chanced across the wreckage and alerted the military, who handed the matter over to police. Argentine media said the plane was an Israeli-made Dagger fighter shot down in May 1982 by a British Harrier.

Falkland Islander Finds Wreckage Of A Fighter Jet - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1998-09-01/news/9809010065_1_falkland-islander-wreckage-buenos)

[Lonewolf_50]

Would I be correct in assuming that the deal to buy some Kfirs from Israel (http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9750:argentina-faa-poised-to-order-kfir-b60&catid=35:latin-america&Itemid=58)has gone bust?

[Lyneham Lad]

Would I be correct in assuming that the deal to buy some Kfirs from Israel (http://dmilt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9750:argentina-faa-poised-to-order-kfir-b60&catid=35:latin-america&Itemid=58)has gone bust?

It seems not...
Argentina in negotiations for Israeli Kfir fighters (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/argentina-in-negotiations-for-israeli-kfir-fighters-415038/?cmpid=NLC|FGFG|FGFDN-2015-0729-GLOBnews&sfid=70120000000taAm)

[Rhino power]

Some aircraft are being offered with General Electric J79 engines with zero hours following a complete overhaul

I would've thought the US would put the bung in on that one?

-RP

[Lonewolf_50]

Put Russian pilots in them and it may be a different story! This all stems from the US poking Putin in the eye with a big stick ie oil price! It's going to get much more difficult to see where the real threat is coming from!
It ain't the US poking him in the eye with oil prices, it's the Saudis. They ended up poking no few Americans in the eye with it, along the way, as the local shale exploration boom has closed up lately.

[Heathrow Harry]

the Saudis are intent on proving to the BANKERS who invest in Shale oil that they should read the small print - the oil buiness knows the price goes up and down like .. (fill in inapropriate pharse here)........

Next time round the cost of investment will be significantly higher, which the Saudis like - plus it stops/slows the spread of fraccing elsewhere

then it's one in the eye for the Iranians as well

the colateral damage to Mr Putin and people like Venezuala is pure icing

and of course it reminds the White House just who are the US's "oldest friends" in the region -especially as they'll follow through with some large orders for airliners, military hardware and infrastructure

[Lyneham Lad]

On Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/argentina-and-israel-resume-kfir-sale-talks-422992/):-
Argentina and Israel have resumed negotiations covering the potential sale of 14 Israel Aerospace Industries Kfir Block 60 fighter aircraft, after the parties broke off talks following elections in the South American country in October 2015.

Up until that point, all indicators pointed to a likely contract signature in November.

The Block 60 aircraft, previously operated by the Israeli air force, are the latest upgraded version of the indigenous fighter that has been flying for 40 years.

It is powered by GE Aviation J79 engines and will carry an Elta 2032 active electronically scanned array radar and will have an open architecture to allow the customer to install other systems.

Kfir jets are in service with the air forces of Sri Lanka, Ecuador and Colombia.

And the money will come from???

[Marcantilan]

And the money will come from???

This is the third time the conversations are resumed...

Apparently, they like to talk to each other.

[27mm]

With a single, very thirsty J79, it'll have short legs. No amount of Elta avionics is going to make up for that. Not sure if it's AAR capable.....

[cokecan]

it seems unlikely that, given the number of 'deals' that various countries (not least the Israelis..) have done with Argentina over the years that have subsequently foundered, the Israelis have not ensured that the money does infact exist..

the Kfir airframe certainly is AAR capable, whether these particular examples are is another question - interesting of course that in another current purchace, the Argentine AF is buying a pair of KC-130's. its possible its a coincidence of course, and it may well come to pass that these aircraft won't be delivered with AAR, but i'm not sure i'd put much cash on it.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd be interested to know if the new Govt have signed up for this -as they are desperately trying to get the books back in shape after the gross misspending of the Kirchner years.

The military may have said that they have to have SOMETHING and so the loose change in the bottom of the desk drawer has been scraped up and the only thing that is available at the price are some very old Kfirs - a 40 year old design based on a 65 year old design............

[cokecan]

the Kfir deal has been floating about for 3 or so years to my recollection, it may even pre-date the Spannish F1 deal that had actual Argenine pilots actually flying Spannish F1's in actual Spain - the suggested reason it fell through was that the French refused to grant the Spannish permission to sell them to Argentina.

the cynical might wonder if that was because the French had their own F1's they wanted to unload, or because the French did us a favour. the very cynical might wonder if it was both...

it seems, to me, very unlikely that the Israelis would continue with this merrygoround without being very sure that both the money, and the intent, was available - and i rather doubt this latest press release would have occured if the new government wasn't on board.

[A_Van]

I think it was not serious back in 2014 about acquiring old Russian Su-24. A year later there were similar rumors about a similar deal with the Chinese that did not materialise either :
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/558226/China-Argentina-falkland-islands-fighter-jets (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/558226/China-Argentina-falkland-islands-fighter-jets)


It looks like Argentina first has to define the goals. Why do they need tactical bombers or, more general, attack aircraft? To attack Falklands? Sounds not serious because a single Patriot battery will keep them pretty far away. Attack the ships as they did (with a certain success) back in 1982? In this case they first have to find (where to buy) modern anti-ship missiles since "good old" Exocets are now really outdated. Aircraft (if any) would then be considered only in the context of (capability of) carrying those missiles. And Kfirs do not carry anti-ship or cruise stuff, do they?

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Peter we the Russians have much much more hardware and manpower that the UK so they can and will show their strengths. A big difference is that the UK is a member of NATO and does not just rely on its own military for defense. The UK can rely on the entire NATO defense structure. Russia on the other hand has few friends and essentially has to go it alone. We would never start a war with Russia as we simply do not have the facilities to house all of the prisoners.


..

[A_Van]

NutLoose, is Argentina part of Russia? I did not know .... Keep joking, the guy you are quoting is perfectly right ;)


As for the topic, if Argentina manages to buy Russian anti-ship missiles (even with scaled down range to meet the international treaty) it would be a head-ache for UK, indeed.

[cokecan]

from recall the Argentines have mooted, signed, or back away from, deals over US F-16's, French Mirage 2000's, Kfirs, Spannish F1's, Brazilian Gripen, Russian SU-24, something Chinese, and now we're back to Kfir.

its certainly easy to say that if they've not bought anything yet then they aren't going to, but we know that the Spannish deal went a long way down the track, and we know that this is the second bite of the Kfir cherry - i fail to see why, given that track record, the Isrealis would even bother replying to emails if they weren't sure the money existed.

[sitigeltfel]

I see the Argies have sunk a Chinese fishing boat they allege was illegally fishing in their waters.

Argentina sinks Chinese fishing boat Lu Yan Yuan Yu 010 - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35815444)

Could get interesting!

[Martin the Martian]

So did they sink them with the warning shots? Need to work on the targeting I think, or look up the definition of 'warning'.

And I guess that will be Argentina off Beijing Christmas card-yes of course we'll sell you cut price armaments list.

In the meantime, updated Kfirs versus Typhoons. Ooh, that's a tough one...

[cokecan]

In the meantime, updated Kfirs versus Typhoons. Ooh, that's a tough one...

it is - right up to the point where its 16 Kfirs vs 4 Typhoons, the Typhoons don't have a divert, and the Typhoons have to protect incoming cargo and passenger aircraft and ships that don't have SAM's.

how do four Typhoons cope with a co-ordinated action where SIGINT catches a deliberate sniff of a pair of Kfir and a tanker hanging around the approach route from ASI 500 miles north of MPA, another pair with a tanker are hanging around 100 miles SW of W Falkland, and then we see another pair, or even two pairs, bore in at 500kts on a direct heading from the NW?

how do four Typhoons cope with that our friends do it 4 days running?

[melmothtw]

how do four Typhoons cope with a co-ordinated action where SIGINT catches a deliberate sniff of a pair of Kfir and a tanker hanging around the approach route from ASI 500 miles north of MPA, another pair with a tanker are hanging around 100 miles SW of W Falkland, and then we see another pair, or even two pairs, bore in at 500kts on a direct heading from the NW?

how do four Typhoons cope with that our friends do it 4 days running?

Meteor.....?

[Tourist]

That's easy.

Don't try to do it with Typhoon.

There is often an SSN in that part of the world...

[Stanwell]

... coming soon to an air base near you. :cool:

(My point there is that an SSN, appropriately equipped, can caushttp://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/edit.gife interruptions to your planned sorties)
.

[Tourist]

Why would you defend merchant shipping with an aircraft?

Far better to make the point that Argentinian shipping is far more vulnerable.....

This is a silly discussion. One of the things the Falkland war proved is that the Argentinians are one of the sadly limited number of countries who play rigidly to the rules and fight wars honourably. You think they are going to go off shooting down civvy airliners and shipping?

[A_Van]

Sorry for a stupid question, but is it really just a group of 4 Eurofighter aircraft there (I do not count Hercules and VC10)? Patriots seems to be an obvious complementary stuff that would fix potential holes in the defence perimeter.

[Heathrow Harry]

Van - I've always thought the same -

but the UK doesn't have a medium/long range ground based anti aircraft missile system................

[cokecan]

Tourist,

i was actually thinking of HMS Clyde, or the point class ships, or indeed the RFA's...

while 16 Kfir and two tankers will not, rather obviously, provide Argentina with the capability to take the FI, they could make holding the FI in the face of continued 'hassle' much more expensive, and much more resource intensive.

[Lyneham Lad]

One of the things the Falkland war proved is that the Argentinians are one of the sadly limited number of countries who play rigidly to the rules and fight wars honourably. You think they are going to go off shooting down civvy airliners and shipping?

Tourist - refer post #112!

[Bigbux]

......and ignoring the use of hospital ships to illuminate enemy targets.

Oh, and imprisoning women and children in sheds, devoid of proper sanitation, for extended periods of time, in close proximity to military installations.

Did I mention booby-trapping ordnance and housing?

Threatening civilians with their lives to work for free?

Poisoning a water source.

Failing to mark mine fields.

.....and conducting illegal military invasions in general....;)

[Bigbux]

oh,..almost forgot. Shooting and killing a Royal Marines officer under a flag of truce.

[Courtney Mil]

Fortunately, the Junta left power some years ago and attitudes have changed. Argentina stopped conscription some 20 years ago and now have a purely professional, volunteer military.

At the appropriate threat level, MPA doesn't just have 4 Typhoons, but regardless of that, the scenarios some are suggesting here are politically, economically and militarily rather fantastic.

Argentina's politicians will keep raising the Falklands issue, which is hardly surprising, but trying for a rematch of 1982 would never be supported. Even with all that lovely oil there, which at $30 a barrel may not even be worth extracting for the time being.

[Tourist]

Bigbux
You do talk some rubbish.

You could find worse done by British troops in 5 mins googling

[Heathrow Harry]

Welllll.... I did know a lady who'd spent time in the aforementioned Shed and she was no fan of Argentina - tho' TBH she reckoned they were just really badly organised rather than deliberatly malevolent............

[westernhero]

In the interests of historical accuracy I think the unfortunate officer killed was Lt James Barry of the 2nd Btn The Parachute Regiment. Rather than deliberate murder I believe it was his attempt to take a surrender from one trench whilst coming under fire from another which was the cause of death.

[Heathrow Harry]

and lets not forget Navy Petty Officer Felix Artuso, a crewman of the Santa Fe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Santa_Fe_%28S-21%29), was mistakenly shot dead on 26 April after a British marine thought he was sabotaging the submarine. He is buried at Grytviken Cemetery.[/URL][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#cite_note-6"] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paraquet#cite_note-5)

[ORAC]

Britain beefs up defenses in the Falkland Islands (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/britain-beefs-up-defenses-in-the-falkland-islands)

LONDON - Britain has awarded £153 million (US $187 million) worth of contracts to equip the Falkland Islands with a new ground-based air-defense system known as Sky Sabre, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed.

A clutch of deals agreed around the turn of the year but only now becoming public includes award of a contract by the British to an Israeli company to supply a key battlefield command-and-control network to defend the South Atlantic island from potential Argentinian aggression. The main contract award, which the MoD valued at £78 million (US $95 million), was signed Jan. 9 with Israel’s Rafael Advanced Defence Systems, to develop a battle management, command, control, communications, computers and intelligence (BMC4I) network. Missile builder MBDA and surveillance radar supplier Saab have also been awarded contracts to integrate other, already ordered, ground-based air-defense system elements into the BMC4I.

Rafael, with help from UK partners Babcock, will supply its Modular, Integrated C4I Air & Missile Defense System and associated equipment in a development and manufacture phase likely to be completed around 2020. Babcock will provide a proportion of UK based activity including: synthetic based test and integration facilities, project management and hardware procurement. The percentage of UK work content on BMC4I is put at 40percent with the remainder coming from Israel.

The requirement is to deliver a ground-based air defence (GBAD) capability along with an initial support solution for up to 5 years. As part of the agreement, Rafael will serve as key systems integrator, including provision of communications links and integration with existing in-service communications infrastructure.

Nevertheless, industry executives in Europe reacted angrily to the award of the BMC4I system to the Israeli contractor. “Everybody was extremely surprised the MoD opted for Rafael. Politically, industry thought that was a route the UK government wouldn’t go down. It’s something other MoD’s, like the Israeli or French, would never have done. It makes you wonder just what parts of the local defense industry the government is willing to defend,” said the executive, who asked not to be named.

Doug Barrie, the senior air analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies think tank in London said he was puzzled by the decision. “At least on paper this looks like a sensitive area to award to a non-NATO or non-European partner. I’d have thought the government might have wanted to stay closer to home with this technology, as it arguably comes into the territory of sovereign operational capability,” said Barrie.

Concerns have also been raised by executives here about sharing sensitive Land Ceptor missile data with the Israeli company, which is itself a significant missile developer. An MoD spokeswoman said the department had addressed the issue in the contract. “Appropriate non-disclosure agreements are in place between the participating companies, along with safeguards around sensitive information and what needs to be shared,” said the spokeswoman.

Land Ceptor is currently in development led by the British arm of MBDA. The weapon is part of the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile family, the naval version of which has also been ordered by the Royal Navy.

MBDA was one of the bidders for the BMC4I requirement. Lockheed Martin , Northrop Grumman, Thales and Saab were also thought to have lodged bids......

The BMC4I order is the final major element of a more than two-year program aimed at beefing up the Falkland ground-based air defenses currently reliant on the aging Rapier ground-to-air missile. MBDA secured a deal to supply the British Army with a new ground-to-air weapon, known as the Land Ceptor, at the end of 2014, and that was followed several months later by the MoD acquiring additional Giraffe surveillance radars and updating existing sensors in a deal with Saab.

[ImageGear]

From a Brexit standpoint it should only be expected - if the EU wants to bite the hand that feeds it - it can expect to be sidelined when opportunities arise.

First element of the negotiation process I believe.

Imagegear

[Wyler]

Gutter politics of the worst kind.
Would not have happened if Mrs Clinton had won.
Just another indicator of how desperate and out of depth the Government is regarding Brexit and Trump. Trump loves Tel Aviv so now we do. Kiss Israel's a*rse but make sure it's thousands of miles away. Get deals at ANY cost to prop up the already trashed British economy and create the illusion that we are still a main player in the world.

Time for coffee and a nap...

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh I do love a non sequitur

[Martin the Martian]

Maybe, just maybe, the Israeli system was the best one available...

In any case, I really cannot see the UK government 'sucking up' to Israel. Not with all those contracts with other Middle Eastern countries we want to win.

[AR1]

Thats got an announcment that we dont need Aircraft down there written all over it...

[A_Van]

An interesting article that ORAC copied here (#131).

Strange to read that instead of feeding its own industry, the money mostly goes to Israel, Sweden, etc., and only a part of it (UK part of MBDA) remains in the country.

Building a BMC4I and radar network for this particular "use case", which implies a quite limited scenario as compared with e.g. a theatre-level one, appears to be not a cutting-edge task. And especially against an adversary obviously not from the "premier league" (in contrast to football). Even if the situation in the industry is that bad, it could be a chance to improve it a little bit.

Perhaps there is too much politics under the carpet....

[ORAC]

Used in the Iron Dome system the Israeli's use for picking off Hamas rockets, so a highly effective proven system. Looks like a good risk free choice.

http://www.rafael.co.il/5620-691-en/Marketing.aspx

[A_Van]

ORAC,

Well, they indeed can hit most of the flying pieces of metal tubes (that Hamas rockets are made from), but not all, BTW. During one of my visits to Israel I even watched a couple of successful interceptions (explosions in the air) with a local friend of mine (wives preferred to stay deep inside the house). But is it a scenario envisioned for that remote archipelago?

IMHO, a good alternative (from the battle management stand-point) would be a kind of SSDS (ship self-defense system) installed on (US) air carriers, but a bit more distributed across the shoreline.

[Tinman74]

ORAC,

Well, they indeed can hit most of the flying pieces of metal tubes (that Hamas rockets are made from), but not all, BTW. During one of my visits to Israel I even watched a couple of successful interceptions (explosions in the air) with a local friend of mine (wives preferred to stay deep inside the house). But is it a scenario envisioned for that remote archipelago?

IMHO, a good alternative (from the battle management stand-point) would be a kind of SSDS (ship self-defense system) installed on (US) air carriers, but a bit more distributed across the shoreline.
Is it combat proven? Is it readily adaptable to land? Is it able to be mission packed and moved?

[Heathrow Harry]

Ground Based Air Defence - Think Defence (http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/02/ground-based-air-defence/)

CAMM (LAND APPLICATION) - MBDA (http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm/)

has some pictures

IMHO its a good move - Rapier is on its way out

[ORAC]

MoD buys £78m Falklands defence shield from Israel (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mod-buys-78m-falklands-defence-shield-from-israel-cp0lxj2gn)

Britain has spent £78 million protecting the Falkland Islands with a missile defence shield used by Israel.

The Sky Sabre system, which uses the technology behind Israel’s Iron Dome mobile air defence system, can intercept short-range rockets and artillery shells. It was part of a £280 million renewal package for the islands announced by Michael Fallon as defence secretary in 2015.

The shield, which will come into service by 2020, connects radar stations, missile launchers and aircraft. It can be used to manage defences and launch attacks on an enemy. It was used in the Iron Dome, which shot down hundreds of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip in 2012.

Details of the deal came after Argentina signed a contract to buy five Super Étendard warplanes from France.

[Heathrow Harry]

About time TBH

[chopper2004]

Apparently we are purchasing the Israeli Air Defence system to defend the south Atlantic

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/238445

Cheers

[Rhino power]

Already posted here- http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/553644-falklands-defence-review-after-military-deal-between-russia-argentina-8.html

-RP

[Just This Once...]

Announced a couple of years back and we only purchased part of the Israeli C2 system that is also used as part of Iron Dome. Everything else that integrates with it will be from our own menu (i.e. Typhoon, AAR, GBAD, Maritime, Air Surveillance, Jt Fires et al).