The Queens Speech. The Monarchy at Christmas.

[Hangarshuffle]

The Speech.Was okay in parts, but to me it struck the wrong chord towards the end, and most especially the footage of her on a walkabout with the senior member of the Provisional IRA. This footage was specially selected as part of the message presumably.
I don't feel any particular reconciliation towards him or his colleagues, regardless of the season, and I never will.
So, sat there, be-fuddled and bloated with food and drink, I made an instant decision to reject it.
Wonder if she was made to put that in?
Can you have poppies galore one month (see November), then be asked to compromise massively with your fixed opinion the next?
But the Queens also an old lady, a WW2 veteran and much more, so I make an allowance.


Watching the rest of them on the news at the Xmas day morning service, I was struck by what a massive gang of them there now is. I lost count. When the Queen goes, there's gonna have to be a re-adjustment.I look forward to seeing Andrews pair on the tills in the sales at Poundland, to be honest.
Anyway, I'm off to the traditional northern boxing day afternoons bloodsport-Merry Xmas!!

[charliegolf]

Her Maj will be so relieved you're prepared to make allowances for her!

CG

[Vendee]

Hangarshuffle, re: your views on reconciliation... would you really prefer the catholic and protestant communities bombing the crap out of each other and shooting up our servicemen?

Regardless of who's side you are on, that "conflict" was never going to be resolved by force by any side. Reconciliation really was the only way. I for one never thought it would ever happen and I have a great respect for those on all sides who made it happen. Ireland, both north and south is a safer, better place for it and so is mainland UK for that matter.

Its easy to condemn McGuinness and Adams for being terrorists (so was Mandela). Its also easy to forget the atrocious discrimination perpetrated against the catholic community in the 1960's which facilitated the IRA's re-emergence.

Time to move on and enjoy the peace.

[ShotOne]

Hangarshuff, I don't LIKE McGuinness or his former colleagues. But I DO want to be reconciled with them. Indeed I don't particularly like hearing him being interviewed...but would you rather they were still skulking in the shadows plotting atrocities?

HM's words were carefully chosen. Do you have an alternative to reconciliation other than unending warfare?

[NutLoose]

She writes her speech herself apparently

[Clockwork Mouse]

Hangarshuffle

"I was struck by what a massive gang of them there now is".
They're a family for heaven's sake. She's a great grandmother so of course there are a lot of them. But very few are on the public payroll, so what readjustment do you propose?

[Sand4Gold]

Time to move on and enjoy the peace.

And yet here we are, fifteen years later, that we find only 6.97% of children in NI attending nonsectarian schools?

[Hangarshuffle]

Yea, just drifted back from in from the sport, had a few sherberries. I cant feel reconciled with them, I think they would kill us, bomb us again at a moments convenience. Think it was a mistake under political pressure (the speech).
But yes better that than a continuous terror campaign, if you are pragmatic and prepared to swallow it.
Funny how we can be fed whose an enemy on minute, friend next>? we will building statues to them one day.
The sovereign fund as its now called or something gets I think 10% profit on the money generated by the crown estate I think, so HM Queen and Co get about £37 million PA as pay, in effect.
Hence the massive gathering, nothing less-money and photo opportunity.


The Queens a fantastic person. Seen and heard her close up whilst I was FAA, got her vibe straight away.


A rambling not really even relevant sttory. A mate of mine volunteered whilst the CVS ship was alongside in Hamburg to be a barman at a function-think they went ashore for thjis,it was not a wardroom/hangar pink gin debacle.
So he is behind the bar serving our lads (a mix up of all ranks). He was alongside one of the top German aces of WW2. Only me mate knew who he was, because he knows his stuff.. Everyone else was just pissed, and wouldn't have recognised him. An old man, by now anyway. So what I'm saying is the German ace was serving up, at the bar, for the lads.
My mate clocked him and knew who he was. And asked him about his role, and events he took place in. The shooting downs, the chalk ups (and this man shot down bloody dozens if not hundreds of allied planes, Ive googled him since this). And I can even remember his answer, as told by my friend. He said he was terrified in the air and was never happier than when he had survived a combat and was on his way home alive. Felt no pleasure in the killing, he just wanted to get back alive. The war was over, he had moved on. He liked us.


So perhaps that's reconciliation, in a way. Old generation with our new younger generation had become reconciled. Gradually I like to think we as Britons become reconciled with our former enemies (and we have so many...).
But we are a long, long way away from this at the moment with the IRA and Irish republicans in general..

[Vendee]

And yet here we are, fifteen years later, that we find only 6.97% of children in NI attending nonsectarian schools?That's better than it was when I first went to school in Glasgow 50 years ago. Your school/religion/football team defined you. Horrible state of affairs.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Queen is given 15% of the net annual profit from the estate or £37.9m.

Given her responsibilities in relation to some bankers with 7 figure incomes that is not a lot.

[Lima Juliet]

Regardless of who's side you are on, that "conflict" was never going to be resolved by force by any side.

I've always had a problem with the definition of "winning" or "losing" or even "drawing" in any conflict. You could say that the Allies "won" WW2, but 70 years later we are starting to doubt it - the Axis powers were not eradicated, they still exist, they could strike again (unlikely at this present time), both sides suffered huge losses and the 'losing' nations have had very strong economies in post-war. Yes, we forced their surrender but they cannot be held down by the conquering powers forever - we learnt that from oir own Empire. So what is the alternative to force a true "win"? Well the only way to force a true win that will last is to eradicate your foe - completely and utterly (men, women and children). However, that would never be acceptable today and unlikely in the near future.

If you look at 'peace', 'war' and 'victory/loss' as a loop that is ever changing for each conflict then you won't be far off. This loop is revolving quickly in the Middle East at present and more slowly in Europe, but how will we feel in 100-200 years time? Divisions in Europe are already opening and what is to stop a Ukraine-type scenario flaring elsehwere where there are historic divisions?

So, to say 'Regardless of who's side you are on, that "conflict" was never going to be resolved by force by any side' is quite naive in my opinion - I would rephrase it to say "conflict will only be resolved militarily with the total eradication of the other side, everything else is just a reconciliatory 'pause' (some long, some short)".

Looking at my loop model of 'peace', 'war' and 'victory/loss', then I would suggest that 'reconciliation' is the shortcut to 'peace' before the loop starts again.

And on that depressing thought, I'm off for a beer...

LJ

[Hangarshuffle]

HM Queen is outstanding value. Its the clan behind her I don't like, and wish they would get real jobs, if only for 1 full year.

[Albert Driver]

Nobody knew she would be "outstanding value" when she was part of "the clan behind", did they?

We all had to learn our skills.

[air pig]

HS, two have flown helicopters for the armed forces one is still there and wants to go back flying the other is about hopefully to start with an AA team.

[Herod]

wish they would get real jobs, if only for 1 full year.

Like flying an SAR helicopter perhaps? Or flying an Apache on operations? Or organising the Invictus Games? That generation's doing a lot of real jobs.

[Pontius Navigator]

AP, 3 actually and 2 others as boat handlers.

[rh200]

And yet here we are, fifteen years later, that we find only 6.97% of children in NI attending nonsectarian schools?

Thats not a bad thing, cultural issues take decades to breed out. The quicker you force the issue the greater the risk of destabilization. The assimilation with each other has to happen from within, with sometimes a helping nudge.

[Vendee]

So, to say 'Regardless of who's side you are on, that "conflict" was never going to be resolved by force by any side' is quite naive in my opinion - I would rephrase it to say "conflict will only be resolved militarily with the total eradication of the other side, everything else is just a reconciliatory 'pause' (some long, some short)".I certainly don't think that view is naive. I think you stand a far better chance of a long term peace with an enemy if you can reconcile your differences than if you defeat him. As we saw with Germany post WW1, defeat harbored resentment and we soon found ourselves at war again.

[NWSRG]

And yet here we are, fifteen years later, that we find only 6.97% of children in NI attending nonsectarian schools?

Be careful with that one...by nonsectarian, I assume you mean integrated? The integrated sector is still small (though growing), but the traditional split was the State Schools (seen as Protestant) and the Catholic sector. However, the State sector was never intended to be for one side of the community only. In fact. most State schools had a reasonable number of Catholic pupils. The integrated schools are proactive in drawing from both communities, but the State sector was always designed to be mixed.

In terms of McGuiness and the Queen...as someone who seen family and friends injured while serving in the RUC, any involvement of Sinn Fein in government is hard to take. But I also look at the future in NI for my little daughter...and it's much brighter than the outlook I grew up in. Also, I think personalities come into it. McGuiness seems to make a genuine effort in terms of reconciliation...while I detest where he came from, there is a grudging respect that (a) he admits what he was, and (b) he does seem to want to leave something better in place. Adams is a different matter!

On the question of whether the war was won...I think the combined efforts of the RUC, British Army and the Intelligence Services eventually wore the Provos down. I think those on both sides had become war weary; we got to a stage where everyone realised there had to be some concensus. Once the ceasefires happened, 9/11 sealed it. From then on, no American administration could allow the terror to reignite, so the Provos support in the USA dried up.

The sad thing is that it took 3,000 lives to get there, not to mention the many more injured or maimed. But any form of reconciliation now makes the process easier for the next generation.

PS. I should also say, NI was never as divided as the press would have suggested. The vast majority of us shared employment, socialising, and even family across 'the divide'. Sadly the few on both sides did the damage.

[Tankertrashnav]

That's better than it was when I first went to school in Glasgow 50 years ago. Your school/religion/football team defined you. Horrible state of affairs.

Absolutely! I grew up in Glasgow in the 1950s and went to Catholic schools, which were brilliant from an academic point of view, but I was thoroughly indoctrinated with religion. Moving to England at age twelve and going to a non-sectarian school was a revelation!

[dervish]

Very true tanker. When I went to secondary school it was the first time Catholics had been allowed entry and only one enrolled. He was greeted with "******* Pape", although some of the other teachers were more tolerant.

[Vendee]

Absolutely! I grew up in Glasgow in the 1950s and went to Catholic schools, which were brilliant from an academic point of view, but I was thoroughly indoctrinated with religion. Moving to England at age twelve and going to a non-sectarian school was a revelation!For me it was when I joined the RAF at 17 and moved south to Swinderby/Halton. The thing is, when you are caught up in that sectarian bubble, you don't notice anything until you manage to break out. After a few months at Halton. I realised than no one had asked me my religion or what school I went to. As you said, its a revelation and I never went back.

[BEagle]

At the Towers in the late 1960s, we had a number of ex-Super Tech apprentoids on our entry.

Having had the benefit of being in the mob for a while, they did some thinking, then announced that would all like to become Catholics. The RC padre was amazed and was just about to ring the Vatican with his news when his colleagues had a word with him.

The reason was the timing of mandatory church on Sundays. CofE fell in at about 10:30, had a parade and an inspection, then marched off to the god shop and back again afterwards, not escaping until about 12:30.

Church of jocks and odds met at 10:00 at the JMPG and marched off to their place, but were free by 11:00-ish.

Whereas the RC cadets merely turned up at their church at 09:30, mumbled some Latin and escaped PDQ. This wasn't lost on the apprentoids!

So the RC padre, having been tipped off about these cunning beggars, told them that there would be no problem, but that they'd need to attend religious instruction sessions first. On Saturday afternoons. Perhaps unsurprisingly, their enthusiasm for Catholicism soon vanished!

[Haraka]

Church of jocks and odds met at 10:00 at the JMPG and marched off to their place, but were free by 11:00-ish

Beags . My hut included two Jockistanis and so we got briefed that the chats were very informal and included TEA and BISCUITS.
I suddenly remembered that I was a Baptist, our tame Welsh item a congregationalist and the only other Englishmen Plymouth brethren or some such. So off we all marched on Sunday mornings down the road to salvation.

[Basil]

Absolutely! I grew up in Glasgow in the 1950s and went to Catholic schools, which were brilliant from an academic point of view, but I was thoroughly indoctrinated with religion. Moving to England at age twelve and going to a non-sectarian school was a revelation!
My wife, a Glasgow Jordanhill graduate, taught for many years on Clydeside and was teaching in her first English shool. One day the RC Priest walked in for 'Fall out thr Catholics!' and, when she looked a bit surprised, asked if she had an objection. "No." she replied, "It's just that I didn't know I had Catholics in my class."
It was her first introduction to the English non-sectarian education system.
I think our divisive Scottish system is stark raving bonkers.

[Basil]

At South Cerney the non C of E types had an honour system that required us to locate and attend our God House of choice.
Mine was my room in the Cadet Mess Seco Hut :E

[Willard Whyte]

Tut, all this talk of religion at Christmas. It'll never do.

[Martin the Martian]

A friend of mine is a former Nimrod tac nav, and tells me the story of his intake in which one recruit got out of going to church on Sunday by announcing he was Jewish and therefore unable to worship in a Christian manner etc. All very well, except of course he wasn't Jewish at all. By all accounts his face was a picture when a car turned up with a couple of very pleasant gents to take him to the local synagogue to join them for their service...

[BEagle]

By all accounts his face was a picture when a car turned up with a couple of very pleasant gents to take him to the local synagogue to join them for their service...

Presumably after checking whether he'd had the relevant surgical procedure?

[Martin the Martian]

I get the impression that the instructing staff had heard it so often that they had a regular arrangement with the synagogue, who were more than happy to play ball.

[NutLoose]

At least all the rumours of her abdicating were wrong, As much as I think she should scale back on her duties a bit at her age, the thought of the future King and his other half bring shivers down my spine.

[Heathrow Harry]

Maybe we could all have a vote on it?

Monarchy YES/NO

Charles YES/NO

[Basil]

Maybe we could all have a vote on it?
We have a vote (such as it is) for the Commons.
I'd be dismayed to have a public vote decide who should succeed HMTQ.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Wasn't that the "elected monarchy" system that certain foreign Johnnies had and gave us an advantage over for so many years?

[Exascot]

I see that all the palace guardsmen have now had their sentry boxes moved back behind the railings and are protected by armed police. I am in two minds about this. Whilst not wishing our chaps to be put in any unnecessary danger surely in a way the Islamic Extremists have a moral victory. Any ideas for a better solution? I can think of one but the mods would delete my post :E

[pulse1]

It might be worth starting a petition on Change.org when the time is right. I suspect that, if the crown passes down through the existing succession, the monarchy will be unrecoverable by the time William gets his chance. That would be a pity because, from what I have seen so far, William and Kate would help to establish a modern and popular monarchy.

[melmothtw]

from what I have seen so far, William and Kate would help to establish a modern and popular monarchy.

I'm sure folks were saying the same about Charles and Diana when they were first married. I wonder if you'll be thinking the same about William and Kate when they're touching 70 and still waiting for the position to open up.

That's the 'beauty' of monarchy - you get what you're given, when you're given it. No ifs, no buts, no say....

[Exascot]

That's the 'beauty' of monarchy - you get what you're given, when you're given it. No ifs, no buts, no say...

And, we are very, very lucky to have such a hard working and dedicated 'firm'. Not too late for the New Year's honours list Your Majesty :ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

"Wasn't that the "elected monarchy" system that certain foreign Johnnies had and gave us an advantage over for so many years?"

welll--- talking of advantages the USA & Germany have Presidents......... as do China & Russia

Japan does have a monarchy of course but otherwise....................

[NutLoose]

I remember Brize late 80's wanting to do a VC10 run during the God-slot when it was verboten by the Staish, our Sootie desk boss said if we can't beat them, then let's join them, so off we all traipsed In our oily dirty working kit.. He was not amused.

[Thelma Viaduct]

The UK has raped and pillaged more than its fair share and continues to do so, I'm no fan of the Irish and their smooth bullsh1t conversation, but pot kettle and black spring to mind when talking about 'terrorists'. The UK has been terrorising foreign nations for longer than Ireland has been in existence.

[melmothtw]

Well, technically speaking Ireland has been in existence longer than the UK has, but 'interesting' rant nonetheless.

[thing]

I seem to remember my dad telling me about the religious issue when he was in the mob. He decided he was a sun worshipper. This did not go down well apparently but his OC gave him full marks for initiative.

However he did join the station boxing team when he found out they had steak every day for dinner.

[Basil]

OP, I don't feel any particular reconciliation towards him or his colleagues, regardless of the season, and I never will.
YOU don't like them?? I had to shake their fwaking hands! If I can suck it up the qunts so can my subjects!
Signed HMTQ

[Tankertrashnav]

Reference withdrawing the ceremonial guards. I read that the mounted guards at Horse Guards are now accompanied by armed police. Finally the question quis custodiet ipsos custodies? gets an answer - in this case the Met!

[Hangarshuffle]

Not the nicest story to have hanging over your headI suppose. There's something about Prince Andrew that the British public seem to find unpleasant (I think its his mean nasty face),and so to sell papers the media had really latched onto this one.


Prince Andrew 'categorically denies' claims he sexually abused teenager - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/11321947/Prince-Andrew-categorically-denies-claims-he-sexually-abused-teenager.html)


Out of interest to this pleb and not at all related to this story, actually how much does the Royal Protection Squad cost the taxpayer to run?

[The Old Fat One]

and so to sell papers the media had really latched onto this one.

bullcr@p

No fan of the media, but in this case their hands are tied...this is being reported across the States and it is in open court. If it was not being reported in the UK, the public would be crying foul about the cover up.

Watch this one go ballistic if the women wins.

[Tankertrashnav]

No fan of the media, but in this case their hands are tied...this is being reported across the States and it is in open court. If it was not being reported in the UK, the public would be crying foul about the cover up.

No fan of HRH, but I am even less of a fan of the situation where a woman can make an accusation like this which is bound to make the world's headlines, and yet retain total anonymity (at least as far as the UK goes, not sure how it works over there). At least one source has said she has a history of making false accusations, but of course as we aren't allowed to know who she is, this can neither be proved or disproved.

One things for sure, even if Andy emarges from this with his reputation 100% intact, there will still be malicious people hinting that there's no smoke without fire, etc. Just look at all the morons (including plenty on here) who do silly nudge nuge wink wink posts about Prince Harry's paternity, in spite of that particular rumour being well and truly scotched years ago
'
Never thought I'd feel sorry for "air miles Andy", but in this occasion I do!

[melmothtw]

How exactly was that particular rumour 'well and truly scotched'?

[Tankertrashnav]

Basically I cant be arsed to go back and explain all the dates, I'm quite happy it was all a load of horscrap. All those silly posts with their silly :E emotiocons seem to be based on a vague facial likeness to James Hewitt, ignoring the fact that he has an much stronger facial likeness to his uncle, Earl Spencer.

But then, I realise I'm wasting my time, if you want to go on believing that he's James Hewitt's love child, carry on, safe in the knowledge that the Royals never bring civil actions.

[melmothtw]

I couldn't care either way to be honest, the whole concept of hereditary monarchy is ridiculous to me. Just didn't recollect how those particular rumours had been well and truly scotched as you said is all. Thanks for clarifying they haven't.

[jonw66]

I believe that the News of the World got hold of some of Harry's hair and tested it against Hewitt and it was a negative.

[melmothtw]

No, pretty sure that never happened.

[jonw66]

Just realised I read it on the jetblast thread so you are probably correct.

[glad rag]

Why don't you just rock up and ask him then?

No? thought so.

[melmothtw]

Why would I? It's not something I ever think about, and am only talking about it now because someone else brought it up.

[Biggus]

How about the fact that Princess Diana didn't meet James Hewitt until 1986 - whereas Prince Harry was born in 1984?

Still - don't let the truth get in the way of a good story...

[melmothtw]

A very cursory Google search tells me that Diana's former bodyguard says they didn't meet until 1986, but that others who were equally 'knowledgeable' say they met before 1984.

Believe what you will I guess.

[thing]

Doesn't matter who his dad is does it? Primogeniture aside the lad was brought up fairly OK as far as I can see and seems to have a pretty close relationship with his family. I'm sure whatever the case may be he regards the Windsors as his mob. I would say it's what he thinks that counts.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm with Melmoth on the monarchy however Andrew is damned until proven innocent in the current world - which is most unfair TBH

On the other hand too many of the minor royals mix with some pretty dubious people............................

[The Old Fat One]

Not really to do with guilt or innocence at this stage is it. More a case of an unwelcome spotlight being thrown into the face of the rich, powerful and privileged. And this spotlight is brighter than most as it originates in a courtroom, not in a tabloid.

Not at all sure a Florida court can subpoena a British Royal - guess you'd have a pretty specialist knowledge of the law to answer that. Can't see him fronting up and giving evidence voluntarily, so I guess they just have to tough it out. One thing's for sure - if there is any proven substance to this it will be the biggest sh1tstorm to hit them in my lifetime.