Czech Minister drags WW2 pilots into benefits debate

[ShotOne]

The Czech Europe Minister has tweeted a picture of WW2 Czech RAF Pilots with the caption " in UK for less than four years so no benefits for these Czechs.."

He has every right to be proud of his countrymen, as we have to be grateful to them. But should this affect the current debate? If any of us turn up in a Czech social-security office, how likely are we to receive a payment ...and am I alone in finding it distateful that this gentleman has chosen to build his argument on the backs of these brave pilots, who most definitely did not come to Britain to claim benefits?

[NutLoose]

You could say the same for an UK soldier, at Dunkirk, North Africa, DDay landings, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany...... And no service pension, just the standard state one..

It should be why are "we the Czechs" not giving them a better state pension for all their years of paying taxes in their own country. After all post WW2 in most eastern countries they were persecuted for having served in the RAF etc.

I could understand a war pension those for those injured in our service.

[t43562]

It does seem relevant because it sort of points out that no matter what someone has done for you, come to fight for you in your time of need and serve in your armed forces, it's perfectly ok to find some excuse for not repaying them as you would any of your own citizens.

[melmothtw]

Setting aside the rights and wrongs of using this particular example, I think the Czech minister was making the very valid point that measuring an immigrant's value to this country purely on the number of years they have been here is somewhat binary and pretty non-sensical.

[newt]

But how can you backdate the current benefits system to 1945? Where do you draw the line! It was a very different society back then! People did not get state handouts and we were not part of Europe! Just a part of sorting out Germany and others! Many came to fight so they could go home not stay and become British.:ugh:

[melmothtw]

Again, my interpretation, but the minister is not calling for Czech WW2 veterans to be given British benefits.

All he is saying is that you cannot judge a person's value to a country based on the number of years they have lived there. He is using the example of the Czech pilots who helped to defend Britain from the Nazis to make this point - no one calls into question their value to our society, yet they were here for less than 4 years (the proposed cut-off point for EU nationals to receive benefits in the UK).

[blimey]

I find it frustrating that nobody is critical of Germany, France, Italy, Denmark, Spain, Luxembourg, Portugal, The Netherlands etc..... over the refusal to allow the new EU members access to their labour markets in 2004. The hypocrisy of those now criticising the UK is staggering.

[Wander00]

France is still denying free access, ie prosecuting non French but fully qualified ski instructors, and currently a volunteer Ski Club of GB member for voluntarily leading a ski expedition

[ShotOne]

Let's be clear, the minister's point has nothing to do with veterans benefits. He is simply, and inexplicably, aggrieved that migrants will no longer be able to just step off a bus or train here and start picking-up cheques.

As blimey points out, why on earth should the UK be taking flak for this? Any UK citizen stepping off a bus in Prague or Bucharest and demanding financial support would be treated with incomprehension, astonishment and when they realised it wasn't a wind-up, guffaws of laughter.

[FlightDetent]

Link: https://twitter.com/CZSecStateEU/status/538289504785035264/photo/

a) he is not a minister, and nowhere close to that post; things got lost in translation
b) he is running his own / his party's agenda, as an EU bureocrat would do
c) he seeks no benefits for the BoB participants, only tries to make his political point.
d) = a + b + c : there is not even a slightest aviation conneciton.

Cheers,
FD.

PS: After 1 yr of contributions, the Irish would recognize me within their soc-sec system.

[OvertHawk]

They did not "come to fight for us". They, mostly, ended up here because their countries were overrun and we were the only place they could run to. We took them in.

They then fought alongside us to help liberate their own (and other) countries. Their help was invaluable, certainly, but they were fighting their own war as much as ours!

Many of them were permitted to remain in the UK after their own countries fell under the Soviets.

To cite these people in the current immigration discussion, is irrelevant, disingenuous, inaccurate and dishonourable (in short exactly what we have come to expect from a politician).

[melmothtw]

Politicians should be warned against invoking the Battle of Britain as it never turns out right for them. Anyone remember the BNP / Polish Spitfire omni-farce?

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/spitfire_zpsfcb71d01.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/spitfire_zpsfcb71d01.jpg.html)

[ian16th]

t43562 (http://www.pprune.org/members/314659-t43562)

There is a very strong case that the Czech's and Pole's et al, did not come to the UK to 'fight for us', as much as they came to the UK to 'fight the Germans' that they were unable to fight from their home countries.

[Wander00]

ian16th - having spoken with several over the years, I would agree with that view

[Shackman]

Unveiled this year:


https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7497/15474438203_a77b0a0c14_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pzqxmF)Prague Memorial (https://flic.kr/p/pzqxmF)

[t43562]

@OvertHawk ah, well then that's ok - no need to pay people if they really "want to work" then either - they'll just do it anyway. Neat. Something for us, nothing for them.

[ShotOne]

"Something for us, nothing for them.." , eh?? How on earth does a qualification period for unemployment benefits justify this bizarre statement?

[OvertHawk]

t43562. I'm not sure how my post led you to draw that conclusion.

I was trying to make 2 points:

Firstly, that the Czechs and others who fought alongside us during WWII were not slaves that we coerced for our own ends and;

Secondly, that it's irrelevant and disrespectful to cite them in this argument.

I made no reference at all to the current situation so quite how you manage to equate that to your "something for us - nothing for them" comment is beyond me. :ugh:

[t43562]

I'm an immigrant, from a former colony, so the issue is touchy for me. We also came to your aid, by the way, WW2 and WW1 but as our country descended into a hell-hole dictatorship with the help of the DPRK and Mr Putin's older pals nobody came to save us.

Having had to work very hard without relying on the benefits system at all, I nevertheless find the whole discussion exceedingly mean spirited and unfair because in my industry at least, it's the immigrants who work their arses off while the locals go home at 5pm sharp, make complaints about how this or that bit of work is "not their responsibility" and go complaining to the boss about how "quantity of effort is not as important as quality" whilst pointing in my direction It's all rather like the third world country I left.

I feel a sense of being out of control - nothing I could do would allow me to be treated fairly because it's just who I am that counts.

I did also get a chance to work in Germany and I'm so glad that, given I was paying insurance the whole time to one government or the other, I could still get healthcare on the one critical occasion that I needed it. I was made unemployed too and didn't look for handouts but I am so glad that I could have done from someone - given the years of contributions that I have already made to one government or the other.

So I hope this explains my sarcastic comments and I apologise if they were unkind. I hope you have a merry Christmas.

[NutLoose]

Not at all, It's not about people that have contributed taxes into the system, it's about new arrivals that haven't, but expect to be supported in my eyes.

Oddly enough there was a programme ages ago where they visited Boston, they interviewed some "slob" in his vest on the doorstep and he was bitching about jobs been taken by " foreigners" hence he was unemployed. Asked would he pick fruit as indeed the migrant workforce were doing, he replied "no, not for those wages, I am better off on the dole"

And that's the crux of the problem.

T43562 I wish you and your family a Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year in this Country you have made your home.

[bosnich71]

Nutloose,t43562...... and yet again a blog referring to immigrants/benefits etc. turns into a slanging match about the "Idle British".

[smujsmith]

Bosnich71,

What an apt point, but as Nutloose relates, indigenous British people seem to be the national target of choice for the three ruling parties from the past several decades. All have contrived to sign away our rights and conventions in their need to ingratiate themselves with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. However, this thread relates to how EU member states are now looking to Britain to supply welfare for their own citizens, when they are not prepared to do so themselves. Very recently, the Polish Economic Minister made statements to the fact that the Polish economy relied on welfare payments to Polish families, claimed by a parent in Britain. I wonder how many EU economies are mow being propped up by the British taxpayer ? And all done without ever allowing the British people a choice on staying in the EU. I'm a simple bloke I suppose, and wonder at the patience of the British people seeing their elderly or disabled relatives subject to austerity cuts as Overseas aid and EU subscription and "extra charges" are paid without question (although usually accompanied by some faux "hair shirt" defiance). I'm at a loss to see where it all ends, unless we leave the EU, and regain control of our own purse strings.

Smudge

[t43562]

@Bosnich well, it's one of those threads that's about "scrounging immigrants" so it starts off with an accusation anyhow. I think you might as well have a viewpoint from the other direction. My impression is that this happens everywhere when 2 or more tribes mix - each accuse the other of some unfair advantage and it's not always untrue.

We're not really arguing with facts such as what is the actual economic contribution etc etc but impressions because in a way impressions are what count to us personally. So that was my impression. It might not be representative - it's subjective - but at least it adds to the alternatives.

I don't really understand why there isn't a Europe-wide benefits system since there's a Europe-wide job market.If it was based on prior contributions for those who had done work and home-country contributions for those who hadn't then it would be fairish. Poland could pay Polish unemployment to poles in the UK at Polish rates until they "kickstarted" their UK contribution.

I think it's particularly awesome to be able to work abroad and I think people in the UK are looking at the issue in single direction which is a mistake - they should be taking advantage of the ability to work in Europe themselves and should work out a system of social welfare that protects them both ways. I had a small chance to do this and I loved it and learned things. I desperately want my daughter to have this opportunity open to her too.

[ShotOne]

On the contrary, t43 the thread was prompted by a D-list Czech politician trying to score points off the back of his courageous countrymen. Even if the proposals which so offend him are introduced, overseas benefits claimants will still receive far more generous treatment here than would a UK citizen in most of the countries now slinging brickbats.

I agree 100% with you on free movement of labour within EU... but what's that got to do with this debate when the point at issue is benefits eligibility?

[FlightDetent]

... the thread was prompted by a D-list Czech politician trying to score points off the back of his courageous countrymen. ... Exactly so. No military and/or aviation connection at all...

FD.