How I feel about all of it

[PrivatePilotDA40NG]

I don't feel really good about all of it. I think I'm going to leave this forum for a while. Honestly I've been thinking about letting it all go and set my dream on a hold.

During training I have always been told that I am good, I fly impressive.. That I'd get a job for sure. Now it has been a year since my graduation and I didn't have an airline interview for an FO position yet.

It is killing me, because it's still a crazy dream. I see friends who graduated later, scores lower and they are starting TR with a national carrier in a few months. Honestly I feel sick and I realize aviation is not fair in any way.

Aviation is not a love story anymore. The job market is being ruined by all kinds of scandalous programs. I hope that one day things will be different again, with opportunities for everyone, fair contracts and fair selection processes.


At least I got a flight instructor job and I will work hard, and do whatever it takes to get a fair F/O position. Because this is still my dream, even if I feel that the business ruined my dream and it feels more distant than ever.

Let me know your opinion.
What is your future plan, how do you feel about the current options for graduates?

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

It's your fault if you are focusing only on airlines... There's a lot more flying out there than just airlines.

What you could also do is knock at general aviation and executive ops' doors and see if you could do anything related to flying and show your value. Dispatching and general ground ops, not only piloting positions.

Another option is heading to Africa in the hiring season or slightly earlier and knock at doors.

Don't do the instructor if you really don't want to.

Don't limit yourself to the airline industry.

[captain.weird]

Hi mate

I don't know for how long you are graduated now, but your time will come. You're just 20 years old and it is a very young age.

Besides of that, you are even from Belgium. Jetairfly hires from time-to-time people who got their frozen ATPLs for office and operational jobs. Think about crew scheduling, OCC, customer service agent etc etc.

Also, a friend of mine visited a regional in Switzerland. Just visited. He went to the HQ and asked for the HR, got the flight deck recruiter. Left his CV and got the job the next month. Another one is know cabin crew with a regional airline in Germany, waiting for his turn in the cockpit.

Just don't give up. Also, try to earn some money as much as you can. Being a FI is a good thing, but don't hold it with that. There are a lot of unqualified job offers in Belgium. Try a regular nightshop, cassier at colruyt etc. Why? Because you will need that money ;) !

Btw, give your resume a real boost. Try to be expressive, not standard.

[v4city]

There are guys who have tried 3-4 years for their first job, so 1 year is nothing, just you have to keep yourself motivated.

[Veren]

Jetairfly isn't all that it is cracked up to be (anymore).

They also run a cadet scheme with the dodgiest of all ATO's; BAFA (story for another time, but seriously, stay away)

This is what I just copied from Jetairfly (TUI Airlines Belgium pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Jetairfly_(TUI_Airlines_Belgium))

"CAE students are in the selection process for summer contracts at the moment. Furthermore 60 KLM Flight Academy students will be hired in 2015 on summer contracts for either Belgium or Congo."

Good luck competing with 3 preferred suppliers :mad:

Also, they ran an ab initio recruitment process earlier this year to select young pilots for a holding pool / ground function, so I doubt they'll be looking for more anytime soon. I personally know a Belgian guy that tried and failed earlier this year; cracking pilot, amazing credentials, cum laude uni background, and he got rejected before even being invited for an interview based because he 'didn't fit the profile' .. I suppose he was overqualified?

My advise to you would be to perhaps put the dream on hold but don't leave the industry - Join a gliding club or something, meet people and start networking. Even if you cannot afford to fly, just go and hang out / be part of the atmosphere. It isn't about your skills in this industry; You got the license and so do others. You get jobs by persevering, having timing/luck, and most of all knowing people that can help you get a foot in the door.

Also, do the sensible thing and get an education. You're only 20 ... You will regret it later on and right now you've put all your eggs in the aviation basket, which as you rightly said is currently a mess for young starters. Diversify your skill-set and get a degree!

[MonarchOrBust]

It pains me to see yet more relatively immature and inexperienced (with life) young people enter this industry. Like the poster above says, 1 year is nothing, expect 3-4 minimum. If I could write a law that forces people to get a job elsewhere and in another industry before trying for a pilot's job, I would. Flying isn't everything and you will discover that pretty soon after getting that first job.

[254HEAVY]

So what do you consider your current job to be? Isn't that a stepping stone to "your dream job"? Be grateful for what you currently have. Others have waited 3-4 yrs to get a break and it it wasn’t an “airline” break!

[v4city]

May be you had your first job the next day after your school, in some part of the world that's not the case brother, need a lot of patience.

[SPANK-VT]

I can understand your status. I finished my training more than 1 year ago but no interviews and notting. The only thing I've been recruited as a cabin crew in a airline and I hope to get my opportunity from a future internal recruitment.
I'm 31 and it is quite depressing see that. at your age you have much more opportunity than me. Don't give up!!!

[Stanwell]

Yeah, settle down mate. It's a big wide world out there.
Keep your ears, eyes and options open.

Cheers.

[P40Warhawk]

I dont know if you talk about me captain weird ;) , but yes I work as Flight Attendant in a German Regional. I am very thankful that I got this opportunity. I learn a lot. While not active but proceeding I sit pretty often in cockpit during the flight. So I see already new things and learn from it.

Everything what you can do else then flying in the aviation world could help you later. And it might be your foot between the door to a pilot job.

For me, until then I work hard and do my job as FA as good as possible.
Even when I have to fly early, I wake up with a smile. Knowing that I will be up in the sky that day.

Forget about all the P2F crap. That is horrendous.

Dont be affraid that you stay behind.
I also passed everything first attempt. Had highest average. Well it did not give me a job yet. Also applied in Ryan Air. Still in the system, but NO answer. Did some research on airlines before I send CV out, but did not work out yet. But I had 6 classmates. Since my school was very international we had lot of eastern europeans.

- 1 got job on Dash in Air Baltic within 3 months. Did not have to pay for TR since he is Lithuanian.

- 1 is son of an high guy in Tajikair. Is now flying B757.

- 1 has dad with financial good situation so he is doing P2F in Kazachstan by blacklisted airline on B737CL.

- 1 Ukranian finished his Master Engineering after graduation. After that I dont know. Have no contact with him.

- 1 Russian was still young when he finished training and had to go in Military service.

- 1 Russian was a guy I totally not liked at all. So no contact with him either.

- and myself working as FA in German Regional. Where I am actually very happy :) .

It is good that you make some hours while being FI. But cmon 1 year. I also graduated 1 year ago. It is still nothing.

Think outside the box young guy. I wish I was your age. Life has still to start for you.
Networking is extremely important.

I also had 2 opportunities straight out of school, but I turned those down. 1 P2F where one of my classmates is in Kazachstan.
The other one had to pay also for TR . Then get Permanent Summer Contract which means in the few summer months I would fly some hours. In winter I would be jobless basically. Paid only per Block Hour 13 eu. So you can imagine why I said NO I guess.

Good Luck :) .

[MonarchOrBust]

P40,

I don't know you as an individual but you do seem to display a certain attitude that you are entering this career in the most "correct" way possible and that whatever other people are doing is wrong. I put it to you that whilst you are working as an FA, others having paid for TRs or gone through P2F hoops are already in paid employment earning 3-4x as much as you and advancing their careers quicker.

Also, if one is in a good financial position because they did some other line of work and saved the money to pay for a TR or P2F that is their choice. Not every guy is built for a job as a FA and there aren't that many dispatcher jobs to go around either!

My experience of guys who want a flightdeck job but end up taking a cabin job as FAs is the following:

-They love to think that they are making good contacts with pilots and the C.P but the reality is when the cockpit doors are closed we mostly think you are annoying as hell. FAs who want to be pilots, through lacking experience, inadvertently end up asking and doing silly things that totally destroy their reputation in front of pilots. My last airline had 3 such people.

-Guys like you inevitably realise what a horrible low paid and menial job (sorry if you disagree) this line of work is, after 2-3 years you get sick of it. You either then leave the airline "because nothing is happening" or make a silly move (like writing to the C.P every week) thereby destroying your chances altogether.

-The reality is the contacts you make and even the C.P will most likely not be there in 3-4 years. Any good reputation credits you will have built up will be lost when the management changes. HR alone cannot reward you with a Flight deck position based on your loyalty to the company.

It's not the best path to the flight deck, standing outside it makes no difference. I wish you luck, but the statistics do not favour this route.

[P40Warhawk]

Luckaly the Statistics in the Airline where I work are different. Many Ramp Agents and Flight Attendants are hired as FO's. And TR is paid by the Airline. Not bad at all.

I dont say it is the best route, but atleast I dont help down T&C's.
Paying for TR is something else then P2F.

I am talking about Paying for TR with Job contract after it with proper salary. Say a 2 year contract atleast.

Ryan Air is maybe not the dream airline for everyone, but I would appreciate absolutely the chance I would get there. Look at NAS. That is just horrendous. Paying 25K eu and get kicked out 3 months later. That aint a job.

Wizz salary might be :mad: in the beginning, but from that money you can live quiet ok in Eastern Europe. And as far as I know its a 3 year contract. In those 3 years you fly around say 2100 hours on A320.

What I am against is Pay for TR and LT with no salary and basically no chance of contract after this LT program.

Again, I dont say I walk the holy line to the cockpit. But atleast I learn something while working at the otherside of the cockpit door. Better then sitting at home, because other jobs I cannot get either. Low education jobs I cannot get, because I am to high educated. Higher jobs I cannot get, because employers know that I will be gone whenever the chance pops up to work as FO.

I work hard and hope to get my chance someday. If not, then I continue my search, but giving up AINT an option.

[TBX]

Because this is still my dream

I was in your shoes 13 years ago. In the meantime I've worked as: Flight Dispatcher, Flight Attendant, Flight Instructor, Turboprop pilot at a regional, then B737NG, now A330....you will never find your dream job. This is just a job, and believe me the rewards are extremely poor compared to all the sacrifices you are about to make.
Hopefully you don't have over 100k€ of debt when you realize...:eek:

[ReverseFlight]

I know too many people who have waited and tried for over 10 years and have advanced absolutely nowhere since the day they left flight school.


Those in their 20s have turned into their 30s, and those in their 30s have turned into their 40s, becoming increasing impossible to fit the profile of typical 250-hour cadets sought by the airlines.


But yet these people still head-butt against brick walls every time an airline releases a recruitment advertisement, and getting more and more depressed every time. It's so sad.

[speedbird787]

Patience is the key. Keep up the knowlege and a oppurtinity wiil come some day..grab it with both hands. Be an optimist. My oppurtunity came after 10 years.. But it did came at last.

[maxed-out]

RBGMW,

Because ironically, you need more hours to fly those aircraft than airliners in EASA land.

[Sea Hornet]

In response to the original poster I have to say I'm a little bit confused by what he/she has written.


On the one hand they are saying that they are thinking about walking away from it all...(which might not be a bad idea at age 20 for a few years to get some more perspective on working life so long as they keep the ratings current)


And then on the other they are talking about doing instructing and being willing to make that work...(instructing does lead to other things and I have seen it happen but one has to be smart and strategic about it i.e. don't just settle for part-time ppl work and expect the airlines to snap you up for it - it probably won't happen but if you stick with it and eventually get to instructing CPL and Multi-IR then other aviation doors do tend to open up. This takes hard work and patience however.)


Starting in GA jobs(be it instructing, para-dropping, Susi-Air etc.) takes hard work and perseverance, progressing in them takes more but after a few thousand hours charter/regional/air ambulance/corporate companies take notice - why? Because you are a experienced operator. Getting to this point takes lots of sacrifice, hard work and patience however and this is where a lot of people fall down - in fact I see it all the time unfortunately.


So the key words are really hard work and patience. I'd also add keep networking as much as possible in the background also.


If someone wants to train to be a pilot and go straight into the right seat of a jet without being on a cadetship of some sort then this game is Russian roulette. CTC and Oxford etc. are a surer bet but still it's a gamble at the end of the day.


If one wants to be a pilot and doesn't really care what they fly at the end of their training then to be honest these types of people tend to make it work one way or another and usually end up flying heavy metal a few years down the line anyway. I've seen it happen but you need to read the above again to understand why.


Good luck

[Piloto2011]

Be happy and grateful you have a flying job. It should open more doors.

Two rules: Keep logbook rolling. In the process, take anything that will enhance your profile.

Know a guy that worked the GA five plus years from collecting his ticket from authority, driving piston and turbine props before eventually being offered non-airline jet. Guy paid zilch for any of his types.

In this game patience imperative to have.

Good luck!

[Wodka]

It's taken me 5 years from qualifying to RHS Jet via glider towing, para dropping, instructing, turboprop FO.... It's been a long hard but very satisfying road to travel and I look back and now think wow how the time has flown by... Some great flying, memories and new mates... For me as one of those awful modular people ;) it's just been phase 1 of my career.

As others say, immerse yourself, fly anything, be nice, don't overly hassle people :)

[Luke SkyToddler]

Toughen up princess, you don't know how unbelievably lucky you are.

Go to most countries outside of Europe and you won't get a job on a piston twin without at least 1000 hours piston single. First turboprop FO position maybe with 3000. My friend just interviewed for Southwest Airlines B737 FO, he had 8000 hours, that was pretty average experience in his round of interviews he tells me.

Yeah I know it's different in Europe :rolleyes::rolleyes: but seriously anyone who cries and walks away because they haven't got onto a jet within a year after graduation, deserves zero sympathy and a big reality check.

Instruct for 5 years and then fly turboprops for 10 years after that, and then you've earned the right to be bitter and twisted about jet jobs :ok:

[redsnail]

Luke mate, a bit harsh. I don't think he was moaning about how long it took. I think the post highlights that it is possible without mortgaging yourself to the eyeballs to do a full time course.

Wodka, good on you. :ok:

[Whiskey Hotel]

From what I can see, and my experience in the commercial aviation world is zero, is that the flight schools keep churning out new fATPL's into an environment where jobs for low hours cadets are minimal and conditions in the eventual first jobs they may get are in some cases, disgraceful. I have been debating with myself for the past year over whether to continue with my modular training and seek an airline job, but the harsh and unfortunate reality is that the jobs are scarce and in my eyes is not worth the circa €65-90k investment.

I hope in the future it will change and become more stabilised. Here in Ireland the number of jobless fATPL holders is frightening.

[speed_alive_rotate]

@Whiskey Hotel; Probably doesn't help that our own Irish airlines refuses to hire their own nationals!!!!!!

[Whiskey Hotel]

@ speed alive rotate: Ya that's a killer alright, AFTA in cork had a steady flow of 200hr fATPL's being hired by ryanair up until a year or so ago, now a lot of their graduates are sitting on the shelf awaiting the uncertain future, it's a shame!

[too_much]

Flying in an airline is pretty boring, the day you get the first jet job you are super excited about it, and feel happy.

After a year or less you realize it's just a job and can become very repetitive especially if you fly for EZ or RYR.

It becomes slightly more interesting in the charter or VIP world.

As an FO you will have to put up with some horrible folk to fly with, not everyone but odds are you will fly with more unpleasant captains than nice ones, and find yourself questioning why you signed up for this...

I did the instructor thing, the African thing, jets, VIP etc for over 20 years, about 6 months ago I left aviation and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner!

Still read the pprune to justify my decision to leave industry

Don't stress your not missing out on much.

[wiggy]

As an FO you will have to put up with some horrible folk to fly with, not everyone but odds are you will fly with more unpleasant captains than nice ones,

:hmm:

In the interests of balance may be somebody should point out that it works both ways........as someone told early on during my command conversion "You're about to find out not all the ********* are in the Left Hand Seat".

They were right...........in any job there are always the 10%, if you're seeing more than that maybe it's time for a change of company or perhaps there's a problem elsewhere...

[cgwhitemonk11]

I speak as an FO here, and would be fairly confident most of the ***** in the cockpit nowadays sit in the RHS, sadly…. Yeah sure there will always be Captains you don't like to fly with but it's rare these days I meet an FO I would go for a beer with, regardless of the company by the way.

And OP, you've struggled for a year and feel like giving up? We've all been there but you need to man up (or woman up!) because you will need to be made of sterner stuff if you are going to succeed in this.

A very senior recruiter for a UK airline told me recently that even though they are crying out for pilots ''90% of new fATPL's are completely unemployable'' and that is why they stick to the big schools, it actually has nothing to do with flying hours but the sad reality that most newbies can barely hold a conversation let alone impress at an interview :=

Good luck bro, you are going to need it

[Veren]

@ CG

Out of curiosity, could you elaborate on what exactly makes 90% of fATPL holders unemployable? I'm genuinely interested in knowing.

[cgwhitemonk11]

I'm still junior and not involved in any interviewing process so can't give you a definitive answer to that. However I am 26 years old and am now flying for my fourth company, in time having chatted to many of the top tier guys along the way so if you want me to speculate on where the problem lies:

1) A shocking unwillingness to travel - might seem silly but people are becoming pilots and will only work on a certain aircraft out of a certain base, family commitments are understandable but the lack of flexibility is shocking

2) Not actually looking for jobs, just reading pilot jobs websites and waiting for their golden ticket, I flew for a small UK airline on a multi pilot TP for two years and half the young guys now would consider it beneath them, and the other half don't even know such companies exist even though they have hired 15 pilots in two years and type rate you for free with no bond

3) Guys and girls are sitting at interviews now and fidgeting because they feel uncomfortable without their smart phones in their hands and don't actually have the skills to hold an adult conversation. This is unbelievably common now. You have pages and pages on pprune of guys trying to get interview Q's to a variety of airlines and none of them realise that 99% of todays interviews are based on the Q:
''Do I wanna sit beside this guy and would I trust him/her with my family in the back?''

4) ''I have 250 hours but haven't flown in the last year, haven't made any attempt to fly in the last year, probably won't try very hard in the year to come... but I really really want to be a pilot with your airline….''
Meanwhile the other 10% are out there instructing, dropping parachuters or travelling around the world searching for starter jobs, and those are the guys getting jobs and the ones I'll be hiring if I ever go into that side of it

One final myth which needs to be debunked is the modular vs integrated debate, there is no debate, it is a nonsense. If you want to fly for Easy, go to CTC/Oxford, pay your inflated price and go straight into your jet (yawn….. )

If your under 30 then go modular, save yourself a fortune, spend everything you have saved on beer and beautiful women… fly around in turbo props in scary weather in strange places and develop life experience and a personality! Go get a starter job and eventually you will get into a jet and can bore yourself to death for the rest of your career

For context I am an Integrated grad but along my path have met many modular guys, the majority actually and they have just as much success as anyone else :ok:

[EIPK]

I am just interested in where all these small jobs are flying light twins and small companies. I finished training 8 months ago and just want to fly. Jumping into a jet RHS will come. I want to fly and and get a wage any wage and build time. Any ideas..

[Veren]

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on that! Have to say, I was expecting something more .. I don't even know how to put it - What you described seems just so fundamental to piloting that it just baffles me such individuals actually exist. Not willing to travel? Are you kidding me? TP beneath you? Seems like the most exciting part of aviation these days if you ask me! Definitely an eye opener, thanks for sharing.

I'm also just 26 and only recently got my piece of paper (after saving up and going to uni). I actually hope I'll have the opportunity of flying a (small) TP, like a King Air or Pilatus for example; I actually want to fly an airplane rather than sit in the cockpit with my feet up for 2 hours so to speak!

I'm quite impressed you're already at your 4th company - Really shows that there are plenty of opportunities out there for jobs if you're willing to look! Mind sharing or PM'ing me the name of the TP operator you were talking about? ;)

[speed_alive_rotate]

@cgwhitemonk11: Great last post mate, very informative and you sound like a very sensible person who will make a great captain in the future. Great information and advice for people who are near or have just finished their training! Regards SAR

[pineappledaz]

@cgwhitemonk11 great post fella. Unfortunately I feel that the large group of people you are referring to has had a negative impact on recruiters, as that is the type of person they are seeing all day long. Makes it even harder for the genuine people out there. Whatever happened to going out and getting some life experience.

This is the type of person that I have come across...A fella at my flying school for example finally passed his CPL after his 7th (Yes seventh) attempt and was duly seen photographing himself with a white shirt, 3 golden bars as he was now a commercial pilot. :ugh:

I finally got my licence later in life, have absolutely no interest in airlines but I am absolutely gobsmacked with the attitude of most young people these days. You are certainly a refreshing break from that.

For me I'm going to escape what has become of this industry and fly my own little plane upside down after a days work in the fish bowl.

[cgwhitemonk11]

Cheers SAR, I feel sorry for the guys who are out there trying that can't catch a break but none for the majority who are sitting at home waiting for Ryanair to call. Then again I have friends who are captains with Locos by now who would probably think me a failure for choosing my path but I will be on a Jet at 30, with 30 years ahead of me so whats the rush?! :rolleyes:

Your not gonna become a millionaire doing this but I think people really struggle with that reality after a few years in the business and that has a lot to do with the amount of people who leave, that and the monotony of the job after a time. But there is a solution to that too if you are willing to face it, move to another role or airline, take a pay cut if necessary, if you find yourself 5 years in a single role then I strongly believe you should move on. This requires a flexible and understanding partner which is much harder to find than an airline job I think, there are much more experienced hands on here for that advice however.

I just wish someone had sat me down when I was 18 and said the things I have just said, it would have saved me a lot of time and tears, I spent 2.5 years working in a bar wondering why airlines weren't calling me until i woke up one day and said **** this I need to do something about this myself. I regret few things, but not spending those 2.5 years instructing is one of them. The money is crap yes but at least you are flying and in my last airline and my new one, 50% of the people on the TR courses came straight from instructor jobs so it is a way in.

Off the top of my head, friends have gotten jobs with the following over the last year:

BEA Systems
RVL Group
West Atlantic
Flybe
Skybus
Skydive Ireland
Loganair
Tag Aviation

And thats just people I know! none of them had to give the companies a dime towards their training yet crucially all of them were currently flying in one role or another

[fwjc]

cgwhitemonk11 - that's some great insight you have there, thanks for posting

AIMINGHIGH123 - genuine question because I'm struggling even with my first flying gig. How do you manage to support yourself for those 3.5 years of trying and still keep current with flying? I admire your sticking power but I lnow theres no way I could afford to do it