View Full Version : 2 x Eurofighters + 1 x Apache
TipCap
15th Dec 2014, 14:14
Just out of interest, we have had a single Apache being circled by 2 Eurofighters flying North and South over North Dorset reasonably low level
Wonder what was going on?
TC
Adour
15th Dec 2014, 14:27
Next year's Queen's Birthday Flypast rehearsal?
... sorry:E
Wander00
15th Dec 2014, 14:42
Nah, that would be 1 x Apache, 1 x Eurofighter Typhoon..................
Photo op? Was one of the Typhoons a two-seater with a photographer/videographer in the backseat?
Come on, Ken - who would want to photograph a Helicopeter.............?:D
QRA practice? Fits the bill, although they didn't drop a boomer!
charliegolf
15th Dec 2014, 17:11
Come on, Ken - who would want to photograph a Helicopeter.............?
For railway lines, quarries and river banks and stuff, to scare kids away from danger?
CG
Herod
15th Dec 2014, 17:12
who would want to photograph a Helicopeter
Me....http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr302/peter46/WessexoverFearless_zps5014fea8.png (http://s494.photobucket.com/user/peter46/media/WessexoverFearless_zps5014fea8.png.html)
The gunner sits up front and the pilot in back in an Apache. Maybe the front seat of the Apache had the photo guy in it.
TipCap
15th Dec 2014, 17:27
Herod - Different colour Wessex from the one I used to fly!!
Thanks guys for the response. We have a lot of night helo activity over us in North Dorset at the mo :ok:
TC
Lowe Flieger
15th Dec 2014, 17:44
Practice QRA is a possible answer. Saw something similar near to home in the run-up to the 2012 Olympics, although the slow moving 'target' being circled in that case was a small light aircraft drafted in for the purpose.
Another possibility is dissimilar air-to-air combat simulation (someone will provide the correct description and acronym I'm sure - DAC?).
LF
ASRAAM
15th Dec 2014, 18:29
Engaging a helicopter with a fighter is somewhat more difficult than you might imagine.
Prior to the Bosnia deployment the AD force spent quite a lot of effort practicing against a variety of different helicopters.
It's conceivable the other teams in Syria/ Iraq may be using helicopters so now may be a good time for a refresher course!
Another possibility is dissimilar air-to-air combat simulation (someone will provide the correct description and acronym I'm sure - DAC?).."
USN calls it DACT, Dissimilar Air Combat Training. Topgun was the premier example of that in USN.
And yes, making a gun attack on a helo gunship (that has a turret) with a fighter is not easy. Your best bet is to stay out of range of the helo's gun and use a missile, preferrably a radar guided one rather than IR.
Herod
15th Dec 2014, 20:13
Herod - Different colour Wessex from the one I used to fly!!
TipCat. 78Sqn RAF, based at Khormaksar 1967. Deck training aboard Fearless prior to withdrawal.
Ref fighter v helo, the MOD did trials back in the late sixties. Admittedly it was against guns not missiles, but 1v1 seemed to work by turning towards the fighter until his dive angle/pull-out height forced him to break off. 2v1 a whole different ball game; the helo didn't stand a chance.
Courtney Mil
15th Dec 2014, 20:44
Ken, I think you pasted in your quote from the other thread.
TipCap
15th Dec 2014, 21:32
I was there on Albion with 848 sqdn RN
busdriver02
15th Dec 2014, 22:29
2 fast jets and 1 helo sounds like like a basic training evolution to me, a building block to something more advanced. Either building on counter helo air to air or escort and integrated attack (since it was an Apache).
Evalu8ter
16th Dec 2014, 00:43
Herod,
Boll*cks! Done shed loads of 1v2 against Hawk, Alfa Jet, F15, F3 and Typhoon. Won a lot more than I lost.....suggest you look at this....
J-CATCH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH)
Just because it's fast doesn't mean it's good.....the FJ crews require a lot of specialised trg to be effective against a Helo.
ROTORTREE
16th Dec 2014, 01:22
I did loads of fighter affil in Germany against all sorts of different jets and in various configurations 1v1,1v2 and some total furballs. One of the best Sqns was the Alpha Jets from Oldenburg (431foxes)but it was one of their prime roles in the CW days.
The hardest thing for the jets was to try and finds us in the first place. Bearing in mind that we were in a pre determined box we invariably had to climb to well above our normal operating heights and put all lights on:p
This is possibly what the Apache was doing before the fun ......sorry.....training began
GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
16th Dec 2014, 09:45
Herod, admit it. You were photographing FEARLESS and the other palm-tree got in the way. :ok:
Herod
16th Dec 2014, 09:59
OK Evalu8ter, I take your point, although boll*cks was a bit strong. My experience was back in the late sixties and the helos were unarmed. Basically Wessex v Hunter scenarios.
Wee Weasley Welshman
16th Dec 2014, 10:59
I watched Chinook v Hawk fight over my farm a couple of months back and it was very interesting to behold. Its not that uncommon I suggest.
WWW
Evalu8ter
16th Dec 2014, 12:25
Herod,
Apologies old chap - I was a little 'refreshed' at the time! The problem as I often found was actually working the jets into a position where they could actually find us...including several times against radar jets. Now, if the FJs acquired the helos, and the RW crews were not trained in the correct tactics, then you're probably correct....the 2v2 Scout / Pucara fight in 1982 is a tragic illustration.
Again, sincere apologies.
For whatever its worth, there were a few well documented actual jet vs helo engagements in the first Gulf War. The helos lost. Most were downed by missiles, but two helos were downed by the A-10's 30mm gun and one was hit (in flight!) with a 2000 lb laser guided bomb released by an F-15E. The helo disintegrated.
Sun Who
16th Dec 2014, 17:40
FJ v helo - 1 v 1 and 1 v 2, a fundamental part of the QHTI course, and a hoot to boot:E I assume the course still runs?
Sun.
Evalu8ter
16th Dec 2014, 18:47
KenV,
Indeed - a Hip killed by A10s and a Hind fragged (literally.....) by a Mudhen. I had a pair of F15s simulate that on me once after we'd trashed every mx shot they tried....Neither RW crew were tactically aware, and were operating in hostile skies with little to no support or SA. Both kills were cued by AWACS. The LGB was used as it out ranged the AIM-9.
Far better to study is the Iran/Iraq war; hundreds of all sorts of engagements both FJ v Helo and Helo v Helo.
Sun - the course still runs. Happy days....
its the bish
17th Dec 2014, 07:13
Probably the one mentioned in the NOTAMs last week, (I forget which day now) diagonal orange line running S.E. from Yeovilton to Blandford Forum, worded to the effect of "Air interception exercise involving 3 aircraft of different types" hope this helps in answer to the OP.
chopper2004
17th Dec 2014, 14:09
Though during the time when the AH-58D armed Kiowa Warrior was about to be declassified after the return to Ft Bragg from the Gulf.....they were armed with MIM-32A Stinger. The AH-58D had replaced or supplemented the Nightstalkers A/MH-6 operating off the barges with SEALs on board during Pray Mantis / Prime Chance.
Rumor had it that the Stingers may have been fired against Iranian fighters according to Hans Halberstadt's Army Aviation (Presidio Power series pub circa 1989)
Were we not toying with Blowpipe / Javelin trials on Gazelle in the 80s but nothing came of fruition?
The 80s trials at White Sands with AH-64 firing an AIM-9L but it was not standard arm for the army but again during the Persian Gulf, the USMC armed their AH-1T then AH-1W with AIM-9L.
Cheers
Evalu8ter
17th Dec 2014, 16:00
Oz,
I did say 'fast'...!
IMHO The Jag was the easiest FJ of the lot to beat in a RW; poor vision post merge, poor turning performance, no radar or IRSTS, only one set of eyes and a big-ish planform when (trying to) turn. Never looked comfortable at low speed (no pun intended), but then nor did the F3....Doubtless the HMD and ASRAAM combo (which I think the Indians got?) would have been a massive improvement. The fact is, to set up for a low level lay down attack requires the jet to acquire and maintain tally for a long time, and assumes the Helo doesn't do anything about it. If you can blanket an area with Frag then well done - but it's not as easy to do as it sounds and would require a large slice of luck for one jet with one or two weapons (unless you're plinking from ML with a LGB). When the -15Es did it to me they simulated 2x Mk84 per jet and I was over the water so maintaining either radar or visual padlock was a lot easier....
Great fun trying though......
Evalu8ter
17th Dec 2014, 16:47
That'll be a bite then.....;-)
typerated
17th Dec 2014, 17:20
I remember there was a plan to incorporate a RW exercise around Spadeadam/Otterburn during a Mallet Blow in late 80s.
With both the FJ and RW concentrating on other tasks it would have been interesting to see how much interaction (and kills) there was from the strike packages running into their targets.
To muddy the waters certain helos types would have been deemed as friendly and others as the opposition
I'm guess it got canned over lack of deconfliction!
Herod
17th Dec 2014, 19:36
I'm guess it got canned over lack of deconfliction!
No deconfliction on Ex Sparrowhawk in May '69. We were flying loose gaggles of Wessex, Whirlwind and Scout (iirc) until attacked by the Hunters, when it was every helo for himself. Not unknown to come barrelling round a copse to find a colleague going the other way. We were flying two pilots up, with one keeping a running commentary on tape, while plotting position every few seconds on a 1" OS map. One crew reportedly managed to record, via the throat mike, the noise of the Hunter's engine. :eek:
Mogwi
17th Dec 2014, 22:43
23rd May 1982, Shag Cove, West Falkland. I x Puma with wingtip vortices, I x Augusta 109A gunship with 30mm Aden and another Puma with 30mm on the ground.
They flew too low over an inlet and left a snail trail on the water. Mistake! The gunship escort then tried to run away instead of engaging me with his rockets.
And I used to be a helo pilot!!
Read it all in "Hostile Skies". !!
busdriver02
17th Dec 2014, 22:46
Only the simple fighter pilot tries to turn with a helo for an on bore sight shot. We can't get away, but we'll make your life very frustrating until you run out of gas.
KenV,
Indeed - a Hip killed by A10s and a Hind fragged (literally.....) by a Mudhen. I had a pair of F15s simulate that on me once after we'd trashed every mx shot they tried....Neither RW crew were tactically aware, and were operating in hostile skies with little to no support or SA. Both kills were cued by AWACS. The LGB was used as it out ranged the AIM-9.
The incident I'm referring to involved an Iraqi Hughes 500. It was on the ground when the LGB was released. The flight crew kept the laser designator on the helo as it became airborne and the bomb obliterated it.