RNZAF C-17s

[Bring_back_Buck]

Just heard on the radio that NZ could be in the market for a couple of C-17s. Anyone care to elaborate?

[Boudreaux Bob]

What need do they have for them?

[GreenKnight121]

Ummm - they are a zillion miles from anywhere (other than the Land of Oz), and thus need a long-range airlifter to get anywhere?

:E

[Whenurhappy]

Funny, I heard this the other night. In part needed to support the Antarctic programme, I believe, because of the limited range of the Boeings, and that the C-17 line will be closing shortly, allegedly

[melmothtw]

There are only 2 unassigned 'white tails' left on the line, so unless they've already signed up they'd best get in quick if they don't want to miss out.

[melmothtw]

Boeing say 2 unassigned, but they won't say who has signed up for the others. India and Algeria also in the market but may already have aircraft assigned. I believe there are 12 in all still to roll off the line, of which 10 have been assigned.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Surely Boeing must be giving serious consideration to keeping the line open? It seems to be the strat transport of choice and the more they sell, the more interest there seems to be?! Must be a fair few countries ready to find Herc replacements too; yes, I realise they aren't on the same scale but A400 aside, there aren't a whole bunch of candidates in that bracket these days!

[NutLoose]

You need orders to sustain a line, that said, as they were building a bunch of unassigned white tails you could argue the case to build more unassigned ones.
But one should imagine they had looked at the future sales possibilities before building the final tranche and determined the surplus amount they required. Whether additional ones would sell, now that's the question.
Though your problem may be if the final two are now on the line, suppliers of items already produced and installed may have closed their lines.

[melmothtw]

Canada in the mix too - Defence Department to purchase Boeing C-17 Globemaster III | CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/defence-department-to-purchase-boeing-c-17-globemaster-iii-1.2144472)

Boeing could auction the remainder off to the highest bidder....

[MechGov]

I believe that the USAF are culling some active duty C17 units. Perhaps the ending of combat operations in Afghanistan means that they no longer need the size of fleet that they did. There might be some deals on second hand frames to be had.

[West Coast]

I can find no information relating to the retirement of the C17 beyond the very first one that was somewhat of a one off. Squadrons may be stood down, but I doubt the aircraft are. If anything I would think more C5's not being upgraded might be parked at DMA.

I stand to be corrected.

[tartare]

Bob, Greenknight,
The fact they are miles from anywhere is exactly what suggests to me the C-17 would be a good choice for the RNZAF.
Have long thought they should have two; maybe even four.
Deployments on peacekeeping; aid missions throughout Pacific Rim.
And the annual jolly down to the Ice.
The C-17 is also operated by the neighbours.
Except for the fact that it may be a little too much plane - and too high a cost.
40 squadron's Alberts are pretty ancient.
The sight of a C-17 doing a tactical take off and max rate of climb out of Whenuapai during the airshow a few years ago was a sight to behold.
For a big-ass jet, that thing can get up and go.
On that occasion, flown by a very attractive young female USAF occupant of the front left hand seat too.

[rh200]

On that occasion, flown by a very attractive young female USAF occupant of the front left hand seat too.

Don't believe you, pictures would make you comment have more meaning:E

[tartare]

Pictures of said jet (scroll down).
http://aviationshotzphotography.********.com.au/2012/03/boeing-c-17-globemaster.html

Reference to young female Captain, who was interviewed on TVNZ at the time ISTR.
Still looking...
EDIT:
This may be the crew:
http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090319-F-7824S-368.jpg
She was young, and blonde...
...aren't they all!!!

[deanm]

Nice USAF-issue red polka-dot handbag on the flight deck!

Deanm

[West Coast]

That's what I call a box office.

[tdracer]

Long-lead time for some of the components (e.g. big forgings) is in excess of 24 months. Last C-17 is scheduled to roll out in less than 9 months.
Now, I have no visibility of what arrangements Boeing may have made with the various suppliers, but keeping a line open for over 12 months, essentially doing nothing, while new long-lead parts were sourced would be horrendously expensive.
So it may be possible for Boeing to extend the C-17 production, but it would be very expensive and the resultant airplanes would have to sell for a significant premium to justify the expense.
All a long winded way of saying, it's highly unlikely there will be any more C-17s built beyond what's currently planned.

[Heathrow Harry]

A couple of years I was talking to a senior NZ aid co-ordinator in the S Pacific - she said that the distances involved in mobilising help were a serious problem

With all the best will in the world it took weeks for the NZ Navy to get anywhere with urgently needed bits & peices - and most of their ships are restricted in the Cyclone season as well

A C17 would do nicely I'd have thought

[Roadster280]

When the US builds a new aircraft, it goes into LRP (Low Rate Production) initially. I wonder if it can do the same at the tail end, with the line still open, but say half the rate of production? Stretch out the already-ordered forgings a bit longer..

Still, Mr Boeing wouldn't like that, because it allows potential clients to put off the purchase decision. We do this kind of thing at work frequently. Lifecycle management of once-desirable products is a very difficult thing to get right without upsetting a lot of folk.

Boeing will close the Long Beach plant when the last C17 is produced, so perhaps they'll make more money (or save more money) from that action than any number of residual C17s.

[melmothtw]

When the US builds a new aircraft, it goes into LRP (Low Rate Production) initially. I wonder if it can do the same at the tail end, with the line still open, but say half the rate of production? Stretch out the already-ordered forgings a bit longer..

This is already pretty standard, with companies reducing the rate of manufacture to stretch the line for as long as possible to secure further orders. Indeed, Boeing did as much with the C-17, reducing production from 15 aircraft per year, down to 13, and again down to the current rate of 10. Anything lower than this was just not economically viable.

[KenV]

Boeing say 2 unassigned, but they won't say who has signed up for the others. India and Algeria also in the market but may already have aircraft assigned. I believe there are 12 in all still to roll off the line, of which 10 have been assigned.


There were 13 white tails. Boeing killed three of them. It was cheaper to convert the long lead parts (landing gear, wing spars, etc) already purchased for the last three aircraft into spares than to use those parts to build three complete jets.

Of the remaining 10 white tails, 8 are spoken for, with the contract for two of them already signed. There are only 2 white tails remaining that have no identified buyers, but Boeing has interest from at least 4 different buyers. India in not one of them. India is happy with their 10 already ordered.

[BBadanov]

From open source, I see that Australia (RAAF) signed an LOA for up to 4 of the white tails - 2 confirmed orders, and 2 options (evidently to be confirmed with the release of our 2015 White Paper).

[ORAC]

Another one spoken for....

Canada Increases Global Reach With New Military Transporter (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2014/12/19/canada-increases-global-reach-new-military-transporter/20646707/)

OTTAWA — Canada's defense minister announced Friday the addition of a fifth military transport jumbo jet to its fleet, as the nation continues expanding its combat and humanitarian reach around the world........

Canada is paying Can$415 million (US$358 million) to buy and service the aircraft over 12 years. Canadian airmen will pick up the order in the spring from Boeing's Long Beach, Florida assembly plant.

[Heathrow Harry]

I really don't understand why Mr B would close the line - there seems to be a steady (but low) tick over of orders coming through - certainly more than they are currently getting for the 747-8

What else are they going to use the space for? Might be 20 years before a new airlifter is ordered

[Martin the Martian]

It is quite ironic that only now as the line is being closed interest in the C-17 from international quarters is bigger than ever. I can certainly see India being in the market for more C-17s, and more Middle East countries. I agree it would be a mistake for Boeing to close the line permanently.

[tdracer]

I really don't understand why Mr B would close the line - there seems to be a steady (but low) tick over of orders coming through
The overhead to keep a line open is quite high, and when the rate drops below ~1 month it becomes prohibitively expensive unless you can sell the airplane at a huge premium. It's not just the final assembly - it's all the vendors along the way that can't use that capability for other things. In some cases they can just take the tooling and store it out back, but in other cases they have dedicated setups that take up huge areas.
That helped kill the 757 - the rate dropped low enough that the overhead to keep the line open was so high as to make the aircraft too expensive to sell at a profit.
BTW, Boeing has been telling the world they were close to shutting down the C-17 line for five years, and if you really wanted one you'd better speak now. It was a huge gamble just to do what they did - ~$2.5 billion worth of white tails, that may or may not sell...

[Heathrow Harry]

maybe just sell the line to China................... or Brazil

[TEEEJ]

HH wrote

maybe just sell the line to China.

China's C-17 Clone Faces Its 'Peers' At The Zhuhai Air Show (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/chinas-c-17-clone-faces-its-peers-at-the-zhuhai-air-sho-1656165805)

Chinese man indicted over theft of Boeing C-17 secrets | PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2466160/chinese-man-indicted-over-theft-of-boeing-c17-secrets.html)

Chinese A-400 Copy aka Y30 on the cards | Defence News Daily (http://www.defencenewsdaily.com/asia-pacific-rim/chinese-a-400-copy-aka-y30-on-the-cards/)

[GreenKnight121]

The overhead to keep a line open is quite high, and when the rate drops below ~1 month it becomes prohibitively expensive unless you can sell the airplane at a huge premium. It's not just the final assembly - it's all the vendors along the way that can't use that capability for other things. In some cases they can just take the tooling and store it out back, but in other cases they have dedicated setups that take up huge areas.

As seen here:
Boeing, U.S. Navy in talks about stretching EA-18G jet production | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/19/boeing-fighters-idUSL1N0U302020141219)
Boeing, U.S. Navy in talks about stretching EA-18G jet production
By Andrea Shalal (http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=andrea.shalal&)
WASHINGTON Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:09pm EST

Dec 19 (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy on Friday said it was in talks with Boeing Co about slowing production of its EA-18G electronic attack jets to keep the St. Louis facility running through the end of 2017, after Congress approved funding for 15 more planes.

The Navy is seeking to modify Boeing's existing contract for EA-18G jets, or Growlers, and F/A-18 Super Hornets to add the extra jets funded by Congress in the fiscal 2015 U.S. budget, said Rob Koon, spokesman for the Navy's Naval Air Systems Command.

President Obama on Tuesday signed the fiscal 2015 spending bill into law. It includes $1.46 billion for 15 more Growlers, and up to $100 million to cover the cost of slowing the current production rate from three to two aircraft a month.

By building two jets a month instead of three, Boeing will be able to stretch jet orders through the end of 2017, preserving the tooling and jobs associated with the line for as long as possible.

Koon gave no details on the cost of "stretching" the production line, or when the two sides are likely to reach agreement on a modified contract.

.....

Boeing has said it needs to build at least two planes per month to keep production costs economical.

[Heathrow Harry]

Thanks TEEJ - looks like it's the Brazilians then.................. ;)

[KenV]

When the US builds a new aircraft, it goes into LRP (Low Rate Production) initially. I wonder if it can do the same at the tail end, with the line still open, but say half the rate of production? Stretch out the already-ordered forgings a bit longer..


1. The C-17 build rate is already below 10 a year. It can't get much lower than it already is.

2. Boeing and USN are working on exactly this for the Super Hornet line. Congress just approved funding for a batch of EF-18 Growlers and Boeing is working with NAVAIR to stretch out production of these aircraft to mid 2017 to keep the production line warm as long as possible.

[GreenKnight121]

1. The C-17 build rate is already below 10 a year. It can't get much lower than it already is.

2. Boeing and USN are working on exactly this for the Super Hornet line. Congress just approved funding for a batch of EF-18 Growlers and Boeing is working with NAVAIR to stretch out production of these aircraft to mid 2017 to keep the production line warm as long as possible.

1. Since the sub-contractor lines have been shut down completely, and all that Boeing is doing is putting together the sub-assemblies already delivered, the rate is effectively 0 now.

2. As described in my post of 2 weeks ago.

[Paul1050]

2xC-17's currently before cabinet. AppareJuly the price is too good to pass up. Likely maintained by RAAF but crewed by NZ. ie 2 frames would go into RAAF pool and RNZAF would place a DET of 3 crews in Australia to fly them. As eluded to earlier the purchase is purely based on Antarctic capability .

[Heathrow Harry]

St Helena longliner adrift in Antarctica rescued by USAF ? MercoPress (http://en.mercopress.com/2008/01/06/st-helena-longliner-adrift-in-antarctica-rescued-by-usaf)

St Helena longliner adrift in Antarctica rescued by USAF -2008