Now where the heck did I put that MPA?

[airsound]

Never mind going home early for Crimble - there's a very sad story in Aviation Week today.LONDON—The U.K. called in assistance to help hunt for a foreign submarine off the west coast of Scotland starting in late November. Maritime patrol aircraft (MPAs) from France, Canada and the U.S. conducted patrols in conjunction with British surface warships in the search for the submarine in late November and the first week of December, operating out of RAF (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=27110) Lossiemouth in northern Scotland.
If you feel you can take it, you'll find the full story, by Tony Osborne, at
Canadians, French, U.S. Hunt For Submarine Off Scotland | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/canadians-french-us-hunt-submarine-scotland)

I despair
airsound

[BEagle]

So not content with having to borrow kit from better-equipped nations on operational detachments, the UK itself is now having to borrow core capability from other nations....

Appalling.

Although Nimrod MRA4 was an utter pig* (apart from its very capable mission system), when it was turned into saucepans the UK should have decided on a more modern and capable alternative, such as the P-8 or even an A320-family based MPA.

But no. Our sandaholic MoD seemed to forget about anything that wasn't connected with OP FAILURE-ON-THE-NW-FRONTIER.....:mad:

*Described by one pilot, who I will not identify, as "The worst aeroplane I've ever flown".

[Bannock]

The French for gods sake! Things must be bad.

[INT ZKJ]

Foreign submarine........West Coast of Scotland.

What could there possibly be of interest out that way??


They'll be sticking a MAD boom on the Sentinel next to try and get out of this hole!!

:ugh:

[MATELO]

They could have given me a shout, I would have popped up and had a quick look about.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Pegasus_quantum_15-912_microlight_g-byff_kemble_arp.jpg/220px-Pegasus_quantum_15-912_microlight_g-byff_kemble_arp.jpg



ps... if anybody else is avail, we could go dual.

[Phoney Tony]

Did our friends find anything?

Hostile aircraft would be intercepted with a show if force.

Hopefully the MPA deployed were able to provide a credible deterrent even if we can not.

[Heathrow Harry]

"the UK itself is now having to borrow core capability from other nations"

our masters have decided MPA is NOT a core capability

why else do we have allies?

[Not_a_boffin]

It's the Homer Simpson Defence Planning Assumption - "why can't someone else do it?"

[airborne_artist]

"the UK itself is now having to borrow core capability from other nations"

our masters have decided MPA is NOT a core capability

why else do we have allies?

How many other island nations are there in NATO?

Just the one other last time I looked, which can't really afford defence as it was taken down by greedy bankers, unlike the UK .... oh wait :\

[Party Animal]

our masters have decided MPA is NOT a core capability



Oh no they haven't.

It was the Nimrod MRA4 that was scrapped - not the requirement for an MPA capability. Our masters are just expecting (or hoping) that our allies will provide the core capability for us.

[Bannock]

Playing devils advocate here. What are we providing to our allies to fill their gaps/core capability ?
C17s to the French should start the ball rolling.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/raf-c-17-aircraft-depart-for-mali-mission

[KenV]

Maybe I'm asking a stupid (or perhaps emotionally loaded) question, but could this Mali mission have been done with A400s?

[Danny42C]

Or what about these "Drones" we're all talking about ? Or what about an airship ? (have they knocked down the sheds at Cardington ?)

[N707ZS]

Last time we had these sort of cuts the Argentinians pinched the Falklands!

[Darvan]

Strictly speaking, in capability terms, there is no such thing as an MPA capability. What is required is a platform that can conduct 'Sea Surveillance', 'ASW' and 'ASuW' with the ability to carry out SAR as and when needed. An MPA platform may be able to fulfil most, if not all, of those functions. Bit of pedantry I know but that is how our capability planners would describe it.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Danny

Drones can do some maritime surveillance but not ASW - See the USB's Triton programme.

Cardington hangars are all Grade 1 listed buildings, so they shouldn't be going anywhere soon.

Sea Surveillance
Bit of pedantry and a bit wrong. Be careful what you wish for. Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (http://www.boeing.com/advertising/bma/se/msa.html) generally don't do ASW, a key role for an MPA

[Flypro]

So where were the RN Merlins?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Oh Danny, forgot to mention: Airships - have you seen the current North Atlantic weather forecast?? 😉

[drustsonoferp]

Three Merlins went with Argus down to Sierra Leone.

[betty swallox]

Heathrow Harry.

Naive as ever. Our "allies" will only stomach this for so long....

[betty swallox]

...and by your argument, if you can call it that, maybe we should dissolve all of our Armed Forces, and just rely on our allies for everything.


Can't believe I've risen to your nonsense...

[MOA]

Can't believe I'm going to do this, but...

Beagle - I wouldn't believe all you're told.

Granted, the baseline aircraft was an utter pig; very poor long stab, poor harmonisation between roll and pitch forces, poor stalling characteristics and ridiculously large roll rates at high Mach numbers and more. However all these had been addressed for the production aircraft.

The aircraft, once the SAS and stick pusher, single aileron cable, gurney flaps, 20/10 ailerons were installed was actually a pleasure to fly. Considerably easier and less fatiguing than the venerable MR2.

[Willard Whyte]

betty, I would like to think HH was being sarcastic.

[Hangarshuffle]

What Flypro said. Why weren't Merlins used then? We've still got 814 and 820 haven't we, taking up an amazing amount of taxpayers money in wages and all?
Answer, Air Arm types serving.
Or is it beyond capability as well? (No platform for them anyway, with the demise of CVS and the RFA decks).

[Seaking93]

814 currently converting to HM2 and have no airframes I believe, while 820NAS split in 2, half in Africa and half Middle East

[Heathrow Harry]

I was ..................

but if you follow Betty's arguments to a logical conclusion we should be completely equipped for every eventuality as we might have to fight totally without support

I don't think we've ever managed that - not even in 1945

[Bannock]

Just a little reminder of why we should care about a "transitting' sub from a nation whos economy is imploding under western Sanctions. And why protecting SLOCS are crucial to all of us.

Maritime Choke Points - Think Defence (http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/12/maritime-choke-points/)

[Heathrow Harry]

yeah - if they are closed none of those Chinese products can reach us - hmmm............ :cool::cool:

[Hangarshuffle]

Amazing how fast the forces sank to nothing in some departments and sectors, I never can never get over it sometimes. It seems like last week we had 3 CVS, a lot of Sea Kings, a lot of RFA platform...all quickly gone.
Press haven't really scorched any ministers over this, that I've heard, ignorance being bliss. I don't think apart from some old pro's on here, anybody really cares.
Realistically, and although it is (fingers crossed) unlikely, if we were ever confronted by an even moderate sized aggressive submarine menace, Britain is truly doomed to starve (again). And on that note, I'm cracking the beer and port open.

[Heathrow Harry]

Don't worry - Nigel farage will deport all those immigrants and we'll have LOADS of food.....................

[Hangarshuffle]

Just been looking at the papers, and we are still nearly £1,500,000,000,000 in debt to the world. And with a budget deficit of 5.2% of our annual GDP.
Which is why we haven't got MPA, CVS any more etc. anyway.
It will take the wisdom of Solomon to ever get out of this finacial mess, which we never now will anyway.
So don't expect any new military assets soon. And keep buying from abroad, someone might say in a foreign accent.

[Willard Whyte]

Don't worry - Nigel farage will deport all those immigrants and we'll have LOADS of food.....................

But, but, who will harvest the sugar beet for 50p an hour?

[fincastle84]

But, but, who will harvest the sugar beet for 50p an hour?

What a stupid remark! The fact that we, as an island nation, have no MPA is a national disgrace about which I am ashamed. Please don't cheapen the argument by petty political party trivia.

I spent many arduous but happy & rewarding hours of my Maritime career detecting & tracking Russian nucs all over the North Atlantic & I know how long it takes to build up the necessary expertise in this specialist task. Even if, after the next election, we somehow get a government which really believes in the defence of the nation, it will take a long time before we can again really feel on top of the job.

Rant over.

[jonw66]

Fincastle
I am sure Willard agrees with what you say wholeheartedly but unfortunately being "on top of the job" as we remember it is not likely to happen in my lifetime or yours the way things stand.
Everybody has great respect for the Kipper Fleet and what you did but I can only see things getting worse for the foreseeable.
That's not to say I am happy about it but that's where we are.:{
Best Regards
Jon

[betty swallox]

Oh Harry. I'm convinced you're just on here to pi$$ people off. And, frankly, you're not even that good at that.
I REALLY don't think you need post any more. You haven't a clue about maritime, MPA or any future MMA.

Why not give it a rest fella, and go trawl on some other thread where folks might actually try debate with your nonsense. No one on here gives a hoot mate. There are still some peeps on here passionate about the capability. Your "arguments" are pointless, ill-founded and immature.

So let us have a well structured debate, devoid of crass comments and pontificating about what you know little.

I'm afraid we're now past the point of debating whether a maritime capability is essential or not. The recent news on this thread vindicates that. SDSR 15 looms ever closer. And we need the capability. If you have an opinion otherwise, that's now largely irrelevant. And if you wish to keep posting nonsensical posts.....

Don't.

[betty swallox]

ps. It's not 1945. It's almost 2015. The way in which we fight from the air has changed significantly. In case you hadn't noticed.

[FantomZorbin]

But what did 'they' leave behind???




*Apologies if this point has been raised and I missed it; ITC I'll delete this

[Reinhardt]

The French Breguet Atlantique are excellent MPA aircraft, made especially for submarine hunting. In fact they have been, for long, the only dedicated airfram built and designed from scratch for that purpose.
They have been constantly updated, can launch Exocet missiles, and all the antisubmarine stuff. To search for smugglers or rescue people out in the blue, they are anyway a little bit overpriced - that's why a significant number of Falcon 50 (and some Falcon 20) have been acquired and tailored for the job (appropriate radar, drop hatch, extra windows, even small pods to launch rockets...) So France has three types of MPA aircraft....


and the French navy is always available to help our so-good friends from over the Channel (same for aircraft-carriers ...) unless there is better to do in Africa or the Middle-East, where those aircraft are also used over the desert. So if they are too busy guys, sorry - try to find those subs off Scotland using combat divers, or charter Monarch or easyjet with sets of googles in the cockpit...
http://www.pprune.org/

[Yellow Sun]

Dunno, but given that their reaction time was no doubt severely increased due to an involuntary and extended bout of rolling on the floor laughing, I expect not.

Yes, time late at datum measured in days.

YS

[Biggus]

While I realize that what politicians say before they are elected and what they actually do after they are elected are very different things, reading

BBC News - Ed Miliband: We'll tackle deficit with 'sensible' cuts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30417955)

implies that if Labour are in power/coalition post 2015 then every government department except the NHS (and you can expect Education to eventually be added) will face budget cuts year on year until the annual deficit is reduced.

All parties are falling over themselves to state how they will reduce the deficit, against this background I can't see how SDSR 2015 will be anything other than another capability, for which read cost, cutting exercise.

Funding for new assets (such as MPA/MMA) is likely only to be feasible if something else is given up. Depressing times for the military as asset after asset, base after base and capability after capability disappears.

Oh, government sector workers can also expect minimal pay rises for years to come, which the government of the day will justify on the basis that inflation is currently only 1.2%.

[LowObservable]

the only dedicated airframes built and designed from scratch for that purpose.

But not any more....

http://www.jetwashaviationphotos.com/siteimages/5502%20Atsugi%2012-10-11.jpg

Danny 42C - Airships? You should know better than to play the Summons Leon Jabachjabicz card....

[Biggus]

No doubt the sex change didn't help either!

He was one of my last AEOp students...

...has made her very bitter...

...as a student she showed....

[AreOut]

airships actually aren't bad idea for this purpose if you are tight on a budget, they can stay in air for much longer than planes and while they are quite slow they are still faster than subs :)

also, they are cool

[betty swallox]

Cheers Gear,
Not really biting. Just venting!
But I'm surprised that he/she/it can even spell MR2 given the f*ckwittery of the comments...

And yes, airships ARE cool.

[The Old Fat One]

So let us have a well structured debate, devoid of crass comments

good idea

I'm afraid we're now past the point of debating whether a maritime capability is essential or not. The recent news on this thread vindicates that. SDSR 15 looms ever closer. And we need the capability

Completely agree

But...

All parties are falling over themselves to state how they will reduce the deficit, against this background I can't see how SDSR 2015 will be anything other than another capability, for which read cost, cutting exercise.

Funding for new assets (such as MPA/MMA) is likely only to be feasible if something else is given up.


This is inescapable, unarguable logic too

So lets have the debate even shall we. What (out of the defence budget) are we for cutting to get the MPA/MMA capability back.

And don't even go down overseas aid/NHS rant road...because basically that is as crass as any other comment on here.

Here's my starter for 10

Bin everything PR related (Red's, BoB flight, all bands)

Outsource (to a private company...not the MOD CS) all of the following:

all medical and dental, all admin & HR, all legal,

Bin the RAF Regiment and give all its roles (including training) to the Army.

Target a 10 percent reduction in uniformed personnel thru the above cuts.

that might do it.

Or bin a big ticket item

The IND?
The Carriers?

I'm not suggesting any of the above is feasible. I'm suggesting finding the money out the defense budget to restore an MPA/MMA capability will hurt like hell.

And thinking the the defence budget will be increased to get it back is just fantasy land (or crass if you prefer).

[Roland Pulfrew]

Or bin a big ticket item

The IND?


If we bin CASD (IND is sooo last year, dahling) then we also remove the primary role of the MPA so we either:

a. Don't need MPA
b. Buy something that doesn't have the cost of the P-8.

Win; win. :E

Hat, coat, taxi!

[The Old Fat One]

^^

I'm a last year kinda guy :{...only use MMA to try and keep the peace.

Of course your logic is sound (much the same argument applies to the {CVA?} ;)

Really just making the point that yes we need the capability back, but where the heck will we find the money. And any debate that does not acknowledge the extreme difficulty is neither balanced nor structured.

[Roland Pulfrew]

I would also argue that we cannot bin BBMF - they are the only types in the inventory with no OSD; we might need them on ops. How many Paveway IVs could you get in the Lanc's bombbay and the Hurricane made a pretty good CAS aircraft (although I would prefer a Typhoon (Hawker not Eurofighter);))

[Jayand]

Given the latest and loudest calls yet for austerity over the coming years it is pretty clear if it wasn't before (and it was ) that the MOD won't be procuring an MMA, MPA any time in the foreseeable future.
The perceived real or not need for the capability is sadly irrelevant with the future spending plans.
The cynic in me questions whether or not there was actually anything spotted off the West coast at all or was it actually a well timed piece of propaganda by the pro maritime brigade?

The larger question does remain, do we need the outrageously expensive Trident replacement?
Who exactly is it deterring? not the terrorists!
And can it be done with a modern, cheaper alternative? Surface, subsurface and air launched TLAM?

[Selatar]

Even though the MMA/MPA is way up the agenda at high Wycombe, Northwood and Town, the financial outlook is dire. Personally, I think something will come out of the next SDSR and it will be painted as a huge win surrounded by some shocking reductions elsewhere. What exactly that capability will be is the big question but I venture it will be small, cheap and a long way from a P-8 squadron.

In terms of cuts to the reds and BBMF, this represents political folly. They will stay. Changes in funding structure may save a few pence.

3 bands left in the RAF I think. You can chop em but the army won't let you as they really like theirs and so does the queen. If we chop ours the army are likely to face similar pressure. Equally you would save pennies.

Whilst binning the 50 or so lawyers sounds attractive. It's a joint capability and we would still need lawyers so that's a large annual contract required to service. RAF lawyers are also in kinetic kill chains, not normally something we let civies do.

Admin and HR perhaps but again that will be a big serco contract to replace what is still left.

Bin the Regt and let the army do it. They don't want to and have just handed over the NBC regiment to the Regt. However, I do suspect this one will be on the agenda next year as in army eyes it may save regiments.

10% manpower reduction. Should save around 150m a year ish based on 3000 folks going. Such a reduction over 5 years will probably only keep the manpower bill flat vice offer up a tangible saving. ie its a given.

In essence there are lots of hard questions for next year and big numbers needed. Small trimmings like retiring the HS125 next year and shutting the rescue centre at kinloss are small beer. Affording any kind of decent MPA in the reducing mil budget will be very very hard.

[tucumseh]

The experts are meeting again next week;

Defence Committee Select Committee Announcement 12 December 2014 For Immediate Release: FUTURE FORCE 2020 Wednesday 17 December 2014 The Grimond Room, Portcullis House Witnesses from the Ministry of Defence: At 2.30 pm * Rt Hon Michael Fallon MP, Secretary of State for Defence * Air Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier, Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff (Military Capability) * Peter Watkins, DG Security Policy This is the third session for this inquiry. On 2 July 2014 the Defence Committee announced a new inquiry into Future Force 2020. This followed the Committee's earlier work looking at the Future Army 2020. The 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review set out the Government's plans for the Armed Forces called Future Force 2020. The Committee is particularly concerned about the relevance, size and quality of the Armed Forces. The Committee is particularly interested in examining. * The impact on the plans for Future Force 2020 of the challenging global political and security context, including in Ukraine, the Middle East and Africa and the changing size, structures and priorities of other international forces including those of the UK's usual allies. * Whether the implementation of Future Force 2020 will provide the flexible, agile and operationally capable force required. * The impact of the Levene Reforms on the Armed Forces, in particular, how the Joint Forces Command (JFC) will operate with the other three Services on operations and in providing contingent capability and the effect of the delegation of budgets to the three Services and JFC for equipment and other expenditure. * The costs of the reforms.

[Sandy Parts]

"The experts are meeting again next week" - is that the nocker's xmas lunch? :p Merry crimbo to all ex nimrod (MR2, MRA4 and R1) aviators and engineers. Looks like Op DenyXmas continues without us....(see other thread re allies helping out) :)

[The Old Fat One]

TBC Selatar (and I think I was)

I was not advocating any of the aforementioned cuts in my list...I was demonstrating that unless one is prepared to think the unthinkable, there is little point in discussing future MMA/MPA since there is no money to buy one.

That said, I think a rethink of PR is feasible in today's world.

Why do any of the armed forces need any PR whatsoever? It is the governments job to sell their public spending manifesto to joe public - let them do it and foot the bill. Bin every single job in the Armed Forces that's primary function is PR. Aside from getting rid of things like the Red Arrows, is should shift a hefty chunk of manpower and workload off the books.

Likewise if the country want a museum flight, let the Department of Culture fund it.

If we need the ultimate leaning exercise we need leadership that can front up with innovative, bold and courageous thinking.

[tucumseh]

And following on from Min(AF)'s statement that retired officers play no part whatsoever in formulating Defence policy;


Defence Committee Select Committee Announcement 12 December 2014 For Immediate Release: DECISION MAKING IN DEFENCE P0LICY Tuesday 16 December 2014 Committee Room 15, House of Commons Witnesses: At 10.00 am * Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, former HM Ambassador to Kabul, and former Special Representative to the Foreign Secretary for Afghanistan and Pakistan At 10.45 am * Brigadier (Retired) Ed Butler At 11.30 am * Lieutenant General (Retired) Sir Robert Fry * Mr Desmond Bowen, former Director General of Policy, Ministry of Defence

[Heathrow Harry]

"Oh Harry. I'm convinced you're just on here to pi$$ people off. And, frankly, you're not even that good at that.
I REALLY don't think you need post any more. You haven't a clue about maritime, MPA or any future MMA."

If you WANT to restrict the thread to those who just keep crying over the loss of heavyweight MPA capability (as opposed to a modified EADS CASA C-235) I understand.

Believe it or not I think the loss of the Nimrod capability was a criminal mistake for a country like ours and that something needs to be done ASAP to replace at least some of that capability.

HOWEVER - I live in the real world - I see what the politicians and press say, I listen to the average Joe in the street and TBH NO-ONE CARES ABOUT AN MPA

We have to try and convince, by hook or by crook, the Treasury to stump up for something new - we might succeed if we can keep the cost down - but wailing over what we had is never going to convince anyone.

Time to move on

If you want to celebrate the past there is always the History & Nostalgia pages

[Selatar]

Old fat one: clear whilst perhaps I was not. Let's say I was adding flesh to your pain and grief suggestions!

Regt deletion aside more substantial areas need to be tackled to match the cuts let alone find a large amount for a through life MPA/MMA. A large amount is heavily tied up in sustain contracts, procurement, PFIs, maintaining the estate ie renting and maintaining quarters, pensions, etc etc. All difficult to untangle but it is here where the money is. Well, and typhoon of course...

I'm not sure cutting a couple of hundred PR related blue suites (if that excluding the reds) will make much of a difference. All helps I suppose.

[Just This Once...]

The Reds go in 2018 anyway and there is zero appetite to bring that date forward.

[ian16th]

Submarine Hunt Could Be Timely Reminder For Britain | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/submarine-hunt-could-be-timely-reminder-britain?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20141215_AW-05_333&YM_RID=%27email%27&YM_MID=%27mmid%27&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_4&elq=~~eloqua..type--emailfield..syntax--recipientid~~&elqCampaignId=~~eloqua..type--campaign..campaignid--0..fieldname--id~~)

[Biggus]

ian16th,

Your link was effectively how this thread was started by the OP in post one.

Post 47 by TOFO effectively sums up the situation and the problem, a perceived military need vs no money available to meet it.

Solution? That's the hard bit. Answers on a postcard to UK MOD....

[HAS59]

I was going to stay out of this but ...

Someone asked a while back "What are we for cutting from the defence budget to get the MPA/MMA capability back?"

Then we all went into the usual gloom and doom mode "Oh no we cannay afford it - we're all Doomed I tell ye, Doomed!" etc.

Well as we all know it's people in uniform which costs the most. Buying the bloody aeroplanes is cheap by comparison the cost of running them. We will need people in established posts to run them. Establishing new posts will be an uphill struggle.

So look around ...

See if you can identify a squadrons worth of established posts in a unit whose aeroplane is not funded beyond 2018.

Got it?

Number Five (so-called Army Co-Operation) Squadron, the current Sentinel operators are ripe to be transformed into the new MMA Squadron. The number RAF posts will remain and I suspect the Army posts will be filled by Royal Navy personnel.

We could try to flog off the Sentinel Airframes and ground stations to some gullible customer, whom Raytheon could keep on supporting.

This will be politically acceptable as it will be no 'New' or increased personnel required. It will be seen as 'Old (single-role) aircraft out - new (multi-role) aircraft in'.

What we WILL get is of course a whole different topic. But hey - "Cheer up me old muckers." It's not as bad as some of you seem to think.

[KenV]

The French Breguet Atlantique are excellent MPA aircraft, made especially for submarine hunting. In fact they have been, for long, the only dedicated airfram built and designed from scratch for that purpose.



Agreed. However, the P-2 Neptune was "designed from scratch" as a patrol bomber and I understand (but cannot confirm) that Argentina still operated one until very recently. The S-3 Viking is a more modern "designed from scratch" sub hunter and was used in front line service by USN until fairly recently.

[Roland Pulfrew]

HAS

a couple is small problems with your cunning plan

1. After 18 there are no established posts, they all become unfunded.
2. No of personnel on a Sentinel crew v no of personnel on any chosen MPA crew.
3. All of the personnel on 5 are already pencilled into the aircrew and groundcrew posting plots so keep them and you cause a hole elsewhere!

[HAS59]

Ah but a cunning plan is all that's needed to interest a politician keen to make a name for himself/herself.
It's one of the better cunning plans out there, apart from a few details.
1. The gap between SDSR in 2015 and 2018 gives time for thought re the number of posts to remain funded.
2. The numbers needed will be boosted by the Seedcorn returnees, enough to re-start the capability.
3. I'm sure that a number of those 5 Sqn slots are already pencilled in with "MMA" (in very light pencil admittedly)


(Wasn't Roland a Hun Kite?)


Cheer up chaps.

[GreenKnight121]

(Wasn't Roland a Hun Kite?)

No, he was military governor of the Breton March[/URL], responsible for defending Francia's frontier against the Bretons. ;)

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_March)

[HAS59]

Thanks GreenKnight (was he a distant relative?)


The Roland to which I was referring was of course the LFG Roland C.ll biplane of 1916 (as manufactured by Luft-Fahrzeug-Gesellschaft G.m.b.H.)


H

[Jayand]

Geardown, can I remind you of the forum rules, Re Heathrow Harry!
"Do not 'out' (reveal or attempt to reveal) the identity of another poster"
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and anonymity if they so desire.