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GreenKnight121
6th Dec 2014, 05:46
Witness reports are of mid-flight tail separation:

2 dead after helicopter crashes into building in North Salt Lake | The Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/news/1899140-155/helicopter-crash-reported-in-north-salt)


The tail rotor from the helicopter was about 250 to 300 feet from the building, and debris from the crash was spread along 900 North.

"We know that we have debris at least a half-mile northeast of the crash site," Black said.


(Trent Nelson | The Salt Lake Tribune) The tail rotor from a crashed helicopter sits roped off in a parking lot as a medical helicopter takes off at the scene of a helicopter crash near 500 West 900 North in North Salt Lake, Tuesday December 2, 2014.
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=NP9A8ExfmxVOe6G jWpPKD8$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYssL4fktQAj9tbon8q7H1c3WCsjLu883Yg n4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoM evcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

2 men killed in North Salt Lake helicopter crash had 'huge passion' for flying | Deseret News (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865616951/2-men-killed-in-North-Salt-Lake-helicopter-crash-had-huge-passion-for-flying.html)

By Morgan Jacobsen (http://www.deseretnews.com/author/23100/Morgan-Jacobsen.html), Deseret News Published: Wednesday, Dec. 3 2014 6:45 p.m. MST
Updated: Thursday, Dec. 4 2014

NORTH SALT LAKE — Many questions remain unanswered after a helicopter crashed into a building in North Salt Lake on Tuesday (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865616837/2-killed-when-helicopter-crashes-into-North-Salt-Lake-building.html), killing two men.

But this much is clear: Claus Hauer and Bruce Orr died doing what they loved.

"They had a huge passion for aviation, a huge following of people here at the airport and other airports. A lot of people knew who they were," said Chris Volzer, who oversees incoming and departing aircraft at Skypark Airport in Woods Cross. "Probably some of the nicest people, good-hearted people."

But their love for flying and experience with aircraft makes it harder for those who know them to understand what went wrong.

"We're in a dazed state. Surreal. We're waiting for information," Orr's son Brian Orr said Wednesday. "Today is a day of walking around not knowing what to do."

The two men took off from Skypark Airport in a Robinson R-44 helicopter and crashed onto the roof of a building at 501 W. 900 North just before 2 p.m, according to Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Allen Kenitzer.

Ben Tidswell, the pilot for KSL Chopper 5 and "close personal friend" of Hauer and Orr, was sitting in his helicopter at the airport when he saw the helicopter fly by, followed by sounds of mechanical failure.

"I watched the helicopter pass by in front of me then go out of sight behind some buildings, and I could still hear the helicopter flying," Tidswell said. "Then I heard 'wink, wink, wink,' and then nothing at all. The engine noise went away; the rotor blade noise went away. There was no noise at all. … Generally, if the sound goes away, that's a problem."

Seconds later, Tidswell's mechanic opened the helicopter door and told him he had seen the helicopter break apart midflight.

"So we jumped in cars and went over there and looked at all the wreckage sitting everywhere," Tidswell said.

Other witnesses also reported seeing the aircraft fall apart in the sky.

Volzer said the two men were well-known among local aviators, who mourn their deaths.

"It's a very tight community," he said. "If anything happens, good or bad, it spreads fast because it's a very, very close community."

The bodies of Hauer and Orr were pulled from the wreckage Tuesday night, according to North Salt Lake police. No one on the ground was injured, but the building sustained significant damage.

On Wednesday, the flight's purpose, the original condition of the aircraft and the cause of the crash were all unclear.

"I don't think it's worth speculating," Tidswell said. "I would say this: It is incredibly rare for any kind of aircraft, whether it be helicopter or fixed-wing, to break up in flight like that. There's going to be a lot of questions that need to be answered."

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the crash in conjunction with the Federal Aviation Administration and the helicopter's manufacturer. Investigators were taking GPS plots of the wreckage and gathering witness statements Wednesday, according to National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Andrew Swick.

Swick said a preliminary report will be completed within a week with basic information and witness statements. But a final report with the official determination of what caused the crash could take as long as 18 months to complete, he said.

Investigators are considering elements such as weather, human factors, safety of flight, maintenance backgrounds and the pilot's experience, Swick said.

"Right now, we're just gathering those facts," he said. "Witness statements are coming in. Once we look at those, we'll assess what we have."

Investigators look down on the remains of a helicopter that crashed onto an empty building Tuesday afternoon, killing two men on board, Wednesday, Dec. 3, 2014, in North Salt Lake. (Tom Smart, Deseret News)
http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/midres/1449736/1449736.jpg

6th Dec 2014, 06:00
Hmmmm. broke up in mid-air???? That tail boom looks just like it has been severed by a MR blade and there are lots of reasons that could have happened, not just a mechanical failure.

Vertical Freedom
6th Dec 2014, 07:50
Rest in Peace departed Brother's :(

Boudreaux Bob
6th Dec 2014, 13:28
Crab,

You did read the account where a Helicopter Mechanic observed the Aircraft come apart in the air? His comment did not mention any unusual maneuver.

At this time, although you are factually correct, I would suggest speculating on any cause is premature.

Can we just accept the fact there was a tragic event that took the lives of two Pilots and it shall be investigated and reported upon.

As accurate and relevant information is released....then folks can start the "Speculation Game" but at least it can be based upon something of substance.

army_av8r
6th Dec 2014, 16:29
There was a B206 that came apart inflight in st louis, missouri back in 2010. it was a result of low fuel, engine failure, and incorrect control inputs. this caused the helicopter to enter a low/ zero G descent, and Mast bumping/ tailboom contact. the aircraft came apart inflight, and was destroyed. no idea what happened here, but the circumstances seem to fit that same series of events... possible engine failure(for undetermined reason), collective reduced abruptly, and no aft cyclic. aircraft enters zero G dive, and cyclic movements then cause Mast Bumping/ Tailboom contact.

Bellrider
6th Dec 2014, 16:44
@ Bob

Check the name of this forum!
Pprune!!
If there's no discussion about the" how does it happened", those communities are boring.....
Read and learn from other postes! And you have the chance to fly more save than other do!

Gordy
6th Dec 2014, 16:48
I was wondering how long this one would stay silent.....I saw the smoke from it when it happened on Tuesday. (Yes I am actually home for a week or two...).

Rumor and speculations:

Observation # 1.

Looking at the tail boom, it appears that the metal skin is bent outwards. Taken at face value, this "could" mean that the separation chain began by the TR drive shaft failing and tearing the skin from the inside, as opposed to being cut from the outside by the main rotor blade. Although the MR blade does show evidence of striking something.

Observation # 2.

It has been "suggested", (pure rumor at this point), that the main transmission gearbox is still attached to the aircraft. This was not the case in the low-G accidents I was associated with back in the 90's, thereby leaning more credibility to #1.

6th Dec 2014, 16:56
Gordy - except the separation point is exactly where the MR blade would hit and the driveshaft has been chopped neatly at an angle as well.

Bob - not speculating as to why this sad accident happened just the cause of the TR boom lying away from the rest of the crash. The witness may well have seen the aircraft break up in mid-air - that's exactly what it would look like if the MR removed the tail section. As to why??? the crash investigators will figure that out. A pitch change horn failue could have the same result as low G, low Nr, mast bumping.

Dynamic Roller
6th Dec 2014, 20:49
According to various sources (e.g. here (http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/story/two-men-die-in-north-salt-lake-helicopter-crash/94022/Fe8TfRne4E-eBZu-4Rq0yw)) this was a T&B flight post maintenance.

blakmax
6th Dec 2014, 23:02
A pitch change horn failue could have the same result as low G, low Nr, mast bumping. Or MRB failure as was the most probable cause with DQ-IHE.

Blakmax

Hughes500
7th Dec 2014, 21:08
Gordy

Only the right hand side metal is bent outwards which would happen as blade enters left side and exits right side ?

Gordy
7th Dec 2014, 22:23
I have to dis-agree. Look at the top of the tail boom---it appears the metal is bent out. I suspect had the blade have chopped of the boom then it would have entered at about a 45 degree angle.....and the top and left side would be bent in.

Compare to these pictures are from a tail boom that was cut off by a main blade---admittedly this is not an R-44 and this occurred during a flare gone bad--so not at altitude, (not me btw---but I did investigate it):

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSCN0013_zps94f30c4a.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Helo-general/DSCN0015_zps84e8b758.jpg

blakmax
8th Dec 2014, 04:16
I think you may be right Gordy. There are no signs of blade strikes on the fins and if it was mast bumping leading to the blade cutting the boom, I would expect to see some strikes on the fin.

Blakmax

8th Dec 2014, 06:57
Except that the blades can't reach the fin and if you bend down a blade to the tail boom, that point is exactly where it would hit.

A driveshaft failure could happen anywhere in the length theoretically but most probably at a joint/coupling.

The driveshaft has clearly been sliced rather than ripped and the left hand side of the boom is bent in slightly whilst the right is torn outwards.

I really can't think what else could cause that damage other than a MR blade strike.

The T&B calls up the thought of a maintenance error.

I hope the investigation team has better quality witnesses than this guy...

"I hear this engine thrust really loud and then something exploded," Megerdichian said. "That piece of the rudder came out of the helicopter, flipped sideways and another explosion happened and shot the helicopter forward. Blades went flyin'. That's when I tried to run back because there was parts everywhere comin' down from the air, from the sky. I mean there was everything in the sky."

blakmax
8th Dec 2014, 10:28
I have a number of pictures of blade strikes on an R44 fin following a probable blade failure, so clearly the blade actually can reach there. From memory there were at least four strikes on the fin and several on the boom, each progressing forward. I guess it depends on how rapidly the blade departs the plane of rotation. Gradual, fin strikes then boom contact. Rapid failure may miss the fin altogether.

John Eacott
8th Dec 2014, 10:34
I have a number of pictures of blade strikes on an R44 fin following a probable blade failure, so clearly the blade actually can reach there. From memory there were at least four strikes on the fin and several on the boom, each progressing forward. I guess it depends on how rapidly the blade departs the plane of rotation. Gradual, fin strikes then boom contact. Rapid failure may miss the fin altogether.

We're discussing an attached blade severing the tailboom: it's highly unlikely that a blade departing the rotorhead is going to chip away at the tail fin and then come back forward to chop off the boom!

As crab@ said, the MRB will not reach the tail fin but will impact the tail boom at the point shown in the photo:

http://www.heliflightofmichigan.com/images/r44_illustration.jpg

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=NP9A8ExfmxVOe6G jWpPKD8$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYssL4fktQAj9tbon8q7H1c3WCsjLu883Yg n4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoM evcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

Hughes500
8th Dec 2014, 10:56
Gordy

I know have just got to the age of needing glasses but ! The left side does not have metal projecting outwards, the right and upper sides do
So it is not lost in translation across the pond does t and b mean track and balance ?

SilsoeSid
8th Dec 2014, 11:03
Tell me blakmax, in those photos of yours, have the tr blades also been struck by the mr blades? Because surely the mr blades would have to enter the tr disc to get to hit the fin. The tr blades in this incident appear to be unmanaged. How is that?

blakmax
8th Dec 2014, 11:43
In the case I have details on, I don't think the TR blades were recovered. They are certainly not attached to the boom. My point is that the blade actually can reach the fin, and therefore the absence of strikes (and together with your observation that the rotor blades are intact) it is unlikely that this failure was blade related unless it was an extremely rapid loss of the plane of rotation. Unlikely.

blakmax
8th Dec 2014, 11:58
Should have read further back! John E. In the case I was involved with the blade spar WAS still attached until it fractured roughly mid span after contacting the boom. There were at least three strikes on the fin and two along the boom. If a blade fails, then the remaining blade with all the lift will rise upwards causing a significant bending moment on the mast, pushing the mast backward thus reducing the distance between the blade tip and the fin. The pictures you offered are for a blade in normal flight.

9th Dec 2014, 10:51
blakmax - that could only occur if either the rotor mast fractures (or bends a foot and a half backwards) or if the MRGB becomes detached from the main fuselage.

I'm not saying that neither of those things occurred here but they are far less likely than a simple blade strike to produce the results seen in these pictures.

The evidence in the picture of the tail section seems to speak quite clearly for itself.

Arnie Madsen
9th Dec 2014, 12:26
Just to stir the pot on mast movement .... watch this backward auto video .... once the skids touch down you can see the mast and fairing move aft about 5 to 6 inches .... it happens at 0:29 ... play it over several times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dJTJOlXM24&sns=em

9th Dec 2014, 14:06
I don't think it stirs the pot Arnie, this incident was about a mid-air breakup rather than the mast flexing on landing:ok:

GreenKnight121
13th Dec 2014, 04:34
Looks like they are talking about a main rotor separation before the tail separation.

Rotor repair work happened before fatal helicopter crash: NTSB (http://www.standard.net/Police/2014/12/11/NTSB-releases-preliminary-report-of-helicopter-crash-that-killed-two.html)

According to the NTSB’s preliminary report issued this week, the helicopter was registered to Native Range Capture Services Inc., of Elko, Nevada, and was operated by Native Range Inc., of Ventura, California.

The flight was a post-maintenance flight and the helicopter had departed from Skypark Airport in Bountiful minutes before the crash.

Several witnesses told investigators they “heard popping sounds, then saw the main rotor and empennage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empennage) (tail assembly) separate from the helicopter as the helicopter flew overhead,” the report said.

“Several of the witnesses then saw the helicopter tumble in flight and impact the top of a building,” investigators wrote in the report. “The main rotor blade and empennage impacted the ground a few hundred feet from the impacted building.”

The helicopter’s owner told investigators that mechanics had done maintenance to the main rotor assembly, the NTSB said. The flight was “to check the ’track and balance’ of the main rotor blades,” according to the document.

Ascend Charlie
13th Dec 2014, 06:52
By the time somebody on the ground hears a POP and looks up, the rotor blade has already cut off the tail boom, wobbled around a bit and then had a mast bump from the huge fuselage attitude change after the loss of that mass up the back, separated and fallen away.

Their sequence will be:
hear the POP
look up
see the tail section falling, along with the main blade, fuselage tumbling.

Boudreaux Bob
13th Dec 2014, 06:54
One must wonder if the PC Links were Safetied or left just snugged up.

I have done it both ways and always worried if they were not Safetied.

The idea of a PC link becoming disconnected is not something I would want to contemplate.