OP 'TIL WE DROP

[1.3VStall]

Not all a bed of roses at sunny Akkers then?

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30338659

[NutLoose]

One HTTP to many, try

BBC News - Islamic State: 'Morale poor' among RAF crews at Akrotiri, Cyprus (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30338659)

[1.3VStall]

Thanks Nutloose - I've got fingers like pigs t1ts!

[MATELO]

morale was poor and ground crews had taken to eating humanitarian rations meant for Iraqis.

Seriously, that can't be true.... can it ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Beans with pork sausages perhaps?

[Biggus]

Try reading the linked article!!



As for the official RAF/MOD response, perhaps it can be paraphrased as "... the Emperor has a splendid set of new clothes, as everyone can see...."!

[Wyler]

A good friends daughter has completed two dets to Afghanistan in the last 18 months. Just been told she is off to Africa in the New Year meaning she has had to cancel her wedding. The cream on top of the cake was also being told, allegedly, that if she gets infected with Ebola she will not be brought back to the UK.
And more cuts to come after the next election..............

[just another jocky]

And more cuts to come after the next election..............

And we think the current set of cuts has been bad. Just wait!

[Yellow Sun]

On reading the BBC article the phrase that really caught my eye was:

crews there are led by a chain of command, "so laced with budgetary fear... that no one knows what the plan is".

Is this what we have come to?

YS

[downsizer]

I'm shocked people are shocked. Look at the Dets 2,9, and 31 have done this year....there were better facilities at KAF than Aki by far.

I liked the hidden nugget about the quality of engines coming from RR/BAe. Bang on the money, the product coming from them was shocking. Wasn't unusual to go through 3-4 engines on an engine change in KAF.

[sitigeltfel]

There must be plenty money sloshing around as local councils can afford to give their top people £90k Porsche Panameras.

BBC News - Pembs chief Bryn Parry-Jones's work car was £90k Porsche (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-30246108)

[wg13_dummy]

Confirm the squadron in question was on operations? I.e military delivering effect. Have some become a bit spoiled over the past few years of having all the trimmings (Kandahar etc)? Do the Armed Forces now expect a fully furnished gym, Pizza Hut, Costa and a full stocked EFI before deploying? Not withstanding the lack of investment in equipment and resources, aren't servicemen supposed to be able to be a bit more enduring?

Wonder if the Booties, Paras or Guards wrote to the press prior to landing in San Carlos due to the lack of retail facilities?

[BEagle]

Pizza Hut and Costa aside, the closure of TPMH must be of more serious concern.

But the ever-accurate MoD website still lists TPMH as being open - even though the website was updated 6 months after it closed....

Lions led by donkeys.....:uhoh:

[Burnswannabe]

I don't think it is too much to ask for proper catering facilities to provide food when people need it for their shift pattern. No one is asking for a mall of pizza huts but a feeder would be a nice minimum. There is no money in the pot and the cancellation of a number of ISTAR assets being deployed just proves it. Fortunately the lack of money matches the lack of plan so at least we maintain some balance.

[Tourist]

wg13

Whilst you have a certain point, just remind me how long the Falklands went on for?

Or WW1, or WW2?

There are things that can be put up with for a little while, but when it has been a deacade of back to back ops then more is required.

I think I need a sit down. Can't believe I just defended crabs wanting a bit of comfort!
Must need a rest.

[salad-dodger]

GW1 - Akrotiri was quite a sh*thole. But hey ho, it was busy and there was a war on so people got on with it. We moved to Episkopi after a couple of months and lived there for the duration, commuting daily to Akrotiri.

There was always the feeling that things could have been made a lot better at Akrotiri, but there simply wasn't the will. The US and Canadians who came in to support their aircraft movements made themselves very comfortable.

The attitude of the 'Permanent Staff' was probably the most frustrating factor. I can't imagine attitudes have changed very much.

S-D

[Melchett01]

A source at the MoD said the facilities, as well as conditions of service, at Akrotiri are comparable with all RAF stations around the world.


That bad eh?

A colleague of mine is deployed elsewhere in the ME at the moment and he has said something very similar about lack of decision making or support because people are either terrified of spending money or they blame the politicians for not wanting to issue direction.

It's a sorry state of affairs all in all, especially as the grand er plan doesn't seem to be going to plan. So it will be medals all round to keep people happy will it? I recall a US officer in Baghdad in 2003 saying that's what they were doing to try and keep people 'happy' and motivated.

[wg13_dummy]

Tourist, are you suggesting that those individuals who decided to complain have been on constant operations, deployed away for 10 years? I don't think so.

Comfort is one thing, having an expectation of what they perceive they should have is another. They are not getting shot at or shelled, they are living in some fairly nice conditions and are living on a large base with even basic amenities. They are in the military and being on ops is actually a part of the deal.

[ericferret]

I suspect this in as far as the food goes is a local command failure.

1975 at Long Kesh in the middle of a long day and night shift at 4 am we arrived at the cookhouse.

Duty Cook, What would you like?

What is there?

Cook If I've got it you can have it.

6x Steak and chips?

Cook, 15 mins lads, sit down and I'll bring it to the table oh and by the way there is a crate of beer over there that someone seems to have forgotten. One each.

Strikes me that the officers don't give a sh*t about the men. Don't blame the government.

I think the AVM rather than breaking into a pallet of food should have dug out the officer in charge of the detachment and sent the tosser home.

[gr4techie]

Wg13, Welcome to the year 2014.

It's not 1914 so why do you expect people to live in conditions like it still is?

Today, servicemen and women can make a career choice to stay or PVR. There is other jobs out there where you don't live in a flea pit and eat red cross food parcels. I've seen more comfortable prisons (on tv) than Akrotiri transit accommodation.

My Line Manager used to say "if you don't like it you can PVR". Now he's moaning about the lack of qualified and experienced manpower.

[goudie]

Steak and chips!

I would volunteer for night flying, just for a supper of egg and chips.

[Mr C Hinecap]

What an awful article. I really can't believe anyone on here is getting vexed about such pish. Oh, wait. Yes I can.

Night shift have complained about the food on every single base I've served on. It doesn't matter where in the world we serve. If some AVM made a cheesy demonstration of handing out rations then he needs a slap for not sorting things to make them work. As for the hospital comment - there were hospitals at the operational locations because troops were coming back with bits removed.

[Vendee]

I liked the hidden nugget about the quality of engines coming from RR/BAe. Bang on the money, the product coming from them was shocking. Wasn't unusual to go through 3-4 engines on an engine change in KAF.In GW1 at Murharraq, our 13 aircraft went through 74 engines in five months. These were predominately oil consumption issues which modded gearbox breather carbon seals fixed.

When I first started on Tornado, the mean time between bay visits was 176 hours. Post single crystal HPT, this went up to 400-500 hours. When I found myself back on Tornado as a civvy a few years ago, some engines were exceeding 1000 hours between shop visits. Just after that, the RAF RB199 bays were closed and work transferred to Bristol. I actually declined a temp job offer at Bristol getting the RR guys up to speed.

As far as you can say here.... what sort of problems are the sqns suffering with the RB199 these days?

[Mechta]

So when did Akrotiri's very own catering squadron become a thing of the past?

[Al R]

Having crap rats is part and parcel of life sometimes, although in fairness so is complaining about it. But why did the SNCO complain to the AVM about it.. didn't he have a FS, WO or JEngo to approach to address things? And did no one use some common sense, initiative and guile and work around the problem and why was the discontent and expectation not managed correctly?

20+ years ago, an army cook presented us with roasted marmite basted spuds, beef wellington and all the trimmings. Delicious. I can't remember how far into the middle of nowhere we were, but I do remember there wasn't electricity or a roof, it was minus 6 degrees, there was 3 feet of snow and we were being mortared.. that was sustained for months as well. And that wasn't sepia 19canteen.. it was post internet, awareness and 'human rights'.

If the problem is bad leadership and poor admin, simple.. b0llock someone and then address it.. why was this even allowed to be an issue as said AVM visited? But if the problem is a genuine financial one, then sorry.. but welcome to austerity - so let's see the SNCOs leading by example when times are hard (and sorry, but ropey sarnies isn't exactly 'hard' is it?).

As a punishment, at Aki, we used to have to leave the block to dig in on the sqn and live in a trench for two weeks on compo (".. act like animals and I'll treat you like animals" WO Brian Deeley - brilliant times!). I accept this is 2014, the BBC will always look for a human interest angle and civvy street offers increasingly attractive options but come on. I don't consider myself to be too old and past it but if the hardest part of the job is enduring cheese sarnies?

[Jimlad1]

To my mind there are a few issues here. Firstly, there is the fact that SHADER has commenced fairly unexpectedly, and as such, will take time to get the investment of time, accommodation and facilities to get to the BSN or KAF standard - lets not forget KAF was hardly a pinnacle of luxury when it opened.

I think there is an issue that while we work out the medium term campaign aspirations, objectives, and what our laydown will be to support this, we'll see more funds going in.

Then we have to remember that not only do people like to moan, often about even what is seemingly a good setup, but also that its not always based on reality. I've been extremely close to SHADER recently and struggled to find much that I agreed with in the letter.

Finally, there is the danger that the BAS/BSN/KAF setup is one that many of our more junior people have become used to. I sense a growing awareness that we've brought a lot of people in since TELIC started who perhaps are used to deploying, but not deploying austerely as has been done in the past (I don't mean that as an insult). We need to recognise that HERRICK/TELIC were perhaps the exception, and that while we can expect reasonable facilities when the campaign is established and on a steady state, we equally can't always expect to have access to the Ice Hockey rink and Pizza Huts of KAF every time.

There is an expectation management issue here - yes wifi is good, and yes we all want to get better accommodation and welfare fixed for people, but in an era where we will often find ourselves operating at short notice in odd places, I think we have to be better at mentally preparing our people that no there isn't always going to be an EFI or PX to go to at the start.

I fully get people are tired, and god knows the GR4 force has worked hard, but given this campaign is a few months old, that we're still bedding things in and that a lot is changing very rapidly, I think we're perhaps expecting too much too quickly for my taste.

[wg13_dummy]

I'm not advocating living in a water filled, rat infested trench! I'm just asking if a certain amount of service robustness has been lost. Society may change but the act of war hasn't really changed much over the past 2000 years. There is hardship and objectionable activities have to be undertaken in inhospitable places. Cyprus shift work isn't exactly in that category I would suggest.

The problem is, the RAF doesn't do itself any favours with lines like "so disgusted by the 'cheese sandwiches' offered as meals to the night shift" and ""the costs and quality of the catering and retail support are a disgrace".

They are the sort of lines you would expect to hear from a bunch of civil servants not military personnel on operations.

If it gets to the stage where an AVM has to intervene then the junior leadership (Sqn Ldr and below and SNCOs) has failed.

Are these same people expecting a medal too? Cant have it both ways.

[camelspyyder]

Wg13 I'm just asking if a certain amount of service robustness has been lost.

You are kidding?

The average RAF type is more robust now than at any time in the last 60 years.

After the post war Flying Club years (that went on till the 90's), we now have a (smaller) cadre of people who are fitter than ever and, yes, hardened by over a decade of constant conflict.

There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people who can do without the old school putting down their efforts.

[wg13_dummy]

Geardown, that's great if you're writing a job spec for someone working at Aldi or the Police Service. Service personnel join knowing that they go on operations (they certainly do in the Army anyway) and they also know that going on operations can bring certain hardships. The 'expeditionary' nature of SHADER may mean that things aint going to be like living on a station in the UK. We are not on about treating people like ****e, merely hinting that lower management has failed and those that chose to go public maybe need their expectations managed somewhat. Is it because they thought 'ah, we're in Akrotiri -sunshine posting!' but the reality is they are there to deliver effect on an operation and cant nip down to nipple beach for a brandy sour?

Which sqn was it that hit the news down a local town in Italy not that long ago?

Jimlad, totally agree.

[downsizer]

I don't really see asking for a hot meal during a 12-14 hour night shift maintaining a decrepit under resourced aircraft as particularly demanding nor luxurious. Especially when due to shift timings and mess opening hours it is often the only meal the nightshift can get.

[Al R]

Geardown,

If you treat people badly they do not work for you. Give them a good standard and they will.

I don't think the connection with either could be argued with any sense of certainty. You have good men well managed, trained and focused and the capacity for rigour gets greater in the same environment than it might for those poorly lead and motivated.

I agree with Downsizer too - I'm amazed that something that simple and straightforward wasn't available on a unit of that size, with all those facilities. Even if the chain didn't provide it (and I'm surprised), why did the troops not address it amongst themselves? And does the RAF not even have hotlocks anymore?

Camelspyder

.. we now have a (smaller) cadre of people who are fitter than ever and, yes, hardened by over a decade of constant conflict.

There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people..

Agreed!

[downsizer]

Vendee

As far as you can say here.... what sort of problems are the sqns suffering with the RB199 these days?

I'm not a sootie so I don't profess to be an expert, but I did see a lot of carbon seal changes, continual surges on climatic runs, and engine after engine being rejected. Sorry I can't provide more detail, I had enough issues of my own...:\

[Royalistflyer]

Akrotiri is a regular RAF station and should have all the facilities of one. More to the point, it is in effect our aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean, where ops to small wars are to be expected, therefore it should have a hospital.
As far as cuts are concerned, yes in this country we let the armed services go to hell when we aren't being attacked at home. When we are attacked at home we panic and spend money on everything.
However in today's world, if these politicians (any party) want to use our services overseas, they MUST find the money and the conditions and aircraft must be totally up to standard.
The Air Force isn't the army. The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff who shouldn't be expected to rough it like a soldier at the front. Today, you just won't get people to do that and the quicker that is understood the better for everyone.
Akrotiri really is our third aircraft carrier - and the only one operational at the moment, it should be a first class base.

[wg13_dummy]

"The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff"

Err, same can be said for the Army and Navy these days actually.

I think some are missing the point here.

1. Mid and lower command has failed if it cant sort out the basic admin for a unit deployed on operations.

2. The guile and ingenuity of ensuring the chaps are sorted by whatever means available seems to have been lost. Maybe that flexibility has been lost due to fighting an enduring operation in established locations expecting it all to be laid on. First port of call seems to be to write to the press. I understand it was a SNCO.

3. How come Akrotiri wasn't supporting the Op fully? Thats one of their roles surely? (Aircraft carrier in the Med captures that perfectly).

4. Early days on a new op aren't going to be easy.

5. 'Roughing it' for a small amount of time is why we train recruits and turn them in to servicemen surely? Sets us apart from Joe-Shmo in civvy street and has enabled us to do the ****ty jobs politicians expect us to do with little resources and funding.

[wg13_dummy]

Geardown, that attitude may have been fine during the cold war when the majority of the RAF operated from UK or Germany on large cosy bases but in this day of limited resources, combined ops and disappearing off to the four corners at the whim of the politicians sets you up as being the dinosaur.

[Al R]

GearDown,

On a minor point, HF and SHF deployed in field and that was technical?

[Danny42C]

What happened to the "Serves you right - shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke" of my day ?

[wg13_dummy]

Geardown, do you understand that 'joint' means delivering effect as per the MoD 'plan' (whatever lunacy that may be). You make it sound like the whole of Defence is here to purely support the RAF and promote the PR and marketing campaign. You may not like it but we are generally all here to support the grunt on the ground.

[downsizer]

WG12

Roughing it is all well and good when required. I'd argue that at a UK MOB in 2014 that shouldn't be necessary. The TGRF lads on Op Taurus didn't moan as they knew they were deployed in the middle of an African sh1thole.

[gr4techie]

shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke" of my day ?

It worked in the 1980's when you had enough manpower to pick and choose who you have.

Those who left the forces years ago might be reading this thread and thinking "why are they complaining, it's just a meal". But it's one more thing that has been added to the list of bullish*t and "austerity" measures we now have to put up with. All the small things add up to breaking point.

[Toddington Ted]

"Akrotiri is a regular RAF station and should have all the facilities of one. More to the point, it is in effect our aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean, where ops to small wars are to be expected, therefore it should have a hospital."

It did have a hospital when I served there in the late 1990s but, even then, the Station wasn't given the budgetary support it deserved in my opinion. Years later, it is still as important as it was back then. I'm personally delighted that I'm no longer the PRO there as, now that I've (just) retired (for the 2nd time!) and no longer have to defend the indefensible. However, I'm sorry for those who still serve in these parsimonious days. However, as some other posters have said, t'was ever thus!:sad:

[ricardian]

I was stationed at Akrotiri 1965-67 when about 11,000 service personnel were on the base. There were two airmen's messes and a third airmen's mess (just up the road from the Pen Club) was built but never used.

[TheWizard]

And we think the current set of cuts has been bad. Just wait!

Was that a typo?? :}

[Uncle Ginsters]

It's clear from some of the posts above how fast things have changed over the last decade, leaving many quite simply out of touch with today's Airman.

To me, this whole post smacks of two issues:

1. Cumulative and Chronic Fatigue - the GR Force is one of several that have been disproportionately deployed over the last decade (since Harrier left HERRICK, really). This letter is more about the rest of the load on that "Camel's Back" than this particular straw; when a force is chronically fatigued, it's the small things, predominantly feeling looked after, that matter.

2. Whilst several have criticised the middle management, I think this shows exactly how financial constraints eat into Mission Command - even at our main base, the Auth for biscuits for a visiting MP sits at 1* level :ugh: Middle management is also working hard and EngOs, I'm sure, have little time to sort out support functions that should be a 'given'. Especially when you have to write a full business case to get even a pack of pencils these days. The issue here is the general lack of Op focus in our self-licking lollipop support trades...

This is long-term and these guys are on a MOB not a FOB...support them or lose them, simples.

[Wrathmonk]

Any of the contributors to this thread actually been deployed as part of this det who can support the allegations made?

And just for the RAF-bashers posting on this thread isn't Akrotiri a Permanent Joint Operating Base and therefore falls under the (rules and) responsibility of PJHQ and not AIR Command? Would love to know whether the AVM was from PJHQ or AOC 1 Gp......

Also, whilst things may have changed since my PJHQ bunker time I think it is part of the J5 Division (for all the 'oldies' out there J5 have responsibility for crisis and deliberate planning) so I guess whilst the desk officer responsible may be light blue the DACOS (Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff - gp capt or equiv) and/or ACOS (Assistant Chief of Staff - 1*) could well be a sailor or a soldier (or even a booty!).

[Royalistflyer]

I really wasn't aware of any RAF bashing, its the politicians who dish out the money and its the politicians who decide that we should mount operations. If they don't ensure that the facilities at all levels are there, don't be surprised if the ops don't work very well.

[Training Risky]

At face value, it may appear to some as the dripping of a SNCO about hard sandwiches and lack of retail facilities.

But the deeper (and more worrying) issues are that 1) Although this is a relatively new Op, RAF Akrotiri should be a well established MOB with the appropriate H24 facilities. 2) Some of these guys will have been on expeditionary ops since 9/11...and Op Southern Watch before that. If you want an Armed Forces, you have to invest in it.

And finally, 3) do you really want a tired, malnourished, p*ssed off engineer with one eye on the PVR button maintaining your jet during constant ops over badlands??

[wg13_dummy]

"And finally, 3) do you really want a tired, malnourished, p*ssed off engineer with one eye on the PVR button maintaining your jet during constant ops over badlands??"

Welcome to the world of Apache, SH and other platforms serving on ops (not on a MOB).

Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military....

[Wokkafans]

Coverage on this issue and GR4 starting on Newsnight now.

For those who missed it http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04ttnt7/newsnight-05122014

[Jwscud]

Cry me a river chaps. Given the deployments expected of the other two services, the dripping here is astonishing.

Max deployments allowed:

RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30

Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.

There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps...

[Uncle Ginsters]

Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military

That's exactly what's exacerbated this situation already - too much 2nd and 3rd line tech work contracted out, reduced blue-suit manning in Q'd posts leaving fewer Servicemen to deploy more often :ugh:

[Davef68]

It's what happens when the politicians want to be 'world leaders' and project their power round the globe, but aren't prepared to financially provide the back up required. The reductions in airframes and manpower have not been matched by a reduction in the politicians desire to be seen as 'players' on the world stage.

[Melchett01]

Jwscud,

Those figures are guidelines rather than hard rules, and operational commitments may well mean those guidelines are routinely breached.

Added in to that, I suspect the RAF figures are now out if date given that the NFU tour length has been standardised at 6 months - with the usual amounts if separated service each year on top of that figure for un established commitments, Ex, trg etc. So if you were to compare the Services over the exact same length of time, I suspect there wouldn't be much in it between any of them.

[Toddington Ted]

"Cry me a river chaps. Given the deployments expected of the other two services, the dripping here is astonishing.

Max deployments allowed:

RAF - 280 days/24 months
Navy/Royal - 660/36
Army - 415/30

Let us say nothing about the relative hardships and dangers faced, simply look at those numbers and see how easy they have it.

There's nothing soft about the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps... "

However, RAF Akrotiri is a MOB not "just" a deployment. Something You appear to have overlooked, so we would expect a certain standard, after all, the Station has been there for many years.
However, it's interesting that the current RM max deployment seems to be the same as my father's deployment with the West indies Sqn (not just one ship!) in 1937 - a tour interrupted in September 1939.

[Whenurhappy]

There seems to be two types of posters here - those who are shocked by what has happened and those who are not surprised. The former are no longer serving; the latter are. Putting aside the issues surrounding cheese sandwiches, I wonder how long it will be that the accumulated risk of various change programmes (PAYD, leaning JPA, guarding etc etc) will lead to mission failure over ISIS territory? This aspect was reviewed at considerable length in the Capability health Check of 2008 in response to Haddon-Cave....what has happened since to allow this situation to develop?

[wg13_dummy]

Whenurhappy, two types of posters. Those who are shocked (military) and those who aren't surprised (RAF). Yep, you are quite right. You seem to be suggesting that a lack of facilities at Akkers will lose us the 'war'?

Do you wonder why most laugh at the RAF?

[1.3VStall]

wg13 dummy - the key word is the last.

[Top Bunk Tester]

I was stationed in AKI from 1981-83 on TASF. It was an excellent posting and the camp was fully manned and functioning well. As can be seen from the date the only war that was going on was on the other side of the world. Over the years since I've done many stops in AKI and always on base, never did get HOTAC. Always in 100 or 101. My last duty visit was in 97 and all still seemed OK.

Last time I was at AKI was in 2010, was returning from a CONDO assignment in Bastion. As some friends were on the trooping rotation crews I stopped off in AKI for the weekend for a social. I have to say I was shocked at the decline in the place, under manned, under funded and delapidation plain to see at every turn. Add to this PAYD and it is just not the place it was, thank God the kebab at Sylvanas was still up to scratch and Greg & Georgina are still going strong. Although more expensive, what isn't, the blame for this can be put squarely at the door of the Euro. The Aki Arms was also still pretty good.

All in all I left AKI with a large twinge of sadness ...... Or maybe I'm just getting old and suffering from a large dose of WIWO with lamp swinging :bored:

[Whenurhappy]

WG

I now stand at a distance away from the MOD but work for HMG. If true (and other posters seem to back this up) this treatment is simply not acceptable in 2014 on a PJOB or MOB. There seems to have been a systemic failure - from Contracts Branch drafting the MAC contract to the line manager who should have dealt with gripes - but, I suspect, has b&gger-all leverage to effect change. On this point, just see how (little) authority a Stn Cdr has these days; personnel matters are effectively contracted out to CPAC in Glasgow; works matters are now fully within DIO; contractors do the engineering and contractors do much of the life support side of house, including catering. Last meal I had in a PAYD UK mess, about 4 months ago, wasn't fit for pigs, frankly.

If you think that all of the above is acceptable, well....so be it.

[MSOCS]

Jwscud,

Your point is? The Squadron that just returned from AKI have been deployed on Operations for 240 days this year across three Op theatres. You can quote harmony expectations all you like but the reality is much different because there's a job to do and, right now, the light blue are being asked to do it.

Don't believe everything you read; I include this article in that.

It never surprises me to see the 'in my day' brigade come forth to proffer such wise words (read thinly-veiled contempt) at today's military personnel. quite frankly, this brigade couldn't be more out of touch with reality and seem ludicrously ignorant of what it means to serve in a highly-leaned Armed Forces during a time when we've rarely been asked to do more. The short, sharp shock of conflict can often be recovered from if respite is available. Sadly there has been little respite for many for over 12+ years and the cumulative, chronic fatigue of constant deployments can justifiably wear thin and cause grievance.

That said, haters will always hate.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

the Auth for biscuits for a visiting MP sits at 1* level

Are you serious?
I was expecting the collapse of Western Civilisation around 2025. I shall have to advance my preparations.

MSOCS - a large number of us do appreciate your situation. That's why we PVR'd sometime ago. My sympathies.

[smujsmith]

Reading the comments of this thread I am having a bit if a chuckle. Akrotiri, part of the RAF ? Late 80s to early 90s an East bound C130, on a Saturday or Sunday, would be obliged to night stop Cairo, as AKR would not offer staging facilities. I never had a problem with it, as a night at the Pyramids was far more interesting than yet another kebab. GW1 woke them up, a bit, but spending six weeks living in a windowless room, that was our store room, when I lived in that block on a tour in 1973, was hard going. Nonetheless, we were on operations and "any port in a storm" was the way it was. No one moaned, we got on with it. I know that this thread is based on media reports, but it seems that some currently serving are happy to fuel the fire of outrage. Modern servicemen have a choice, as they did in my time. Take it, or leave it. At 61 years old, I would give my right arm to support operations from Akrotiri again.

Smudge:ok:

[Whenurhappy]

Fox3...the poster was absolutely correct. Biscuits are verboten these days, at least at the public expense!

I work in another part of government and the fiscal control sare absurd beyond belief. I've given up trying to explain that the control transaction costs exceed the actual costs. I recently had 25 p recovered from my salary because of an arithmetical error in a mobile phone bill.

[Mechta]

Get Serco to service your jets if the serving ground support can't play at being in the military....

So from were do you think Serco recruit the majority of their highly skilled but poorly paid workforce, and where are they going to eat?

If it was crap when you were in, why would you go back to the same place for crap money and the same crap living conditions when you are out?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

OK, thanks. I shall adjust my plans accordingly. Transactional costs are, of course, on someone else's budget. In simpler terms, no-one is in charge.

[wg13_dummy]

Aimed at the RAF chappies. Why did you join and what were your expectations?

[gr4techie]

Answer...

1) Like everyone else, I needed a job.
2) Loyalty to be two way. I expected to be well looked after and not shafted. For example, if the contract I signed said I was on AFPS75 I expected to receive AFPS75.

[salad-dodger]

Having put Fox3wheresMyBananas last post through my message decoder I'm confused as it just gave me some dribble knocking everything British. I retried it with some of his other posts and I got the same thing. That can't be right can it, all of his posts just knocking everything British?

Maybe we should all join him in the land of milk and honey!

S-D

[wg13_dummy]

1) Being in the Armed Forces isn't just a 'job'
2) Totally agree.

3) (My PoV). At what point did you become disillusioned with the mob? Just before or just after the perks were removed or at the point where you realised you had to work for a living?

Define 'well looked after'. If thats what you wanted, maybe you should have joined the Mafia or a union?

PS Served 30 years and still serving. Still doing Ops cos thats why I joined....rough or smooth. At the point I want a softer, easier life, I'll get out and fly for the airlines.

[salad-dodger]

3) (My PoV). At what point did you become disillusioned with the mob? Just before or just after the perks were removed or at the point where you realised you had to work for a living?
You waste your time arguing with this mentality at your peril. The "it's no worse than it was in my day" mentality that is right up there with the "we've always done it this way" approach to service life.

S-D (not serving any more and not putting up with the wankers who hold such views)

[Willard Whyte]

The grass is greener on the outside. Can't figure why everybody isn't hitting the PVR button.

[Training Risky]

Well I have less than a year to go now until I am promoted to Mr. Can't wait - very excited. 13 years of COIN have been great, but I have no wish to hang around for the post-HERRICK, post-general election, SDSR-bloodbath that we all know is coming.

And if I get a letter ordering me back for Op Badly Planned War III - I shall join the BNP, smoke drugs and fail the RAFFT while sticking two fingers up to the MOD. Loyalty is a 2-way street.

[Roadster280]

Akrotiri is a regular RAF station and should have all the facilities of one. More to the point, it is in effect our aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean, where ops to small wars are to be expected, therefore it should have a hospital.

Absolutely agreed.

The Air Force isn't the army.

Absolutely agreed.

The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff who shouldn't be expected to rough it like a soldier at the front.

What have you been smoking to make such a ridiculous statement? The RAF has some expensive kit and some well trained people. The Army has a lot more expensive kit, and a lot more well trained people. I could say that simply because it is 3x the size. However, that wouldn't be the whole story. Several trades in the Army take years to reach Class 1 standard, just like the RAF. Yet those people are required to live in tents and eat compo just like the basic infantryman. And they don't moan about it. Why ON EARTH should one service think there is any difference in expectations from the other two? I don't believe that is really the case, other than in your world.

Akrotiri really is our third aircraft carrier - and the only one operational at the moment, it should be a first class base.

Absolutely agreed.

[wg13_dummy]

And if I get a letter ordering me back for Op Badly Planned War III - I shall join the BNP, smoke drugs and fail the RAFFT while sticking two fingers up to the MOD. Loyalty is a 2-way street.

Careful, they'll promote you to Sqn Ldr......

[sitigeltfel]

I find the the most bizarre thing about this whole thread is that there are actually so many of you defending the fact that some f'kn muppet has chosen to write anonymously to the British press on the fact that he has to eat sandwiches on his night shift.

Take two shifts, one permanent days, the other permanent nights. The night crew see the day crew getting a cooked three course meal, while they are fed sandwiches, wouldn't you be a bit pissed off?

OK, running to the press is bit OTT but servicemen have been bitching for centuries and in the era of social media and instant communication niggles like this are certain to get an airing. The old saying that the military marches on its stomach always holds, ignore it and morale plummets. I have not yet looked at ARRSE to see their comments, but I can just imagine!

[BEagle]

wg13_dummy, since you've already opined:
Just think that on the whole, crabs are a bunch of self serving cnuts.
You obviously have your own rather fixed opinion. Hence any debate would be somewhat pointless.

Newsnight was interesting last night, but the interviewees lacked any real commitment to improve or investigate the alleged situation........

Anyway, from the top of ba recruiting himself, they are about to start an expansion programme requiring DE pilots. Those with TRs for Airbus will be eagerly snapped up, so quite how 'manning' will cope with maintaining force strengths in some fleets will be interesting to observe. Whether or not it was in jest, one well-placed source advised me that they were 'bracing themselves for the rush'.....:uhoh:

ba taking DE pilots will mean that other airlines will then be looking to replace those who defect to ba. So it won't be long before the RAF will see a similar mass exodus to that of the 1990s..... When lifestyle as well as Ts and Cs was somewhat better than is reportedly the case these days.

[PapaDolmio]

I've done tours on Chinook and GR4 and have deployed numerous times with both on exercise and ops so have seen both sides of the coin.

I think the issue here is :

1. A lack of Operational focus at Akrotiri.
2. A lack of leadership at Squadron and MOB (at all levels) to sort something out. Let's face it, one of the basics is to ensure people are fed adequately.

That said, I always found that expectations of 'home comforts' was higher on the FJ fleet. Personally, if the accommodation wasn't a tent and I didn't have to cook my own food I considered myself well off.

[The Old Fat One]

Just come across this thread...kinda exactly in synch with the other one running re budget cuts and the perfect storm.

mods, perhaps merge them?

Meanwhile...everybody who is serving is going to get shafted the big one and some ppruners hereon are slagging each others outfits...go figure????

[BEagle]

In the relative comfort of KKIA during GW1, the RAF's mobile catering folks did a superb job of feeding the five thousand.

Whereas the pongos had far more austere catering arrangements, even though they were co-located. So mediocre were they that the pongo officers actually banned their troops from using the RAF's facilities.

Has the creeping cancer of contractorisation and the introduction of PAY(S) denuded the RAF of its mobile catering capabilities nowadays?

[Party Animal]

Is there anyone reading this thread that thinks it is acceptable for any individual of any service to be expected to work 12+ hour shifts on an enduring basis without access to hot food?

[vascodegama]

It seems that what happened on this Op ( and Libya if memory serves) was an instant declaration of field conditions. This has the advantage ( from the bean counters' point of view) of meaning no/reduced LOA . The counter is that there must be provision of certain facilities including enhanced / 24 hour FREE catering. It seems that this side is not happening! Regardless of the view of them "4 Yorkshire Men" here , this is unlikely to have a positive effect on morale or indeed long-term retention.

[Nomorefreetime]

A bit of moaning on how bad it is in AKT. Please tell us how bad it is on Red Flag where most of you are regular visitors

[Royalistflyer]

Please, speaking as an old fogey myself just because we put up with it back in our day, it doesn't mean that its alright now. People have moved on a loooong way.
We must start thinking about the fact that IF we are to carry out the politician's wishes and involve ourselves in silly wars in the middle east, we MUST have a first class, fully operational base at Akrotiri with all the bells and knobs.
We need to realise that while its perfectly lovely flying around in the expensive machines that the taxpayer funds, unless we have the technicians to maintain them, they won't fly.
These days, like it or not, technicians are NOT squaddies, they want proper working conditions - good fully functioning workplaces, proper clothing, really good places to eat when on duty and seriously comfortable places to live in whether married or single. If you don't understand that this is the way people think today, then get out of the way - because they do.
If the politicians don't want to fund this, then they need to stop running after the Americans every time they click their fingers.
Personally I think we in these islands need a top class Air Force and a top class Navy, because these are the services that will keep us safe and able to operate where we please. Not to denigrate the Army, I would want to see it as a special forces organisation, seriously professional (as indeed the special forces are)
Our concern here as current and former Air Force people is with the Air Force, and the whole thing from cheese sandwiches to around 16% of Tornadoes actually combat-ready is simply not acceptable - its time the Air Force top brass grew something that would make them capable of telling the PM and ministers that they must pay for top class or forget strutting the world stage.

[Wrathmonk]

So......still no-one who has actually been on this det has pitched up to substantiate the "complaints" in this "letter".

A bit like this site, people who write things may not be who they seem. Perhaps this is stage 1 of the pre-SDSR knife-in-the-back by the Army and/or Navy PR (or RP;)) department! And, yes, the tinfoil hat fits fine thank you!:)

Besides, I'd be pi55ed off if I was on II(AC) Sqn right now ....

The unit has now returned to Scotland for Christmas and the MoD said its members had been given an extra week's leave, in recognition of their recent efforts.

According to the RAF website (:E), and the local press, II(AC) Sqn are still based at RAF Marham. In Norfolk. England.

It's all the truckies fault. Clearly the hotels are better in Scotland than Norfolk!

Edited to add...

to around 16% of Tornadoes actually combat-ready

Do you understand the difference between FE@R requirements (i.e that which is fully funded) and total fleet size?

[Al R]

Wrathers,

Particularly in respect to your earlier contribution, whatever the motivation and whatever message was trying to be conveyed, the whole thing may have been planted by the AVM or one of his staff of course!

[downsizer]

So......still no-one who has actually been on this det has pitched up to substantiate the "complaints" in this "letter".

How do you know?:ok:

[Toadstool]

Wrath

perhaps those on the det, apart from the anonymous source, are aware of Opsec.

[Royalistflyer]

And now that we know that the RN is to have its permanent new base in Bahrain, the more important that the RAF have a first class fully operational base in Akrotiri.
Presumably the politicians have made a decision about our ongoing involvement in the middle east. So now they must fund it properly.
I have to say having two genuine operational bases is far better than occasional forays into ad hoc fighting. Bases tend to give troublemakers time for second thoughts.

[sharpend]

Slightly off the original topic, but typical of the run-down of HM Armed forces, a very senior officer has recently stated that the RAF will shortly be reduced to 10 bases! When asked if that was 10 airfields he replied 'No, 10 bases which includes non airfields'. So will that just be Brize & Lossie??

[Royalistflyer]

Brize has to be one - otherwise where would the poor VIPs land?

[Martin the Martian]

Whatever the perception of the situation, all I can say is that surely as an MOB Akrotiri should have the required facilities of one. Crews involved with ops from Marham during Bellamy no doubt enjoyed all those facilities?

But it highlights how organisational support for front line staff/crew is withering everywhere. Fifteen years ago at a big district general hospital near where I live there was a staff canteen open Mondays to Fridays 9-5. The public restaurant was open to staff, and provided hot meals from about 6am to 2am, with the proviso that after about 11pm you phoned and let them know you were coming.

Since then the staff canteen has closed permanently, and as patient catering went from food cooked in the kitchens to frozen meals prepared externally and cooked on the wards in portable ovens so the catering facilities diminished, bit by bit. Freshly prepared food at night went, replaced by a vending service and a microwave. Then that stopped and the doors closed at 11pm, then 9pm, and then at 7pm. Now the restaurant closes at 5pm, with no hot food available to patients, visitors or staff after that time, and I believe it is planned that it will stay closed at weekends. The reasonably priced coffee shop at the hospital entrance has been replaced by a Costa franchise, and the shop is now run by WH Smiths with motorway services prices for sandwiches, while taking leftover food from the patients' food trolley has now become a sackable offence. I understand some of the local takeaways are doing very well as a result.

Meanwhile, the NHS Trust responsible still expects maximum loyalty and a 'can-do' attitude from its staff and doesn't understand why staff morale and patient satisfaction are going downhill.

[Willard Whyte]

Brize, Waddo, High Wycombe, Northolt, Cranwell, Benson/Odiham*, Lossie, Halton, Conningsby & Valley?

And that's without Akrotiri and Mount Pleasant (does the latter count?)

One assumes - dangerous! - that the various bombing ranges are safe? Or are all wars going to be virtual as in Star Trek's 'A Taste of Armageddon'? In which case they can all go. Although given the cost of govt. computer systems it'd be more expensive than the real thing.

*can't see them both surviving.

[Martin the Martian]

Pretty much agree, Willard, though I would say Cosford rather than Halton.

[Wrathmonk]

downsizer, Al R, Toadstool

You are, of course, quite correct! Could the OP be the AVM...?! :ok:

sharpend/Willard Whyte/Martin The Martian

Isn't the new all singing all dancing Harrier/Jaguar/Tornado GR replacement (eventually) going into Marham? Or at least whilst its not embarked....:E

[downsizer]

Cosford is going to the Army martin...

[Selatar]

AKI transit was by far the worst accom experience of my career. It made KAF RSOI and living in a tent in Oman seem luxurious. That was almost 10 years ago mind so things may have improved!

AKI has withered to minimum manning and infra over the last 20 years as many here have eluded. From comms to catering the place is a fine example of decline through lack of investment. There was even a push to close the place about 5 years back to save money in one of the torturous planning rounds. It also seems the lessons on operating from Cyprus for Libya ops have not been acted upon. Much the same issues as now but no letters to newspapers.....

[goudie]

Are the Red Arrows still using Akrotiri for Winter Training? If so how do they fare with regards to the apparent run-down of the Base facilities?

[VinRouge]

Reds live in the mess during practice season. In between hoofing round and playing golf! Certainly not many night shifts I am aware of! (Although every time I have seen them there they generally are working their nads off)

[Skilly]

As a pongo I totally sympathise with the problems of todays RAF, lack of manpower, many deployments and last minute taskings etc. In my unit we have the same problems and people are voting now with their feet which creates more shortages.

An American Officer recently said the UK wants to be a world player but doesn't want to pay for it.

At a time when the MoD is now being run by accountants with spreadsheets and it is more important to get your weekly toilet roll return in that it is to plan for training; things will only get worse.

So why don't you sign off? I hear many of you say. I have and I suppose that makes me selfish for creating more manpower shortages!

[MAINJAFAD]

Don't they teach anything at Sealford Ploy or War College anymore?

Basic rules of War fighting.

1. Selection and Maintenance of the Aim
2. Maintenance of Morale
3. Offensive Action
4. Security
5. Surprise
6. Concentration of Force
7. Economy of Effort
8. Flexibility
9. Cooperation
10. Sustainability

[Pontius Navigator]

Mainjafad, I remember my C-exam many years ago:

Administration is so important that it is one of the 10 principles of war. What are the reasons that Administration is so important? (AP 1300)

I remember the principals being modified and morale would not appear to be the only thing neglected.

[camelspyyder]

And now that we know that the RN is to have its permanent new base in Bahrain, the more important that the RAF have a first class fully operational base in Akrotiri

The RAF already has an equivalent to this RN Bahrain facility, a few hundred miles to the SE.

[Daf Hucker]

I should be amazed at the number of people who seem to think that a race to the bottom is an acceptable way of working. However, given the general intolerance of posts that don't indicate that the poster has had it rougher than anybody else, I'm not.

There are circumstances where individuals have to put up with austere conditions due to the tactical situation, and generally I've found people recognise that and don't complain. Being placed in such conditions due to financial constraints, which has become the norm, is not acceptable and people therefore complain. This has been going on for years and the bucket of good will is leaking at an alarming rate!

[Biggus]

Whether people like it or not, serving conditions, and serving members expectations, have moved on over the years.

A couple of examples taken from the RN (which I admit I'm not an expert on). The latest generations of submarines, both SSBN and SSN, apparently have sufficient bunks for all crew members, thus ending the old practice of "hot bunking". While the Type 45 destroyer supposedly has the most luxurious accommodation of any RN vessel, including iPod chargers and internet connections.


By comparison, the expectation of a hot meal during a night shift at a long established base doesn't seem to be asking a lot to me!


I expect contractorization of facilities on base may also be part of the issue. I seem to remember years ago that the firemen at Akrotiri were contracted civilians, and therefore it was almost impossible to get fire cover (i.e. operate) outside the normal published opening hours - but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me...

[Jwscud]

In the "worst transit" stakes, ASI is hard to beat.

I am also aware that the deployment limits I posted are only guidelines, and that many do more than that. However that is the case across all three services, so the fact remains that the RAF have a fairly cushy number.

It isn't really doing the RAF's image much good no matter what. Just take one look at ARRSE, or ask the rock apes...

[jayteeto]

After many SH tours, I have experienced the luxury and hell that the RAF can provide, all over the world. I cringe at the stupidity of those who delight in saying that "we always have it tougher than you". So what, who is the stupid one there then??? It's always preferable to check in, rather than dig in. As long as you CAN dig in when absolutely necessary.
I will compare this situation to a RN ship. Poor accommodation, ok then, long deployments, ok as well....... Poor food, mutiny.
It doesn't matter if you are based in a 5star beach resort staffed by naked playboy bunnies, you have to get the basics right, food. The beancounters have taken one step too far.
FJ crews have always been soft pussies, but for once I agree with the whinges

[Uncle Ginsters]

The RAF already has an equivalent to this RN Bahrain facility, a few hundred miles to the SE.

Well that's hardly the textbook Base either, is it?!? For the amount of time that we've been there, the UK has totally failed to plan or invest in it; choosing instead to rely heavily on the other nations' facilities (much to their dismay!). The UK forces there are nicknamed "The Borrowers" by our coalition 'partners', and for good reason :oh:

[Biggus]

Trying to obtain/maintain a good reputation among people who will never hold you in high regard is a pointless exercise! :ugh:


Trying to obtain/maintain decent working conditions for your colleagues/subordinates on the other hand is surely the responsibility of everyone in the command chain ..

[Selatar]

I seem to recall the UK gmvnt, FCO led line was no permenant dets in the Middle East hence the long standing portacabin/hotel accom plan. Im sure the RN will be delighted with the new build and that they no longer have to get changed every morning in the storeroom! Light blue presence equally becoming hardened buildings and has been for a few years. Local sensitives negating the media copy mind...

I think with AKI one of the issues is justifying spend on contingency activity vice minimum spend to a set and tangible requirement. Building SLAM that would be empty and there 'just in case' of an op or extra costs and clauses on a contract to surge capability is sadly rather hard to justify when money is so tight.

[Rosevidney1]

War is easy to define and requires only the WILL and the CAPACITY. I very much doubt we have the former but it is abundantly clear that we lack the latter condition.

[Hangarshuffle]

Being in the UK Armed Forces in 2014 is to have been privileged with continually losing the wars you have supported or fought in. Certainly we aren't seeming to win anything, and I think this affects the mindset.
And nobody, but nobody in civvy street gives a tuppenny fig about it.
Continuous downsizing and cost cutting/privatization of the military like this hits the lowest ranks first every time. Not being able to get a decent hot meal laid on, decent accomm available (from within lets face it whilst in a western type small country miles from a war zone) is an utter howler. RAF Senior Officers beware, be very aware-sort it out or do the decent and resign and get out of the way.
* The fact the RAF cant manage or admin their groundcrews properly, yet can still find money to use the base for training a flying circus, beggars belief.
**RN Carriers carried out a rolling op for 3 long years from Adriatic areas lurcher and dogger right through the Bosnian/Serb/Croat fallout 92 to 95. Wasn't easy but we had 3 relatively modern ships, hot food, basic but clean messing, runs ashore (drinking sessions) every 6 weeks or so and so on. Most people could just about handle it, but it wasn't easy as a JR.
Something has changed within military people if they are finally speaking out at how **** it is? The worm turning? Hope so.
Damn glad I'm no longer doing this line of work anymore anyway, and as I've said before on here, if you don't like it/hate it - get outside, its far easier and you are generally treat and paid far better (a story in itself).

[RAFEngO74to09]

As you can imagine, AARSE is all over this running a thread which is generating pages at 4 x the rate on PPRuNe: RAF Morale Failure at Akrotiri | Army Rumour Service (http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/raf-morale-failure-at-akrotiri.223094/)

Quite a few chuckles to be had scanning through the comments:

For example, from "Draft Dodger": "I don't even find this funny. Someone needs to get over there and shove a morale rocket up their a...s."

This from "AT55": "Why did the Army/Royal Marines miss this when Iraq and Afghan were under way? They could have sent squaddies for a few weeks in Akrotiri to toughen them up to the deprivations they would get in theatre. Typical of the heads to miss this or maybe they reckoned that your average soldier of marine would just find it too tough!!! "

Just like PPruNe, thread drift off-topic from "Gunner 82": "During Gulf War 1 fought you may remember for freedom and democracy I was on Kermit's staff and we had complaints from the RAF that the Gulf Hotel in Bahrain was not up to the standard they expected as they were working very hard, I felt so sad for them having inferior room service and as for the poolside service it nearly brought me to tears." I left out the bit about what he would rather his daughter had done instead of joining the RAF as an officer.

Of course there are many other helpful suggestions regarding det self-help solutions, recommendations about how the chain of command should have handled the situation, and informed comment on how this makes the RAF look. Grab a coffee and enjoy !

[the_easy_life]

I got so sick of reading some of the responses that I skipped all of page 5 and most of page 6. Being told by those from 20 years ago that we 'don't do enough ops' or that we 'aren't hardened to an operational environment' leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth.

The fact is when I joined up I could have expected ops from time to time, in fact as most young thrusting aircrew I wanted it. The fact is for my entire career all I have known is NI, Iraq, Afghan, the falkland and Africa. In amongst this my flying pay was reduced by a year, my pension reduced by 3,500 a year and my service extended to 22 years for my pension-none of which I signed up for.

People might say 'it's the military, this is what you signed up for'... Well no actually it wasn't. My terms and conditions that I signed up to have been altered beyond all recognition, I wasn't told that my entire career would be ops in the Middle East, and I wasn't told that even the smallest chance to boost morale such as an Adventure Training trip would be denied due to cost.

Some will say 'leave then'. This is the saddening point, I probably will leave, along with a lot of my comrades, pilots who have a lot of experience, who mostly enjoy the job and want to stay in because they believe in something that I can't quite put my finger on. But for now they are marginalised, told that 14 years of ops isn't enough (and for those above who sat 'you haven't done constant ops for that long' try speaking to a few of the herc guys or rotary guys in particular who've know nothing else) and that the general state of affairs will not improve, in fact it will deteriorate.

Good luck with recruiting, and good luck with retention. As always Per Ardua Ad Astra...unfortunately a lot more Ardua than expected.

[wg13_dummy]

Admit it chaps, the modern RAF isn't really a part of the MoD. Merely a self licking lollipop that attempts to portray itself as the most important justification as to why it still requires a huge budget to ensure Britain remains free and the other two services should be subsumed to create an uber-Air Force. Cos after all, its down to the RAF why we don't all speak German..... :ugh:

RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.

Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.

The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.

Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....


Bunch of civvies :rolleyes:

[gr4techie]

Admit it chaps, the modern RAF isn't really a part of the MoD. Merely a self licking lollipop that attempts to portray itself as the most important justification as to why it still requires a huge budget to ensure Britain remains free and the other two services should be subsumed to create an uber-Air Force. Cos after all, its down to the RAF why we don't all speak German.....

RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.

Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.

The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.

Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....


Bunch of civvies

Yes and so what? Whats your problem with that, jealous? :)

[wg13_dummy]

No, just embarrassed for you....

[gr4techie]

I don't think anyone else is embarrassed.

Well, except the guy who ran the catering contract at Aki.

[Out Of Trim]

Many of the posts; including those of the Dummy, appear to be concentrating on the perceived operational working conditions and the Cheese-Sarnie Gate lack of adequate catering facilities.

They ignore the main thrust of the message that the GR4 Fleet is knackered. A mere 16 out of 102 aircraft are fitted with complete suite of operational equipment; the so called Diamond Fleet!

I'm Angry and frankly embarrassed that Senior Officers and our Government have allowed our Front Line Equipment to get in such a state due lack of funding, Man power, spares etc etc.

I'm not surprised the engineers are struggling to keep them serviceable and then treated badly while trying to do so.

:ugh:

Perhaps we need a new buy of F-15E?

[Just This Once...]

With the Sunday Times article talking of a direct plea to the UK to return an FJ Sqn to AFG perhaps we could purchase a US Sqn already at Bagram.

It's all a bit of a mess. Given the state of the TGRF I presume that this burden, if realised, would fall on Typhoon. Nice cycle of Q, support to NATO, FI then AFG then Q....

[downsizer]

Direct plea from whom, afghanis or Americans?

[camelspyyder]

... I didn't mean Al Udeid

[BEagle]

Just This Once wrote: Nice cycle of Q, support to NATO, FI then AFG then Q....

Facing a similar cycle for the foreseeable, it doesn't surprise me that those with A330 / A350XWB Type Ratings on their licences will be studying the ba websites pretty closely over the next few months......:\

[Phil_R]

A mere 16 out of 102 aircraft are fitted with complete suite of operational equipment; the so called Diamond Fleet!

On one hand, well, quite. On the other hand, I was once told on this very forum that in order to deploy one aircraft, a force such as the RAF needed to have five, to account for maintenance, training, R&R for the crews, etc. Now, I'd be the first to admit I've no idea how this applies to the 16-of-102 scenario described here, but it occurs to me that under the most liberal interpretation, the ready-to-go count would should only be about 20.

No?

P

[Lyneham Lad]

From the Sunday Times article (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Defence/article1492843.ece):-

BRITAIN is considering sending warplanes back to Afghanistan, six weeks after it officially ended its war in the country, after two direct pleas from the country’s president to David Cameron. A British general told The Sunday Times that he expected more troops and fast jets to be sent next year in what would be seen as an admission that Britain had withdrawn too quickly.

A senior RAF officer also revealed that plans and costings have been drawn up to send back the squadron of Tornados that recently returned from Afghanistan or a squadron of Typhoons to help Afghan troops.

That sort of deployment would require support from about 70 troops. Unmanned Reaper drones are another option to provide air support for Afghan troops, amid reports that the security situation is deteriorating so fast that it is making the levels of casualties unsustainable.

The Afghans have lost more than 4,500 men in the past year — more than Nato forces lost in the whole 13 years of the war. This year is on course to be the deadliest of the conflict so far.

“We always knew that air support was a problem,” said the general, who described the Afghan army as still “three years away from having their own air force”.

“What’s happened in Iraq combined with the spike in attacks in Afghanistan — and a wish to help the new government — has made everyone rethink.”

Abdullah Abdullah, the No 2 in the Afghan government, told The Sunday Times during a visit to London last week that international forces were leaving too early, particularly as a lot of time was lost this year because of hostility between Hamid Karzai, the former president, and western leaders.

“It is too abrupt,” Abdullah said. “Two years ago we had 150,000 international troops and lots of jets and helicopters. Within two months there will be just 12,000. We need air support for the medical evacuation of casualties, intelligence and fast jets.”

Downing Street last night denied that any decision had been made to send equipment and men to Afghanistan, saying the prime minister’s preference is that allies such as the United States, Germany and Turkey should help out instead.

Deep joy - a return to Camp Bastion. That will really raise morale... :eek:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Ginster
... I didn't mean Al Udeid

Neither did I :ok:

...but if the cap fits

[Wrathmonk]

Deep joy - a return to Camp Bastion. That will really raise morale...

A timely reminder for this (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/tv-radio/article4286291.ece)....

[Thelma Viaduct]

How come the military leaders never speak out? Whether it's poor equipment, illegal BS wars, lack of goal, poor funding etc

I bet they're worried about the pensions and their next jobs.

W@nker$ :ok:

[Bill4a]

As a very old ex resident of Akrotiri, after the Turkish invasion and most squadrons had gone home, Akrotiri was a great posting! Nobody seemed to know how long we were staying, messing was excellent, and It was one of the better postings even then. I'm horrified at the descriptions of the present day Akrotiri I've read here, it sounds very run down! Slipping standards are one thing but this sounds like a waterfall!


When PAYD was first mooted I was all for it as our then shift patterns meant we were paying for meals we weren't having. It seemed a good idea then, but I'm sure if wed known what it would have led to I'm sure we wouldn't have been that eager!


The first PAYD civilian run Airmens Mess that I met was at Northolt and it wasn't all that clever after being used to having a fully staffed catering squadron, I do remember the small portions and slow service! I can well believe that there was no hot food for shift workers at a privatised Akrotiri, they didn't have any either when we were working a night shift at Northolt. Its all contracts and profit margins instead of the service we were used to.


That's it Geriatric grump over. :}

[Mr C Hinecap]

Admit it chaps, the modern RAF isn't really a part of the MoD. Merely a self licking lollipop that attempts to portray itself as the most important justification as to why it still requires a huge budget to ensure Britain remains free and the other two services should be subsumed to create an uber-Air Force

For someone who claims to have been around Air Power for so long, you have a wonderfully biased and blinkered view of the whole thing. The RAF has been defending it's position as something other than a sub-set of the RN / Army for aeons. It defends that position against those ignorant of Air Power and it's role(s). The RAF has long done itself no favours in this regard, yet it remains where it should be.
I worked very much Tri-Service for most of my career. Whilst the Army has some excellent people, it suffers from self-justification, not invented here syndrome and too many thrusting Colonels (or Cap Badge Mentality) for it's own good. Too many people also thinking that tough conditions breed better results. They don't. They just wear people out far quicker and degrade their performance. Any fool can be uncomfortable.

[goudie]

Cheese Sandwiches! It'll be powdered eggs next, do you know what I mean?

3GABT_l6VF0

[kintyred]

Wg13_dummy, at least your colleagues will never have to suffer eating cheese sarnies with all those chips you're carrying around on your shoulders:)

[goffered again]

It used to be Fly Navy - Walk Army - Eat Crab, the first has pretty much gone, the second now go by APC and the third reduced to Cheeese sarnies, whatever next!

[ericferret]

The sarnies saga takes me back to an exercise in Germany in the mid seventies.
After over a week of appalling weather and living on compo the squadron morale wasn't great.
The cook was getting sick and tired of the whining and headed of to complain to the CO or so we thought.

Nothing was said but the following day the CO appears with the cook in tow. All the pax seats were removed from an aircraft and the CO and cook launched off.
On their return we off loaded a stack of hay box's (alloy food containers) full of steaks, pork chops and other goodies.

For one day only but nevertheless a major boost to morale. Maybe we just had a better class of officer in those days and also a fine cook.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

has made everyone rethink.

.. has made everyone think ..fixed that :ok:

[melmothtw]

My terms and conditions that I signed up to have been altered beyond all recognition, I wasn't told that my entire career would be ops in the Middle East...

the_easy_life,

If you joined up before 11/09/2001 then who knew to inform you? If you joined up after, then it wouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to have guessed where you'd be spending most of your time.

[cornish-stormrider]

Well, Arrse have over forty pages of comical piss takes and abuse.....

Well done lads, the RAF now look even closer to what was it?

Ah, yes.

The militant wing of EasyJet.
Command screw ups aside, how low have we sunk that the NCO's can't organise hot food themselves present a sarcastic invoice to the MoD.....

Improvise gents, ship out a BBQ, do something.......
Any fool can be uncomfortable.

[ValMORNA]

RAF Fayid in the Suez Canal Zone, 1950's, such poor catering in the Airmen's Mess that there was a 'Boycott-Meals Strike'. Staff from the Woes 'n Joes Mess transferred, meals at W&J's suffered. Two enterprising mess members organised an evening catering establishment (a hut) which sold freshly-cooked egg sarnies at competitive prices. Problem solved!

[Melchett01]

Well, Arrse have over forty pages of comical piss takes and abuse.....

Over forty pages ? Just shows how much free time they must have in the Army these days, what with all those ops they've got on at the moment.

They need to be very careful when casting aspersions over future relevance - there's only so many times you can 'deploy' to Salisbury Plain or BATUS in the absence of anything else to do ;)

[Stuff]

They should have plenty of time for Arrse since they've all gone home to keep warm for Christmas.

[London Eye]

So, nearly 50 pages of discussion after one letter from one serviceman - and reading between the lines in the BBC article it was possibly a note home shared with the BBC by the recipient. I just hope that anyone piling in to the "bunch of whingers" camp has never dripped themselves in a letter or call home. :rolleyes:

[Melchett01]

Stuff ... :D:D:D. :E

[Selatar]

The staff sergeants on aarse will crack on regardless in their toxic endeavour against anything that doesn't dig-in. Truth is the army have a very small number of Coy minus contingency ops (SF aside) whilst the RN and RAF has a significant, current and future op role that matches political intent. Comical army plans to send brigades around the world are matched with politicians saying f##k off you lunatics look what you did the last two times. You have to go back to 97 for the last year the RAF were not doing 'warheads on foreheads'. Cheese sandwich issues aside we know our business; but will winge as per SOP....

[barnstormer1968]

London eye
I think most service personnel are fine with calls or letters home :)
A letter directly to Mark urban an from a named RAF sergeant isn't perhaps very wise. I assume the Air Force have a policy about writing directly to members of the media and this letter doesn't fit with that.
ISIS will have been very happy to hear the strength of available aircraft though!
I doubt they were overly bothered about the fact that ONE meal during one shift pattern wasn't hot though.

Look on the bright side though, if Typhoon 93 had asked how many fully capable aircraft were at Gib then all hell would have broken loose, with folks asking if he needed to know (walls have ears and all that) :)

Still, the idea of NO hot food is the main headline grabber here............and no one is asking how the curry and rice from the rat packs was heated !
Do we know if everyone on those shifts were eating cold food, if rat packs could be heated so could other food.

[Whenurhappy]

Comical army plans to send brigades around the world are matched with politicians saying f##k off you lunatics look what you did the last two times.

Ahh, yes, this Adaptive Brigades nonsense; subalterns and SNCOs planning STTTs to the back of beyond without clearing it through Mil Strat Plans, and local Foreign Johnnies thinking that every English-speaking person finishes every sentence with an interrogative 'yeah?' and that the most common adjective is 'f*cking'.

Training teams pitching up in said 'back of beyond' without the necessary clearances from the receiving state and the DA and his team having to run around in circles squaring it with the local Interior and Foreign Ministries.

What could possibly go f*cking wrong, yeah?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

My terms and conditions that I signed up to have been altered beyond all recognition, I wasn't told that my entire career would be ops in the Middle East...

If you joined up before 11/09/2001 then who knew to inform you? If you joined up after, then it wouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to have guessed where you'd be spending most of your time.

Melmothtw, when easy says the bit in bold above, I interpret it differently. I don't believe he was naive enough to assume that he wouldn't see some sort of operational time in the ME; anyone who joined within the 21st century has very little excuse in that sense.

However, I don't think any of us thought that our entire careers would be nothing but op deployments and training for them. Perhaps, like me and my peers, easy thought he might get the chance for the occasional tour off the front line. Maybe an instructional job. Maybe an out of branch tour, or something different like recruiting?

I have peers who've moved for the past 4-8 years through 3 or 4 separate Tornado squadrons, sometimes bouncing from one that's just returned from HERRICK to one that's just about to start the workup. One colleague is 32 months into a GR4 tour. He's spent 16 months at Kandahar, 3 months at Gioia supporting ELLAMY, and is now into a stint at Aki on SHADER. Counting a couple of weeks here and there on exercises etc, he's been away for something like 21 months out of a 32 month tour.

What waits after this tour? Probably another GR4 tour, maybe as a QWI, and more of the same, with just 3 FL sqns to cover the load.

People joined up to go on ops, sure. But I don't know anyone who joined up to spend 2 years out of a 3 year tour on ops. That's fine if you're a young, enthusiastic 19 year old, maybe, but when the training system's so broken we have 30 year old first tourists, it's not entirely reasonable. People have a right to a life, a family, the chance to live normally, and that level of deployment doesn't allow it.

If things had been managed better, maybe we'd still have 5 or even 7 front line GR4 squadrons handling HERRICK/ELLAMY/SHADER, plus the small det to Africa. Then it wouldn't be the same people over and over again, both aircrew and groundcrew. There should be enough people to stick to harmony rules. There should be enough people to allow everyone varied careers. When 6 out of 8 of your colleagues looking at postings are getting extended or otherwise shafted by Manning, it's clear we don't have enough people.

And yes, some people, even within spitting distance of IPP, do vote with their feet. I'm sure that with the sort of deployment burden II(AC) have had, a crap cheese sandwich would have been the final straw for me!

[minigundiplomat]

I can't really foment from the perspective of the anonymous sergeant in Cyprus as I have never served on a Tornado squadron.

I have served on several Chinook squadrons, and as ex-aircrew I would say this:

The Chinook engineers have been constantly deployed since 1982; and lived for extended periods in every kind of sh1thole - tents, barns, 4 tonners, the back of the aircraft and bombed out office blocks - KAF/AKT are actually a huge and recent level of improvement.

They deliver the goods every time; whether it's -25 and snowing sideways or +50, outside of the wire recovering a down bird in Musa Qala or on a grey funnel carrier for months. They take pride in what they do, because they understand the importance of what they do - right down to regularly sluicing blood out the back of the IRT aircraft.

They have, as they have always had, my enduring respect. I can't help thinking they would have done what they have always done and got on with it, laughed off the cheese roll, grumbled a bit, as we all do, and then nicked lunch from one of the aircrew.

My only point concerns the fact that they wear the same blue suit as the Tornado guys, but don't feel as 'special'; possibly because they are closer to the guy on the ground and the guys on the aircraft, appreciate the bigger picture and realise they are in the military.

[the_easy_life]

Just to qualify Melmothw you're saying that anybody who joined after 9/11 should expect to spend most of their time on ops in the ME for the next 10 years?
My actual point that you highlighted was about terms of service however. A flying pay change for the worse, two pension changes for the worse and an extension of service of two years to qualify for a pension in 11 years... Although I suppose if I joined up after 9/11 I should have guessed they would happen too should I?

5 forward 6 back thanks for your post that is exactly one of the points I was making.

[haltonapp]

Working at night on shift is very tiring, time passes slowly and you need a meal break to break the monotony. If you had your last hot meal at 1800 prior to starting your shift and the only prospect is breakfast at 0700 then I can assure you after a week or so patience runs thin! Also between 0200 and 0500 your body clock wants to go to sleep, an uplift of sugar is required, mistakes can be made and whether you are in a rotary wing or fixed it can be fatal to the crew, and they expect the ground crew fit and able to do a good job. I am sure that the galley on a ship never shuts and the army always have equipment to make a hot meal. If you have never worked a night shift for an extended period, please don't slag people off for complaining about lack of hot food!

[Mickj3]

Whilst agreeing in general with minigundioplomat I am sure that when the chips (no pun) are down the Tornado guys/girls would respond in exactly the same way as their colleagues in the Chinook fleet. What we are talking about here is a Main Operating Base that has been in existence for god knows how many years. Akrotiri is hosting a small detachment of Tornadoes engaged in operations, the whole station should be focused on supporting these people and making their job as easy as possible. Regrettably over the years Akrotiri has acquired a reputation of treating transients and detachments as an inconvenience, to be tolerated, as they will soon go away. Perhaps Air command should consider detaching MCSU (or their modern equivalent) in support of the Tornadoes if Akrotiri cant cope. Then we would probably be getting letters from "disgruntled of Akrotiri" complaining about the high standard of food the MCSU are dishing out whilst the permanent residents are eating crap.

[Mr C Hinecap]

I have served on several Chinook squadrons, and as ex-aircrew

If everyone was as special as you once were, then you'd not have been so special would you?

I've worked with rotary, FJ, transport and EW fleets. Each is different and each attracts a different sort of person, both to operate and support. It's like the RN, Army & RAF having different roles, cultures and therefore appeal to different people. We can't all be winged gods but, amazingly, not everyone wants the same thing.

[minigundiplomat]

Whoa there Chincock,

Wind back the inferiority handle and read my post again.

Nice work fitting in all those types; you look like you get moved on regularly.....

[dctyke]

Haltonapp, you have got it in one.... Plus trying to sleep in the daytime in a world full of noise.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

The Chinook engineers have been constantly deployed since 1982; and lived for extended periods in every kind of sh1thole - tents, barns, 4 tonners, the back of the aircraft and bombed out office blocks - KAF/AKT are actually a huge and recent level of improvement.

They deliver the goods every time; whether it's -25 and snowing sideways or +50, outside of the wire recovering a down bird in Musa Qala or on a grey funnel carrier for months. They take pride in what they do, because they understand the importance of what they do - right down to regularly sluicing blood out the back of the IRT aircraft.

MGD, referring to my earlier post; there are plenty of fleets who have had lengthy, enduring periods on ops, but nowadays it's unprecedented. Yes, Chinooks have been away somewhere pretty much every year since 1982, and the Tornado GRs since 1991; but at those times, there were so many more people.

I think we had in the region of 10 Tornado squadrons in the mid-90s (2, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 27, 31, 45, 617...?) to service deployments. Even when they first did HERRICK, the GR4 force had 7 squadrons to share the load (2, 9, 12, 13, 14, 31, 617) with bolstering from the OCU.

Now, the GR4 soldiers on with 3 squadrons. Less than half the number of crews as the start of HERRICK, and with ELLAMY, Africa and SHADER all rearing their heads before HERRICK properly finished.

It's not being continuously on ops, it's being continuously on ops with such a small force that each individual is on ops much more. That's why I don't give credence to the "didn't they join up to go on ops?" argument; yes they did, but not constantly with nothing else and no respite! I gave the example of my colleague who's now on his 22nd month away in 32. While the Chinook force as a whole may have been fighting various wars since 1982, I'd warrant that it's only within the last 3-4 years that they've been cut so much they've started hitting this level of deployment; which is why they're being struck with so many PVRs!

Likewise the GR4 guys. I work with ex-GR4 navs who are thoroughly hacked off at the prospect of being dragged back to see the jet out of service, knowing how few people they are and how overstretched they are.

When you PVR, it lets you list your top 4 reasons for leaving. I wonder how many people in the last 3 years have put "overstretch and operational commitments" at the top?

[mad_jock]

Does the RAF not have any Norwiegens?

Night shift with a REME workshop we always got fed. Yes it was all in stew, curry or chicken in unidentifiable white sauce and rice/spuds. MAybe not the hottest meal in the world but it was a carb and protein boost.

And if that wasn't going one of the staff's would be promoted to slop jockey and make something up.

The boss would even cook some nights as he put it I more use doing this than sitting on my arse in the office pushing paper.


We also made a pasty oven with sheet metal and bodged a burner that ran off the acetylene bottle with an air hose from the hanger pump not to waste the o2. it was officially called the welding rod pre heater.

[fabs]

Yes, there are some RAF Units (not necessarily flying units) that deploy can/do indulge in quite a bit of 'self help'. I suppose the question is, being on an MOB should these guys have to?

[minigundiplomat]

5 Fwd, 6 Back,

Appreciate the points and understand to a degree. However, it's not going to improve this side of never.... This is a clear choice of accepting the eroded T's & C's of the UK military, accepting it's somewhere between the air cadets and Burkina Faso in terms of funding and support, or trying ones luck in industry.

I don't remember 'trial by dear Deirdre' as a method of leadership, change or law within the UK Armed Forces.

[mad_jock]

At a REME second line workshop we did self help.

It was just something we were used to doing. If it was a choice between going hungry or sorting something more civilized out it would get sorted. Hell we even had showers and a hot water bowser rigged up so the boys could get a shower before going back to there scratchers and not have to go near the ablutions in the mad morning rush and get dicked to clean them.

[4mastacker]

The Minister of State, Mark Francois MP, gave this "holding answer" to a PQ by Defence Committee member Madeleine Moon MP: (Quote taken from 'TheyWorkForYou.com')


As of 16 December 2014, the number of personnel on night shift at RAF Akrotiri was 238; 103 of these are deployed on Op SHADER. Op SHADER deployed personnel are provided with: a dinner meal in the early evening; a choice between a hot container meal or a cold packed meal during the night; and a breakfast meal on completion of duty. During the early stages of Op SHADER, a late supper was additionally provided. However, at the request of the Op SHADER personnel, this option was changed in favour of either cold packed meals or hot container meals for consumption at their place of work. Personnel deployed on OP SHADER receive their meals at Crown expense. Non Op SHADER personnel have the option of cold packed meals during the night shift but are required to order in advance and pay for them in accordance with the Pay as You Dine contract.

The catering management at RAF Akrotiri for armed forces personnel is provided though the Cyprus Multi-Activity Contract (CMAC) awarded by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) to Sodexo. At RAF Akrotiri, Sodexo offers three core meals per day and covers a period of 0600-1930 hrs daily. This period has been recently extended to assist with Op SHADER. The MOD mandates that the catering provision conforms with a number of standards, including stipulating the requirement for a balanced diet, an appropriate number of choices and calorific values.

RAF Akrotiri has extensive retail catering outlets, including a Maxi Costcutter Store, clubs, cafes and leisure outlets, which are available to all personnel including single, married and operational personnel. Opening hours of individual outlets vary between 0600-2230 hrs from Monday to Sunday.

Hmmm. So what were the late supper arrangements during the early stages - a cheese sarny perhaps? .. and how "recently" was the contract's period of cover extended? Sometime after the 5th December (when the issue first reared its head) perhaps?? That statement smacks of a damage limitation exercise. The spin doctors have taken 11 days to concoct an anus covering "all is rosy in the garden, nothing to see, move on" facade that is less than convincing!

[the_easy_life]

I can tell you straight away from very recent experience that the line about op shader meals being at crown expense is an utter lie. I have a bill as proof...

[vascodegama]

From feedback I have heard, there is allegedly a free option at each meal the practicality is somewhat different.

[Hangarshuffle]

Always put a "night flyers" meal on for us onboard the CVS. Hot meal, sometimes the leftovers from the main meal, but sometimes pie chips and beans. Or similar. But hot. Then a cup of tea, fag or small cigar in my case, back to work......not rocket science.
But always appreciated by me.
Is it true hundreds of RAF groundcrew died in WW2 from illness brought about by working generally at night in Winter on aircraft out in the sticks in the airbases of Bomber Command?
Lot to relearn, every generation finds this.

[Whenurhappy]

Hangar Shuffle,

Bomber Harris describes the 'thousands' of ground crew in Bomber Command who died (pneumonia, vehicle accidents, TB, and the like) as a result of the austere conditions - hence why he campaigned at the time for a Medal for both air crew and ground crew. Opposed by the Army, of course.

Same arguments 70 years later for deployed personnel supporting air operations over Libya; I recently had a rather heated discussion with a visiting Colonel about this. He contended that staying in a 4* hotel cancelled out operational service. I pointed out that no one was staying in a 4* hotel....but let's not the facts get in the way of a good story.


Speaking of which has anyone seen the latest on the Officers' Long Service medal? There was to be an announcement before Christmas.

[Biggus]

I should hope nobody from the RAF was staying in a 4* hotel - there are standards you know. :=


Surely there was sufficient 5* accommodation available?

[Haraka]

Haraka Senior, as a 19 year old ex-Halton brat, ( 39 entry) found himself in Malta in 1942.
Already well down on weight due to the rationing , he was working on the line when he got "Malta Dog" ( a.k.a. three day fly disease IIRC).
Pulling the chocks away from a departing 126 Sqn. Spitfire, he fainted, the Spitfire rolling across his wrist as it went on it's way.
He came to when a bucket of water was thrown over his head by his Flight Sergeant, who pointed out there were other aircraft around the dispersal that required urgent attention.

It goes back to the ethos that in the RAF of those days, the men basically supported the equipment in order to fight .

[26er]

1956 - Suez


The Tangmere wing of Hunter F5s (Nos 1 & 34 Squadrons) arrived at Akrotiri and spent a month in pretty basic conditions. The pilots lived in new MQs but no water of electricity on safari beds. After a month of this we moved to Nicosia where we started operating a "battle flight " system with all the aircraft pooled and the squadrons working from midday to midday alternately. It soon became obvious that the station was still on a peacetime footing, i.e. everything closed at 1200 and off for Egyptian PT. Our officers were in tents opposite the mess entrance. At the station execs' meeting attended by our wingco he forcefully made the point about lack of support from the station for the operational units. He also complained of the accommodation for the pilots vis a v the station staff and was facetiously told by O.C. Admin that the only permanent accommodation available was the squash courts. The S*** hit the fan that afternoon when a visiting army team arrived to find the off duty squadron had moved in. Paddy Chrisham, the AOC, had his ear battered by the chaps in the bar and very soon proper rooms in the mess were found, admittedly doubled up, and the equippers had to open all day etc.


But it seems that attitudes never change!

[dallas]

Speaking of which has anyone seen the latest on the Officers' Long Service medal? There was to be an announcement before Christmas.
Are you pissed, Sir? There are enough of them out there already in SO2 land ready to sell their grannies for a better pension, dreaming up the next meaningless changes to garner attention and justify their budget, without adding to the automatic and often unjustified rewards! Keep officer medals for leadership and bravery - you'll save a lot on raw materials.

[Melchett01]

Dallas,

Like it or not, it's going to happen. It was specifically noted in the Holmes medal review that direct entry officers were the only people not eligible for some form of long service award, an anomaly when you note that Reservist officers without time in the ranks before commissioning qualify.

It's all 'one force' now, I don't see how they will be able to ignore it especially with the issue of the NDM being kicked into the long grass. This would mean that as long as you met the criteria, everybody should leave service with at least one gong.

[Wander00]

By Jove, OCs Admin come in for a lot of bashing! All I worked for, and Mike West at B....k was stunning example, strove to give best support to the squadrons. I certainly did when I reached those dizzy heights. When I was in Command accounts before an Inspection I used to ring OC Acts and tell him that when I flew I was happier and thus wrote nicer reports - how many hours could he get me? What he did not realise what this was a test of his relationship with the squadrons on his station - I had usually already fixed the flying! However, there doubtless were some "jobsworths" in the Admin Branch - did my best to change attitudes.

[Surplus]

I emailed the MP who asked the PQ about the rations and informed her, that in the opinion of someone who was actually there and had a bill for the food, she had been lied to in the answer. Here is her reply:

Dear Mr Surplus, thank you for your email. Let’s see what reply I receive!

Pursuant to his reply to question 217721 on 18th December if he will a) confirm when the catering arrangements were extended to assist with Op SHADER b) what choices were in place on 4th December 2014 c) whether personnel on Op SHADER received their meals at Crown Expense on 4th December 2014 and if he will make a statement.

Madeleine

Madeleine Moon MP

Bridgend

House of Commons

London SW1A 0AA

02072194417

It's nice when they listen.

[alfred_the_great]

I presume the same people who called for that young lad to be banned over FOIs now go for you. A PQ like that will stop all work across the relevant parts of the RAF until it is answered. Some poor bugger is going to have to work out of the menu choices from a month a go.

[Hangarshuffle]

That the people at the bottom of the RAF are just little people to the ones at the top, even though they are the bricks,mortar and foundations that are keeping it all up?
Out here where I work, within a multinational organization, our workforce ranges from a locally sourced pretty basic labour force, going up to semi and skilled blue and white collar workforce up to top industry executives (who are very highly valued, qualified and paid accordingly).All creeds and all colours.
Not many British, in fact probably less than 2% or 3% of the workforce.
We are all on the same food, and use the same dining facility, queue up together and believe me the place works so much better because of this.
This is the second time I have seen this in the last few years...both foreign run and managed big multinationals....
The only other place I ever witnessed the same sort of set up within the British military was Charlie Camp at Basra COB, which was utterly unique but still worked very well.
What I'm saying is something is basically wrong in the way the British managerial classes are thinking and managing things....other civilised nations do it far, far better.

[Whenurhappy]

I presume the same people who called for that young lad to be banned over FOIs now go for you. A PQ like that will stop all work across the relevant parts of the RAF until it is answered. Some poor bugger is going to have to work out of the menu choices from a month a go.

No - this is not a vexatious request, as it might serve to correct the official record and demonstrate that someone, somewhere was economical with the actualite in a matter that has garnered a considerable amount of public interest.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The cause of the 'vexatious' request is firstly the poor phrasing of the original question, which asked what the conditions are (present tense), but mostly the response. The Minister knew d@mn well he should have stated what the situation was at the time of the original outcry, but failed to do so.

[Whenurhappy]

So in which case, this matter does need correcting.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If nothing else, there are three fundamental questions which the Minister failed to answer.
1) Were members of our Armed Forces lying with the original accusation?
2) If not, how on Earth did we end up with the situation where personnel are paying for food on operations?
3) What, if anything, has been done to ensure this won't happen again?

Mistakes happen - I had to do a bit of running around Akrotiri during Granby to get my ginger beers fed properly as they were fixing my jet at all hours. This situation looks like it had arisen from policy however, and I would imagine that's why the Minister is trying to dodge the question.

[Surplus]

This situation looks like it had arisen from policy however, and I would imagine that's why the Minister is trying to dodge the question.

and that is exactly why they shouldn't be allowed to get away with being 'economical with the truth' (let's just call it lying) and, what is worse, basically accusing the whistle-blower of being incorrect (let's just call it lying).
I'm not a fan of politicians, irrelevant of their party, however, Ms Moon has taken the trouble to pursue this further, for that she has my thanks.