So about EK...

[fightthepower]

Ladies and gentlemen, I have read most of the existing threads about Emirates here and I feel very up to date on recruitment procedure. However the info on roster, pay and accomodation gets old very quickly. I don't want this post to drown in the big EK thread, so I would like to ask a few questions here if you don't mind. I realise there probably is no certain answer to most questions but would really appreciate your thoughts.

I am in my mid twenties with just over 3000 hours on B737. No family to support.

People obviously not happy with Meydan accom, i checked around and figured that the allowance will get me a decent flat around the Marina. Are the rent hikes so bad that the allowance won't be enough in a few years?

Is 777 fleet going to become the "new" 330 fleet? IE night turns in the region and 8 days off a month, because I wouldn't want to leave my current job for that. However a nice mix of flying and 15 days off a month I could really do with.

Is the financial package really that bad? The salary posted on the website (~29000 AED) doesn't sound so bad, given all bills are paid. Am I missing something obvious here?

Time to command estimates are hard, but is it going to be over 7 years?

Most importantly, are your colleagues nice people to fly with in general?

[jack schidt]

777 will be the chosen one to do all the night turns as the A330 and A340 aircraft go. Most of the US will shortly become A380 as is the case in Australia.

I would certainly not count on getting 15 days off a month. The minimum is 8 days to recover and welcome to an airline that is good at running a fatigue programme that would not be allowed in other countries.

29k AED is a good salary for a single person but, you will find it rather expensive here and your salary will not be as good as you think as it will not stretch as far as it would in your homeland.

777 command, 7 years as as good a guess as any (for today).

Most crew are professional and friendly, you will rarely fly with the same crew member in a year.

[fightthepower]

Thanks for the answer, much appreciated.

For reference I'm currently working for SAS on short haul. Variable roster with 12 days off per month (minimum 1 weekend) and piss poor pay on their new pay scale. Command/Long haul 7 years away, earning EUR3000 before tax and continously battling the company trying to outsource its flying staff.

Seriously considering a move abroad.

Not Ryanair though, came from there and would rather be homeless than work for them again.

[CamelRustler]

I honestly believe if EK could roster everyone 8 days off a month they would. The new bidding system will allow them greater flexibility in rostering and eliminate any wastage on their part, i.e. if the company goal is 90 hours you won't get 87.3 hours you will get 89.7 hours.


The issue with renting is this. For those of us that were here 8 years ago rents doubled every year. The landlords were not allowed to raise your rent more than 10% a year. So the landlords kicked you out half way through your lease, then rented to someone else at a much higher rate. People were moving every 6-8 months. It is happening again to a lesser degree but you could get caught in the cycle of moving twice a year and trying to find a new place. It's lots of fun. I moved 4 times my first two years here.
Also remember eight days off is 50% fewer than you get now. 1 day off 5 days on 1 day off 7 days on 2 days off 5 days on 1 day off 4 days on 2 days off 3 days on. That's what 8 days off looks like here. Half of those 8 days are single days. I have gone 13 days with one day off 4 times this year. It is flat out brutal. I wish you luck in wherever you choose to go. I would explore all your options.

[Widebdy]

Good questions by the OP who has obviously done a lot of research already. On the point of salary not going as far as expected in Dubai, this statement, a common one on PPRuNe, has got to be down to perceptions?

I am a FO living in London with no kids, I live comfortably but saving is almost impossible. Price comparison websites indicate the cost of living in Dubai is 15-20% less than London, with the main exception being alcohol :hmm:.

In Dubai I would have rent paid AND my net salary would be 25% more. On paper that indicates I should be able to save a lot more in Dubai than I can in London. In short I am accustomed to high prices and high rent.

If you don't originate from an expensive city then it is understandable that you might over estimate your net salary? Is that what is happening? There is after all unforeseen costs and taxes in all countries :uhoh:

[CaptainChipotle]

WideB

You're missing some big points...

In London, you have culture, things to do, and a very good public transportation system.

In Dubai, as you said, you will pay slightly less for rents, but you'll stumble out of your flat into sand or a construction zone, or have to sneak your way through the cars that are illegally parked on the street with their flashers.

With the money I pay for rent, I could live in NYC (not quite 5th ave or upper east side, but in manhatten). One thing for sure, I can't walk outside my apartment and see an award winning broadway show, walk to 1,000 shops and restaurants, see movies without people making phone calls and cross the streets without having to look for a blacked out nissan patrol going 180k through a red light... you get the point.

Also, flying during the day here is getting less and less. Maybe its hard to keep track with the lack of many days off.

CC

[fightthepower]

Thanks for all responses. If people don't feel comfortable posting info here they can PM me. Roster or any other info, I'll take anything.

[glofish]

Am I missing something obvious here?

Yes, you are. It's written all over these pages but amazingly many wannabies simply can't comprehend the content.

As we all agree, in the civilised world the airline industry is in trouble. It is however quite cyclic, as proven now with the recall in the US and the UK.

As you should have distilled by now, the industry in the ME is in a big bubble, but the conditions for the newcomers only point in one direction: Lower.

So if you have a job back home, there is a chance that the cycle can wash you down, certainly, but just as much that it can present opportunities.
If you come to EK today, the only certainty is that the conditions will deteriorate.

Unfortunately any information you gather now, any rosy picture you draw up for yourself will be history by tomorrow. It has been like that for the last ~6 years with no sign of any softening trend. On the contrary.

There is more risk here than home. Again, this considering you having a halfway decent job back there.

Don't think twice, think hard trice ....... for us, stuck in the sandpit, your situation is a no brainer.

[greenslopes]

Don't go,don't go,don't go!
Having flown as an expat in varied cultures there are far more things valued than the salary you receive.
Unfortunately discovering this two or three years after you have joined a new mob in the sandpit is a bitter pill to swallow.
Act in haste, repent at leisure!

[fatbus]

Been here 13 + years and it has progressively gone down hill, lately getting faster. Greed is the underlying goal.you the employee are not held in any regard at all. New hire upgrades will be determined only by attrition, the overall fleet size is almost reached. The recent servey was a shock to senior mangament,might see some changes but that will take years, in the mean time 100's will leave making room for upwards movement, until the hull loss. At which point I and many others hope to not be here. If you think you have seen finger pointing wait til then. Presently , can't wait to get out of here.

[harry the cod]

fightthepower

The responses you'll receive are likely to be subjective rather than objective as circumstances are different for each and everyone one of us. These emotive factors will undoubtedly be reflected in our personal views on EK and Dubai.

Firstly, the easy question to answer. Most of our colleagues are generally good company and professional and as already stated, rarely do you fly with the same crew twice. As in every airline, there is the odd exception!

Let's start with Dubai. It's a love it or hate it mentality. Even if you love it, you'll hate the driving. It is frustrating and dangerous with massive variation in standards and mainly young locals intent on killing themselves and anyone who might get in their way. Ignorance and arrogance in equal deadly measure. Alcohol is expensive but no more so than Scandinavia I'd imagine and actually cheap when you bundle it in with buffet offers in hotels. Then it becomes a good deal, especially with so many discounts available through either Emirates Platinum card or Emirates Pilots Club. these can offer anything from 10-50% off in restaurants, excluding weekends mainly. Weather is brutal in summer so outdoor activity from May through to end of September is very restrictive. Rest of year is generally good. Nice beaches with ongoing work to 'beautify' the coast and more facilities being added. Public transport improving all the time, metro (busy), tram, regular buses. Not sure how often CaptainChipotle uses them but they are efficient and cheap (far cheaper than London). Most importantly, Dubai is a safe city. You'll feel safe outside, anywhere and anytime, far more so than any other city I've been to except perhaps in Japan.

What about EK? It would take way too long to go into every detail but contrary to your post, the basics haven't really changed. Emirates is little different to any other airline out there and conditions are only ever going one way 'whilst' there is a surplus of supply. You will work hard. 3 of my last 4 years have resulted in over 900 hours pay. Rules will be pushed and interpreted to fit the program and admin issues can be tiresome. You'll deal with robots, morons and cultures so intent on furthering their own sycophantic desires that if they wobble their heads any more, they'll fall off. The Boeing will certainly take over the A330 type of flying but with 150 B777 in service /on order, there'll still be plenty of layovers too. The A380 is the flagship and will do mostly stateside and big destinations, such as London. However, make no mistake, this Company is a money making machine and will put the big bird where it makes the money. If India opens up it's seat quota, a 2 class 'Super' will be plying the route in no time. The B777X will be a game changer in fuel but will still be the workhorse. You will be on the Boeing when you start. Where you go after that is up to what policy is in force that particular day! Same for command, but 7 years is a ballpark.

What I do like is the variation of routes. Turnrounds, layovers, freighters (B777) and range of flying from simple 2 sector 40 minute Doha return to a 16hr San Francisco. 24hour layover to a 10 day cargo trip. As a single guy, this airline is difficult to beat for variety. As for accommodation, Meydan may well be the ultimate destination of all pilots but while you're single, an apartment will be offered. You'll be in this for some time I'd imagine. Unless you're prepared to rent some tiny grotto and save the allowance, do not rent. Always go with Company accommodation first, you can always change later if things get really bad. You can't do it in reverse. Better still, if you have some money to bring over, consider buying, even a small apartment. 200K euro would get you a 1 bed good area or 2 bed still in decent location. You'd get an additional $4000 a month to help pay that mortgage off. That's on top of the $8700 you'd be getting each month. (29,000 dhs basic plus 3000 flight pay). You do the maths. A single guy, clearing $12,700 a month....as a F/O. The Company will also put in 12% of your salary into the Provident fund each month, increasing to 15% after 10 years. You'll do 5%.

So, if it's for financial improvement, it's a no brainer, especially if you're single. However, don't make this move just for the money. It's a lifestyle change here and you become part of Dubai and EK. There is lot's to do here, it's what you make of it. Don't expect to come here and then wonder why you can't put on your boots and go for long trecks through fjords and mountains thick with pine trees. If you can accept that and the fact that there is an almost unlimited supply of pretty cabin crew prepared to keep you company, this may be the place for you.

Come out for a week and give it a try. You'll either love it or hate it!

Harry

[BYMONEK]

I'll sit on the fence on this, can see both the positive and negative. However, I do disagree with Glofish. If the ME is a bubble then god help the rest of the industry. While the US may be seeing signs of a recovery, I wouldn't be betting my mortgage on it. Despite legislation and unions, pilots on regional jets still earn $19,000 per year.....before tax! I would not be surprised if we see another recession and it's back to square one. Europe is a mess, massive cutbacks and salaries slashed, Asia not much better.

The Gulf airlines are chasing the same market but it's a market that's expanding hugely, transporting people mainly from India to all their corner shops around the globe. As their families grow, so will the market.

If it crashes here, the rest of the World will already be F£@D

[extramileage]

-> Harry the Cod

:ok: Fair and balanced post.

[yardman]

One other thing to consider regarding accommodation is that, as a single person you'll get an apartment, not a villa. So the issues with Meydan won't apply to you for some time yet. From casual observation most if not all of the apartments are located in pretty decent areas and I haven't heard any complaints about them.

[kingpost]

If I were you, I would rather go to the airline down the road, at least you'll have the option of working one off, one on in the future. It may not seem attractive now but when you're burnt out, it'll be a welcome alternative for your health and lifestyle.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The appartment they gave me was cool. Zabeel tower. 3 bedrooms, 3 bathes. Gym and pool on top of the car park. I still miss that appartment and the girls who followed me home from Sahara tower. But I married one of them, bought in the ranches ten years ago and that was not a bad decision. After all, EK keeps paying my mortgage.

[CATI]

Could you guys at EK give me some more details about the provided apartments offered...how do they look like, where in Dubai are they, how is the surrounding, infrastructure, people living there.

And how many nights one can expect to stay at Dubai a month - guess about 8-10?

Thanks

[TransitCheck]

A couple other points to ponder:

If you are expecting to upgrade in 7 to 10 years, make sure that you make absolutely NO mistakes.....and I do mean NONE. Some recent reasons for command delays that I have heard:

-If you fail a PPC within a couple of years they will delay your command.
-If you repeat items during your PPC (the training portion) they will delay your command even though its TRAINING.
-If your documents accidentally fall out of their holder on the overnight and you call to inform them, they will delay your command.
-If the other guy screws up and you do everything properly by calling for a go around...2 times in a row...they will delay your command.
-If you oversleep for one of the 91 hours of fatiguing trips that you have in a month....they will delay your command.

and there is nothing you can say or do about it except bend over and grab your ankles.

Meanwhile......the company has a history of hiring DEC's with no knowledge of their previous training records or work ethic and they put them directly into training without the same stupid review that you have to go through.

[TransitCheck]

A group of guys I spoke with recently said it best regarding EK and training:

It's not a good feeling to have to be checked every 6 months and have to worry about who you have for the check, what kind of mood they are in, and if they have totally been converted to an EK management slave. There are some good guys and the percentage is going up but the majority of EK TRE's still succumb to management and bow down as slaves rather than remembering that they are still pilots as well.

For example, if you screw up on minor procedural issues there will be no assistance to correct the problem first as gentlemen first with no report of the issue to the company....it will always be written in your report so that management knows everything about you and can bend you over as they see fit. The TRE's seem to think that their minor comments don't make any difference as to a guys future with EK...and maybe they don't....until something bigger happens or you go to upgrade.

The big thing is that most EK TRE's seem to forget that they see this stuff every day....most of us line guys see and practice this stuff for real every 6 months.

[birdieonfirst]

It's a shame to have to say this, but...

Take what you hear from the 777 guys with a grain of salt (re. the training department)

Well written post mr. Harry. Very good indeed!

:ok:BOF

[Trader]

The one MAJOR consideration you should look at is just how LONG you want to be at EK!

If you give up a job at home in a seniority environment then going back will become an issue. In Europe, NA, OZ etc life as a junior pilot can be a bit difficult but with time the pay and rosters improve. Usually.

So you give up that seniority to get immediate benefits - more money and, for most, a big shiny jet. The lure of a large jet, unfortunately, clouds many peoples judgment.

I know more than a few pilots here, in their late 20's or early 30's who have come to the realization that they either have to go back now or spend the next 30 years at EK or as a contract pilot. I think this is why some of the younger guys are leaving. They have a very valid concern.

You are young and single now but won't be forever and as life passes your priorities change.

With time to command certainly above 7/8 years (unless something changes dramatically) this is a difficult decision. It means many years on a lower salary and I would NOT make a decision to come here on the HOPE that it will be faster than that.

You should be able to read between the lines here, take the posts with a grain of salt but with the realization that there is truth behind most and come to a decision.

[BYMONEK]

Transitcheck

I think the training department has come on a long way in the last 7 years and is constantly improving. It takes time to change a culture within a Company but I think MM has done a good job within the 'other' cultural constraints. 2 trainers from the 330 and 7 from the Boeing have been asked to leave within the last 12 months due to performance issues. 10 years ago, nobody would report a trainer for poor performance or grading, now they're more likely to.

I have had 3 bad experiences in almost 12 years, two of which I followed up on. One of the guys was an arse and has a reputation but I argued my case. I Passed but I had the confidence and knowledge to do so. There are still some arses, no denying, and one in particular in the Boeing office doing all the dirty work for someone above him who may or may not decide to come to work each day, depending on the mood he's in.

However, the great majority of trainers are good and getting better, although we have lost some talent due to overwork. Unfortunately, there are still a number of pilots who expect to be spoon fed and simply don't prepare or try to second guess every sim cheek by reading the 'Examiner Only' notes in great detail. That's probably why more have failed on this phase than previous.

[littlejet]

When I was your age I was only thinking about one thing and my whole life was driven by that thing only. In EK you are at the sweet spot! Fly and have fun in SAS, EK or wherever...housing, days off, schooling upgrade ...relax, you have 30ties and 40ties to think about it. If you try to reverse the order it will be expensive (divorce)

[Neptune Spear]

If one is hell bent on leaving Europe to come to the sand you should probably think of Qatar or the Un-mentionable before EK.
The reasons are they both pay more than Emirates when you consider everything including hours worked.
Also Emirates will probably have a 9-10 year upgrade if you join now. The other airlines you are looking at 3 years max.
Emirates has a 5 year training bond now but I don't know what the other airlines have, if any.
Inflation is skyrocketing in Dubai and won't get any easier especially with Expo coming. We as pilots will probably be paying the price for that in the form of lack of pay raise and stolen end of year Bonus.
To answer your question in the first post yes rents will be going up considerably.
Stay in Europe and enjoy everything it has to offer.

[fightthepower]

Thanks for all the replies.

I am not hell-bent on leaving Europe or settling in the desert, it is not a goal in itself.

I left Ryanair to come home to Scandinavia, I really like it here and want to stay, but not at any price.

It's just a tough gamble to go all-in on EK or the Middle East, risking to figure out it wasn't for you all along and then starting over again someplace else.

Keep em coming guys.

[halas]

"Most of the US will shortly become A380 as is the case in Australia."

The A380 has 4 flights a day to Australia.

The B777 has 8 flights a day plus three freighters a week.

B777 to ORD, SEA, IAD, BOS, JFK. Hardly "most".

The US is covered by freighters as well to LAX ORD, ATL and IAH as the "super" can not load the freight.

halas

[fliion]

Harry's post.

Good one.

If you come to ME to give it a go - heading to Qatar to upgrade quicker? - would be very careful about that.

f.

[White Knight]

@ Jack Schidt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Most of the US will shortly become A380 as is the case in Australia."

The A380 has 4 flights a day to Australia.

The B777 has 8 flights a day plus three freighters a week.

B777 to ORD, SEA, IAD, BOS, JFK. Hardly "most".

The US is covered by freighters as well to LAX ORD, ATL and IAH as the "super" can not load the freight.



All of the US pax, and all of the Oz pax will be on the 380... Wake up and smell the 'corfeeee' halas:D

As for freight... well, the 380 is designed to carry people. I'm glad 'cos I never wanted to be a freight-dog:ok:

[fatbus]

Halas, believe what you want to believe .

[RexBanner]

As a potential future applicant to EK (although looking less and less likely at the moment given all the stories of deterioration coming out of this company) I have to express my absolute disbelief that New York is a 24 hour nightstop. What is the routine for crews operating this route (and presumably the others) do you even get out of the Crowne Plaza?

With regards to applying to EK. If you're doing 1000 hours longhaul and don't even get to enjoy the destinations then seriously, what is the point?

[TransitCheck]

ByMonek,

I agree, things have gotten better over the last few years.

I stand by what I said though.....there is no gentleman's agreement between training pilots and the pilots here.....EVERYTHING is written on your form just as management wants it to be.

I don't understand your spoon fed comments. That seems to be applicable on an initial course not a 2 day re-validation. My point in the above lines about gentleman's agreement between training pilots and pilots being non existent says it all. Every other airline I have worked for we all looked out for one another....line pilots looked out for the training guys when they were flying the line and the training guys looked out for the line guys when they were in training. Here it is a one way street.

Cheers
TC

[jack schidt]

Dear Halas,

Please read latest Ops update and note points....

A380 replacing 777-300 ER on......SFO and IAH, more to come and just stay posted to these pages if you don't read your updates. Perth is just waiting for the bridge construction before the A380 runs that route. Please I beg you, this is not an A380 vs 777 thread and do not let it go that way, I am just giving the thread poster and yourself the valuable information that if you are on the 777 you are not "the premier fleet" anymore!! :{

------------

Rexbanner, EK have the attitude that the less time you spend on a layover the less tired (there is no fatigue in EK's eyes/mandate) you will be when you get back to Dubai. Now, as you are not tired on your return to Dubai you are therefore pleased and most willing to go on your 9 day extravaganza to Asia-Australia-NZ-Australia-Asia before your return to Dubai and then another America trip.

I used to drink alcohol but living in the Middle East I have been converted to sobriety. When I used to drink I would fall asleep on my bed on rare occasions and wake-up later with a sore head, feeling groggy and the TV might be on and then I would put myself into bed. These days and with this pattern/demand in flying, I do not need to drink alcohol for it to have the same effect on me.

Jack

[Curry Goat]

Jack, the funny thing is that the exact opposite works for me. :}

CG

[fightthepower]

I want to revive this thread by asking about personal issues at EK. How does EK help with time off or leave when a pilot has personal problems?

Im talking sick or dying relative, divorce and so on.

I have this nightmare of being stuck on the other side of the earth with a dying parent and my employer telling me it's not their problem. This is actually a deal braker for me, any experience on the matter?

[777boyindubai]

I am no fan of EK. But on these matters they are very helpful and sympathetic.

[fightthepower]

Thank you.

[colo18]

Hey guys thanks for all your posts

I had my selection process 10-13 Nov and still waiting for feedback. We were 9 and 4 were sent home after day 1. Yesterday another one was informed NOT selected after almost one month waiting.

Any idea what could have happened? Also for the rest of us when can we expect a reply from EK.

I am in a difficult situation since I have 4 kids and one will be OUT of coverage for everything but I have no job for more than 3 months now and apart from some private jobs that might arise this month there is nothing else in the horizon. So perhaps EK is my best option, at least safe and stable.

Regarding Meydan I am good with it. Schools will be an issue and I lived 5 years in Doha whilst working for QR so used to the ME.

Unfortunately the cons I read here seem to be more than the pros...

Anyone in similar situation can give me advise (family with 4 kids) or that know someone...

Thanks in advance

Colo

[jack schidt]

4 kids and on an FO salary here .....hmmmm. I hope you get to find out where the welfare food-banks are located.

GL

Is a bad (desperate) decision a good decision?

Jack

[AlanPardew]

Does anyone know how many we're recruiting this year?

[donpizmeov]

Colo18,


Your questions were answered when you asked them before you did your assessment. Reread them, the answers haven't changed.


The Don

[colo18]

I know Don, unfortunately nothing else out there.

I might be going there (if selected) for one year ALONE :eek:and see whether we can manage as a family to live there.

My other option which I was more interested was Ai Japan, but was not even selected for interview. Now I am relying on 2 offers for private jets but I am trying to avoid that since 3 months ago I ended with no job in a blink of an eye:{

[fliion]

Alan

The recruitment numbers change here all the time.

At my management wash-up meeting the number given by training head - was 250ish new hires plus an large influx of local cadets. Not sure how many that would be.

Upgrade planning for 2015 - went from 40 in August to 280 on the 777. However have now heard that the '70' that were on their way to 380 will be put on hold after Jan - as would leave t7 too short.

Anything over a week old is just that - old news.

f.

[AlanPardew]

Many thanks filion

[1013 with altsel]

If you join on the 330 fleet, would you automatically transfer to the 380?

Thanks

[fatbus]

My guess is yes . Some of the junior Capt and DEC's might get forced into the 777.

[SOPS]

And the shiny jet still attracts them.

[1013 with altsel]

It's not a 'shiny jet' that is attractive !

Having been faced with redundancy twice and uncertainty , Emirates offers a fair package and job security. The airlines in the Uk do not offer that!

And that is what is attractive

[TransitCheck]

1013.....Just to put things in perspective....most of us came here thinking the same thing you currently do and walked in the door at EK with a positive attitude.

I give you 6 months to 1 year before you realize that you should have listened to us. Good luck.

[BigGeordie]

1013, oh how you make me laugh. In over a decade Emirates have paid my salary on time every month- but so did my last employer and the one before that. It is a sad reflection on the state of the industry that being paid on time is a major plus.

As for job security, you may well be unpleasantly surprised at what you can get a (sometimes final) warning for here. Your job security sometimes only lasts as long as your first mistake.

[777boyindubai]

Transit Check and Big Geordie are bang on the money with the last two comments....

[Cowtown]

Try speaking to the F/O who resigned during his upgrade interview this week. Buy the man a drink! HR girl was left speechless. :D

[lospilotos]

A drink? The man deserves the whole bar. Rockstar!

[Murrenfan]

Can you please let us know details?

[MasterYodaEK]

Anyone heard about any changes or movement within the management?
I tried to post a thread with a link I have been shown, looks like an "Emirates Illuminati (http://www.emirates-illuminati.org/)" group try some new stuff... let's see.