Meanwhile, at Sleaford Poly...

[Whenurhappy]

From runway to fairway: Anger as RAF spends £14,000 of taxpayer cash on a GOLF SIMULATOR after cutting 10,000 staff in just four years | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2845859/From-runway-fairway-Anger-RAF-spends-14-000-taxpayer-cash-GOLF-SIMULATOR-cutting-10-000-staff-just-four-years.html)
Hmmm, not sure what to make of this. But, frankly, no different form funding other 'sporting' facilities, I suppose. The best bit, though, is reading the DM comments section.

[fabs]

I need to reduce my handicap but I'd rather fire golf balls out of my a**e than go back to Cranditz to practice.

[Door Slider]

That's £14000 that could have been poured into the NHS........😏

Given that local councils up a and down the land have also shed jobs, should we not spend money of leisure facilities such as swimming pools, football pitches or parks, oh I forgot everyone would be up in arms about that too!

Another case of a complete non story and understanding the value of nothing but the cost of everything.

The country was so proud of our servicemen who participated in the Olympics and Paralympics but heaven forbid we spend any money on sport.

As usual some of the comments are pretty bitter towards the RAF from former army/navy types, I did not realise that the RAF was the only service playing sport, how lucky we are

[Whenurhappy]

As usual some of the comments are pretty bitter towards the RAF from former army/navy types, I did not realise that the RAF was the only service playing sport, how lucky we are

I was involved in an expensive sport (sailing) for a number of years, and the Army was notorious for their Black Economy. The various regimental yachts in Gosport and other places, seemingly, had full-time cox'ns - generally a SNCO who lived upon the boat and maintained it full time, with much of the equipment purchased at public expense. And let's not get into the ethics of the recruitment of Fijians principally to bolster the Regimental Rugby Football teams.

[Wander00]

It used to be suggested that an important attribute considered in selection for RAFAT was a reasonable standard of golf.......hat, coat.............

[Lima Juliet]

As for all RAF sporting activities, I doubt this was Public Taxpayers money. I reckon this money will have come form:

1. The RAF Sports Lottery - which is a fund raising exercise from Sports Club members own money.
2. The RAF Charitable Trust - this is a trust fund set up and managed with donations. It also runs the annual Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford.
3. The Nuffield Trust set up by Viscount Nuffielf with about £1.5M in 1939 to provide access to non-public money for sporting/recreational activity for all HMForces. The Nuffield Trust (for the forces of the crown) - The Nuffield Connection (http://www.nuffieldtrust.org/connect.htm)
4. The RAF Central Fund - another large amount of money held in charitable trust RAF Community - RAF Central Fund (http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/wellbeing/rafcentralfund.cfm)

So I would offer that not a jot came from the Defence Budget and that the Golf Simulator would be an encroachment to provide accomodation for the simulator - that is about the only link to the Defence Budget.

LJ

[Basil]

Elitest, innit? :rolleyes:
Bas: One time o i/c the stn sub-aqua club in which we had all the gear and an inflatable*
Whole lot would set off on indulgence flights to agreeable diving sites.


*Dinghy, that is, you dirty barstewards! ;)
It DID come to my ears that some hanky-panky took place in the store room :E

[Courtney Mil]

Thanks for heads up. Had to post on DM.

[Wander00]

LJ - thanks for saving me the trouble - many moons ago I was the deskie at HQRAFSC for such funds - I wonder how many non-publicly provided facilities now rot on closed former RAF stations.

[gr4techie]

But it is available to all armed forces personnel for annual £20 subscription

Does my Line Manager know this? Cant wait to tell him I'm off.

Can I put a travel claim in?

[Willard Whyte]

Why do they need a simulator anyway, they've got a frikin' golf course.

[Lima Juliet]

GR4 Techie

Here is a link to RAF sports policy - RAF Sports Board - Policy (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafsportsboard/policy/)

Also, don't forget the Joint Service Adventurous Trg (JSAT) courses run by the Generic Eductaion Trg Centre (GETC). You can go sailing, gliding, paragliding, parachuting, moutain biking and lots more for FREE and be on duty. Many use these courses to decompress or to improve the team cohesion of a section/unit. I once did a JSAT course with some Lance Cpls of the Horse who had just survived a blue-on-blue by an A10 in Iraq - the course kept them together, gave them something exciting to do whilst at the same time decompress through discussing it amongst themselves in a non-work environment. I did take a lot of stick from them as CR FJ aircrew at the time! :eek:

The equivalent in the Civvy sector are Team Building and Corporate Conference days - where they are run to improve the efficiency of the company. http://www.teambuilding.co.uk JSAT has the same sort of objective and also it gets you out in the fresh air for your own health and well being.

You apply for JSAT courses through your Stn FD Trg Centre and/or PEd staff normally.

LJ :ok:

[4everAD]

Leon, AT would be lovely. At my location we can't get through our annual leave allowance due to gapped posts, lack of manpower to cover shifts etc. Apparently we're supposed to have AT once a year but that is never going to happen. Imagine the conversation withe boss trying to get approval to carry over more than 15 days leave when you've taken a week for AT instead. Life in the RAF has just become about working hard with no time to play hard. As was mentioned earlier I look forward to putting in a claim to go to Cranwell to use this machine, as we all know it was only ever purchased for the RAF Golf players and to say anything else is just spin.

[BEagle]

Why not sell sessions in this device to the local Great Unwashed, with all profits going to RAFBF and H4H?

Presumably there must be enough Lincolnshire folk, intent on ruining a good walk, who could make that viable?

[Lima Juliet]

4everAD

The Senior Leadership Team (SLT) have recognised the difficulty for some to get a week away. There are a number of Ex EAGLES 1-day JSAT activities that have recently been authorised. For example Ex SOARING EAGLE is a 1-day 'taster' activity for gliding. Still free of charge Still with the same aim in mind. Plus if you can't get a day off once a year to do something like this then there is something wrong with your management team!

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

BEags

As you well know with your long association with Service Flying Club activity, selling off spare capacity comes with many issues. Not least the Charties Commission requirement to have at leat 51% Full Membership (Regulars and some Reserves) and 49% Associate Membership (Dependents, Contractors, some Reserves, ATC and some civvy enablers) - opening the doors to the so-called "local Great Unwashed" would not be in the spirit of the Charity status of most Service Sports Assocs and Clubs. It also comes with a security burden. An accounting burden (ie. The encroachment is an agreement where no profit for another organisation is being generated from the use of Service infrastructure). Etc...

It's a great idea but within the Service regulations it just can't happen without unravelling a can of worms!

LJ :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

CASBO

I agree to some extent and I am often surprised to see that the Stn gym isn't run by Serco like the gyms outside the wire. But some RAF sports are totally funded by non-public money. The only support they get is the use of a building and all members conducting the activity are off-duty either giving their time and expertise for free or they are paying for the sport at a non-profit rate (that normally works out to be 30-50% cheaper than going to a civvy sports provider).

RAF Sports Assocs should come at no cost to the Tax Payer, but even then should offer the opportunity to the Service person to conduct that sporting activity at the lowest possible cost to the Service individual paying for it from their own funds. That is the aim of most RAF Sports Assocs and Clubs.

LJ

[4mastacker]

A consequence of the RAF handing over a certain Scottish base to the Army?

[Mystic Greg]

This was pathetic, lazy journalism by the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times. The golf simulator story appeared in RAF News on Friday: all the Sunday rag journalists have done is re-hashed the story, complete with pictures and quotes, and put a negative spin on it, while also managing to get a load of facts wrong in the process. In the context of the great matters affecting Defence, our country and the world, this is a complete non-story.

My attempt to say as much in the Mail on Sunday comments has not appeared: either their server is remarkably slow or I've been 'moderated'. I won't be bothering to pay for access through the Times' firewall to comment there.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mrs PNs input, it's not a sport but a pastime.

Money would be better spent on a pack of Beagles.

[SOSL]

PN, it's pastime innit?


Rgds SOS

[Lima Juliet]

Of course its a sport; unlike the Dominos that you play in your cardigan down at the RAFA Club, PN! :ok:

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

The entire story is incorrect and utterly misleading in the extreme ... I understand this is a new Top Secret wind tunnel facility to assist in the teaching of advanced aerodynamic principles :8

http://www.ralphmaltby.com/system/assets/39/Golf_Ball_Flight_Principles.jpg

Complex stuff this :ooh:

[dragartist]

Ah Coff,
Dr Hugh Hunt used that same analogy when he lectured at Cambridge RAeS on the bouncing bomb. He was assisted by one of his female researchers/students. Sorry I took my eye off the ball so to speak so can't recall much of the theory.


On a serious note I benefited for many years from the free use of service sports facilities. Swimming pools all over the globe in the 60s, The golf course at Oakington in the 70s (all maintained on a self help basis by members) Only recently did I hear how the sand for the bunkers was diverted by my dad from the firing range.


In 2000 and something they began to charge us civilians for the use of the Gym at Wyton. I still have my card with authority to draw the keys somewhere.

[Wander00]

PN - There used to be the Per Ardua Beagles, the Cranwell pack

[Lima Juliet]

Only recently did I hear how the sand for the bunkers was diverted by my dad from the firing range.

I can remember the USAF flying in sand in a C5 for their volleyball courts into a desert air base in Saudi - the whole place was surrounded by sand. The Camel Spiders, Scorpions and Sand Vipers thought they had died and gone to heaven! :ugh:

LJ

[CoffmanStarter]

Wander00 ... I find the Labrador is better at retrieving golf balls than the Beagle :E

[Whenurhappy]

AT is fine if you are on an RAF Formed Unit. Try doing it when you are part of the so-called 'Diaspora'; moreso if you are overseas. You need to be able to hear about it (difficult if you are not on DII-F), then do the paperwork through some dismembered head in another country who requires documents to be faxed (as they haven't got access to a scanner). Then there's the issue of flight coast and T&S in transit. In my last job, I argued until I was blue in the face about this; after a while, it just fell into the 'too hard' category - especially when you are not under OPCON of one of the Services.

Not bitter - I've had my fair share over the years, but the rules need to be a little more flexible, especially if you are without PEd and TD/FD staff.

[Wander00]

ISTR that going out with the Per Ardua pack was a "place to be seen". When I was at Wyton there was an annual meet of the Fitzwilliam pack on the airfield

[BEagle]

Old Bricks, an occasional PPRuNer, used to go out with the Per Ardua pack. He told us that there were 3 options:

1. Follow the little buggers. That was quite knackering!
2. Stand at the top of a hill and watch them. That was rather more gentlemanly, but one could get rather chilly.
3. Sit in a nice warm pub and think about them.

Option 3 got his vote!

[Courtney Mil]

Greg, the Mail comments aren't immediately modded. But you may need to reload the page to see your comment. It will have been buried by many more by then though.

BEags, I love it. I'd chose a bit of 2 then fallback to 3.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have to hand the The Royal Air Force Athletes and Games Handbook published by the RAF Sports Board 1964/65.

It runs to 730 pages.

Beagling gets 3 pages. Golf 45 pages, but Dominoes, Draughts, and Darts none at all.

Model aircraft, as befits an air arm gets 4 pages. The one I like best is Small Arms. The rules specify .38 revolvers, Stem and Bren etc and quite fascinating.

[Lima Juliet]

My goodness PN, what a library you have!!! :eek:

LJ

[Wensleydale]

It seems cheap for RAF golf. I heard that they spent millions for just a bunker at Boulmer.

[Lima Juliet]

Yes, and once in even the best sandwedge couldn't entice them out! :ok:

[smujsmith]

£14K ? Trivia, wouldn't buy a mess steward these days. And certainly makes no difference to aircraft spares procurement, and the cost of training the front end of what's left of our RAF. I rather suspect that £14K would look like peanuts when compared to just one MPs expense claims, but then, in this article we are in the business of crapping on the military, not the politicary:uhoh:

Smudge:ok:

[thing]

This was pathetic, lazy journalism by the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times.

Situation normal then.

[MPN11]

The one I like best is Small Arms. The rules specify .38 revolvers, Stem and Bren etc and quite fascinating.
And the RAF Small Arms Association is/was unique in having a paid [by the RAF Sports Board] Secretary & Treasurer, as the incumbent was required to spend several weeks at Bisley for the RAF and National Championship Meetings, and other major events during the year.

Not a practical option for someone doing a Secondary Duty.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, one Flt Lt RS Hassel was on the committee. There was a lot of moaning at Lindholme where as stn nav he spent most of his time at Bisley. It wad suggested Ty to him, as a general list officer, that he should determine his priorities.

I last saw him on TV as the British Olympic shooting coach.

Priorities sorted.

[Grumpy106]

£14K; peanuts - DIO would charge us that just to fit a new light bulb. If journos want to muck-rake, have a look at how much it costs to get any works services done now that DIO run the show!

[salad-dodger]

Another thread dragged firmly into the past PN.

For what it's worth £14K for an item of sports equipment like this seems reasonable to me. As ever though, it's a perception and PR issue.

S-D

[Grumpy106]

It appears that the sim was bought as a replacement for the golf course (which has now closed) as it was too expensive to pay DIO to cut the grass and therefore not financially viable to keep it going or replace it with an outdoor driving range; still, never let the truth get in the way of a 'good story'. I expect more from the Sunday Times (but it is situation normal for the Mail).

[MPN11]

Pontius Navigator ... Bob Hassell sadly departed the fix in 2004 after an illustrious shooting career spanning 50 years. One of the 'greats' of shooting.

Others had to face those career choices too ... it's a sport that often requires large blocks of 'time off' for Olympics, Commonwealth Games, Overseas Tours and the like for those at the higher levels.

[Pontius Navigator]

S-D, sorry if I offended, but I was drawing to attention both the prominence of sport 50 years ago and the relevance of golf to sport back then, and now

Sorry again if irrelevance offends.

[Null Orifice]

Others had to face those career choices too ... it's a sport that often requires large blocks of 'time off' for Olympics, Commonwealth Games, Overseas Tours and the like for those at the higher levels.

Not forgetting the sacrifice made by other non-representative sportsmen in having to 'cover' for them where they form part of the established manning levels on units. Several times in my career I had the pleasure :rolleyes: of covering the posts of both Inter-Service and potentially-Olympic sportsmen.

[Whenurhappy]

Over 23 years ago I was selected for a national team and took almost a year 'off' from normal duties (I was U/T at the time; ultimately my career in that Branch suffered as a result). Yet, even 5 years ago, fellow officers were still sneering - as did a certain Desk Officer - with comments like 'oh, he's the guy that spends all his time off doing sport'.

This came to a head about 10 years ago on a course at AWC where a fellow student was describing a work-dodging Antipodean, who spent his 'whole time' away from work'. I realised he was describing me - clearly he'd never met me but was happy to perpetuate the myth. I disabused him of his nonsense.

Why should anyone have to apologise for being selected to represent his country, especially with the full blessing of the CoC?

[MPN11]

Over the 20 years I faced the problem, I found my CoC generally content with my 3-4 week absences. One boss required me to give up 50% of the time from my leave allowance, otherwise I simply offered to go to the back of the queue for leave bids, work over Christmas/New Year [where applicable] and things like that.

I don't recall anyone complaining about what I was doing.

[goudie]

A friend played in the RAF table tennis team for most of his service. One story he tells is of the team captain, who was a Vulcan pilot. When an inter-service competition was held at Lossie/Kinloss? he flew there in a Vulcan, competed and stayed overnight whilst on a 'Nav ex.:hmm:'!

[MPN11]

likewise, Strubby used to send a Varsity to Leuchars most weekends, on an airways cross-country for the Refresher Flying students. The back was usually full of golfers and golf clubs ;)

However, they were always home in time for the 2nd wave on Monday, an therefore didn't need time off.

Whereas I used to peak at .... umm ... about 6 weeks a year off on 'Sports Duty' in UK or overseas :eek: Sorry!

[Sandy Parts]

when my winter sports stuff started using more than 1 week a year in 'exped/sport time away from unit' I took leave instead and wrote "leave surrendered in order to attend Exercise XXX iaw JSP blah blah blah". The JSP quoted had been written exactly for such circumstances. AE Leader approved it as he knew it meant I'd get no more time away than anyone else and PEdO authorised it as I then remained covered 'on duty' for the event. Always surprised more didn't opt to do the same - cuts the resident sqn moaners off at the knees when you show them the leave app! Sadly, I think this option was withdrawn with the roll-out of JPA. Maybe it could be resurrected to level the (now virtual?) playing field. Of course, the other option is to just be jack and do as much sport time as poss :E

[MPN11]

Sandy Parts ... you hit the spot with that. Some activities HAD to be 'on duty'.

Although in theory trading Leave for 'Time Away on Duty' would have eaten my entire annual leave allowance :eek:

Bisley for Services and Nationals = 3 weeks
USA for International Service Matches = 3 weeks

Happy days back then. Life was much easier and more flexible than it seems to be these days.

[goudie]

Happy days back then.

So it would seem.

Time off for representing the RAF, Command or one's Station was a given, in my experience. Sport was a close second to chasing women and quaffing pints of ale. Getting them to merge into one activity wasn't too difficult either!:ok: I recall that at Bisley the real excitement was in tents. :E

[MPN11]

I recall that at Bisley the real excitement was in tents.
It was in-tents-ly competitive for some, but I had a permanent mobile home on site ;)