Questions about starting out

[Lenny0685]

Hey guys,
I'm looking to start my flight training next year to get my CPL and had a few quick questions, and your advice on some things.
-I have just turned 29 so by the time I get my CPL I will be about 32 (hopefully) - do you think that is too old to be starting a career in this industry considering I will be up against a lot of other pilots 10 years my junior?
-I know that getting your first job in this industry is generally your hardest one to get so once I finish my CPL I was considering looking at South East Asia to try and get a type rating for the A320 and go down the first officer pathway. Firstly, is this possible straight after you have completed your CPL and what are the chances of me getting a job in the airlines either in SE Asia or Australia if I do this?

I look forward to your guidance on the above.

Cheers.

[Left 270]

Don't let age bother you, it will be a good thing in the early stages, plenty of time to worry about that down the track. Moving north and flying charter is allot of fun (poor, hardwork and sometimes soul crushing whilst you are still looking) and I wouldn't have skipped it for the world. I did my PPL-MECIR in just over 9 months so can be done quite quickly.

[Caedus]

In the same boat as ya... I'm 30, and only have weekends for lessons with a 9-5 job. Taken me just under a year to get to RPL, so I would imagine I would be around 32/33 before I can get CPL done!

While a career change would be the ultimate goal, I just love doing this too much to be thinking about what happens after CPL. Its a bit hard now for fresh CPL pilots as many would say, but no one knows what will happen the next few years.

If you love it, just do it! :ok: Who knows where it will take you, and there's more to flying than shiny jets with the big airlines (as cool as that may be!):cool:

[hillbillybob]

I was 33 when I started training, did my ppl in 12 months (over 1/2 lessons were cancelled due to weather), flight school then closed, found another school, finished my CPL 3 years after starting, then did my ATPL theory and MECIR whilst saving some coin for the big trip north and at the age of 38 got my first job.

anything is possible

[pilotchute]

Lenny,

For all the guys over 30 on here telling you to go for it there are probably twice as many sitting silent at home wishing they didn't.

You will certainly encounter age discrimination even if you don't notice it at the time. Many operators simply don't like hiring older guys and girls because they generally stand up for themselves more and are less inclined to bend the rules. This doesn't apply to all operators as I know a couple that like the newbies to be a bit older.

Another strange phenomenon is how people get hired. It seems more like a popularity contest than a merit based recruiting system sometimes.

Want you need to do is decide what you want to get out of flying job. I firmly believe if you start over the age of thirty then cracking a "jet job" will be less likely. Not impossible but not easy.

The industry is in a down cycle now so if you finish in 2-3 years it might pick up again by then. The ultimate question is can you spend that sort of money and maybe not make it to a flying job that pays the bills?

[maxgrad]

Choose the hard road and work
Work
Get up every time you fall
Make the choice for you

[BlatantLiar]

It seems more like a popularity contest than a merit based recruiting system sometimes.

I think you'll find the two go very closely hand in hand.

[5-in-50]

Started training at 27. Finished with a CPL and Instructor Rating at 29. Now 32 with 2500hrs under my belt.

32 is not too old. Think between 2 and 5 years to reach an airline once you get your first job. That's plenty of years to get bored of a flight deck. :)

[4forward8back]

I think you'll find the two go very closely hand in hand.

Sorry, but this just isn't the case. I've worked bloody hard to get my 2000hrs, I have always done the best job for the companies I have worked for, I have gone well above and beyond the job description. Each of my previous employers have advised that should I ever wish to come back they would welcome me. I have worked and flown with RAAF and very senior QF pilots who tell me they're impressed with my work ethic, attitude and flying. They have backed those words up with references and referrals. I have even displayed one of their personal aircraft at a couple of airshows.

I avoided the sausage factories for my training, I go out of my way to fly challenging aircraft. I worked hard and did well on my exams/flight tests. I have gone bush and worked. I absolutely love the flying I get to do and bloody grateful when I get it. I feel like I have done, and continue to do 'the right things'.

I can't get steady work. These days, I generally get 5-10 hours of fill-in flying a month. Which means i've had to get a job outside of flying....which means i'm not as available for flying work...

Why can't I get work? Because I can't afford it. Not that I can't afford to live on the wages (which as we all know are pretty dismal, but doable). I can't afford to GET work.

Over the past 2 years of post MECIR job hunting I have been quoted everything from $1,000 to $15,000 for a job. For those that aren't following I would have to pay them. They have all advised that it's to cover training costs. This includes the job charging $1,000 (I have 200 hours on type) and one asking $2,200 (I have >500 hours on type).

Only one of the companies offered anything close to the award and without fail every single one wanted me to work as a contractor, no super, no tax etc... There's a discussion for another day...

All of these companies have people lined up out the door willing to pay to fly for them.

Now I look around and I just don't know where the work is going to come from. I have very little multi time, which I know is the big hurdle, but even my instructor mates can't get work and I always thought there would be instructing work around. The MECIR renewal is due in 5 weeks and I don't have the cash to cover it...

This isn't one sided, I will put my hand up as I have made bad choices along the journey, I have chased work which didn't turn out. Gone for the wrong job and made poor location/employment decisions. Leaving steady VFR work to get the MECIR done is probably the biggest cock-up.

Think between 2 and 5 years to reach an airline once you get your first job. Dreaming.

FYI - I'm 33 and have a fantastic supportive wife, but the reality of life means I may just have to turn my back on being a full time pilot. At least there's always weekend joyflights/skydiving to keep the heart happy and the hand in. I'll just have to start saving to get one of those jobs...

Sorry for the downer, it's been a couple of weeks since my last flight. I just thought I'd provide a different story. It's a very tough life, I could pick up the phone now and call up 5 mates, all of whom are out of flying work. Yes the flying is utterly fantastic, my log book is full of fantastic flights/aircraft/airstrips/people, but is it sustainable? For the lucky few, maybe... And good luck to the bastards!!

There is only one thing that will get you ahead in this industry: $$$$

[BlatantLiar]

4forward8back, you raise some valid points and your struggle sounds very unfortunate however I don't see why you quoted me there.

The statement still stands, popularity and merit do go hand in hand, obviously.
Someone who has all the great attributes desired from a pilot will be popular. They are judged favourably based on merit and subsequently will be popular.

On the flip side take some snotty nosed moron who pays to fly, pays for icus and all the expenses that the company should cover. This person is an awful pilot and socially retarded. He is neither popular nor favourable based on merit. The only reason he is there is because he contributes to the bottom line. And these are the people impeding your career.

[kingRB]

Dreaming.Unfortunately not. I know of those that were around 200 hour mark when I had close to 1000 about 3 to 4 years ago that have well overtaken me and now fly in airlines (albeit, regional). Some people can still get a dream run from the bottom of GA all the way through to airline level flying. One could argue whether they make their own luck or not. I've seen cases where some very much deserved the progression they got, and others that just left you scratching your head wondering how.

I am in a similar position to you mate, and find myself now continually questioning how much more I can keep sacrificing in life to try and keep moving forward career wise. Definitely not easy and definitely not the for the uncommitted or faint of heart.

I try to keep remembering something someone told me many many years ago: "stick at it long enough, you'll make it to where you want to be. The ones that don't make it are the ones that quit".
If I apply that rationale to a lot of pilots i've known over the last 20+ years, it seems to hold out!

[5-in-50]

KingRB: my sentiments exactly.

[4forward8back]

Blatantliar - Sorry to have mis-quoted you, I read the 'popular' in the quoted section as meaning popular to employers and therefore more likely to get work. Not as you intended it.

KingRB - Good luck to the guys and girls that get through and reach their goals. It is a great job, by far the best around and I can't hold it against those that get to a stable job. If they crack an airline gig in under 5 years, bloody good show. I wouldn't be telling a new starter to expect that kind of progression though.
I have heard similar to: "stick at it long enough, you'll make it to where you want to be. The ones that don't make it are the ones that quit". many times over the years. But I see guys around my local field, the career has cost them relationships/health/happiness, still they push on. Some of them have made $$$, but there are a few around that have stuck at it and still work as contract pilots earning just enough to cover rent. That thought terrifies me, there's a few that really should have thrown it away decades ago.

P.S. I don't want everyone to be thinking I'm a downer here, '4forward8back' doesn't refer to my career, it's how you prime a Gipsy Major.

[zappalin]

Not too late, I started flying when I was 27. Had my CPL 3 years this month and I am only about to crack 1000 hours - been a slow road, and I've been employed full time as a pilot! Personal experience may vary...

I would take a dump truck of salt with the statement "2 to 5 years to airline". There are ways and means, but saying "7-8 years ago that was the case" doesn't help now. All my mates are in the same jobs, flying the same aircraft (with a few exceptions) as they were 2 years ago. All full-time employed too.

That's not to say it won't happen, everyone seems to have that carrot dangling in front that it's about to get better. In my experience it wasn't hard to find my first and second jobs, but making the step from VFR single to anything more complex is really tough at the moment. If you can get a job, stick with it!

There are options overseas. Some are better than others. But don't pay to fly.

[neville_nobody]

I would suggest that those of you doing part time lessons ramp it up and do it full time and get it done. Not only does it make learning to fly easier it also speeds up your time into the market. 4 years to do a commercial is not a real smart way to learn to fly. You also have to get ATPL theory if you haven't already and a MECIR.

500-1000 multi engine command is what you need if you can get it somehow.

Otherwise if you can somehow jag a jet job overseas that would be the way to go.

[Caedus]

I would suggest that those of you doing part time lessons ramp it up and do it full time and get it done.

Easier said than done when you have a full time day job to pay for the wife, kid, mortgage AND the flying!:eek:

[neville_nobody]

Easier said than done when you have a full time day job to pay for the wife, kid, mortgage AND the flying

Well if that's the case quit. Your salary probably won't get any better than now for the next 10 years anyway.

[Caedus]

Well if that's the case quit. Your salary probably won't get any better than now for the next 10 years anyway.

Wow? Really? Not sure why the pessimistic view on salary, but I'm doing okay and I've already signed papers which tell me its going to BE better effective in 28 days :)

As I said on an earlier post, no one knows where this path would take us. And everyone has a different circumstance in life towards flying. We all know the industry is in a tough spot at this time, but hey, chin up and do your best eh?

I don't think just because I can't knock out CPL full time that I have to call it quits. That would be... weak :E

[Steve Zissou]

The other option that's worth considering is getting a job for an airline/charter operator etc on the ground (op's controller, loader whatever) and get yourself known. I hate this word but it is a great way to 'network' and meet people that do the hiring and firing in the industry.

You can get a steady income coming in, become a known quantity and get some flying done in your spare time.

Food for thought.

[smiling monkey]

once I finish my CPL I was considering looking at South East Asia to try and get a type rating for the A320 and go down the first officer pathway.

That's no longer an option in South East Asia as Indonesia now imposes restrictions on low time foreign pilots, and so too does Malaysia and the rest of the region, come to think of it. Foreign captains is a different story, but that doesn't help your situation I guess.

[Oracle1]

I am 43 with 10+ years experience as an AME and I am about to have a go at getting my CPL. Should have done it years ago, go for it if you don't give up you will eventually make it

[Horatio Leafblower]

I know 3 pilots who just got Jet jobs in 5 years or so from graduation.

[Bankrupt84]

Horatio, please give an example of how your friends made it to an airline in 5 years. I am very impressed.
Going on 8 years and yet to even crack a twin job yet. Out of money now to renew anything. That is really going to be the biggest indicator of how successful you can be in the industry in the current climate $.


To the original poster, best of luck.

[halas]

It probably doesn't help, but when l started out in the early eighties, there was a recession on. Things slowly improved and l happened to be at the right place at the right time, with minimum qualifications and got a bit of single time.
Having got a few hundred hours l had to get out aviation in the late eighties to pay the bills.
Then we had another recession but l managed to talk my way back into the industry prior to the '89 dispute.
Then there was a flood of airline pilots coming down the ranks and stealing jobs from the up and coming.
Was lucky enough to be in a company that was progressive enough to make me redundant as a result.
Got re-hired in a sister company as both were owned by Ansett. Much lower pay and back to pistons.
However worked my way back up in that mob and eventually (6 years) got into Ansett as an FO.
So after 16 years got the airline job l was after. Then the f*ckers closed the door.
So now in the desert building my finances as l made f*ck-all prior to moving here.
With 15 years left (if l can last that long) l think l will be able to retire reasonably comfortably but much less than if l had started in QF at 22.
So good luck.
There are many hundreds/thousands in front of you who have given up, but only a few (like you) who perserver.

halas

[DeltaT]

For all the guys over 30 on here telling you to go for it there are probably twice as many sitting silent at home wishing they didn't.
You will certainly encounter age discrimination even if you don't notice it at the time. Many operators simply don't like hiring older guys and girls because they generally stand up for themselves more and are less inclined to bend the rules. Another strange phenomenon is how people get hired. It seems more like a popularity contest than a merit based recruiting system sometimes.

:ok::D

...........

[Horatio Leafblower]

Bankrupt 84,

Call Parc Aviation. They have just hired these three guys and a few more for Jetstar Pacific as a possible antidote to the Golden Haired Cadet problem.

They are not my friends. They are ex employees who burnt a bridge when they left. If they had honoured their contactural, legal and moral obligation (4 weeks notice) when they left I would have wished them well.

[Donwoody]

Just from my experience. Worked in another industry from 1989-2009 while just doing some single engine private flying for recreation. Then at 38yo I decided to fly for a living. First job Sept09, second job March11 (studying ATPL during these two jobs), third job (jet job) in April14. I'm really glad I made the change.
It's harder to learn when you're older.
You will go backwards financially for a few years.
No regrets now and glad I did it.
Always keep an open mind, work hard, be nice to others and never ever give up.
Best of luck, you're never too old.

[50 50]

Just out of curiosity woody, how many hours had you accumulated before you got your first job?

[Donwoody]

Between 1987 and 2009 1000VFR single engine.

[Zephyr1977]

Hi,

Just go for it! Its worth it...even with all the problems in todays industry (pay 2 fly programs etc).

I was aviation enthusiastic since my early age (like all of us), but somehow ended up studying something completely different and started to work in that field.

While i was working something that i really don't like, I got my ppl at age of 23 and later on spend all my free time at local airfield (skydivers dropping).

Later on i got my FI for SEP and later (at age of 31) I got my ATPL theory with CPL IR ME.

2 months later I landed my first airline job in national flag carrier.. Well, I'm still stuck on turbo prop, but that will change soon (I hope).

In career paths there are ups and downs, but its important that trend is moving up. :)

Cheers,

Z

[ChaseIt]

Avoid cadetships, it's all about being motivated with hard work and a great work ethic! Even if you have to throw bags for a while!

[MaxFL360]

why avoid cadetships? Going north isn't the only way and if you don't take the cadet spot someone else will, plenty of qantas pilots out there that started as cadet SOs