National Defence Medal is a medal for doing nothing

[Al R]

Apparently!

It doesn't bother me either way because I no longer serve but a National Defence Medal might mean something to owners too, Bob. I wonder if members of the Armed Forces really are "unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing" - don't we value those who don't deploy and do relatively little in support roles as much as those who do deploy? Its rarity would be the same as the Jubilee medals.. but the intent behind it would be different, that's all. Does that make it any less valuable?

House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Nov 2014 (pt 0002) (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141111/debtext/141111-0002.htm)

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con):

I rise to oppose the Bill because medals mean something to those who have them. In the military they denote gallantry, operational duty, good service, or special occasions such as when Her Majesty the Queen grants a jubilee medal. For me, medals worn on the chest can rapidly sum up someone’s service. Medals mean a lot. I recall that Napoleon said, “Men will do much for a scrap of ribbon.” To the services, medals mean a lot, and the gaining of them is terribly important. Medals should not be granted for nothing, and for that reason I oppose the Bill, albeit with some reluctance.

A gallantry medal is self-explanatory, and anyone wearing one is looked on specially by his or her peers. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) has a brace of operational service medals. Those mean that someone has put his or her life in harm’s way for our country. Good or long-service medals are rewards for a serviceman or woman who has spent a long time and done very good work in the services, and they are richly deserved. Finally, special occasion medals are different, because servicemen and women do not consider them in the same category as the others.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt), who is sitting behind me, served for 12 distinguished years in the cavalry—

Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Undistinguished by a medal.

Bob Stewart: As he says, undistinguished by a medal. He has told me that he does not expect or want a medal; he thinks it wrong for him to have a medal for not having served operational duty in his time.

The soldiers, sailors and airmen of our armed forces wear a uniform and they are proud of that, but do we automatically put a medal on a uniform when we issue it? No. Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing. That is the truth, and I oppose the national defence medal on those grounds.

I shall not call for a Division on this matter because my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) is a friend, and I understand his motives and wishes. It is Armistice day. However, I do want to register the fact that the national defence medal is not necessarily something that the armed forces or people who have served in them wish to have put on their chests without earning it.

[Wrathmonk]

Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing

So I guess that includes the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal then....

[Pontius Navigator]

They also serve who only stand and wait.

It could be said that the wartime National Defence Medal was of the same ilk.

Can it be said of any Serviceman that they did not support the frontline?

A 5-year qualification, like the Jubilee medals might be appropriate as it would differentiate from National Service.

Where someone qualified for a campaign medal but served less than 5 years, they too should qualify.

Certainly those with a chest full would not see any need, but what of the Cold War warriors? For instance an air miss with a May, or sitting in a Cb bro g struck by lightning over an hour was a lot more dangerous than sitting in the Mess at ASI.

[MPN11]

Surely the LSGC is an award for "not doing nothing naughty" (or at least being found out) ;)

As to the NDM, I'm not sure why a medal should be awarded gratis for just joining up. I therefore have to agree with Bob Stewart, despite the fact that I would like some pretty medals :)

[NutLoose]

Its a bit like the Veterans badge, never bothered with that and wouldn't with this either.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, I have a trinket box full of pins or badges including RAFA. Each one means something to someone and shows affinity.

You, in your suit without a badge would be AN Other.

We have someone coming to give a talk on the RAFBF; I shall wear my veterans badge and appropriate tie.

On ties, two of us, ex-12, wore our sqn tie. A former sqn cdr, an Air Cmdr of a younger age did not recognise it :(

[Wander00]

This thread triggered a memory of Maj Bob Pomeroy, the USAF lecturer in the War Studies Dept at the Towers in the 60s, who had the usual (American) chest full of medals. In his cups after a dining in he would point to one medal: "That was for chasing girls", then point to another: "That was for catching them". Lovely guy, sadly killed during the Vietnam War

[Melchett01]

Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing. That is the truth, and I oppose the national defence medal on those grounds.

And I wonder just how many, and of what rank range, made up that consultation. Why does the cynic in me always seem to think that those implacably opposed to new medals being issued are either long retired VSOs who wouldn't qualify and have precious little inkling of what life in the a Forces is actually like now, or are individuals that already have quite a few and don't want the cost of getting them re- mounted?

I mean, after almost 13 years of involvement in Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely we are now passed the willy-waving of you've only earned a medal if you have half a dozen contacts before lunch and then have to exfil on foot, under fire, without food or water for 10 days before sleeping in a hole in the ground to earn so much as a certificate of attendance let alone a medal???

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We criticise the US but we have also got it wrong. If memory serves, the War Medal during WW2 was for something like 28 days service in the Forces and the Defence Medal was for longer periods of 'non-combat' for want of a better phrase service over a longer period (3 years?). So why, if we have had medals with those criteria in the past, can we not do something similar now? How about a hybrid of the 2 whereby you ensure there is a degree of having earned it by setting the bar suitably high such as after first productive tour ? That way you recognise actual service without individuals pulling a fast one and qualifying for it half way through basic training.

[Yellow Sun]

The first time I saw a medal of this ilk was on a visit to the USAF Academy in the '60s. I noticed that the cadets and staff were wearing the same medal ribbon. On enquiring as to its significance I was informed that, 1965 had been declared "National Defense Year" and all members of the armed forces serving in that year had been awarded the medal.

I later learned that it was more commonly referred to as " Alive in '65". Says it all really.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

YS, I don't know any detail on US awards or the rigor required to qualify, but I think they have a ribbon when a unit wins a citation. That covers the "this OBE is for all of you and the hard work you have put in" but I am the one who gets to wear it.

[MPN11]

When I did the International Air Cadet Exchange in 63 (with C4 and others) I was accommodated by the family of an 18-yo CAP Cadet Colonel with an impressive chest (of medals). My trembling pointing fingers asked what they were for ... She explained "this is for the basic exam, this is for the intermediate exam, this is for the advanced exam ... And this is for passing all 3 exams." At this point I realised that the system was VERY silly, and concentrated on her chest instead.

[Melchett01]

I later learned that it was more commonly referred to as " Alive in '65". Says it all really.

She explained "this is for the basic exam, this is for the intermediate exam, this is for the advanced exam ... And this is for passing all 3 exams." At this point I realised that the system was VERY silly, and concentrated on her chest instead.

Exactly why I think there is merit in the NDM but with the bar set at a suitably high level such as end of first tour when you are both qualified and have actually made a contribution rather than just turning up to trg.

But importantly, what was her chest like??

[Al R]

If MPN were to have his way (by the sounds of it), decorated.

[VinRouge]

Problem with the current medals qualification system means that for some of the smaller more limited ops, the only people who qualify are the pjhq/command blunties who seem to pitch up for the qualification period plus a day before going home, or those who get in the way by refusing to repay laundry costs for aircrew on ops.

Those "doing the job", Ie, directly providing air effect, don't get a look in.

It's also interesting to see the influence of the army who seem to get op allowance for every op they are involved in, yet other shooty AORs don't get considered when it's a primarily air campaign.

[NutLoose]

The one I thought should have been for all was the Silver Jubilee one, not the let's hold a raffle for it...


PN I could always wear my GSM, not that I would :)

[Melchett01]

You can't blame the Army for looking after their own Vin Rouge. Having done countless Joint jobs over the years, I've seen at first hand how the Army will work the system to ensure their troops are appropriately acknowledged, whilst the RAF seems to regard the whole issue of medals, awards and op allowances as being a nuisance that takes up valuable time that could be better used drinking.

I remember putting my FS in for an award for the sheer effort he put into being an outstanding example in his primary duties; months later a MBE duly turned up. It was the list that CAS at the time commented that whilst it was great that RAF personnel were getting involved in the community, why was there only one citation for operational excellence and commitment - my FS's award.

[Tankertrashnav]

but I think they have a ribbon when a unit wins a citation.

The Glosters were awarded a US Presidential Unit Citation for their action at the Imjin River in Korea. It was worn as a blue rectangular patch at the top of the sleeve, and the practice continued until The Glosters were absorbed into The Rifles a few years ago.

[Pontius Navigator]

Leggett, well done. Too many recs got diverted as you say.

Nutty, a GSM would be OTT but would certainly work :)

No, the appropriate symbol is the best for the occasion. The Pussers suitcase was instantly recognizable as a Angelo on shore leave and perfect for hitch hiking.

[NutLoose]

If you watch the Band of Brothers they get one.

[Al R]

Melchett,

Ref army comparison, do you think there has been some meritocracy inspired snobbery about it? You know, almost a ".. we're above that kind of self grandiosing adornment", whereas, with the army, they're a lot less hung up about it?

A NDM would allow someone to reflect with pride and not feel so dislocated after service - in itself important when transitioning to civvy street. I never wore mine for ages after I left, until I eventually reflected that I was showing respect for my background and for those with whom I served, by occasionally dusting them off.

Just my way of looking at it.

[MPN11]

melchett01 ... Without wishing to trivialise the thread, she had a chest that was able to carry 3-4 rows of 'medal' ribbons.

And, no, I didn't :uhoh:

[Melchett01]

Al,

I just don't know, you may well be right. As my old colonel used to remind me, the Army equips its men, the RAF mans its equipment. I just think that the Army is a lot better at looking after its people than we are, and the issue of honours and awards is but one manifestation of that.

Alternatively, when you look at the various lists, the RAF awards often seem to be dominated by the upper levels in both the officer and SNCO cadres unlike the Army where you see a decent sprinkling of awards and MBEs right the way across the ranks. Maybe the RAF takes the view that until you have some time in and reached a senior level you haven't achieved sufficiently to be recognised. Maybe there's someone keeping score in Manning and once you hit a cumulative number of points you get your gong? "We couldn't possibly give Bloggs an award, he's an absolute muppet - last year must have been a fluke!"

Who knows, as with many areas of RAF life, there is little transparency in the logic or thinking making it very difficult to assess.

[MPN11]

I think we all know that Honours and Awards is a complex, convoluted and ultimately potentially unfair system. From the quality of the initial write-up, through the attitudes/enthusiasm of the command chain, to quotas. Some you win and some you lose, and I cannot envisage any way around that.

MPN11
(MBE failed and still bling-free)

[Melchett01]

MPN11,

I agree entirely and I'm not saying the other Services are perfect, far from it. But from my perspective on how the RAF does it, you hit the nail squarely on the head with the attitudes/enthusiasm of the command chain.

Melchett
(25m breaststroke)

[goudie]

Speaking of medals....



QazSl2-hLuM

[Sloppy Link]

It should be a single medal awarded at 5 years followed by a bar for every subsequent 5 years with a rosette worn when the ribbon alone is showing. That should show a maximum of 8 bars, do-able with the standard ribbon length, the rosettes change to gold every 4th one. This should account for the individuals out there that manage to put up with the Armed Forces from the age of 18 to 60. It should replace the QVRSM but not the LS&GC as this is still a matter of enormous pride to some and equally so to some that don't have it. You note that I suggest that reservists as well as full time qualify for the same medal, this is not a slip, remember, the true worth of any medal is only known by the wearer.

[smujsmith]

Interesting concept this. From my own experience, I have a couple of medals from GW1 that are far more decorative than the others I obtained through my time in the RAF? Funny thing is, the freedom of Kuwait medal, awarded by the Kuwaiti's and the other one, from the Saudi's, are not permitted to be worn on your uniform (they do look good on my pyjama's though). I understand that it's hardly a problem these days, as most GW1 vets are ex, but, Imagine that Afghanistan awarded a medal for service in that theatre, and the lads were told they couldn't wear it, while they and others who had never been near a combat zone, could wear the proposed National Service Medal. I rather suspect that my NSM was the bloody uniform I wore for 30 years, and was proud to do so. That's what made me feel part of the service, and also that I had something in common with my fellow servicemen, whatever their trade or experience. When politicians get involved like "good old Bob has", there's always a reason, and self interest usually covers it.

Smudge:ok:

[ian16th]

It should be a single medal awarded at 5 years followed by a bar for every subsequent 5 years with a rosette worn when the ribbon alone is showing.

Until 1951, we had Good Conduct Stripes for exactly this!

Worn on the left cuff.

[BBadanov]

NutLoose: The one I thought should have been for all was the Silver Jubilee one, not the let's hold a raffle for it...


I believe that on one FJ sqn, they were allocated two Silver Jubilee medals. The OC nabbed one, the other was raffled in the aircrew crewroom...
(Several members here missed out - but they know who won it!!)

[BEagle]

smujsmith wrote: Funny thing is, the freedom of Kuwait medal, awarded by the Kuwaiti's and the other one, from the Saudi's, are not permitted to be worn on your uniform (they do look good on my pyjama's though).

At the last service dinner I attended, I was pleased to note a few people wearing both miniatures on their mess kit.....:ok:

Some apostrophic abuse there, smuj.....:= What are 'pyjamas', by the way?

[Melchett01]

Pyjamas - what you hang your miniatures on when not in Mess kit. That and the item of clothing worn to breakfast when you have visitors.

I also believe they are the item of clothing Christopher Plummer refused to wear when handed a set by Suzannah York. And quite right too :ok:

[NutLoose]

I believe that on one FJ sqn, they were allocated two Silver Jubilee medals. The OC nabbed one, the other was raffled in the aircrew crewroom...
(Several members here missed out - but they know who won it!!)

Oddly enough when I got stuck on a Jag Sqn and we had a Sqn photo taken in No 1's, bar the old folks medal (LSGC) I was about the only one to have one and that being my lowly GSM. Every man and his dog had them at Odiham, at Bruggen a medal was a rarity.

[Whenurhappy]

The Kiwis instituted a Defence Service Medal a couple of years back, with clasps for Regular, Reserve and National Service, err, service. The qualifying period is, I believe, only three years. However, when I last ran into an RNZAF chap in Service Dress, his uniform was covered in little badges and trinkets; sadly they've moved away from the British minimalist approach.

[Nugget90]

I write as one who took pride in serving in the RAF for 19 years yet feels unrecognised at Remembrance Day church services and parades because I have no medal to indicate that I, too, was the Service, which was in the 1960s and 70s. There was huge disappointment in 1977 when we learnt that a Queen's Silver Jubilee Medal was going to be awarded to the armed services - but then, as has been mentioned elsewhere, in the event very few were distributed - quite unlike when the subsequent Gold and Diamond Jubilee medals were struck.

There is also no possibility either (at present, although this may change) that I could qualify for a Long Service medal, which I would be absolutely delighted to receive if regular officers were to qualify and the qualification were to be made retrospective.

The NDM, as I understand is proposed, would if approved be made available to those who have served for a defined period in the armed services, just as in Australia and New Zealand, without any consideration of 'risk and rigour' such as form a prerequisite for any campaign medals. This approach should address the observations made by Col Bob Stewart MP.

It may be difficult for any reader who has even one medal to understand the continuing disappointment felt by those of us whose service has not received medallic recognition. I hope that something positive will come out of the Second Reading of the NDM Bill on the 5th of December for the sake of many thousands who would appreciate such a tangible and visual gesture of thanks from HMG for service rendered.

[MPN11]

I console myself by wearing my cute little "Veterans Badge" :rolleyes:

I also console myself by realising that my 30 years non-medallic service is a damned sight better than being exposed to the "hazard and rigour" that so many generations have experienced, and is reflected in their medals.

I also have no need for a 'medal for doing nothing special, except for being paid', nor an officer's LS&GC that shows I have never been court martialled or cashiered.

[Tourist]

As a wise man once said "once everyone is special, nobody is......."

[Shack37]

Posted by Nutloose

Oddly enough when I got stuck on a Jag Sqn and we had a Sqn photo taken in No1's, bar the old folks medal (LSGC) I was about the only one to have one and that being my lowly GSM. Every man and his dog had them at Odiham, at Bruggen a medal was a rarity.

Odd you should describe your GSM as lowly (I have one from Aden and an unclaimed bar for NI) because I too am surprised to see it take precedence over other campaign medals worn by guys for service in Iraq/Afghanistan. In my case it was for "being there" 1966/1967. Certainly it was merited for others who saw some nastiness, army and RAF Regt, whereas I only left the safety of K´sar for luxurious dets such as Sharjah and Majunga.

Posted by TTN
The Glosters were awarded a US Presidential Unit Citation for their action at the Imjin River in Korea. It was worn as a blue rectangular patch at the top of the sleeve, and the practice continued until The Glosters were absorbed into The Rifles a few years ago.

Didn´t they also wear two hatbadges on their berets, one front and one at the back for that same action?

[Pontius Navigator]

My risk and rigour was marked by a very pleasant sojourn in a tropical Sun, bathing in a crystal clear lagoon or sipping Tiger beer by the pool.

The risk was greater from some obscure tropical disease in an hotel in Georgetown than the putative enemy. In contrast anyone deployed to AFG deserved a DCM or equivalent.

[jonw66]

Pontius my Bosnia medal was similarly earned in a 5 star hotel in Italy on rates NATO medal though not sure it was to be worn on uniform.
Nijmegen medal as a spacy was earned

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

I'm a civilian, but I do hope you won't mind if I comment.

One kind of medal I feel we lack in the UK is something like the US's Purple Heart.

For example, as I understand it, in the recent Afghanistan action it was entirely possible for a soldier of, say, 19 to be sent into theatre on his/her first deployment on day one. On day twelve he/she has both legs blown off. By day 19, he/she might be back in Selly Oak and not even entitled to a campaign medal because he/she wasn't in the war zone for the requisite 28 days! Two or three months later he/she is out of the Army and looking forward to a life of disablement and nothing to show for his/her service.

Surely this is unfair. If someone has to go through the rest of his/her life with such a souvenir of the armed services and of war service, surely some recognition of his/her sacrifice is needed.

Regards,

BP.

[NutLoose]

Well said BP

[MPN11]

Am I not right in thinking that wounded/KiA receive the campaign medal regardless of time served?

[izod tester]

The Gloucestershire Regiment was awarded honour of wearing 2 hat badges for their action during the Battle of Alexandria in 1801. Whilst engaged with French infantry to their front and flanks whilst deployed in line, they were charged by French Cavalry from the rear. The rear rank was ordered to about face and inflicted heavy casualties on the French cavalry with a volley of musket fire causing them to withdraw.

[Tankertrashnav]

Correct, MPN, as a general rule, any length of service in theatre which is curtailed by death or disability due to service will be sufficient to qualify for the relevant British campaign medal.

With regards to a Purple Star equivalent, we did of course have wound stripes in the First World War, and these were re-introduced in 1944 in the form of a cloth badge worn on the battledress. As far as I am aware they have not been issued since WW2, certainly not for recent conflicts.

[Warmtoast]

As my only medal is the GSM with clasp Malaya for my service in the Far East in 1956-58. Not sure why I got it as the nearest I came to any fighting was as a pax in a 205/209 Sqn Sunderland on a night Firedog mission that dropped some bombs on communists in the Malayan jungle, so I've read this thread with interest.

Anyway the reason for commenting is that there is an article in today's Sunday Times about a book written by an American general (Daniel Bolger) that criticises the current head of the British Army, General Sir Nick Carter. In the article there is a fascinating paragraph relevant to the award of medals which states:

"...During his time commanding troops in Helmand and Kandahar, Carter [General Sir Nick Carter current chief of the general staff] proposed a new medal be awarded for avoiding the use of deadly force, which a NATO spokesman described as “an act of discipline and courage not much different than those seen in combat actions”. The proposal was shelved..."

[Sloppy Link]

Shack,
"Odd you should describe your GSM as lowly (I have one from Aden and an unclaimed bar for NI) because I too am surprised to see it take precedence over other campaign medals worn by guys for service in Iraq/Afghanistan."

Wrong, campaign medals are worn in order of awarded date.

SL

[Shack37]

Izod tester and Sloppy Link.

Thanks to both, I stand corrected.

[Davef68]

Is a medal for military service any worse than a medal awarded for someone else's longevity which just depend on serving at a particular date (the various Jubillee medals)?

[cynicalint]

Those who suggest this would be a medal for nothing miss the point. The individual has volunteered for service, undergone rigorous initial and professional training and have placed themselves in a position where they could be placed potential danger. Whether they face enemy fire or not is irrelevant, as they have been prepared to do so and should receive national recognition of their service to the country. This does not detract from the value of an Operational Service Medal, which is over and above the requirements for a National Defence Medal.

[PapaDolmio]

After giving the matter some thought I'm not sure where I stand on this. Initially I was not in favour however when you think back life in the Cold War was, for some, not without 'risk and rigour'. We certainly suffered our fair share of fatalities through accidents, flying and otherwise either during exercises or even normal day to day ops. Certainly some of the more dangerous jobs and uncomfortable times I've had were not in Operational theatres but on exercise in Germany and UK. Coupled with the threat (real or imagined) of IRA terrorism it wasn't the easy life. I'm sure it was the same in the RN and Army too.

I can't say I'm particularly fussed either way as I've got enough tin to be happy with but I can understand why some would.

[Finningley Boy]

Speaking as one of those who would be eligible I think its a nice idea and as has been pointed out, perhaps, yes for operational aircrew or others who's very bread and butter duties put them in harms way as a matter of routine. I might kick off an argument here and make no excuses for myself, but as a former ASOP I don't think even a tour in Belize quite cuts the mustard expect in exceptional circumstances, towit, the Saturday evening in Belize when hung over as a Parrot I wandered over to the Naafi to get something to eat, eventually, and something to drink (tonic water or something like that) I picked the night that 40 Commando were having their farewell bash and as always, there was the odd one holding a party at the Bar all on their todd. I stood next to one who became quite upset "because the crab wouldn't help him down a whole bottle of rum" so despite my very fragile state I spared his feelings and obligingly gulped down half a bottle of rum with lashings of lemonade. And for managing that without chucking up my load and maintaining good public relations between the R.A.F. and the Bootnecks I feel I deserve some form of recognition.:ok:

FB:)

[Lima Juliet]

PapaDolimio

I agree with your post. There are many that do lots to support ops and never sit the right side of a line to qualify or don't do exactly the right number of consecutive nights. I can remember an SF herc mate didn't get his GW1 gong as he didn't stay long enough in country to qualify - the fact that he had been dropping into various TLZs made no difference (but he did have a chest of tin from other ops where he did qualify).

As for affordability? Why not make people eligible for the National Defence Medal as those that have retired and that they may purchase and wear them? That way, they will have a piece of tin to wear at War Memorials and not feel lost out?

I do feel for the Cold War guys that didn't get anything. They saw some pretty hairy times and kept us all safe.

Like you I have quite a few bits of tin, but I don't begrudge others and I don't think it will 'devalue' mine.

LJ :ok:

[jonw66]

Finningley boy you are quite right think my Northern Ireland medal was for Friday nights in the ally pally most dangerous thing I ever did

[Finningley Boy]

Indeed jonw66,

The state I was in at the time, when the already sozzled Bootneck reached out in hail fellow well met fashion and slurred come over 'ere mate, we'll 'ave this together, and produced about a litre size bottle of white rum I at first declined the offer while my feet froze with terror and my new found buddy said "you're a right effin' Bar Steward int ya, at which point, with lots of noisy Marines jammed into the place, I duly reconsidered, well perhaps if you could pour me some in this, offered a papercup to go or whatever, but that didn't suit either. Still can't imagine how I got away with it, there's a God somewhere I suppose.;)

FB:)

[jonw66]

Happy days

[1.3VStall]

I did nearly 28 years in light blue, during which the RAF was involved in two conflicts: Falklands and GW1. For both I was serving in London at the MoD as a "Whitehall Warrior". Result: bare-chested No1.

Do I care? No!

Would I wear a "National Defence/Cold War Medal"? Not sure.

[Tankertrashnav]

As has been mentioned, there are a few impressive groups of medals around these days, notably in the rotary world, and of course in the Royal Marines and special forces.

However I think even the most decorated of those guys have got a way to go before they catch up with this bloke. He was notoriously parsimonious, so I imagine he moaned every time he got a new medal and had to get them all remounted! This lot are charging £45 for just the ribbons!

The Ribbon Shop - Medal Ribbons Set - King George VI (http://www.ribbon-shop.co.uk/SETS/Monty.html)

(The link title is confusing, it's not the king!)

[ShotOne]

It's not a new debate; most veterans of the Napoleonic Wars including those who fought all through the Iberian Peninsula and France went home bare chested. But the lowliest drummer or clerk serving at Waterloo was awarded a medal.

[Regie Mental]

This thread reminded me of a passage in Johnnie Johnson's book 'The story of air fighting'. After visiting the Israeli Air Force he's being driven back to the airport by the aide de camp:

I checked and rechecked the various incidents of the last few days and finally asked him, 'Do your pilots get decorations for outstanding flying?'

'What do you mean?'

'Well,' I replied, 'take the colonel who destroyed six MiGs last June. In the Royal Air Force he would have got the Distinguished Flying Cross or maybe even the Distinguished Service Order, and in the USAF he probably would have got the Silver Star. What did he get from your Air Force?'

'Nothing. We don't get decorations for doing our job.'

[Martin the Martian]

Except, of course, they do.

Israeli military decorations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military_decorations)

[charliegolf]

As has been mentioned, there are a few impressive groups of medals around these days, notably in the rotary world, and of course in the Royal Marines and special forces.

However I think even the most decorated of those guys have got a way to go before they catch up with this bloke. He was notoriously parsimonious, so I imagine he moaned every time he got a new medal and had to get them all remounted! This lot are charging £45 for just the ribbons!

The Ribbon Shop - Medal Ribbons Set - King George VI

(The link title is confusing, it's not the king!)

I am on a par with Bernie, save for all those before his GSM; and all those after. Me n Monty eh? Who'da thought it.

On thread, rightly or wrongly, I never had my GSM mounted when I was in, so am never likely to wear it in civvies. As for the proposed one- I survived the cold war having been 'recognised' for 2 tours in NI, so might feel a fraud if I were considered eligible. But I see the counter argument too.

CG

[Tankertrashnav]

I am on a par with Bernie, save for all those before his GSM; and all those after. Me n Monty eh? Who'da thought it.

Apparently Monty was once inspecting a parade, and paused in front of a man who was wearing a solitary ribbon, that of the Territorial Efficiency Medal. The great man spoke,

"Do you know, you are the only man on this parade who has a medal which I don't have!"

[huge72]

I have followed this campaign on the NDM website for some years with interest. Like many on this site I fully understand where they are coming from. I retired after 38years with some 8 medals and 3 extra bars some of which I felt were earned and some which came from just being in, yet it could just as easily been none as I had no real control over where I served. Some 4 years later I still await a testimonial or even a thank you for my service in this JPA era. The argument put forward by the no camp has always been a lack of risk and rigor, yet if you ask the cold war warriors they will tell you of the risk they took, or the nuclear test veterans and each and everyone of us during the IRA years, wherever we served. Cost has also been put forward as a factor, yet as has been pointed out the jubilee medals of recent years have just about been universal at a relatively low cost, a fraction of the estimate that MOD are quoting for the NDM. So I support this campaign for all who have bare chests, why shouldn't they stand proud with a tangible thank you, well deserved. As the veterans badge doesn't cut it!

[Davef68]

The argument put forward by the no camp has always been a lack of risk and rigor, yet if you ask the cold war warriors they will tell you of the risk they took, or the nuclear test veterans and each and everyone of us during the IRA years, wherever we served.

There is a reasoned argument that everyone who joins the Armed Forces is saying they are prepared to put themselves in harms way and to lay down their life if required.

The concept of a medal that recognises that is surely not a 'medal for doing nothing'. Doing nothing is walking passed the recruitment office and going to the pub!

[jonw66]

Recruitment sergeant drank in local pub
so no getting away from it

[cynicalint]

Recruitment sergeant drank in local pub
so no getting away from it


You are either a Troll, incredibly naïve, or so old that your memories of recruitment techniques are so out of date you should have been dead for over 100 years.

[jonw66]

None of the above he was the local CIO Sergeant but happened to live out with the barmaid at my local public house
All paperwork and medicals had been done so he rang work to say someone had dropped out of the next intake are you available to go in next week.
He picked me up to go do the final paperwork and i was on my way.
Apologies it was late and I was using my tablet.

[Tankertrashnav]

There are some member's here who know all about punctuation key's and use them on all occasion's. They would'n't like Jon's' post either, but they might think some apostrophe's had been left out of your's.

;)

[HTB]

Letter in the Daily Bellylaugh acouple of months back:


SIR – I support Cambridge City Council’s decision to remove apostrophes from street signs.

As a teacher, I notice that some children cant put them in the proper place. Others dont use them at all.

Its my opinion that they shouldnt have been included in the English language in the first place.

Furthermore, punctuation is a hindrance to a childs ability to write.Commas semi colons hyphens speech marks where does it end a childs creativityshould be free of the burden of punctuation speling allso neads too be delt wiv i prepoze that orll speling rools shud be remuved our kids wud hav a briter fucha and it wud put the grate bak into britten.

Mister B

[The Oberon]

Smith where Jones had had had had had had had had had had had the teachers approval.

[Tankertrashnav]

No punctuation key's?

Jon, I had to read that 3 time's to make sense of it and no idea if I understood what you mean't to say.

P-N - I have amended your post to show how some on here (no names!) might have posted it.

Your version is, of course, perfectly correct. :ok:

[FantomZorbin]

Oh! for Victor Borge and his phonetic punctuation :D

[Finningley Boy]

[QUOTE]I see the correction's[QUOTE]

See the correction's what?

FB:)

[smujsmith]

Beags (if I dare be so familiar) #30,

Nice to know that the miniatures are allowed on mess kit these days. It's obviously the correct way to go. As for my reference to sleeping apparel, I apologise for the foul abuse of the apostrophe, of course, we of the lower decks sometimes struggle with all kinds of fee :ugh:

Stay well

Smudge:ok:

[Shack37]

I understood Jon´s post perfectly but then I´m only 70.

This one puzzled me though.

You are either a Troll, incredibly naïve, or so old that your memories of
recruitment techniques are so out of date you should have been dead for over 100 years

[jonw66]

Shack I have edited it so it looks a lot better now, it was not quite so pretty last night.
I think I have still missed a comma but hey ho.
I have learned not to get involved late at night, oh dear.
With apogolies for spelling.
Sleep well chaps.:)

[Pontius Navigator]

Jon, thank you for that. Now all is clear, and I confess my previous interpretation was wrong.

[Pontius Navigator]

Question, if a NDM was approved and a proof copy minted but no medals issued, would you buy your own?

I know those who are indifferent, opposed, or already have a cheerful would say NO.

What do those in favour think if it was a question of buy your own? Could buy your own be extended to the QSJM?

[MPN11]

P N ... whilst not a proponent of the NDM, if one was instituted [but not issued to me, as an old-timer] I suspect I would buy one [if permitted]. I would take the same line over the Officers' LS&GC, as it seems not to be issued retrospectively. And indeed the QSJM, especially as the distribution of that was a nonsense!

Why? Well, if everyone else serving is getting them, why shouldn't I have something comparable to wear to reflect MY 30 years in a blue suit?

[BEagle]

'Buy your own' for the QJSM would at least go some way to redressing the parsimonious way it was issued and the ill-feeling which that caused. Only 3% of Armed Forces personnel received the medal.... Qualifying criteria should be simple enough - to have served for 5 years in the first 25 years of HM's reign and to have been serving on the date of Her Silver Jubilee.

'Buy your own' NDM? A somewhat different matter. What are the intended qualifying criteria?

[teeteringhead]

Sat next to a retired AVM at a Dinner recently - in Mess Kit. He had -IIRC - 38 years service and not even a SomethingBE to show for it.

Not aircrew, so nowt at all on his No 5 lapels - looked odd in the company; he was about the only medal-less one. How times have changed.......

[Skeleton]

I joined a year after the Silver Jubilee fiasco and people were still irritated. Move to the Golden Jubilee medal and people were moaning 5 years was to short a qualification period!

I was lead to believe the LS@GC medal was not automatically issued and that a board of Officers approved there issue. I certainly know of three people who didn't get it at there 16 year point, and they all had clean, no charges records. I got charged when I was 17 for splashing an Officer (yes i will come clean, it was deliberate) when i went through a puddle on my bike but i got mine :)

[Madbob]

PN


WRT your last post I think I might be prepared to buy a NDM if one was created but not issued. As one who joined up in 1979 and served 10 years I missed out on the Siver Jubillee and the Gold Jubilee medals, didn't ever serve in NI, my time in ASC and FI happened only after hostilities were over, I jumped ship before GW1 so didn't qualify for any award, but still believe I gave valuable service to the crown.


That is not to say that I, or many others in the same period, was always out of harm's way, as the Cold War was quite real and taken very seriously - RAFG was considered front-line then and one worked hard, though we played hard too. Quite a few I knew are dead through flying accidents and the course ahead of me at BFTS have lost 4 of their number in subsequent years and the course behind lost 1 killed......and that happened on the course at Linton in Jan 1981.


The Veteran's Badge isn't quite the same thing and a medal to recognise say > 5 years' full-time service to HM's armed services would I think be appropriate, provided the recipient served and received an honourable discharge. If one's exit was via a Court Martial or in similar disgrace then I think award of an NDM should be withheld, but that would only apply to a very small minority.


I had the privilege to be a wreath layer at my local church on Remembrance Sunday on behalf of the PCC. Of course I wore my poppy with pride but would have also been proud to have been wearing a NDM (or equivalent) to have had some outward sign of my own past service....


Just my own two penny-worth.


MB

[MPN11]

'Buy your own' NDM? A somewhat different matter. What are the intended qualifying criteria?
There seems a thread of opinion implying '5 years' - which seems a bit short to me.

When discussing this with the OH [she only served 25 years], she suggested "having completed enough service to be eligible for a pension". We didn't pursue the conversation beyond that, but at first glance it seems a more rigorous criterion. Or is that too harsh?

Are they any other criteria, beyond just a 'few' years service, that would make sense?

[NutLoose]

There seems a thread of opinion implying '5 years' - which seems a bit short to me.


Surely the time period should reflect the minimum service period of the time, so if as in my time I think it was 6 years, 9 years, 12 years and 22 years, then the qualifying period should be set at 6 years, I.e completing a full minimum contracted period of the time and not PVR'ing etc

[Wensleydale]

Next, people will be suggesting a series of bars to show length of service (perhaps subconsciously demonstrating the number of bars that were "propped up" during the service period).

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank you for your replies Gentlemen. Reading Hansard, it looks as if Service will count as it mentions National Service.

Second reading of the Bill will be 5 Dec but will it run out of time?

The LS&GC medal would seem different as old hairless like me sporting a retrospective medal could irritate long serving ORs.

[NutLoose]

Home - Campaign News (http://nationaldefencemedal.webs.com/)

[Skeleton]

Lets not go down the American route of adding stripes for the amount of service you have please.

[teeteringhead]

The Cadet Forces Medal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_Forces_Medal) is issued to uniformed adult volunteers supporting ACF, ATC, SCC and CCF.

Initial award is after 12 years continuous service, with subsequent bars every 6 years, so after 18, 24, 30 etc. So maybe that's a good starting point??

This is what it looks like:

http://www.servicecomm.co.uk/media/image/products/m_4bf50d550c364.jpg

[Union Jack]

Let's not go down the American route of adding stripes for the amount of service you have please. - Skeleton

As the Royal Navy has been doing since the mid 19th century for good conduct, and Skeleton's navy has been doing for long service and good conduct for some 100 years, although the RAN now awards them for long service alone....:hmm:

Jack

[Melchett01]

When discussing this with the OH [she only served 25 years], she suggested "having completed enough service to be eligible for a pension". We didn't pursue the conversation beyond that, but at first glance it seems a more rigorous criterion. Or is that too harsh?

If you went down the route of tying any NDM to pensionable service periods, then given the length of time required to get a pension, 16 years in the case of AFPS75, and the length of time to qualify for the LS&GC, I think all that would do is lead to the introduction of the LS&GC across the board and you wouldn't therefore see a separate NDM. In effect, the LS&GC would become the NDM in the eyes on many, especially the bean counters who wouldn't have to find the money for the NDM.

Plus given the pride many recipients attach to their LS&GC, I can see some bring disappointed their award has lost it's status as it becomes a catch all medal. As such I think separate qualifying periods that wouldn't allow for the 2 awards to be combined.

[salad-dodger]

When discussing this with the OH [she only served 25 years], she suggested "having completed enough service to be eligible for a pension".
Isn't it just two years to be eligible for a service pension?

S-D

[airborne_artist]

And what to do about TA or Reserve service?

There are plenty of serving and former TA soldiers (plus RNR and RAF Reserve) who have served sandy and/or rocky side, many doing more than one tour.

[MPN11]

Surely the Reserves have their own 'endurance medal' already?

Content with NutLoose's suggestion of 6 years ... That makes enough sense for me!

[charliegolf]

Quote:
When discussing this with the OH [she only served 25 years], she suggested "having completed enough service to be eligible for a pension".
Isn't it just two years to be eligible for a service pension?

S-D

Yep.

CG

[ian16th]

Isn't it just two years to be eligible for a service pension?It has varied over the years.

In my time, OR's had to serve 22 years for a pension. My, I did 13 and got zilch.

[ian16th]

Skeleton

Lets not go down the American route of adding stripes for the amount of service you have please.

See my earlier post.

We did this until 1951. A stripe every 5 years.

[Tankertrashnav]

As did the British Army until quite recently (1980s?) They were only worn by those who had not achieved NCO rank.

2 years for a pension? When did that happen?

[Mahogany_Bomber]

AFPS75, 2 years minimum service for a preserved pension. As ever, I standby to be corrected.

[salad-dodger]

2 years for a pension? When did that happen?
Well i joined in 83, so was on AFPS75 and it applied then.

S-D

[NutLoose]

In my time, OR's had to serve 22 years for a pension. My, I did 13 and got zilch.

Ian,

You might find you may well be entitled to one as well as a gratuity payment, I would ask. It was 22 when I was in for an instant pension, however my 15 odd years generates one at the age of 55 or 60? Not a lot, but better in my pocket than theirs.

[Shack37]

You might find you may well be entitled to one as well as a gratuity payment,
I would ask. It was 22 when I was in for an instant pension, however my 15 odd years generates one at the age of 55 or 60? Not a lot, but better in my pocket than theirs


That would be nice, I joined in1960 at 16 yo and left in 1971, a grand total of 11 years regular plus 3 reserve (9+3 BE system) The question is, how much of that counts as "service" because the 9 years began on one´s 18th birthday?
Guys who did the straight 12 years received a gratuity on demob.

Like ian16th, I got zilch. Also had a deafness claim refused but that´s another tale.

[charliegolf]

Nutty, it's 60 for you. Shack- I have a pdf download but I can't find where I got it! I can send it to you if you pm me an email. I'm worried that you'd need to be on AFPS 75 to qualify- I assume Nutloose (like me) is. Either way, it don't just happen, you have to apply in the 6 ish months before age 60 to get it. You can, if eligible, get a forecast now.

CG

[ian16th]

Nutty,

I believe that one had to be serving at the time of the change, which I believe was 1975. I was demobbed March 65.

As Shack37 has indicated, the rules for Boys & Apps were convoluted.

Our engagement didn't start until our 18th birthday, but pensionable service, if you stayed in that long, was counted from 17 years and 6 months.

So anyone that did their 22 received at least 22.5 years pension!

I tend to 'round out' my service and say that I served 13 years, but it was actually 12 years 10 months, less 5 days :cool:

[NutLoose]

Yep it appears to be as you both say, see

https://www.gov.uk/pensions-and-compensation-for-veterans#armed-forces-pension-scheme-1975-afps-75

[jonw66]

Thanks for that link Nutty, I have never looked into it since I left and didn't realise we were paid from 60
Best regards
Jon

[NutLoose]

And you get a tax free lump sum as well I think

[jonw66]

Yeah 3 times the annual income I just didn't realise we got it at sixty.

[diginagain]

Or you could transfer your pot into private pension, with much better provision.

[NutLoose]

I never looked at it either Jon, I just remember they gave me a letter when I left and it told me to present it as proof thirty years on, still a while to wait.

[jonw66]

Absolutely have some paperwork somewhere but have never followed anything up.
Should do really.
Regards
Jon

[charliegolf]

Or you could transfer your pot into private pension, with much better provision.

Not unless you do it within 12 months; or have a very good reason. (I think)

CG

[jonw66]

It is index linked so a good financial advisor friend told me leave it as it is.many years ago.
That is how I left it.
Best regards
Jon

[diginagain]

Not unless you do it within 12 months; or have a very good reason. (I think)There are a number of specialists who are happy to guide you through the process as it presently stands, but the door closes next April. AFPS understandably try to make it difficult, but it is possible to take control of your pot and make it work more efficiently. The reason I gave for this undertaking was along the lines of "I have no confidence that the Government will manage my pension in the most efficient manner."

[jonw66]

Diginagain can you elaborate on that, as has been stated myself and Nutloose have just left thing's as they are for many years.
If there are better options my night would have been well spent.
Cheers
Jon

[diginagain]

... as has been stated myself and Nutloose have just left thing's as they are for many years. It's not unusual - I guess many of us retain a degree of faith in the 'system', that it is pulling-out all the stops to look after our best interests.

I'll send you a Private Message with a link to the people handling my transfer.

Back OT - I have a GSM with NI clasp, and somehow managed to be awarded an LSGC, despite youthful transgressions. A NDM would be nice to recognise the challenges faced during three long tours standing about in BAOR...

[jonw66]

Thanks very much send it to Nutty as well.
Best regards
Jon

[NutLoose]

Pretty please. :)

[charliegolf]

Back OT - I have a GSM with NI clasp, and somehow managed to be awarded an LSGC, despite youthful transgressions. A NDM would be nice to recognise the challenges faced during three long tours standing about in BAOR...

Pumas?

CG

[diginagain]

Pumas?
Land Rover/Bedford/Sultan/Scout/Gazelle/LynxAH1/7.

[Al R]

BroomstickPilot,

I started this thread a couple of years ago. We adorn all manner of deserving folk and non deserving flunkies with baubles, yet..

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/493927-medal-wounded.html

[Pontius Navigator]

What a useful thread drift on the previous page.

[NutLoose]

Personally I would award a VC to all those killed in action as you cannot argue that it was above and beyond of that which is expected.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Back OT - I have a GSM with NI clasp, and somehow managed to be awarded an LSGC, despite youthful transgressions. A NDM would be nice to recognise the challenges faced during three long tours standing about in BAOR...
Pumas?

CG


Trust me, no one stands in a Puma over the age of about 7, unless suffering from dwarfism or previously rang the bells at Notre Dame Cathedral

[Al R]

Diginagain,

There are a number of specialists who are happy to guide you through the process as it presently stands, but the door closes next April. AFPS understandably try to make it difficult, but it is possible to take control of your pot and make it work more efficiently. The reason I gave for this undertaking was along the lines of "I have no confidence that the Government will manage my pension in the most efficient manner."

The process is quite simple, but there are many shysters out there. One I found earlier this week, has offices in South America. This (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_385458.pdf) data (out today) is the biggest issue though. We're living longer, women especially so. When you're presented with a massive amount to be transferred, one that you can spend on a Lambo, remind yourself that whilst it's in AFPS, it's guaranteed for life. If your wife outlives you, at least she has a pension for life. What value that peace of mind?

That doesn't mean it's better than a personal pension, just that it has guarantees that are different and unique. Personal pensions these days too, have unique benefits - such as the ability to leave it to someone when you die.. but that's not what a pension is for. I don't agree with the dogmatic clucking hens who suggest that it should never be moved, ever, but take regulated and authorised advice that you trust. What's right for your mate, might not be right for you.

[Al R]

Tankertrash,

Apparently Monty was once inspecting a parade, and paused in front of a man who was wearing a solitary ribbon, that of the Territorial Efficiency Medal. The great man spoke,

"Do you know, you are the only man on this parade who has a medal which I don't have!"

I once walked into a room which contained General Mike Jackson. Cue stern silence at my lowly intrusion. He boomed "Ha, one man in theatre with hair longer than me".

Time for a sharp exit.

[diginagain]

All valid points Al.

If your wife outlives you, at least she has a pension for life. What value that peace of mind?
One thing about APFS75 that surprised me was discovering that my widow would only receive 50% of my AFPS pension provision, whereas, I have been assured, she would receive all of my private pension.

[jonw66]

Pontius.
Indeed it has been very enlightening.
Best as ever.
Jon

[Al R]

PN

Question, if a NDM was approved and a proof copy minted but no medals issued, would you buy your own?

I know those who are indifferent, opposed, or already have a cheerful would say NO.

What do those in favour think if it was a question of buy your own? Could buy your own be extended to the QSJM?

Surely, an award must be deserved and awarded and not bought? Good lord, are we nothing more than political party donors? :eek:

[Al R]

Diginagain,

Correct, you always have had that chance and you may pass it (new legislation is complicated - sufficiently so that DC's press office completely balls'd up a press release about it this morning) on with much more freedom too these days. But don't forget, the amount you transfer out has to be managed by your widow and is subject to swathes of risks (longevity, inflation, currency, shortfall, investment etc). No right answer, or wrong, and everyone has different circumstances and 'Reduction in Yield' calculations.

[diginagain]

We're singing from the same songsheet, Al; every case needs to be viewed on its individual merits, but at least people may now be more aware that they actually have a choice to take control of a not-insignificant part of their future rather than leave it in the hands of an inefficient organisation.

[salad-dodger]

Personally I would award a VC to all those killed in action as you cannot argue that it was above and beyond of that which is expected.
So you would award our country's highest award for bravery to EVERYONE killed in action? You haven't really thought that through have you? That's about what I would have expected from T93.

Thankfully you don't make the decision nut job. :ugh:

S-D

[jonw66]

And thanks for that Digin it never occurred to me until tonight as I said privately,
Cheers
Jon

[NutLoose]

valour
ˈvalə/Submit
noun
great courage in the face of danger, especially in battle.
"the medals are awarded for acts of valour"
synonyms: bravery, courage, fearlessness, courageousness, braveness, intrepidity, intrepidness, pluck, pluckiness, nerve, backbone, spine, heroism, stout-heartedness, manliness, manfulness, audacity, boldness, gallantry, daring, spirit, fortitude, mettle, dauntlessness, doughtiness, hardihood; More
antonyms: cowardice



Sd can you think of a single act of valour higher than to give your life for your country, I can't, however not the place to discuss this

[Shack37]

Nutty, it's 60 for you. Shack- I have a pdf download but I can't find where I
got it! I can send it to you if you pm me an email. I'm worried that you'd need to be on AFPS 75 to qualify- I assume Nutloose (like me) is. Either way, it don't just happen, you have to apply in the 6 ish months before age 60 to get it. You can, if eligible, get a forecast now



Thanks CG, PM sent.

[jonw66]

Salad you're back lovely. :)

[jonw66]

And if you would like to remove your post calling someone a nut job that would be great.

[salad-dodger]

NutJob, I think your argument on presenting the country's highest award for valour to all who fall in conflict is flawed, but I'm not going to be dragged into arguments of why. To be honest, you should be able to work that out for yourself. If it helps, I've put the requirements for a VC below:

The Victoria Cross is the highest military decoration awarded for valour "in the face of the enemy" to members of the armed forces of various Commonwealth countries, and previous British Empire territories.

I assume also that you are aware of The Elizabeth Cross?

Jon, no thank you, unless it caused you some confusion.

S-D

[jonw66]

As long as you're happy old chappy.

[jonw66]

No sign of the nurse yet salad.

[Al R]

PN,

I was being a little flippant, apols. Anna Soubry has difficulties with the concept of 'retrospective action' anyway so maybe, regrettably, from here on the award could be gratis and at cost, for previous service.

[Pontius Navigator]

Al, of course there will still be Walts, gratis or issued.

[ShotOne]

Righto, salad, so you disagree with the VC proposal but you're not going to be "dragged into" explaining why. This is a discussion forum. As it happens, I agree with your position but how does disagreeing with you make someone a "nut job"?

[jonw66]

Nail hammer and head Shotone.

[Bill4a]

Several years ago at a secret Mediterranean airbase one of my spam loving friends who wasn't there either said 'That's what I like about you Brits, your uniforms are a masterly understatement!' Fully dressed he had 7 rows of ribbons most of them from being in Vietnam that he'd had to work for but a fair number were for marksman and other mundane things. His point that you could tell someone's career from the medals hadn't occurred to me up to then.
There's a comment re the Defence Medal, I'm pretty sure everyone who wore one got it for being in harms way at home. My parents each had one from service in the AFS in the early 40s, I wouldn't call that a doddle!
But as for miniatures I think I've worn mine 4 times in the last 3 years!
Oh well, more pills nurse!

[Wander00]

Bill4a - my parents too - Dad on a fire engine in London and Mum putting out incendiary bombs with buckets of sand in Eastcote