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EC DKN
15th Nov 2014, 08:09
Hi, I just checked the bristol ground school web and I've seen they have changed their course structure in 3 modules instead of 2. Is it new?

ATPL Course Structure & Fees | Bristol Groundschool (http://www.bristol.gs/bgs-course-structure-fees/)

Scoobster
15th Nov 2014, 10:17
Yes it is new. It was announced on the 2nd November at the Professional Flyer Show - It was alledgedly a "big announcement" which was kept from the other ATPL providers.

Most schools provide a 3 sitting/module system and Bristol needed to make up ground.. I was speaking with them to enquire about joining the ATPL.. The person at the stand was convincing but the woman over the phone didn't exactly fill me with joy!

keith williams
15th Nov 2014, 21:53
Yes it is new.

BGS have traditionally done the course in two modules, while some other schools have gone for the three-module option. For some students the three-module option is better because it reduces the work load and also permits shortening of the individual periods of compulsory residential training. In some cases it is very difficult for students to take periods of three weeks away from their jobs to do a two-week residential training element followed by a week of exams. For many doing this twice in a single year is all but impossible.

With the current depressed state of the flight training market, all schools are probably feeling the pinch and are looking for ways of increasing their student numbers. This looks like a method of doing just that.

GBEBZ
17th Nov 2014, 01:39
All students got this email:



14th Nov 2014

Hi

We are writing to tell you about some important changes in the course structure which you may wish to opt in to. According to our records you have started but not yet completed training on our fixed wing ATPL course. If this is not the case, please still read through this letter and then feel free to contact us either by phone on +44 (0)1275 340444 or by email to [email protected] if you believe that these changes may affect you.

Currently, as you know, your course includes 2 x two week classroom ‘brush-up’ periods, one before each exam sitting, or 20 working days in total. This is more than twice the 65 hours required by the regulators and more than most of our competitors offer, but it reflects what we consider is necessary to learn the content rather than just pass the exams. Running the course in two modules has had advantages and disadvantages, on the positive side the brush-ups give you plenty of classroom time to get to grips with the content and correct any misunderstandings but many students tell us they to find it difficult to get two weeks off work followed by a third week off for exams and some also find that the eight exams in Module 1 are too much to do all at one sitting.

We have been listening to our students and trying to figure out how to meet these challenges to deliver a more efficient course and have taken some guidance from the way the Open University operates. They do run some courses purely by distance learning but, for the more complex ones, they run group tutorials throughout the course, often at weekends. The advantages of these ‘accelerator weekends’ are that you get the benefits of classroom instruction earlier in the course when it is more likely to be needed, that there is more contact between the students and the tutors and, of course, that you meet the other people who are on the course at the same stage as you.

We think this is a good idea, and so we are introducing accelerator weekends for the more difficult subjects to be taken at your option throughout the course, and before you come on the brush-up sessions. The first of these have already been programmed and the dates are listed on our website together with the outline content. We anticipate that not everyone will want to attend all the accelerator weekends so we are going to make them optional, and include six accelerator days (three weekends if you attend the whole weekend) in the price of the course.

We are going to tie this in with a switch to a three module system for all new fixed wing customers, with one week (5 working days) of classroom revision for each module just before the exams. This will slightly increase the offered face-to-face classroom time from 20 days to 21 days for those that need it but reduce the required time to 15 days for those that do not.

The new course structure will be mandatory for new students, but we think it represents a significant improvement on the existing structure and want to encourage existing students to switch across to it and to take advantage of the accelerator weekends. It has been designed to make it easy to do that.

The subject distribution in the new 3 Module course will be:

New Module 1:
New Module 2:
New Module 3:
Instrumentation
Radio Navigation
Communications (VFR and IFR)
General Navigation
Aircraft General Knowledge
Mass and Balance
Meteorology
Air Law
Operational Procedures
Human Performance
Flight Planning
Principles of Flight

Performance

If you have started Module 1 but not yet taken any exams we would recommend that you switch across to the new three module system straight away, unless you are very close to your exams. This will mean you can stop studying Communications, Mass and Balance and Flight Planning and concentrate on General Navigation, Instruments, Human Performance and Met. In order to do this please email [email protected] now.

If you don’t want to switch across to the three module system you don’t need to do anything. We will run the two systems in parallel for a while. We would still encourage you to switch over to the three module system after your first group of exams.

If you have done Module 1 on the old system, you can still switch across to the new three Module system and have slightly lighter revision courses with fewer subjects in each. Course fees are not affected but you can take advantage of the accelerator weekends. In order to do this please email [email protected] now.

Frequently Asked Questions

Do I have to switch?

No, you may remain on your current 2 module course if you wish. There is a limit to how long we will continue to run the 2 week brush-up courses; we’ll let you know well in advance if we decide they are no longer viable due to small numbers.

What will happen when I switch?

We will remotely change your course in ATPdigital from the old two module system to the new three module system. All the work you have done in subjects shifted to later modules will be preserved. The only thing you will have to do is reschedule the course planner on your home screen which will revert to default dates for a three module course.

Will you continue to run 2-week brush-up courses?

Yes, the current plan is to run them until all current students have had a reasonable opportunity to complete their course. We don’t know how long that will be, as we don’t know how many students will switch, but we will let you know well in advance if we decide that the 2 week brush-ups are no longer viable.

If I switch, are the accelerator weekends optional?

Entirely optional.

If I choose not to attend accelerator weekends do I get a refund?

There is no charge for the free accelerator courses, therefore no refund is due if you do not wish to attend them.

What is the new pricing structure?

£2140 for the complete course,
£1320 for the new module one alone,
£410 for the new module 2 alone, and
£410 for the new module 3 alone

Additional accelerator weekends are £240 each, £120 a day

If I stay on the two module course can I attend the accelerator weekends?

Yes, but you will be charged.

If I switch, can I change my mind later and revert to a 2 module profile?

It is unlikely that this will be possible.

Will you timetable the accelerator weekends so I can go straight from one of those into my brush-up course?

For the early transition period the accelerator weekends will be timetabled just before the brush-up course for that module so you can do both together, and the content will be appropriate for that plan. This will not always be the case, as we would expect students who have started on the three module system to take advantage of the accelerator weekends earlier in their studying.

Which subjects will be covered in the accelerator weekends?

The idea is to move conceptually difficult and time consuming material from the brush-up courses to the accelerator weekends so these will concentrate on subjects like basic navigation, great circles and convergency, electrics, fuel planning, principles of flight, etc. The content of each weekend will be published on the website.

What’s the plan for helicopter pilots?

We intend to convert the ATPL(H)/IR courses to the new profile later in 2015.

keith williams
17th Nov 2014, 06:52
We anticipate that not everyone will want to attend all the accelerator weekends so we are going to make them optional, and include six accelerator days (three weekends if you attend the whole weekend) in the price of the course.




If I choose not to attend accelerator weekends do I get a refund?

There is no charge for the free accelerator courses, therefore no refund is due if you do not wish to attend them.


If I stay on the two module course can I attend the accelerator weekends?

Yes, but you will be charged.


Hmmmm. Not sure how those three statements go together.

Alex Whittingham
17th Nov 2014, 09:42
We expect that some students will not need or want the accelerator weekends, perhaps because they are studying overseas, others will undoubtably make full use of them.

There is a subtle change to the course requirement, currently the students have to do a mandatory 20 days of classroom tuition as part of the approved course. To make the students on the 3 module course do 21 days including six days on accelerator weekends, which they may not either want or need, seemed harsh so the course price now includes up to 21 days of classroom work, out of which 15 days is mandatory for the approved course. This is to bring our minima more into line with our competitors classroom time, CATS being 15 days, Propilot 12 days, whilst offering more tuition support for those that need it. The choice was to either charge for the accelerator days or include them, we thought it was fairer to include them (or at least some of them) as they form part of the larger concept.

keith williams
17th Nov 2014, 11:49
That all makes perfect sense Alex, until we come to the part when you say you will not provide refunds for those students who do not wish attend the weekends. As you have said, some students are unable to attend due to circumstance beyond their control.

To justify the "no refunds" policy by saying that "the weekends are free" is a bit disingenuous. Either the weekends are free in which case the question of refunds does not arise, or they are paid for as part of the course, in which case refunds are justified. The fact that students continuing with the old two-module system are required to pay extra to attend the weekends suggests that the latter is the case.

Alex Whittingham
17th Nov 2014, 14:19
Keith, although we have known each other for years, you are a competitor. I'm content that we are not being unfair, remember that the students on the two module course have already had 20 days of classroom tuition.

keith williams
17th Nov 2014, 14:53
Alex, I am not a competitor at all. I do not work for and have no connection with, any training organisation and I have no intention of doing so in the future.

I am simply pointing out the fact that requiring some of your customers to pay for something which they cannot use, and then saying "well it's free anyway so no refund will be given" is not fair at all.

Either it is included in the price of the course, in which case a refund should be given or else it is free, in which case it should be free to all of your customers.

You may choose not to agree with me if you wish. But you should at least amend your website to remove the conflicting statements between it being free and it being factored into the price of the course. These statements cannot both be true.

turbopropulsion
20th Nov 2014, 06:52
As an impartial outside, what Keith has said is 100% logical. Both cannot be true.

Alex Whittingham
20th Nov 2014, 10:42
I'm very keen on this concept, everyone I know who has done OU courses enthuses about the value of tutorial weekends during the study phases. What we find on our existing revision courses is that some students turn up very well prepared, hardly needing anything extra before the exams, and others arrive with big question marks hanging over certain areas of the syllabus. The accelerator weekends are intended to even that up, so that students get the classroom help when they need it, which almost invariably well before the revision course at the end of the module. There has been a market for many years where freelance instructors offer private tuition to cover this gap but this is, as far as I am aware, the first time that free accelerator weekends have been offered with an ATPL course.

Obviously we don't wish to mislead, so after Keith's comments I looked at the publicity material again more carefully, and can't find anything conflicting on the website. Keith commented on the letter which we sent to our existing students which is quoted above. I think we should have said;

"We anticipate that not everyone will want to attend all the accelerator weekends so we are going to make them optional, and will include six accelerator days (three weekends if you attend the whole weekend) free with the course."

instead of:

"We anticipate that not everyone will want to attend all the accelerator weekends so we are going to make them optional, and include six accelerator days (three weekends if you attend the whole weekend) in the price of the course."

The error was mine, I didn't express myself clearly enough.

With the announcement now a few days old we are getting replies coming in from our existing students, and a fairly large number are asking to switch across to the new system, as I hoped they would. As Keith says, the three module system seems to be intrinsically better for many customers, the only question for us was how to keep the effectiveness of tuition up with only three five day revision courses. Accelerator weekends seem to be the answer.

keith williams
20th Nov 2014, 14:34
I don't think that anyone has ever questioned the value of additional weekend study. But the acid test of whether or not the weekends really are free is to compare the new course price with the old course price.

The email quoted in a previous post gives a charge of £120 per day for weekend study.

Reducing the in-house consolidation from 4 weeks (20 days) to 3 weeks (15 days) should reduce the cost by £120 per day x 5 day reduction =£600.

Then adding the six days of weekend study should increase the cost by £120 per day x 6 days = £720 .

The overall effect of the above change would be an increase of £120.

Several pprune threads quote a price of £2100 for the old two-module course. The email above gives a price of £2140 for the new course. This is an increase of £40.

Although this new price does not fully cover the £120 cost of the additional day, the saving is only £80. So if the figure of £2100 for the old two-module course is correct, the weekends can only be said to be really free, if we assume that the 20 days of the old-style consolidation periods were free.

OhNoCB
20th Nov 2014, 14:41
I went through Bristol a few years ago and thought the two module system worked really well. I guess it's not possible to give all new students a choice between 2 and 3 modules due to classroom phase scheduling, but I would not have liked to do it in 3. I felt like I got a lot out of the brush up fortnights both for the exams and beyond them, and as someone who could not have afforded to travel to accelerator weekends (I would need flights + accommodation) I would have missed out on stuff I guess.

Just my own thoughts.

transmitforDF
21st Nov 2014, 16:31
I agree with the above post. Having just recently finished Mod 1 and now focussing on mod 2, I see no issue with the current 2 mod system. Bristol have very successfully been running this system for years and this is one of the many reasons they stand out, why change now? That's not to say that this new idea is a bad one however I don't believe they're doing themselves any favours when it comes to distancing themselves from the competition by offering a more sparsely placed module setup.

With regards to accelerator weekends and 5 day brush up courses with subsequent exam sittings, I would not have sufficient leave to cover a more drawn out period. Plus tabbing it between Sussex and Somerset is enough of a pain as it is for the original course let alone an extra one with accelerator weekends. For me personally it would be untenable so it would be hard to imagine what it's like for those coming from overseas and beyond. That's just my situation though for others it may be a perfect solution.

I do hope the current system remains in place for the next year, at least for my sake :p

keith williams
21st Nov 2014, 20:23
I don't believe they're doing themselves any favours when it comes to distancing themselves from the competition by offering a more sparsely placed module setup.

That is not what they are doing.

The three-module system is not at all new, in fact CATS have been doing it for about ten years, and over the years an increasing number of other schools have adopted it. So rather than distancing themselves BGS are following the established trend.

It is more likely that BGS are attempting to win some of the customers whose preference for the three-module system would otherwise make them go to other schools. But as the two previous posts show, the three-module system is not universally popular. The talk of "free" study weekends is probably intended to increase the attractiveness the BGS offering, to give them an edge over the other three-module course providers.

Spidermann
24th Nov 2014, 12:50
If you take it to the limit of definition, there really is no such thing as free weekend training (by ANY training provider not just BGS). They all cost something, even if you live nearby and only need to account for petrol costs to drive to and from the venue. In most cases I would think there would also be hotel, food, taxi and maybe even flight costs, if travelling from overseas.