Tutor

[klingonbc]

Rumours are of another Total Electrics Failure. Oh dear!

[The B Word]

Good job the same company isn't providing a retractable turbo-prop version for MFTS then...:ugh:

[Jollygreengiant64]

Should we just re-open the Chippy/ Bulldog production lines? Might even be a marketable proposition...

[Training Risky]

I vote for the Firefly - cracking aerobatic trainer!

[AllTrimDoubt]

I vote for the Firefly - cracking aerobatic trainer!

I vote for that vote!

[Background Noise]

Perhaps we could just put everyone through a standard BFT on the T6 and then stream at BHT.......:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

I've never flown Das Teutor and the only version of the Firefly I've flown was the T-67A. But here's what Greeners wrote about the T67M in the December 2011 edition of FLYER: Ah yes, the roll performance. I’d been warned that the Firefly has the slowest roll rate in NATO. Surely it couldn’t be that bad. Actually, it was; borderline glacial and if Firefly pilots become good at slow rolls, it is probably because it is extremely difficult to roll all the way around without substantial rudder input. Those massive glider wings present a substantial impediment to rolling, both in the horizontal and even more so in the vertical.

The T-67A had a dismal roll rate and it seems that the later versions weren't any better. Hence all rolling manoeuvres at air shows seemed to use flick entries rather than conventional aileron entries

You can read the article here: http://www.swiftaircraft.com/SwiftAircraft/media/Home-Images/FLYER-Firefly.pdf

[Evalu8ter]

Flown all three - I'd place the 'Dog first because it still felt and smelt like a military trainer, whilst the T67 rolled like a sloth on Valium....the Tutor feels half way between, and also benefits from a judicious boot of rudder - just not as much as the Firefly. I didn't fly the T67 M260, and appreciate the grunt was probably nice, but it wouldn't have improved roll rate. Only flew the Chipmunk a couple of times but if you could bottle nostalgia.....

[50+Ray]

The Firefly 260 is streets better than the 'Dog and the Tutor is far worse. Roll rate in the Grob is rubbish, rudder effectiveness poor, and directional stability bad - it yaws all over the place in turbulence.
In addition the Tutor cannot carry anything like a full fuel load unless flown by two midgets, and is not certified for airways.

[A and C]

The reason that the Grob Tutor was chosen was due to the sky highprice that BAe wanted to charge for the Bulldog spar life extention and at the right price would have been the logical option.

Having had a look at the job myself and consider BAe overpriced it by IRO 400% I can see why the bean counters arrived at the Tutor decision, after all who would by an overhauled twenty year old car at the same price as a new one.

Its just a pitty that BAe failed take on board the overpricing message until the Govenment had to chop up the Nimrod outside their office windows.

Those old lags who dont like the Tutor should remember that most of its problems have been a result of the equipment spec that was drawn up by the MoD, the Hoffman prop was a lighter design and not the favored item of the manufacturer (the MT prop was ) and ten years down the line the fleet was grounded until all the Hofman Props were replaced with MT props.

The Grob while not a classic aircraft is more than capable of carrying out the task at a price that the govenment finances can afford.

[CoffmanStarter]

Slight thread drift ...

Does anyone know why the Trago Mills SAH-1 didn't make the cut in the 80's as a potential replacement for the Bulldog ? I understand the current design evolution is the FLS Sprint 160 ... and fully aerobatic :confused:

I accept corporate stability was/has been a problem in manufacture ... but isn't it about time we supported the British aviation industry.

Wasn't the Trago featured during the 80's BBC Test Pilot series ?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Well BEagle, I HAVE flown both T67M260 & Tutor. A lot. (And chippie & 'dog too). So I'm basing my comments on experience, not a magazine article. And that experience extends to the current FT system (as well as the older model). And is current.

Note, I do not profess an opinion about the VC10. I wonder why?

[Lima Juliet]

I have flown the T67M260, the Grob 115 Tutor, the Chipmunk / Supermunk and the Bulldog. For fun and for assessing a student's capacity I would choose the Chippie, for grunt and yee-haw aeros fun I would choose the T67M. Never really liked the Bulldog that much but it is soooo much better than the Tutor in my opinion. You can't see out of the Grob properly, it is too sensitive in pitch at slow speed (which is probably why a few have lost their nose legs on the runway in the past) and it feels underpowered compared to the T67M and the 'Dog.

By the way, I believe that sticking the boot in to increase the roll rate on the Tutor is verboeten by Herr Grob!

As for the Trago Mills - which is actually a shop like a slightly upmarket Poundland in the West Country - the old addage of "it it looks right, it flies right..." comes to mind!

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Visschedijk/7007.jpg

I can't imagine the original iteration was that good? The Rollason Condor was put up against the Bulldog in the light trainer competition as well - can you imagine that being selected as well?!! :eek:

LJ

PS. Just found this picture of the T67M proving the look/fly-right equation!
http://www.gtaviation.co.uk/-/10740.jpg

[BEagle]

AllTrimDoubt, the reason why I linked to that article is that Greeners knows what he's talking about and is well-respected - and the article was completely independent.

What relevance does your reference to the VC10 have to this debate?

:rolleyes:

[GreenKnight121]

Nice plane, LJ - it can fly without a pilot!

Yes, that second image is a screen capture from a video game, not a photo.

[Arm out the window]

I'd place the 'Dog first because it still felt and smelt like a military trainer

A fine combination of avgas, sweat and spew? :)

[Lima Juliet]

Here you go GK...:ok:

http://www.okair.cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/3okc-na-zadech.jpg

This one is optionally manned! Note how the handling pilot can be hidden in the shadow...

[GreenKnight121]

You can still see his head .

It is a very nice pic, thanks.

[PICKS135]

According to the 'Book of the series' Dave Southwood is the man who "tested" the Trago, with the owner of the company with him for insurance purposes.

[OK465]

OK-OKC :confused:

[CoffmanStarter]

OK465 ...

Czech outfit called OKAir :ok:

OKAir (http://www.okair.cz)

[OK465]

Had me wondering. That's too green and not flat enough for Oklahoma. :)

I guess the guy in the right seat is the Czech Pilot then.