RAF Sidearms

[Fonsini]

Living out in the Sonoran Desert requires a slightly different mindset, and I'm sure it sounds very strange for me to say that I sit surrounded by an array of Heckler & Koch's finest and about 50,000 rounds of assorted ammunition as I type this, but America does afford ex-pats some wonderful firearm related opportunities including the ability to ensure that at least a few Enfields and Webleys remain under British civilian ownership, not to mention the fun of plinking away at targets in the open desert. All of which got me to thinking - what does the RAF issue to pilots by way of sidearms these days ?

I recall the Tornado shootdown during GW1 when Nicholls and his driver were shot down, they were issued with Walther PPKs as I recall. There was a brief conversation about "going for it" as the Iraqis approached, but discretion proved to be the better part of valour and they surrendered. One Iraqi soldier wielded one of the PPKs and attempted to fire it into the air by way of celebration - and it jammed. Not entirely uncommon for PPKs, as Princess Anne's bodyguard also discovered.

So what do the lads go into combat with these days, anyone know ?

[Al R]

Stand by for someone to come along and tell you it was in fact, the PP and not the PPK. They're like that here you know.. :{

When the cause of the stoppage was identified as a maintenance fault, I think the rozzers wanted them back. T'was not to be. It had a lot going for it, the half cock mechanism in particular, following an ejection injury.

[GipsyMagpie]

One has ones man to carry ones weapon these days. A gimpy if they can unpin it.

[Finnpog]

The General is only used for 'Beating'. A Gentleman should use something more 'refined' and imperial - perhaps in .455"

The Glock is a very good pistolé however.

[Fonsini]

The Glock is a very good pistolé however.

Had a 23, 26, and a 34 and sold all of them - horrible ergonomics, but very affordable for mass purchasers like the military and dead nuts reliable I'll grant you.

I'd be surprised if they were being issued with Glocks though, ADs are a big problem with the Safe Action especially carrying it on the body while wriggling in and out of cockpits, although saying that in certain quarters would likely get me perforated.

Interestingly the RAF Regiment seems to think that the Glock 17 is a pintle mounted machine gun (judging by the accompanying photo) with an effective range of 25m and a "maximum range" of 50m.

The RAF Regiment - Glock 17 Pistol (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/forceprotection/glock17pistol.cfm)

[Courtney Mil]

Well, Al R was right. Here I am. PPK = James Bond. PP = RAF aircrew. K meant compact as in very little to fit under a DJ. :ok:

Lucky the two Johns' PPs jammed or they would have killed.

[NickPilot]

I owned a (.380/9K) PPK a few years ago and had a friend who owned a (.32/7.65mm) PP. I shot them both quite a bit on the range and while I loved both it was hard to get through 30 rounds without a stoppage of some sort or another. A beautiful little pistol and fun to play with, but I certainly wouldn't want to put my life on the line with it.

[ShotOne]

The K stands for Kriminale, being the compact version of the 1930's German "Polizei Pistole" for detective use.

[Al R]

Courtney, I am disappointed in you!

Interesting to think that 15 or so years ago, the sidearm was almost extinct (for infantry and other supporting arms). Engaged in TACP, the old Browning was very useful but they were generally deemed old hat.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, I had to, Al.

Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises. Best thing was, it was heavier so it hurt more when you threw it at the enemy.

[Fonsini]

Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises

Base armorer scratches head and wonders why he is replacing so many broken firing pins.

[Vendee]

My finger never seemed long enough to release the working parts with the mag removed on the Browning. Never misfired though.

[Basil]

Never misfired though.
Had a 9mm Browning jam once.* Mentioned it to an Army friend: "You have to clean them, y'know."
Army can be irritating. ;)

* Suspect I hadn't fully cocked it :O

[Fonsini]

My finger never seemed long enough to release the working parts with the mag removed on the Browning. Never misfired though.

'tis strange, retract slide, push on slide stop pin with thumb of right hand and pull slide stop out with fingers of left hand, release slide - slowly. I always liked how easy the Browning was to disassemble, I do however routinely remove the magazine disconnect - if ever there was a useless safety device that detracts from a pistol's function this would be it.

You really need to try a Ruger Mk.III - truly perverse in nature.

[MPN11]

My finger never seemed long enough to release the working parts with the mag removed on the Browning. Never misfired though.

Remove magazine, work slide, ensure chamber is empty. With slide forward insert [empty] magazine, operate trigger whilst retaining control of hammer fall *. Remove magazine.
I was lucky [and popular] as my middle finger is long enough to disengage the magazine safety.

At one stage I owned 3 Brownings, typically fired 5,000 p/a in competition with the No 1 pistol, and had just one stoppage [a misfeed] in about 15 years of top-level UK competition.

However ... I have gone "Guns and Ammo" ... please excuse me.

* To avoid uninhibited impact on firing pin retaining plate, which will otherwise split in time.

[Herod]

OK, so I'm ancient. We had a .38 revolver, with six rounds. The safe thing to do was to only load five, keeping the chamber under the hammer empty. Jumping about aeroplanes with six loaded could cause one to shoot oneself in the foot: literally.

[Banana Boy]

At risk of going slightly off piste...

What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.

Anybody know different?

BB

[Melchett01]

What was it that Murphy's Laws of Combat said? Something along the lines of:

Bring a gun, better still bring 2 guns. And make sure your gun never has a calibre that starts with a number less than 4. Seems reasonable to me!

I never had any problems with the Browning - it worked fine as a paperweight. I always said if I had to use a sidearm then something had gone spectacularly wrong. I'd always rather use an L85 which although a bit heavy are accurate, reliable (now at least) and relatively compact and therefore good in confined spaces.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Comissioned aircrew shouldn't be allowed anywhere near sidearms. It was one of Cranwell's finest who put a couple of rounds (when one ND isn't enough!) into the ceiling of the armoury at Gornji Vakuf whilst stopping over with his broken twin-rotor death banana, leading to anyone RAF (including TSW's finest) getting stick by proxy.

[Pontius Navigator]

At risk of going slightly off piste...

What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.

Anybody know different?

BB

Not at all, aircrew arming post-war was ordered but no policy for use, AFAIK, was ever issued. V-force was not issued in the 60s though we still had range practice. When we tooled up in the Far East it was with a selection of S&W and Colt .38s.

Best advice was as a signalling device or to deter nasties in the jungle - 5 rounds didn't go far. In the 70s, in Cyprus we were armed for self-protection on base.
Later, on Nimrods, I was told they were to guard the aircraft if we diverted. I suggested 4xSMG would have been better, but it was never taken up.

[polecat2]

What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2?

Recall from Bob Stanford Tuck's biography that he carried a pistol on ops, and even used it to threaten a couple of squadron members. Don't think there were any details on the pistol though.


Polecat

[Tashengurt]

I do recall most of our aircrew plumping for the little PP during the work up to GW1 and then looking enviously at the massive (by comparison) Browning that one bod opted for. It had a much cooler shoulder holster too.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[GeeRam]

What was the RAF policy regarding aircrew sidearms during WW2? The movies would certainly indicate that German aircrew flying over England carried a Luger. I have not seen any sign that our crews carried a personal weapon.

Early part of the BoB, some Luftwaffe pilots carried sidearms, usually Walther PP's, as a Luger/P38 were too big and bulky for the confines of a Me109 cockpit, with everything else to be carried.

Was a lot more common, for Luftwaffe pilots to carry sidearm on Eastern Front, and then later on the Channel Front after D-Day.

I think it was more common for RAF pilots to carry sidearms out in the Far east on ops.
I think most USAAF fighter pilots in the MTO/ETO/PTO carried their Colt Officers .45 in the M7 shoulder holster.

[BBadanov]

In Vietnam, RAAF aircrew had the Browning 9mm.


Holstered into the aircrew vest on the left side, and on the right side we had an attachable metal shoulder extension. This clipped onto the rear of the pistol to attempt some degree of accuracy at 25m.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bad, I would imagine with imminent rescue you might have used the pistol, but what, I wonder was the RoE IN the Gulf for instance?

Don't shoot shepherds for one :)

[Tashengurt]

PN. I think they were more for self defence between sorties.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Pontius Navigator]

Tags, that fits with Cyprus in the 70s. What always got me was having to remove the mag when we went indoors. Clearly intruders never intrude.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Banana Boy - In relation to your question regarding WW2 issue I found this elsewhere,

King Regs clause 2566

Automatic Pistols
1 Every officer of the general duties, equipment, accountant, medical and dental branches and every commissioned engineer, signals and armament officer must be in possession of a service type pistol or revolver throughout his period of service on the active list and will be held personally responsible that he so equipped. Every such officer, subject to clause 2, will be entitled to be issued on demand to No.1 Maintenance Unit with one Colt automatic pistol (.455") or pistol revolver No.2 Mark 1(.38") for his personal use during that period...

...3 Pistols and revolvers held by officers may at the discretion of C.O.s be handed over to the unit or station armoury for safe custody whilst the officers are on the strength of the unit.

Airmen's Arms and Accoutriements

Rifles, pistols, revolvers and bayonets will be regarded as unit equipment i.e. they will not be transferred to the airman.

[4Greens]

Old saying from Afghan warfare, always save the last bullet for yourself.

[Banana Boy]

Many thanks for all your replies to my earlier question.

It looks as though there was an element of personal choice for WW2 RAF aircrew regarding whether or not they flew with a weapon, and it would appear that the default norm was NOT to carry a sidearm, at least in the European theatre.

We may all be used to carrying a weapon on ops these days, but our forefathers largely declined, it would seem. Interesting, since their chances of getting shot down were infinitely greater than the odds faced today.

BB

[Tankertrashnav]

Something seemed to happen to me once I left the RAF Regiment and became a navigator. Up to then I wasn't a bad shot on the Bren, SLR and Sterling. Then I found out that from now on my personal weapon was to be the 9mm Browning and can honestly say that any barn door in my immediate vicinity had absolutely nothing to fear from me! Never carried one in an aircraft, the only thing I ever actually fired was a Very pistol.

[BBadanov]

In Oz, the Browning was replaced I think with the Beretta. And we had Walther PP in RAF.


So, despite plenty of target practice, my shooting never really improved !!

[Rosevidney1]

The difference between the Browning GP for civilians (before the infamous 1997 banning of all cartridge pistols) and what we were issued with in British service was immense. The former was the Rolls Royce of its day and the other certainly was not. The serial numbers rarely matched. I always found new civilian ammunition to be far superior to the nearly out of date military rounds which was all we ever seemed to get.

[Chugalug2]

Being an ex Cold War warrior, the only time I was ever required to carry a side arm was on a Jungle Survival course in the jungle behind Mersing. Evidently there was a chance that Indonesian infiltrators could be there also.

Thus we were each armed with a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver, a webbing holster and belt, a lanyard attached to the butt and thence round our necks, and 6 rounds of ammo. The latter we were ordered to chamber. All of them. Couldn't we pocket them but load if required? No! Couldn't we just load 5 and leave the "live" chamber empty? No! Thus the greatest danger we faced was suddenly not from some fearsomely venomous snake nor the ever present leaches, but from blowing our own feet off should the lanyard get caught in vegetation, draw the weapon out of the holster (secured only by a press stud), and perhaps by inadvertently catching the trigger in the process, discharge the weapon.

Mercifully no such mishap occurred. The Indonesians similarly did not materialise, and all and sundry heroically hacked their way out of the impenetrable jungle onto a metaled highway where the Magnolia man was waiting, knowing that the Brits always appeared at about the same time and place and were always ready to buy up his entire stock of Ice Creams.

The ride back to Changi via Johore Bahru in a 3 tonner confirmed that the real risk all along had been the humble leach, as they were discovered one by one with disgust.

[Tankertrashnav]

Apparently the commonest injury on the jungle survival course was the machete bite (self inflicted during over enthusiastic hacking).

I'd forgotten all about the Magnolia man but that definitely takes me back :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

I love the idea of the empty live chamber. Do you understand which chamber is live? Not an easy one to answer, especially in the heat of battle, and depending upon whether your pistol is single-action or self-cocking and which way you employ the latter.

[NutLoose]

The serial numbers rarely matched.

We had a rock at Brize used to mix up all the stripped SLR parts then make you run to the fence and back and assemble your weapon, I used to jog and by the time I got back in last place the only bits left were mine, I then took my time assembling it while the others rushed and fumbled it out of breath, I used to finish second or third.. The said Rock hated it.

[ExAscoteer]

Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises. Best thing was, it was heavier so it hurt more when you threw it at the enemy.

Really Courtney?

That sounds like the standard B/S I heard from my fellow aircrew every time we dit GDT (or CCS in later years).

Get inside 50m of me (for real) with an SLP in my hands, and you are likely to be going to hospital.

Get within 25m, and you are likely to be going to an undertaker.

[John Eacott]

Dad was on Beaufighters in the Second World War and had a .38 S&W which he carried overseas, but not issued in UK (as a nightfighter pilot).

He was on 603 (City of Edinburgh) for escort & anti shipping over the Med and used to hang the pistol alongside the P bottle in the cockpit when flying. All the aircrew (he was NCO pilot) carried them at all times in Africa, he tells of a chum who left the pub in Nigeria and Dad had to take the pistol off him when he wanted to shoot at an oncoming car!

Not having the pistol on him when he was shot down meant that it sank with the aircraft, not that it was much of a consideration at the time.

[Courtney Mil]

I doubt I could have thrown one 25m, ExAscot.

Not sure exactly what you're saying there, but if I'm answering the right question, yes, I think I could shoot someone with either weapon at 25m. I think I had greater confidence in the Browning, though.

I bought a 357 Ruger in the States some years ago and I have to say it was completely bomb proof. It it wasn't for its weight, it would have been my small arm of choice as a flyer.

[ExAscoteer]

What I meant Courtney was the std B/S from my aircrew associates who reckoned the SLP as useless.

I don't know much about the PP, but my comments stand about the SLP.

Now, give me a SiG Saur 226....

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, understood.

[rjtjrt]

In RAAF in late 80's or early 90's F-111 Crew I saw carried Glock in shoulder holster.

[NickPilot]

I'm always amused and bewildered whenever a thread pops up about UK sidearms. It seems all those who actually carried them always claim that they couldn't hit a barn/would likely shoot themselves/shoot other innocents/etc.

I am not military, but as a resident of the US I own several pistols. While I am not a hillbilly gun nut, I do try to shoot once a month at least, probably averaging 100 rds a month. With no formal training I feel confident in safely handling both revolvers and semi-auto pistols, and with the level of practice I manage I consider myself a fairly decent shot.

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

[bakseetblatherer]

If I remember correctly we got issued a well used Walther PP, per trip over Iraq, given back and put away into shared storage. So these weps were passed around and knocked about and not fired or maintained by us. I have no idea what maintenance they got, maybe these were the same PPs that were there for the entire duration of the No-Fly Zone and Telic!

Back in the UK training consisted on one mag per year, so yes it was an almost pointless exercise. In my entire time in I probably didn't reach your rounds per month, using pistols anyway.

[reynoldsno1]

My Dad had both an Enfield No.2 .38 revolver and a Beretta M1934 squirreled away in the garden shed post WW2 RAF service. After he died in the late 80's my Mum told me about them, and decided I should have a look for them.
I found the revolver fairly quickly - a hefty piece of kit. It was loaded with 4 rounds, but that was all the ammunition I could find. It seemed to be in decent nick. The Beretta was in an old hairdryer box, with a full magazine and one round chambered. Again, in good nick, and I had no problems with the moving parts and unloading it.
Mum then suggested I take them to the local police station to hand them in. I smiled sweetly, and told her I would drive her to the station and she could hand them in - there would likely be far less questions. She was in & out in less than 5 minutes ....;)

[NickPilot]

BSB...that seems a shame. Pistol ammunition and regular range time seems like cheap insurance.

[Like This - Do That]

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

Nick, probably a bit of both. I'm guessing that the British forces are like us in Australia in that regard. Outside of SF, handgun training is to get someone to a standard to pass the qualification practice. As for shooting for proficiency .... pfft! Training programme approved, Ops Cell sign off, stores request for the weapons, ammo request, range booking, write a Range Instruction, do a risk assessment signed to be off by the CO, range coord meeting .... :ugh: I'm sorry to say that for all the fun a day at the range is, and for all the potential training value, it's just not worth it.

That's just for proficiency; forget the sort of expertise needed when you're terrified, banged up, hands shaking, on the ground in a strange land you've just bombed!

I suspect our American cousins are more likely to be able to do their own proficiency shooting. It's nigh on impossible to own a handgun in Aus just for the fun of shooting; can be done, but the hoops through which one must jump make it almost unfeasible.

As a junior cavalry officer I was the best shot in my Regiment ... with the rifle. 9mm SLP Mk3 however, I was diabolically bad. The only bloke in the Regiment who was any good at it was a commando who had corps transferred to the Armoured Corps. He'd had lots and lots of time on the tools, so to speak, and his musle memory hadn't faded.

[Whenurhappy]

If I recall correctly the allocation for annual pistol training is a risible 25 rounds. Enough - just - to go through the drills and fire one qualification shoot.

However, before deploying to 'Afghan', a group of us managed to get a full day on the ranges with both pistol and rifle; we must have fired 100s of rounds and our proficiency - as RAF officers - no doubt improved immeasurably.

[The Baron]

The most common 'standard calibre' for WW 2 Luftwaffe pilots was .32ACP, but no real standard auto pistol for flight crew due to the large number of arms manufacturing factories that Hitler procured in the course of events. Even the Browning 9mm Hi-Power was manufactured in big numbers for the Wehrmacht, complete with Waffenamt markings. The Walther PP and PPK were fairly common in cockpits, as well as Czech CZ27, BelgianM1922 FN, Hungarian M37 and Italian Berettas.

[Pontius Navigator]

I suspect our American cousins are more likely to be able to do their own proficiency shooting.

Remember a USAF airman coming in to the sick quarters at South Cerney holding his thumb. Apparently shot himself with his .45. I suppose it might have just bitten him :)

[ShotOne]

Interesting that the 1930's designed SLP (browning 9mm) should have been replaced in RAF use by the 1920's Walther, well into the 90's and beyond.

More so that they're probably outgunned by US civil airline pilots today. Those qualifying under the Federal Flight Deck Officer program carry S&W .40 cal pistols and are required to fire a lot more than 25 rounds a year,

[Lima Juliet]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is why we switched from the Browning 9mm SLP to the Walther PP? As I understand it, it was the introduction of arm restraints on the Mk10 ejection seat on the Tornado and the fact that the larger weapon under your arm in a shoulder holster could could break your arm as they were pulled in tight on ejection. The PP is smaller and wouldn't do this - however, when we went to the Combat Survival Waistcoat this was no longer a problem, so I never understood why we didn't go back to the SLP.

I used to carry 2x PPs with me over Iraq due to their somehat 'flakey' nature. I also remember there being a dodgy batch of Pakistani made 9mm ammo that was discovered and we all got about 10 mags to fire off on one CCS session. I also remember that a RAF Regt Cpl saved me from serious injury on the range when I was firing. Whilst going through a mag there was soft sounding bang from my weapon - as I went to recock the Cpl shouted "STOP!" at the top of his voice and took the weapon out of my hand. There was a bullet stuck half in/half out of my pistol due to the crap ammo - had I fired again the gun would have exploded in my face!

Over my various op flying sorties over Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan I have carried Browning 9mm SLP, Walther PP, L85 A2 (the shorter carbine variant), Sig 226 and a Diemaco C8. I felt the most confident with the last 2! I have also carried a PP whilst flying out of Goose - I think that was so that I could p!ss off the bear and then shoot myself!!!

LJ

[Tankertrashnav]

Is the self proclaimed lack of skill an example of British understatement, or is there some failing in sidearm training in the UK forces?

I'd go along with Like This do That. In my case my remarks re barn doors weren't that far from the truth, so that wasn't much of a British understatement. As regards practice, I think we were required to fire our personal weapon once a year, but I suspect it may have been less than that. The idea of going down to the armoury and signing out a weapon to take to the range just wouldnt occur to most of us, particularly as in those cold war days none of us ever thought we'd have to fire one in anger.

[MPN11]

Really Courtney?
That sounds loke the standard B/S I heard from my fellow aircrew every time we dit GDT (or CCS in later years).
Get inside 50m of me (for real) with an SLP in my hands, and you are likely to be going to hospital.
Get within 25m, and you are likely to be going to an undertaker. ... glad to hear someone else knows how accurate the L9A1 is/was :)

Have we met at Bisley, perchance?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was told, on good authority, that the real reason RAF aircrew got the PP was because the number needed roughly matched the number given up by the Protection crowd after the Princess Anne failure. The other reasons were made up after to justify it.

Loved the Browning. Couldn't hit a damn thing with the PP. In fact the PP is the only weapon, ground or air, that I haven't got top rating on.

Will be buying a Browning or a Sig P226 with my own money.

[Al R]

RAF Regt Cpl saved me

Leon,

Backbone of the Air Force, apparently. :hmm:

[ShotOne]

I'd second that, tt nav. I took issue with an airline colleague who'd left the RAF around '00 and described the Browning as "hopelessly inaccurate". We visited a gun range on arrival in Florida to settle matters. He got the bug, and as a result we both fire more rounds and shoot better than at any time in our respective RAF careers.

[John Eacott]

We took range practice terribly seriously: Admiral Granuzzo USN was obviously more skilled in cold war weaponry :p

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7038-2/Andy+Granuzzo+at+firing+range.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7044-2/John+Eacott+with+sten+at+firing+range.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7047-2/SOBS+at+firing+range.jpg

[Out Of Trim]

As an RAF Enlisted Airman, in my day; our personal weapon was the L1A1 SLR (British version of the FN FAL Rifle in 7.62mm NATO.) We had good initial instruction and plenty of rounds in basic training. However, after that in my early career we had an annual GDT and only had around 40 rounds each. On Exercise we were lucky to get around 10 blanks to fire off.

Guard Duty was often carried out with an empty magazine until, enough IRA incidents persuaded the Senior Officers to allow us live ammunition. In later yaars, the late 80s prior to Guard Duty we got extra Range Time and plenty of rounds to play with at last.

Unfortunately, we never got access to any sidearms, they were for Officers only. SNCOs usually got the 9mm SMG.

[Lima Juliet]

I've just pulled my old green cards from my desk and my short barrelled L85 carbine is actually called an L22! I didn't know that.

It was really good for squirelling away down the side of a seat and I would have preferred to have it in my ejection seat PSP than a rubber dinghy - especially when flying over desert badlands when a rubber dinghy is s0d all use!

AlR - quite!

LJ

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Slightly off point; 1966/67 RAF Khormaksar, Aden. The personal weapon for airmen was the Lee Enfield .303 plus 5 rounds. Every now and then the rounds that had been used for issue to the station guards were taken to the range at RAF Steamer Point and fired off. On one occasion when I was there only 1 in 5 rounds went bang. So then they issued us with 10 rounds!


Aaron.

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember the Pakistani ammo, economical with the powder, some rounds didn't leave the barrel let alone hit the target.

I remember firing the Sten, I was end of the line when I had a miss Fire, a second round fed in and the first fired out and the second fired right. It was fortunate the there was no one neat me.

[BEagle]

Didn't they put the bullets in the other end in those days though, PN?

[Pontius Navigator]

Not quite.

Actually at school I think we fired rather more than in the Service. I remember SMLE and Bren at Beckingham and snap at 400 yards. In Service only on the 25 yard range.

We also did .303 firing at school, no ear defenders in those days.

[MPN11]

We also did .303 firing at school, no ear defenders in those days.
... which is why my left ear hearing is severely diminished.
Sadly, not quite enough for a Service disability :{

For the subsequent 50 years of shooting, I protected my ears and eyes assiduously.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, me too but they paid me as we had no hearing protection in the 60s to mid 70s although my loss characteristic fitted gunfire more than jet noise.

[ian16th]

Sadly, not quite enough for a Service disability :{I have hearing aids in both ears. When I 1st had problems and suggested to the ENT spec that my problems were probably caused by being too close to to many of Roll Royce;s finest, he responded; 'That will have buggered up your hearing'

Not having the benefit of the NHS, I paid good money for that instant specialist medical opinion!

Being an ex-pat I wasn't aware of any possible compensation, until recently, only to find that HMG have stopped giving it out :eek:

[MPN11]

My retirement medical, with hearing test at specialists down Andover way, IIRC ... he said "you clearly have a problem, as you don't look at my eyes, you try to lipread to reinforce what you think your hearing." After all the technical bits, he then said "Yes, you have serious loss in this frequency band, which is absolutely typical of exposure to .303"
But sadly i wasn't quite deaf enough, so no extra pennies for me ;)

[Chugalug2]

I recall doing an audiogram on an annual medical. MO scans the printout and says triumphantly, "You're on helicopters, aren't you?". "No". "Then you must be on Hercules". "Yes". Evidently they both wiped out the same frequencies. In the case of the Herc it was caused by doing the walkround under the running ATM. Ear-defenders? No chance, though we were issued with little ear plugs to ram in our lugholes.

To return to the thread, on supply dropping sorties in Borneo the Army insisted we take loaded Stirling SMGs, one per crewmember. These we locked in the fwd loo...not an officer's weapon, don't you know! At the DZ the nav had to lie prone in the bomb aimers compartment below the Hastings Flight Deck, so we gave him all our bullet proof vests to lie on, reasoning that they, and if need be he, would safeguard us wot were up above.

[Fareastdriver]

When I was in Borneo in 1965 I was issued with a S&W .38 and two boxes of six round 1947 ammunition. These would struggle, and in several cases didn't, to get out of the barrel. Somebody told me that, with a little bit of modification, you use 9mm. ammunition.
I begged for some 9mm. from the Gurkhas and they obliged with a box of 1,000 rounds. A roll of blade tape used on the leading edge of the Whirlwind's rotor blades to prevent corrosion would tear easily into approx 5mm. strips. Winding these around the case and filling in the extractor indent of a 9mm. round left you with a ridge that would retain the cartridge in the S&W chamber when the hammer hit it.
You couldn't miss! The S&W is far better balanced than the 9mm Browning and the extra kick from having a higher charge was unnoticeable. Six rounds into a fuel drum at 25 yards was simple. The only drawback was that to unload the chambers you had to push the spent cartridges out with a screwdriver. The cases weren't reused and in any case they were a tighter fit when they came out than when they went in.
I put about 400 rounds though it in a couple of weeks without any ill effects on the weapon.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Off topic........as a cadet I was fortunate to get sent to Laarbruch for annual camp. Whilst walking through a secure building, I noticed a rack of what looked like sub-machine guns beneath a ribbon like plastic sheeting.

Does anyone know what the weapons were and where on base I probably was??? It may have been some sort of c&c building, the doors were thicker than that Tourist personality on here :ok:

[4Greens]

An issue was what happened to your weapon if you ejected.

[ValMORNA]

For a short period I carried a S & W .38 in Egypt; only drew it once, to show my intent to a menacing crowd of natives.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Canadian Arctic Rangers are still issued .303 Lee Enfields. The planned replacement was recently cancelled after complaints. Nothing works better in the cold. In practice, it is used against animals which would otherwise be higher up the Arctic food chain.

[Vendee]

Off topic........as a cadet I was fortunate to get sent to Laarbruch for annual camp. Whilst walking through a secure building, I noticed a rack of what looked like sub-machine guns beneath a ribbon like plastic sheeting.Station armoury? :E

Unless there was an exercise going on at the time (in which case there would be weapons everywhere), you were most likely to have been either in the police flight or the guardroom where the Aug Force weapons were kept, although they would have been predominately rifles.

[NickPilot]

I bought a 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1 about a year ago. Only put a few dozen rounds through it but it's unbelievably accurate with no optics. I cant imagine firing it without hearing protection though! :eek:

[Thelma Viaduct]

They were situated in a corridor, as if they were for quick use, pretty sure sub-machine guns rather than rifles. Memory is faded though, 22/23 years ago???

[Pontius Navigator]

Nick, the earlier version had a different rear sight and was in use into WW 2 having been a sniper rifle in WW 1 out to 1000 yards or so.

[Whenurhappy]

I was recently staying in Guest 'Officers' Accommodation on a base of a 'valued' NATO ally. Each room had a hotel-room type safe, which I thought was nice, until it was pointed out to me that all officers in this country are issued pistols on commissioning and they have to take them everywhere, and the safes were for weapons safe-keeping.

Unrelatedly, I don't know why so many people have got it in for the Browning L9 A1 9 mm pistol. A good round, a reliable weapon which is accurate (as much as a pistol can be). I think I am one of the few of my Branch who have every 'made ready' in anger; suffice to say I was trembling so much when this happened that I had to place the weapon on a desk to line the magazine up.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The Canadian Armed Forces went to the C7 (Canadian variant of the Shyte M 16) after deciding that the lovely FAL FN wasn't good enough. :confused:

I was on a small ship at the time and we were told to turn in our 4 FN's and 1000 rounds OPSTOCK in order to be issued the new weapons and ammo. We got 4 rifles but only 982 rounds of C 7 ammo. Turned out a 5.56 round cost 1.6 cents more than a 7.72 round, so the bin rats would only give us the dollar equivalent in ammo. :rolleyes: :ugh:

As for pistols, the Glock has pretty much taken over from the Browning Hi Power. The Glock is not very pretty but it works well although I personally liked the Browning I can see why the change was made.

[NutLoose]

Slightly off point; 1966/67 RAF Khormaksar, Aden. The personal weapon for airmen was the Lee Enfield .303 plus 5 rounds. Every now and then the rounds that had been used for issue to the station guards were taken to the range at RAF Steamer Point and fired off. On one occasion when I was there only 1 in 5 rounds went bang. So then they issued us with 10 rounds!


Aaron.

Could have been worse, at Bruggen when we had Special weapons on site we were live armed with 200 rounds in mags sealed in a heat shrunk thick plastic which was tougher to get through than a NAAFI sandwich.
You signed for 200 rounds and when they became life ex they were used on the ranges, that is where i found the actual contents of the mags varied by up to 4 or so rounds dependant on the armourer who loaded them being interested. After having tried cutting into the bags, we would have been dead in an attack before we even opened one.

As for the SMG, I thought that stood for Shoot More Gulls

[Pontius Navigator]

Aye, in Cyprus we had sellotape over the bullets.

Let me see, high temperatures, sticky residues, made in Pakistan, what chance a misfire and a blockage?

[Tashengurt]

At one point in the late '80s I managed to be qualified to shoot the SLR, LMG, SMG &SLP.
The pistol shoot was a bit of a joke though. I think my first couple of rounds posed more of a threat to people in St Andrews than the target!


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[ian16th]

I fired more rounds in the Rifle Club at Marham, than I ever did under Rock supervision on various ranges.

In the 'Rifle' club, we always finished the evening by blasting off the last of whatever ammunition we had bought for the evening, in pistols.

It was of course all .22 rounds.

[MPN11]

The S&W 38/200 was famously underpowered ... these barrels in my possession came from an old friend (sadly departed) who was Arm Eng (and whose career went from WOp/AG on Wapitis with his trust Lewis Gun on the NW Frontier to MoD as the Wpn Eng desk for all RAF rifled weapons up to and including the 23mm Mauser cannon and the 76mm gun on the RAF Regt's Toy Tanks ;)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/SampW38-200.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/SampW38-200.jpg.html)

[Whenurhappy]

The S&W 38/200 was famously underpowered ... these barrels in my possession came from an old friend (sadly departed) who was Arm Eng (and whose career went from WOp/AG on Wapitis with his trust Lewis Gun on the NW Frontier to MoD as the Wpn Eng desk for all RAF rifled weapons up to and including the 23mm Mauser cannon and the 76mm gun on the RAF Regt's Toy Tanks



I do wonder at what point the firer thought 'Is my shooting that bad that nothing is hitting the target?'

[MPN11]

:suspect:

As you can see, he fired the first 6 rounds to no effect. This is not unusual, as most RAF personnel can't hit the target anyway!

He then reloaded a further 6 rounds. Round #7 joined the others in the barrel, and #8 then went 'bang' ... but could not go far enough to allow the cylinder to continue to rotate, so the pistol was completely jammed up. At this point proceedings were halted :O

[Genstabler]

I recall standing on the wall of Spandau Prison, armed with a S&W .38 and 5 rounds of ammunition, watching Hess, Speer and von Schirach pottering in their garden. Never sure if we were there to stop them getting out or others getting in.

[Al R]

PN,

I remember a cavalry unit once bulling up its brass with Duraglit. I remember too, the effect of water, residue, oil, solvents and water on the round as the primer ignited. It was generally believed that some oils and lubricants could seep into the primer if the round was stored for too long and then affect or even prevent ignition, hence the doctrine of not (normally) allowing oil to come into contact with ammunition. Same with the chamber and barrel, both always wiped nearly dry before introducing the round into the chamber as oil/water etc could create overpressure when fired as the spec always included a certain friction between the case and chamber anyway (causing the trajectory to be high and creating a visual signature). I imagine Herrick etc has provided a wealth of practical experience which knocks any time expired Warminster Warrior insight into a top hat, and I stand by to be updated or corrected.

[Mogwi]

Like many, I used the 9mm Browning for most of my Service career but did supplement it on a number of occasions. I added a Colt 38 Auto (9mm short) in t'early 70s (same overall size as the PPK but slimmer - and yes, it did fit under a dinner jacket!). Drawbacks: small round and only 7 in the mag. Advantages: could be easily concealed, had a great butt safety and was better than a knife in a dark alley.

In latter days I packed a 357 Magnum with 4-inch barrel. Advantages: fitted in the standard issue aircrew holster and would take out a small tank. Disadvantages: had to buy your own ammo!

Ah, happy days!

[BEagle]

Back in the late 1970s when such things were still legal for properly licensed UK citizens (yes, really....), a mate with whom 3 of us shared a house was licensed to import a single handgun at a time from the USA.

His toy of choice was a Colt Python .357 Magnum with a 6" barrel. He also made his own ammunition, using a bespoke Black & Decker Workmate. It took a bit of getting used to, seeing our chum with his big black cannon! He kept it at the armoury of the station where we were based and invited us to have a 'plink' on the outdoor range. Excellent fun - and less of a recoil kick than I'd expected.

The lad who worked at the range asked me why my chum owned such a piece of hardware - I told him that we needed it for 'pest control'!

[NutLoose]

There was a guy at Odiham had a panzershreck in the armoury on a shotgun licence, he was an ex civilian armourer turned RAF Techy. Apparently when applying for a licence they asked details such as barrel length and was it smoothbore, then issued a shotgun licence, though he had no ammo for it lol

[NutLoose]

So which Glock does the RAF use now? This one? :E

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yUUlIJB-toY

[oxenos]

Saw a sectioned barrel similar to MPN11's in the late 70's, but it was a Browning, and the culprit was Pakistani ammo.
I ran the station shooting team (St.Mawgan) at the time, as a secondary duty. The Sterling SMG could produce surprises with poor ammunition. Usually with single shot selected, which was normal in shooting competitions, the gun would fire a single round and the breech block would blow back, re-engage on the sear, and be ready for the next single shot. If the ammo was under strength, the block could blow back to a point just forward of the sear, so that it did not engage. The spring would then send it forward, re-chambering and firing the next round in the magazine. It was not uncommon for the whole magazine (usually 10 rounds) to fire, and there was no way of stopping it except removing the mag, and by the time you did that it would be empty anyway. People who were not used to firing auto would put 1 in the target, the next near the top of the butt,and the rest would disappear in the direction of Newquay.
As regards hearing, all off us on Shacks were aware that the noise levels were not good for the ears, the pilots and F/Es in particular, sitting closest to the engines. When I had my leaving medical, having then spent the last 10 years on Nimrods, I was surprised to be told that my hearing was fine. The Doc said that exposure to high frequency noise did permanent damage, but that low frequency noise (i.e. Shack) did damage that rectified itself over time once you were no longer exposed to it.

[Whenurhappy]

So which Glock does the RAF use now? This one?

You Tube


Mr Fatty Sicko. Why are all these gun-bunnies overweight, have goatee beards and live in their mum's (sorry, Mom's) basement? Would you trust any of them around your kids?

[MPN11]

OMG, I do dislike those "spraying rounds down range' people. I'm sure it gives them a moist patch, but it really does nothing for me!

Oxenos ... I suspect we may know each other from Bisley. Were you in the RAF SP Squad, perchance? :cool:

[Typhoon93]

I was expecting that thing to be shooting the birds after half a second. Unbelievable accuracy for a fully automatic handgun!

[Rosevidney1]

MPN11, The illustration you gave appears to have the mortal remains of a Webley or an Enfield .38 and not a Smith & Wesson at the top which has a rigid frame and a cylinder that swings out.

[oxenos]

MPN 11 See PM

[MPN11]

MPN11, The illustration you gave appears to have the mortal remains of a Webley or an Enfield .38 and not a Smith & Wesson at the top which has a rigid frame and a cylinder that swings out.
You are, of course, correct.

The top one has no remaining visible markings, apart from "CAL .38", but clearly* has the profiles and foresight arrangement of an Enfield .38 Mk 1.

The lower is a Smith & Wesson No 2, well marked with Smith & Wesson and "S & W CTG", and bears the s/n 710685 on the underside.

Both, of course, fired the .38/200 round (or not) ;)

* Pistols of the World, Hogg and Weeks

(MPN11 removes anorak, and resumes normal service)

[RUCAWO]

Carried a .380 PP for four yrs until issued with a .357 Ruger Speed Six, never had a stoppage. Now have a .32 PPK , one stoppage over a thousand rds through it (it is a 1962 produced one though with only ten rounds through it when obtained last year :cool:) as for :-
Our previous weapon was the 9mm Browning. Much more robust. You could even shoot pencils out of them on exercises. Best thing was, it was heavier so it hurt more when you threw it at the enemy.

The RMP in Palace Barraks found a problem with this, two especially, the one who tried it with a loaded Browning and the one who recieved a 9mm through his shoulder along with shards of wood and carbon, I escorted the ambulance to the hospital.

My son now has my old PP issued to him as a PPW from the prison service.

[Pontius Navigator]

Practise?

Once you had a personal weapon, more practise?

[CdoGunner]

The 9mm Browning FN L9A1 was replaced for aircrew with the
L131A1 Sig Sauer. I liked the L118 myself.

[Genstabler]

RUCAWO

I think the idea was to fire a pencil using a blank cartridge, not a ball round! Blank 9mm ammo could be obtained from captured German soldiers on exercises and was much prized as it could give those not in the know a nasty fright!

[charliegolf]

Genstabler

I think the pointing and shooting of a 9mm blank with a pencil in the barrel would never be regarded as just 'officerly high spirits'! The possible outcome is cringeworthy.

I think CM was relying upon the energy in the firing pin to eject the pencil. Range: about 4 metres?

CG

[ExAscoteer]

The 9mm Browning FN L9A1 was replaced for aircrew with the
L131A1 Sig Sauer. I liked the L118 myself.

Having owned a Browning MkIII for Service Pistol matches and a SiG Sauer P226 for Practical Pistol matches I can say that, while the former was good, the latter is a far superior weapon.

[NutLoose]

I remember on exercise out in the back of beyond sitting around and having a bet with everyone (Money involved) as to what time the fun and games would start, everyone bunged a fiver in the pot then picked a time, all times close to stand too were picked, we'll all bar one who picked a really ludicrous time......
Middle of the night.... Bang, people jump to their muskets and WW3 cracks off in the dark... Blank cases flying everywhere, it was in impressive sight in the dark but as no return fire flashes were seen the war soon died down.... Bastard who fire the first round off ( at absolutely nothing ) at such a ludicrous time saunters over to collect the pot. :{

[Wander00]

What was his name - M..... McG.......................

[Cornish Jack]

Aaron - re. Khormaksar ammo, "Snap". On the range, 6 rounds, double tap, needed 14 pulls to get 6 bangs!!:{ Looking for reasons, was told that range ammo was drawn from X Group which, apparently, lived in caves in Sham Sham and was manufactured in the late 90s (1890s!!).
Herod et al - I also subscribed to the five loaded and one empty school. Fat, dumb and happy until a 'Rock' friend pointed that we were variously issued with S&W OR Colt and they rotated in different directions!!:eek: Could have been a load of codswallop but, thereafter went to 4 in and two empty - just had to remember to pull twice ... given our ammo though, it was irrelevant!:ugh:

[NickPilot]

Not codswallop CJ...Colts are some of the only revolvers that rotate the cylinder counterclockwise from the shooter's viewpoint. I keep a S&W .357 as my 'nightstand gun' (ahhh...the Colonies) and load it with 5 rounds, but with the empty chamber not being the one under the hammer, but the first trigger pull. I was taught that an AD from dropping the thing is pretty unlikely, whereas the chances to an AD from the hammer snagged on clothing etc is much more likely. Made sense to me, and I figure in case of bad things happening in the middle of the night adrenaline will ensure multiple trigger pulls, with the option of a pause after the first.

[Wensleydale]

Someone told me that Oscar Pristorious had a double tap in his bathroom, but that is just hear-say!......

[CdoGunner]

Having owned a Browning MkIII for Service Pistol matches and a SiG Sauer P226 for Practical Pistol matches I can say that, while the former was good, the latter is a far superior weapon. (quote)

I still prefer the L118 much better range however do miss the Stirling which show I have a sense of adventure.

[NutLoose]

I think the pointing and shooting of a 9mm blank with a pencil in the barrel would never be regarded as just 'officerly high spirits'! The possible outcome is cringeworthy.


yup, it would probably write orf the little eraser on the end of it.


however do miss the Stirling which show I have a sense of adventure

ahhh NI Christmas Trees and a certain Wessex always comes to mind when one mentions the Stirling...

[BEagle]

Although we did some classroom training with the Small Metal Gun at the Towers in 1968, I never fired the thing.

Whereas when I was about 15 or 16, we had several Sten guns in the school CCF armoury, plus a blank firing barrel which had a restrictor to ensure sufficient gas pressure was available for it to work in automatic mode. Unfortunately the blank barrel had cracked earlier, so a chum had taken it to the local gunsmith to see whether they could repair it. They said that they could, so one day he and I walked into town to pick it up. I assumed that the leather bag which my chum was toting was to carry the barrel back, so was somewhat surprised when, in front of someone buying shotgun cartridges or duck decoys or some such in Hintons of Taunton, he pulled a Sten gun out of the bag on the grounds that he needed to check that the barrel fitted OK....:eek:

It did, so back we walked to school. I do wonder what Plod would have said if he'd stopped 2 public schoolboys only to discover that we had a sub machine gun with us! On reaching school, my chum picked up some 9mm blanks and off we went to the south playing fields to test it. He loaded the magazine, placed it in the gun and cocked it, whilst I bravely hid behind the nearest tree. Then he fired it - but after 4 rounds it stopped as the barrel disintegrated into a couple of pieces of smouldering pig iron.

My main CCF activity was with the old WW2 and Korean War radios we had - rather safer than the Sten gun! We also had several Bren guns, but at least they were DP only and weren't able to fire. Plus the odd 2" mortar and a 3.5" rocket launcher with a somewhat dented dummy round.

Somehow I doubt whether schoolchildren are allowed to wander across Exmoor with CCF rifles these days....:uhoh:

[Wander00]

We had enough weaponry in our CCF armoury late 50s/early 60s to start a small war. We travelled on trains with No4 Mk1 Lee Enfields. We also had Brens and Stens in the armoury

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

CCF armouries - still true in the 1970's. I had a regular 6" group at 600yds with the SMLE, and wasn't even in the Shooting Team. We regularly trained with Bren, GPMG and grenades. Our school RSM was the ex-RSM of the Scots Guards, and our History master was an ex-Para SNCO who defended the Bridge at Arnhem. The Head Boy in my year is now a senior Royal Marine.

We could have finished a small war, never mind starting it. ;)

[Typhoon93]

Someone told me that Oscar Pristorious had a double tap in his bathroom, but that is just hear-say!......

What do you call a man with no legs?

Nothing. He might shoot you!




I'll get my coat........

[ericferret]

"Draw a Pistol (9mm Browning) from the armoury your going on the bank run as the guard".

So off I set feeling quite brave to the bank in Lisburn circa 1975.
I end up standing outside a bank in civvies with the weight of said 9mm causing my skiing jacket to hang down around my knees.

Thinks to self, to anyone in uniform I am a potential bank robber/terrorist, to any member of the IRA I am a military clown attempting to disguise himself as a civvy while clearly carrying a firearm. A very uncomfortable ten minutes followed which I made sure was never repeated.

[BEagle]

We referred to a certain (now deceased) ex-Victor captain's VC10 co-pilots as 'Dougies'.

"Why do you call them that?", he once asked.
"Same as Douglas Bader - no operating legs!" came the reply.

Which for those who don't understand meant that the captain hogged all the flying and expected his co-pilots to do the radio work and little else - they didn't get to operate. But he was cr@p on the radio, so perhaps not a bad thing!

[RUCAWO]

I think the idea was to fire a pencil using a blank cartridge, not a ball round! Blank 9mm ammo could be obtained from captured German soldiers on exercises and was much prized as it could give those not in the know a nasty fright!

The idea was to use no ammo at all, the fact that to fire off a Brownings action you needed a mag in the well didn't help, nor the fact that he cocked the pistol with the loaded mag in ,total moron.

[Al R]

The 9mm was a peach. I once had to approach an RQMS at Vitez garage and request a resupply of a mixture of ammunition. He smirked at his mates and asked me what had happened to the rounds I needed replacing. I told him we had been in an incident in the ZOS at White Fang (CAS mates might remember that one.. near IP Portugal maybe?) east of Sanski Most.

He put his feet on his desk and asked me for the empty cases. I had had enough at that point and told him that if he wanted them that badly, he was quite welcome to borrow my torch and get off his warm arse and go into the minefield and look for them. Martin Bell was there, and one of his camera team volunteered footage of the contact. That seemed to do it. I had to write out and sign a lost kit form though.

He got his own back on New Year's Eve. When I later approached him for a resupply of stuff like toilet paper, he asked how many was in the team. 4, I said. He nodded thoughtfully. Calculating that each man would only need to ablute once a day, over the course of a week that meant we only needed half a roll. He counted the individual squares out too.. seperately.

He smiled at me, I smiled at him and life moved on.. it was the little things. Happy days!

[mad_jock]

that pencil up the spout trick has killed a few.

Our PSI who was ex Falkland's and other things said that if he ever heard of one of us doing it he would hunt us down and break both our index fingers so that someone else had to wipe our arses for the next 4 weeks.

I to be perfectly honest I don't think he was joking. He didn't joke about these things including removing the pistol grip off a SMG for room clearing purposes. Which he even showed us with live ammo. Seemed quite effective to be honest with a full clip and it lobbed round a doorway with the working parts held back.

[Pontius Navigator]

At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards.

[mad_jock]

the old BFA's for the SLR were a bit dangerous as well.

Must a have seen 5-6 of them come off. Only one of them causing injury which was quite serious as it hit someone in his kidney from about 5 m away.

[Genstabler]

Golden rule. Whether empty (you think), loaded with blank or loaded with ball, never point a weapon at someone unless you are serious about using it.

[mad_jock]

The kidney shot was an ND to add insult to injury on a patrol and the person firing had just tripped. And it fired when they landed on there face in a load of peat with there Bergen on top.

The DS didn't actually go mental on that one. Something to do with the safety catch was deemed slack and the BFA had fatigued fractured leaving the attachment still on the gat.

Just bad luck it managed to hit him in about the only exposed bit of his back from the side. If he had actually pointed it at him it would have hit his bergan. But it was a combination of the bloke in front turning with the fall behind and the gat going off. But it was the end of his military career with one kidney removed. We couldn't work out how it hit him where it did with webbing and bergan on.

What did they do with the SLR's after they changed to the SA80? Sold or scrapped?

[Pontius Navigator]

MJ, bit of a flap one Taceval at ISL. Intruders had SLR with BFU, our ground crew just had SLR. When the enemy was captured they shared out the blanks and happily blazed away without BFU s.

As for not aiming at anyone, easy to say and harder to do in the heat of the moment. In fact you have to aim deliberately away from the target, you can't Fire indiscriminately.

[Union Jack]

At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards. - PN

Reminds me of the tale of the guy who was so proud of his CCF Lee Enfield Mark III with the silver band round the muzzle - until he discovered that the silver band meant that his rifle should not be used to fire blanks......:(

Jack

[mad_jock]

There is bits of metal and powder come out the front with blanks with a BFA/BFU. We got a demonstration using a bit of card at 6ft with one fired without a BFA on. It certainly isn't just hot air that comes out of them there were quite a few holes in the card. I remember them calling them Blank Firing Applicator or some such.

Anyway in my day it was the old school methods of weapon training and it went

1st transgression was a mild shouting at.
2nd huge bollocking.
3rd punch to the face.

But to be fair I can't remember anyone being gash with handling weapons. And there was very few punches handed out and those that were on the receiving end all seemed to deem it a fair cop and for their own good.

One 2lt that got posted in spent quite a lot of time running around with his rifle above his head due to technicality's about assaulting an officer. We all thought we would prefer the punch to be honest.

The idiot left in in the bogs one day, we didn't see him again after that. He may well be at the bottom of a earth toilet. And there was actually a phase 4 of the punishment ladder when Geordie really lost his temper.

[Mimpe]

You may know the usual arrangement in Northern Australia for the RAAF is to have a little back up for crocodile control in the event of unforeseen landings...

[Pontius Navigator]

Which was why, I guess, RCAF packed a small hunting rifle. Quite who was the Hunter I am not sure.

The film showed our survivor shoot and skin a deer. The pelt was stretched over a frame and then scrapped. Next he used the deer' s brains to cure it.

I guess time to rescue was measured in weeks :)

[Stanwell]

.
Interesting to hear people speak so highly of the Browning 9mm.

Quite frankly, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with it (unless I threw it) - and yet I was subsequently quite OK with pieces like the Colt 45 and Ruger 357.

It was suggested that the ammo we were issued at the time was left over from WWII.

BTW, interesting to hear about the firing-pin propelled pencil.

[NutLoose]

Pencils... pah

The real weapon of war was a good old 25 pounder, a couple of bog rolls for the use off and a thunderflash inserted into the breach... they would clear the hangar roof nicely..

[mad_jock]

Stanwel there were Brownings and brownings.

I spent 3 days checking and servicing the general issue ones.

They were in awful order working parts slack just in tolerances when drifting the barrels.

Now these were the ones people signed out and weren't allocated to individuals.

The individual personal weapons. Those a thick idiot like me never got near they were signed over personally to the staff sgt and only he worked on them. If they were even slightly out they had new parts and those parts would then go into the general issue ones when they eventually failed.

To keep them sweet you apparently needs to fire them at least every 3-4 weeks. For those left in the Staffys care he did this for them until they could reclaim them. It was something to do with the gun metal sweating. I am sure nutloose knows more about it than I do. I was just the dicked help when the stupid old fart managed to belt his thumb in the door of the machie wagon.

I suspect those that most of us shot were the general issue things which have an extremely hard life with nobody really looking after them.

[NutLoose]

Naaaa.... me engines :)

[MPN11]

Mad jock ... You're quite right. Some of the general pool were rattling bags of bolts. Neglected would be the understatement of the decade, as they were chucked into an ammo tin for conveyance to the Range for some random shooting and even worse cleaning.

Before I started buying my own, I had the fortune to be at a certain RAF Stn that held all the 'notional War stock' personal pistols for MoD officers ... Over 300 of them. With the cooperation of the SNCO i/c (a fellow Bisley shooter) I was allowed to trawl through the racks, and finally picked 3 good ones. They were then re-racked for my 'personal use'. I was then allowed to use the workshop to fettle them, which surprised the young armourers in there as this senior officer set to work with Arkansas stones and similar implements, after first fashioning from sheet copper the appropriate hold-back device (as per EMERs) to assist in stripping the hammer group. I was, of course, a paid up member of the Armoury coffee swindle :cool:

Dear Roger ... I suspect you may be long gone. A very nice man indeed.

[pzu]

At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards.

At my establishmant in Kenya (the Patch), there were a few instances of 'minor injuries' caused by bulleted blanks - normally these were deliberate acts :ugh:

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

It was also frequently alleged that the KP GSU used hem in 'Riot Control' :hmm:

[mad_jock]

What was that firing them regularly all about then?

Or did he just use it as an excuse to blat some rounds off?

BTW I was monkey see monkey do, then make a cup of tea for the master and repeat. To be honest I quite enjoyed my time with him and learned loads.

Mind you I have always liked doing something productive like that, cardboard boxs full of assorted ****e turned into something that at least looks the part.

[hunterboy]

For the enthusiastic amateur civvie who may be reading this thread, what level of markmanship is expected to with these pistols? I'm guessing targets would be at 10, 20 and 30m? (or more likely yards )
My own limited ability (at ranges in the US and ZA) struggles to hit the target at 30m.

[The Oberon]

Nice to see MJ's comments on brownings and BROWNINGS. During Corporate, on the range at ASI, I happened to see some members of the Hereford gun club firing their Brownings and the results they were achieving were incredible, as where some of their firing positions. Layed down, feet towards the target with head, shoulders and knees raised, pistol held in both hands, arms outstretched with pistol resting on raised knees. Not a good idea to be in front of that.

[mad_jock]

From my limited experience giving the target a scare at 10m and not drop the weapon was considered an improvement on previous efforts for some

And others it was about a 10cm group at 30m.

To be honest on the normal range day with us normal folk it was never very impressive. And getting them all into the target at 20m was considered a major success.

The best guy I saw was a civi weapons instructor from that lot that deal with strange weapons.

[MPN11]

Oh, dear ... how good/accuarate is the Browning?

Depends on whose hands it is in.

At the risk of receiving a lot of flak, I appear to have held the European Long Range records for several years (I later discovered) around 1980. We used to shoot at 100 (on a Fig 11) and 200 (on the 4ft frame) ... prone, of course. With any competence, 10 hits every time.

At 10m, a 2" group is easy - on 2 targets in 6 seconds. At 25m, slightly harder due to the short sight-base, so lets say 4" in 30 secs at one target.

Match conditions evolved in the 90s as it was getting too easy, with scores over 110/120 being quite common. Then it was made a lot more difficult, more operational and less like target shooting :)

/anorak

[ExAscoteer]

Oh, dear ... how good/accuarate is the Browning?

Depends on whose hands it is in.



In the '90s the Army Rifle Association Pistol Match (Match 11 IIRC) was 4x magazines of 10 rounds each against 4x Figure 11 targets. It was a 'snap' shoot including a move down from 25m to 10m (ie targets were engaged in various combinations at 25, 20, 15 and 10m).

Given that the 'bull' was worth 5 points, the HPS (Highest Possible Score) for this mach was 200 pts.

My average was 186.

Admittedly I used my own Browning MkIII which I had from new but, IAW the match rules, it was an 'as issued Service Pistol'.

[mad_jock]

I wonder what your scores would be with my cardboard box of mad_jock where the **** did this bit come from service specials.

[ExAscoteer]

With a properly put together MkI or MkII I would imagine my score average would be the same.

Sadly it was always an effort to get the Armourers to look after 'Team Weapons' properly.

Not for nothig does the song go:

A, I'm an Armourer.
B, I'm an Armourer.
C, I'm an Armourer...

[idle stop]

On exchange with the FAF in the 80s, we used to have a weekly 'sports morning'. Once every couple of months we would go to the local army range and do pistol 'training', with the French service issue 9mm, which came out of a crate of loose sidearms. With such knocked-about pistols, accuracy was certainly in doubt!
However, part of our annual 'fitness test' was, believe it or not, pistol shooting! For this our Boss would produce the unit's prized rosewood box, containing a pair of beautiful long-barrelled Colt .45 revolvers. Needless to say our scores were generally satisfactory!
And annuver fing.....in NI in the late 70s, mags for the Browning 9mms we carried could have only 10 rounds in them, rather than their 13-round capacity. (Supposedly as decreed by SRAFONI.) Apparently compressing the spring with the extra 3 rounds made it more likely we would lose a few....
General opinion was that, having used the 10 shots, throwing the empty pistol at one's PIRA opponent was the best chance of a result!

[mad_jock]

So as it appears my experience with a cardboard box of we would be better with a flintlock handguns isn't uncommon.

If the services aren't looking after them and are only using them as uniform additions to look the part.

Why on earth are they not buying dummy's for ****s and giggles to fill a holster use. And save the cash but look after the proper ones.

How much is 300 brownings worth?

How many pool ones do you reckon there are? must be 2000 plus across the three services.

About 500 quid each aren't they?

So that's a million sitting there in poorly maintained, inaccurate, abused weapons.

Which seems a bit strange to me because if someone's rifle appeared in the armoury in such poor order they would be on a charge.

[downsizer]

Won't be many pool brownings left as they are all going for disposal as we swap over to the Glock. Handful of Sigs left too...

[mad_jock]

Well if they look after the glocks like they did the brownings they will just end up in the same state.

[Like This - Do That]

Re accuracy at the range ....

Younger and slimmer LTDT a member of the University Regiment, avid watcher of Bodie & Doyle, first trip down the Sneaker Range. (In case it's called something else in other jurisdictions, a Sneaker Range is a track through a lightly-wooded range with 'DART' targets that pop up, kind of a pop-up Fig.11, chest-mounted control device carried by the range operator).

Instructed to double tap each engagement. Blood pumping, excitement level up, "can't believe I'm getting paid [not much] to do this!!!!"

"Load, Action, Instant, targets to your front, watch and shoot"

pop up BANG BANG missed
pop up BANG BANG missed
pop up BANG BANG missed
[started to get embarrassed]
pop up BANG BANG HIT!
[oooo - choice!]
pop up .... target not seen
pop up BANG BANG missed
pop up BANG BANG missed
pop up BANG .... slide to the rear, awkward silence [carry out the IA, get the weapon system working again "Oh fcuk where'd the target go?"

It was at this stage that I realised that the strange chortling sound I had heard wasn't anything ominous, it was the safety supervisor laughing out loud at my ineptitude.

Oh well. Rifle instead. Or better still, All Arms Call For Fire, or a CAS request. Bugger this pistol stuff!:8

[Heathrow Harry]

the point of issuing guns isn't to carry out target shooting - it's to scare the bad guys - who are probably even worse shots that our guys 'n gals

IIRC the HK Police in the 60's reckoned that you had to be within 5m of the bad guys (as opposed to a target) to have a 50% chance of hitting them first shot

On average people who were hit were shot at a range of less than 3m.........

In the Wild West there was a Sheriff who never fired his revolver - he used to walk up and club people with his .45 as they tried to lug it their gun out of the holster, remember how to fire it and then lift it up..................

[mad_jock]

For those that are still serving.

If you have a chance and find out that the slop jockeys are going to a range day go to it.

Combine 7 weigie "chefs" with a welsh WO2 infantry type range officer a load of brownings and smg's. With 9mm ammunition produced by some ex colony on some fair trade crap deal and a slight cockup with the amount of ammo issued. (how was I to know that they didn't need 500 rounds each? Anyway shouting at me and calling me a lady garden doesn't solve the problem, drive your own 4 tonner next time and get it yourself)

You have the makings of a top days entertainment and more than likely learn some new swear words or at very least some new combinations.

I have never seen so many stoppages, runways on auto when it was meant to be single shot. Of course there was never a stoppage on a full mag when it went auto mode.

As for the chefs I have never seen such a bunch of happy chaps in the face of possible death by a WO2. Best lunch on the range to boot.

3500 rounds and we didn't need to change the targets once. :ok: