National insignia...lack of.

[Stendec5]

Why is it that national insignia on Brit/US military aircraft now seem barely visible to the naked eye.
I just looked at a photo of a Herc' touch and going at Duxford (ahem, on some
other Forum). One could just make out a blue/red round spec on the fuselage and a sub-atomic sized blue/red bar on the fin.
Are we ashamed of ourselves or something?
I think my favorite would be the NEAF paint/insignia on the Beverly's, or the blue/white of the Transport Command Comets. Such confidence.

[Warmtoast]

In the old days aircraft wore their insignia and medals with pride - witness this 47 Sqn Beverley at Gan, photographed by me on 14th February 1958.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Beverley1.jpg


The nose of the aircraft sports the arms of the town of Abingdon (where it was based) and above the arms the ribbon of the GSM annotated underneath “Malaya”.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Beverley3.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

The white in the rounded glows nicely through NVG and by day it used to be a good bullseye.

The tone down reflects the last 20 years of combat operations.

[Courtney Mil]

Barely visible to the naked eye. Why do you think we paint our aircraft such boring colours? As PN correctly illuded to, no point in toning down the aircraft if you the paint a brightly coloured bullseye on it.

[NutLoose]

Have you seen the Back to the Future film, the one in the Wild West?

Well it's a bit like the photo he has in that, when the RAF was large and had lots of aircraft, the roundel was emblazoned over the whole side of the aircraft, bright and brash... Take the spitfire as an example.... now the RAF is tiny in comparison the Roundel has shrunk in proportion to the reduction in the RAF and is fading away as in the Back to the Future photograph.... Either that or the MOD has realised they can get the paint cheaper by not adding so many colour solids into the mix.

[Old-Duffer]

While we're on the subject but drifting slightly, I notice that our military personnel are wearing British and US insignia in tandem. If we can have a reasonable grasp of the badges of rank of the five principal US armed services, is it too much to ask that they do the reverse? I'm not suggesting that they can identify a 'Squadron Corporal Major of Horse in Dismounted Dress Review Order' but in general terms, it ain't difficult!


Old Duffer

[GreenKnight121]

Stendec5 - NutLoose - I suppose all that is why the US went to low-vis paint for the USAF, USN, & USMC tactical combat aircraft in 1982 then?

The way it was explained to us then (I was in FLIR school at NSA Whidbey Island, WA at the time) was that the new paint showed up less in IR as well as visible light (remember those Soviet IRST units in their fighters) - and that it incorporated RAM ingredients to boot.

How much of that was true as opposed to the official claims I don't know, but I do know from personal observations that you could see the aircraft in the old schemes far more clearly in the A-6E's FLIR than you could those in the new paint.

[Wensleydale]

OD - as I discovered on a NATO tour many years ago.... most Americans do not have a clue when it comes to other nations' ranks and insignia. Dual insignia at least shows them who an officer is which is most useful in an operational theatre! (And yes - I was known by my US rank of Captain and not Flt Lt).

[NutLoose]

Cross ranking used to be a bit of a bummer if you visited a Luftwaffle base, there a corporal and below would dine in the conscripts facilities and they were dire, as the system cross ranked you as their equivalent, hence everyone became Sgts for the visit.

[XR219]

Good point, Stendec... Is the small purple-ish patch behind the bubble window on this Merlin a roundel? I can't see one anywhere else!
http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/Content/sites/faaoa/pages/156/Merlin_Mk3_helicopter_in_formation_with_a_Royal_Navy_SeaKing _Mk_4__Picture_POAPhot_Mez_Merrill_16_sep_2014_large.jpg

[teeteringhead]

While we're on the subject but drifting slightly, I notice that our military personnel are wearing British and US insignia in tandem. If we can have a reasonable grasp of the badges of rank of the five principal US armed services, is it too much to ask that they do the reverse? O-D practical experience would suggest that it is too much to ask.

In Kuwait just before the 2nd Gulf "Unpleasantness", one wore Kuwaiti rank alongside RAF. My successor adopted US rank badges as well.

Come to that, much of the British Army seem confused by what they call our "bar codes". :hmm:

[ShyTorque]

I can think of one very good reason to tone down the RAF roundel:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/shytorque/birthmark.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/shytorque/media/birthmark.jpg.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, USAF too.

At Offutt the Det was all unranked.

Once, travelling through Hickam we were all in civvies. One of our ground crew took one look in the airmens abulutions where there were no doors, obviously an economy measure :), and up ranked himself.

In the officers facilities, suitable for limbo dancers, he removed his suit jacket, rolled up his shirt sleeves ready to wash. A major apologised and made way for him. I could hardly keep a straight face.

[ancientaviator62]

The MACR rank badge caused much confusion amongst our allies !

[Just This Once...]

Out of all the insignia the MAcr appeared to be the one that was instantly noticed and honoured.

Whether it is truly necessary for a USAF 3-star to salute the holder of such rank is up for debate but the respect looked genuine.

[Wwyvern]

In Northern Ireland in about 1972, we blacked-out the white of the Wessex roundels, and borrowed some Land Rover green paint to camouflage our white helmets. It was after that we had green flying gloves instead of the pale version.

Flying gloves make good golf gloves.

[Herod]

I don't know whether it still applies, but when I served with the UN everyone saluted everyone else. We had about half-a-dozen nations operating together, and it seemed the best solution (apart from nobody saluting anybody, but let's not go there).

[ian16th]

Fortunately in 1957 at Istres the Armée de l'Air, 'sergents' wore 2 stripes.

So this 20 year old RAF Cpl was treated well :ok:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/French_Air_Force-sergeant.svg/148px-French_Air_Force-sergeant.svg.png

[November4]

A lad I knew was accommodate in the Senior Ranks Mess for a night at an RN establishment.

He didn't enlighten them as to what rank a Senior Air Craftsman was equivalent to.

[Stendec5]

Of course I understand the toning-down/camouflage angle. But look at the Typhoons (1944 version) front line combat types right at the coal face, nice big roundels to boot.
However, I did forget that this is Cameron's Britain and paint costs money.

I'll get my coat.

[Pontius Navigator]

Stendec, remember who had the most anti-aircraft guns and fighters. Rounders were quite low key compared with the invasion stripes.

[MG]

The D-Day invasion stripes were a very temporary affair in which the requirements for deconfliction and avoidance of fratricide overcame the requirement for camouflage. The all-over invasion stripes gave way after 6 weeks to only being on the lower-surfaces, thus emphasising the need for concealment from above and deconfliction from below. The stripes were hastily applied with brooms or anything available and generally wore off over time. The roundels may have been large (no larger than on other ac) but the white had largely gone on the type C1 roundels.

The blue/blue SEAC roundels are proof that the white was too much of an attraction when the red centre was simply over-painted, so the toned-down blue replaced it; a precursor to the faded roundel introduced in the late 70s.

If you want to see aircraft with no markings at all, look at the Rhodesian Air Force from 1972 onwards.

[MAINJAFAD]

MG

British military aircraft had no national markings whatsoever in the beginning, until they got fed up with every British soldier and ship they overflew having a pop at them at the start of WWI. After it was found that large Union Flags on the wings and fuselage didn't work either (the ground army claimed that the red cross of St George looked to much like the Maltese Cross on the German Aircraft, that the French Roundel was copied (but in reverse)). The 'Invasion Stripes' were not really a new design either, a number of Typhoon and Mustang units had white stripes painted on the aircraft through 42 and 43 (in some cases almost to the same extent as what was slapped on almost everything in the first week of June 44). The reason was to stop them being engaged by Spitfire pilots who seem to think that any single engined fighter that wasn't a Spitfire must be an enemy one.

[MG]

And RAF aircraft over France in 1940 had white and black undersurfaces. It only goes to show that sometimes you need to be seen and sometimes you don't - black training ac, versus grey combat aircraft. Plus ça change!

[Valiantone]

Wait till DAVE gets here.....


all those lovely 617 Sqn badges in

Errrrm Grey!

Oh hang on, the US Navy painted a CAG F-35C I hear everyone cry.....!

Bet we don't do that, now that we appear to have bought the next 4 airframes, assuming we have enough to make a squadron by 2018:rolleyes:

V1

[Willard Whyte]

I thought it was because a lack of pastel colours would offend all the confirmed bachelors the raf is trying to attract.