AMS-BHX; Why FL 270?

[Stop Stop Stop]

Hi there

As a pilot for KLM uk we (believe it or not) operate quite often from Amsterdam to Birmingham. We are always allocated a non standard FL270 for this route. Nobody seems to know why this is the case. Surely it should be FL260 or FL 280? I am sure that there is a very good reason but perhaps one of the ATC guys or gals could explain to this thick driver!

Also, since NERC opened, I have noticed a distinct lack of the 'short cut' being offered, ie. before REFSO a turn direct to BKY or POTON maintaining FL240. It actually makes a difference of several minutes guys, and is always appreciated on these tight scheduled sectors.

[Cavemonster]

FL270 35 before LAM is what 132.6 London Middle Sector East aka sector 26 expect BHX inbounds at from Clacton sector aka sectors 14/13/12.

FL270 used to be FL260 until something happened airspace-wise at Drayton (prior to Swk)....can't remember what.

At Drayton it was simpler for us that you changed your Requested Level in the stored plan to FL270 - which your company did most speedily to their credit - as this avoided having to make a telephone coordination for each flight (which has to be done if you fly below the agreed level of 270). I know it sounds a bit like laziness on our part but at peak times we were working our parts off and every little bit of work-saving means the potential to take more planes.

At Swanwick, a telephone call isn't always required if you request a level other than 270 but overall it's still minimum workload if you fly at 270.

The concept of 'westbound levels' i.e. 260/280 doesn't really exist in practice these days and certainly not in westbound Clacton sectors.

As far as short cuts are concerned, in my experience at Drayton there were some individual controllers in Terminal Control who refused all short cut traffic. But otherwise the system was more flexible. There was an over-seeing role of 'Crew Chief' on Clacton sector who could quickly sort out the short cut with all sectors and move the data around quickly.

At Swanwick the system is a bit more regimented but not a lot. Fewer short cuts could be because
- it's easier to let you fly the way you've filed
- our bosses agree on systemisation* as the way ahead
- no overall decision making role on Clacton sectors
- I'm told that doing the short cut causes problems nearer BHX with sequencing or something!

* this is a different topic really but what suits you the pilot and me the controller (i.e. get rid of you asap) has to be seen in a sort of global picture so if you get a short cut and arrive in someone elses sector early you could cause an overload....in theory....

[Traffic Magnet]

Hi

To answer your question about FL270 we have an agreed level between our Clacton sector and London Middle Sector that all traffic routing this way inbound to BHX will be FL270 level 35 miles before LAM. This is just one of the many examples of agreed levels we use between sectors for the transfer and presentation of traffic.

Of course, we may alter these levels according to the traffic situation. If you want to cruise at FL260 - not a prblem. FL280 is usually available - we just need to descend you again.

Your flight plans often have FL270 as the requested level so we just climb you to that and leave it for the short distance through the sector.

The famous "short cut" can make our life easier as well. As soon as we get your details from AMS, and we are not too busy ourselves, we have to check with the TMA sectors if they can accept you that way. This can take a few minutes as we wait on them phoning back (they are the ones still located at old West Drayton). It's their decision not ours - all to do with how busy they are further down the line.

By going on the short cut you are going back through the sector you came through on the way out to AMS (133.45) and are therefore in the jaws of all the eastbound traffic they have - hence all the radar vectors to preferably keep you on the northern edge of it all. Sometimes, but not always the westbound controller may keep you on their frequency (118.47).
And if the sectors are bandboxed (the same person doing both) then you may not notice the difference.

If you're interested you're more than welcome to come visit us at Swanwick and see how the operation is run from here. :D

[foo fighting]

stop stop stop,

As a frequent purveyor of the 'B317' shortcut at West Drayton, could you tell me what sort of saving in time and miles this saves you ?

We with our trusty electriconic pointy ruler and measuring tape tool think it saves you about 15 miles.

For when it is offered or not, able answers from my Swanwick colleagues - definite factors being the arrival sequence of other traffic into BB and what sort of onslaught of TMA outbounds we would need to thread you through.

Could I slightly digress here and ask the S27 people why there is an extreme reluctance to accept BB eastbound traffic via B317 ?
Calling up electronic strippery aside it is pretty frustrating for Tc East to do the co-ordination and work for traffic that is 1) islevel at fl210 east or north east of DTY - 30 miles from our boundary and 2) gets vacant levels from you and often passes 5,000 feet above our airspace.

Point being if you haven't already guessed is why are we doing all the work in your airspace ? Cavemonster, to use your phrase there seems to be some inflexibility here.

[250 kts]

Sorry sss but I'm one of those who doesn't even attempt the short cut anymore. It can mean upto 5 internal phone calls to get approval plus the nause of getting the electronics to the eastbound sector-and all to save a few track miles!!

Imagine how it would be if we did this for all the operators eg BMA to NX, MSK to BB.

Also the London Middle Sector was established and one of its' main tasks is to stream the BB/NX inbounds. They could do this very well and then find that you are popping up around BKY.

It really is more trouble than it is worth nowadays,so just take it that unless it is VERY quiet you'll get FL270 via LAM.

[eyeinthesky]

250 kts' response is I'm afraid a result of one of the problems of the Swanwick system: lack of flexibility. The result of reliance on the electronics is hampering the service we provide to traffic.

If there are no eastbound traffic reasons as already highlighted by Traffic Magnet then there really is no excuse for not offering this kind of service.

The limiting factor is Welin's willingness/ability to accept the traffic via BKY. Again we sometimes run up against the inherent awkwardness of some people...

The Nerc side is not as difficult as all that:

Amend the exit FL to 240, target DAG.
Do 'print strip' and 'point out' for S12 and ask if they want to work.

Hardly very taxing, is it?

Couldn't agree more about the eastbound problem. What use is giving the traffic to S12 west of BKY at FL230 RFC? We can climb it all of 1000ft before talking to DTY and LMS. If it's a good climber then forward coordination is always better than back coordination.

[fatcontroller]

May I add another reason for the lack of shortcuts

In Terminal Control the Cowly / Welin sector is now working many more aircraft than previously anticipated due to the level capping procedures inposed from NERC.

The procedures result in many aircraft being controlled by Cowly Welin sector that would normally be at higher levels and worked by NERC sectors.
With TMA sectors bailing out NERC and having to work such traffic due to the lack of staff at NERC we do not have time or capacity to help out anymore with shortcuts.

In defence of NERC - and I must stress that this is posting is in no way a criticism of any controllers but highlights a system problem that is getting worse - Although there are official level capping procedures in place which cause enough problems on their own!, many airlines attempt to byepass such restrictions through Daventry's airspace by re-filing their plan at a lower level. It must be remembered that the restrictions are in place to protect the ATC sectors concerned and as TMA sectors are already very very busy, re-filed traffic only passes the problem from one controller to another and as such another sector goes under :(

See Ya

[niknak]

Here's a tip............ try doing at F240, file the appropriate SID from AMS to route via NEPTU, and you'll be amazed how hassle free your life will become.
Midland do it every day EMA - AMS - EMA.
Once you cross NEPTU, you are technically in the FIR , and you work London Mill', but before you give me the bull**** about not flying outside controlled airspace, why shouldn't you? :rolleyes:
You get a radar advisory service, and whilst the airspace is very busy with the military, providing you don't plan descent until about 20nm west of Norwich, you'll be OK.
In the event of London Mill not being able to work you, Norwich can provide the same radar service for you at no extra cost, as they occassionally do to BD.

[Stop Stop Stop]

Thank you all for your replies. It is certainly interesting to see the problems from the ground based guys! Maybe some of the discussion goes over my head, but as you suggest Traffic Master, perhaps I really ought to make an effort to visit NERC and see what goes on. (But who would I contact?)

It seems that the 'Short Cut' issue holds different stories for diferent controllers: some of you who have responded seem to think it is a good thing (gets rid of me quicker) and others think it is too much trouble (fair enough, I like a simple life as well). Personally I don't really care which way we we go as I'm not paying for the petrol but it sure does make you feel better when you get a short cut and you have an extra 3 minutes or whatever to eat your breakfast! To be honest, keeping high speed to the outer marker is the best way to save time (something we can do pretty well unlike the Boeings- the F100 can go down and slow down but its going up quickly we have trouble with!)

Foo fighting, your computer calculations may be correct, I cannot argue with you as I cannot see how you have worked it out, but it obviously depends on where the diversion from track occurs. Sometimes, AMS ATC will put us on a heading which looks suspiciously towards BKY round about VALKO, so when we reprogram our FMS on getting the green light from the London Controler, there is quite an obvious track milage saving, just by looking at the picture on our screen. Next time I do the route I will do a bit of playing about with the FMS and I will try and get some more accurate figures. Even 15 miles saves about 2 minutes and about 85 litres of fuel. That adds up over a year.

What I certainly agree with is these sectors are getting phenominally busy. On the TCAS display, there seems to often be a frightening amount of traffic converging on LAM/BPK area and I can only see a slice 6000' thick. Often the controllers are hardly pausing for breath between instructions. Quite a feat; I take my hat off to you all, I don't know how you keep the 'big picture' and do all the other tasks along the way.

Finally, Niknak, yeah maybe you have a point. I don't know why we don't operate on the routing you suggest. There has always been a reluctance by the company to go via this routing (except to SH). There must be a reason as I am sure it will have been looked at. We have a tactical reroute officer whose job is to monitor slots and stuff and refile different routings to avoid sectors where slots are being generated from. Maybe that department will have an answer and I will put it to them on our company forum and report back. I have a feeling that it is something to do with the fact of the 'bull****' that you mention. Our ops manual discourages the operation outside of controlled airspace unless absolutely essential and then at the commanders discretion. However, it is a requirement that RAS is provided and I am not convinced that is always the case from Lon Mil. I have to admit, it certainly can be a bit of a pain to go AMS - NWI; on first contact to Lon Mil you have to go through the whole "We are an F100 AMS - NWI.... request..." scenario even though it is a scheduled flight and the controller probably could set his or her watch by the timing of the call. At 8 miles a minute you don't really need to be wasting too many minutes.

Again it is a good point and I will pass it on.

[Hippy]

SSS,
Sending us a flight plan helps. I'm not sure whether your company does or not off the top of my head, but if we have a plan it obviously answers a lot of questions that otherwie need to be asked on the radio. Be aware that plans adressed to IFPS are NOT forwarded to LATCC(Mil). If you want us to receive it, EGWDZQZX needs to be added to the address list.

:)

[eyeinthesky]

I'd be careful of trying the off-route via Norwich option if I were you. EGNX is right on the edge of CAS and as such a handover to/from London Mil to/from EGNX Approach is easy and misses CAS. EGBB is a different story, as it is well nigh impossible to get there without having to coordinate with London Civil to cross B4/A2 (unless you want to mix it with Cessnas and Cougars at DTY at FL 45-). Then, instead of being traffic which is already in the system and heading in roughly the right direction you become a crosser to the same controller you would have been working via LAM/BKY. Take a look at the radar or TCAS picture northbound up B4/A2 and you will see why trying to cross the M1 on a friday afternoon is likely to be more successful!!

The general picture is as already highlighted: Some people will try and help you out with varying degrees of success for all the reasons already given, some will not bother. Whichever it is, just accept it. Some you win, some you lose.

Another thing: The same company sometimes files EHAM-EGCC via the CLN sector instead of via BEENO, probably to avoid restrictions in S11. The crew then ask for a shortcut on this route. It is altogether another problem due to your cruising level and the coordination sequence and will get denied on 99.5% of occasions. Forget it, and fly LAM-TNT at high level, the fuel saving will be better than low level (FL240-) via BKY.

[Standard Speeds]

foo fighting

Personally I would be naffed off if continually you are getting a/c from Mids north of Welin level at 210 as this implies (most of the time) nothing but laziness on the Welin controller's behalf.

Only when an a/c is evidently not going to make FL210 before the Welin box (usually due traffic outbound from TMA, usually the UKA F100s as well, sorry SSS!) do I not bother to get higher from East. And by higher I mean 270 or above if it can be given. Since NERC opened I have had DTY refuse to work many CLN deps off BB for whatever reasons (and they do work quite a few - so no slagging our erstwhile LACCers) but I have hardly ever had anyone refuse me climb to CLNs levels - as long as I make the calls to LMS and DTY. This helps Welin out and East - not to mention the a/c.

Yes - increased co-ordination it may be, but someone has to make the 'phone calls and I figure it may as well be Welin as they are able to see the traffic that DTY and LMS might have against further progress above 210. East don't have that luxury.

[250 kts]

eyeinthesky,

I don't see the reluctance to give the shortcut a lack of flexibility in the system or myself. As I said I will do it only if it is very quiet.

If the system as a whole is to work to capacity then it is these type of reroutes which will have to go. We must keep the phone calls to a minimum, not put traffic into the teeth of the outbounds and not compromise the streaming which LMS may have in place for the Midlands inbounds.

In my first reply I forgot the 2 possible phone calls involving EHAM so there could be upto 6 internal calls to save one aircraft around 15 miles. Sorry the end just doesn't justify the means anymore.

I guess I'll take some stick over this but sadly it is the way it has to be to shift the traffic efficiently. And why should one operator benefit from this short cut anyway? I don't see us making all these extra calls to cut the corner into LUS on a regular basis-just when it is very quiet.

[Stop Stop Stop]

eyeinthesky, I think the reasons that you give are the exact reasons why we do not attempt this routing. Jets and limited airspace coverage and light aircraft etc. do not work too well together. Much safer down an airway where the question of who should be there is pretty well known!

Your other point about the EHAM - EGCC route is pretty apt in view of recent posts on our company forum regarding the same. The original routing basically ELDIN - OTR - Centre fix 24R is the pilots preferred choice. On paper, the new routing REFSO - LAM - TNT is a new company reroute which (I think) supposedly helps remove a potential slot problem from one of the sectors, but also the company reckon it is a shorter routing. On paper, I think it may be so because our flight plans take into account the full arrival procedure from GOLES - POL - ROSUN - BURNI, which as we all know happens only once in a blue moon; if you get to POL it is unlucky! Arrivals from DAYNE are definitely better for the 06 end but again in reality, how often is that used in comparison with 24? The weather is always wet and windy from the SW as all CC operators know and have honed their skill at touching down on the 24R 'bump' to a fine art! To get back to the point, the company like one routing, the pilots another and as it is the pilots who ultimately decide which way they go, you will find a lot of requests for the reroute via OTR. If you can help then great. They will accept whatever level you would want them at in general....just ask, if you can get them the routing at some strange level!

250 kts, my original posting was merely to highlight that post Swanwick, the offers of the short cut have all but dried up. Of course, I am not advocating that my operator should get preferential treatment than operator X, merely that the shortcut is always welcome and there are guys flying for us for years on the same route who swear it makes a noticable difference. I reckon about 3 minutes saving...maybe it is more. Certainly on my aircraft (F100), burn rates between FL240 and FL270 are so negligible that I doubt you would be able to spot the difference, that is why we are happy to take the shortcut at this level.

Since I have been reading these posts, I hadn't appreciated just how complicated this 15 degree turn to the right was! I have basically given up asking for it; if it is offered, I'll readily accept and you will get my thanks, but I don't take it as a personal snub if it is not offered. If I were sitting in a darkened room instead of a bumpy noisy one I probably would take the same attitude, why bother with it!

It is just these sorts of forums that highlight the working relationships between pilot - controller. My opinion is that you do a bloody good job just getting us from A to B without bashing into someone going from C to D on the way, and still cope with such like as reroutes, weather deviations and shortcuts as well! These sectors must surely be some of the busiest in the UK FIR?

Maybe I must make one of these visits one day soon and see just how it all happens.

Regards

SSS

[foo fighting]

s.speeds,

you have totally missed my point - why are east controllers sorting out levels and co-ordination for aircraft that do not get anywhere near east airspace. You may wish to criticise the welin people - not my desire old chum

[250 kts]

SSS, I didn't mean to give you the operator a bad feeling about getting the short cut,and certainly not trying to pick out a particular airline.

I was trying to get over to my fellow ATCOs that in order to shift the levels of traffic which we will be expected to then we must standardise our procedures and these little niceties of the system will have to be a thing of the past.

All ATCOs that I know take a great pride in the service which they provide but a sthings get busier then standardisation is the keyword. :) :confused:

[Stop Stop Stop]

Well I guess 250 kts that you have just hit the nail on the head. Things get busier, staff get worked harder etc. The beancounters end up winning.

Still thanks for answering the question everyone. Will speak to you soon no doubt. ;)

[Easy226]

Stop Stop Stop, you fly right over my house on the approach to runway 33. W

[Easy226]

I frequently see and hear this plane on my radio (fokker 100!) Can you explain the callsigns to me as i think that they are quite confusing! I think one route is called UK2MS or something??
Most planes, including this one turn onto the ILS right over my house which is 10 miles out-very interesting to hear how it all works too!!

[Slippers]

Standard speeds,

I have to agree with foo fighting on the subject of fast climbing BB departures. While it is very noble of you to be working so hard, there are a couple of things that should be remembered:

1) That fact that there is no telephone line to P12 from the welin position makes the whole process even more drawn out and to me suggests that this is something that is not Midlands responsibility.
and
2) Correct me if I'm wrong but each LACC position has a dedicated planner whose sole job is to co-ordinated the passage of traffic though his airspace. He's got far more capacity and is in a far better position to make those phone calls than you. Especially as most of the time both Midlands and East will running without a co-ordinator (it's not just Nerc that's short of staff)

So come on sector 28 lets see you take some more of the BB's.

[foo fighting]

slippers,

spot on - never any complaint from me to welin persons just why s28 can't be arsed to take the traffic on themselves

[Stop Stop Stop]

Easy226

The callsigns to which you refer have been discontinued for about two years now.

The UK2MS was formed from part of the flight number and the MS bit was for AMS or Amsterdam. On the way out it would have been something like UK2HX, with the HX part of BHX or Birmingham.

There were obviously quite a lot of combinations and the company found that there were callsign conflicts, ie. where the callsigns of two aircraft could be so similar to cause confusion, ie 2MS or 3MS.

Also, the controllers at Amsterdam started to get a bit smart-arsed about it all and started clearing aircraft to land such as "UK Manchester clear land 19R....Hello UK Edinburgh, you're number two, continue approach..." etc!

It was quite funny at the time but clearly unworkable. These callsigns lasted no more than two months. For the past two years we have used callsigns such as (for Birmingham) UK11M, UK21M, UK82S, UK52S and so on. This appears to be a bit more random and nothing at all to do with the flight numbers (UKA2041,2,3,4 respectively). These have been designed to avoid callsign conflicts with either our own aircraft or those of other operators. It usually works but can fall apart if the flight is delayed and is operated at an unusual time. As the controllers on this forum will I am sure agree, there are a lot of UKA aircraft flying at any one time as all of our flights into and out of AMS are timed to arrive or depart at more or less the same time...the so called 'Wave System,' which is necessary for our customers to transfer onto longhaul flights without four or five hour waits....ninety minutes is typical.

I hope this helps.

By the way, you may hear some slightly different KLM uk callsigns on en route ATC frequencies, such as UK9YL which are a bit more random than the old callsigns and have less conflicts. In this case, if it has two letters it will be a buzz flight, ie. a BAe 146 or a B733. These are operated by KLM uk employees. Unfortunately, you will not get these flights landing at Birmingham.

see www.buzzaway.com for more information on our low cost airline, buzz.