Red Arrows to get F16s!

[Lima Juliet]

Yeah, right...

Red Arrow could be replaced by second-hand America F-16 jets says MoD | UK | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/521629/Red-Arrow-replaced-second-hand-American-F-16-jets)

What a stupid idea. Introduce a jet for a single squadron with its own unique spare parts supply and that is more complicated to maintain than their current training aircraft. I would also be interested to know about the MOD source that thinks that being 'supersonic' is a positive benefit for an air display aircraft! :ugh:

LJ

[orca]

What a ridiculous extrapolation of a few words spoken about one specific unit's role and a possible (not probable or potential) aircraft type to replace their current ones.

[Runaway Gun]

But still, one shouldn't be too surprised if such a crazy thing were to happen. This is the RAF remember?

[Archimedes]

The AFM article was written by a PPruner, so he may be able to add clarity, but even a quick read of the article demonstrates that it's another case of the Express's fixation with the Red Arrows.

To my reading, Tim Flatman's quote can refer only to the re-equipment of 736NAS. There is no reference at all to the Red Arrows, just as TF's observation - omitted by the Express - that his reference to F-16s represents 'wishful thinking at the moment' illustrates that the Express, once again, is at best misrepresenting through incompetence or incomprehension. The discussion in AFM appears to have nothing at all to do with possible re-equipment of one of the only two RAF units the Express appears to have heard of...

[chopper2004]

This is not the first time F-16 has been in our thoughts. According to a short paragraph in one of the 1995 editions of Air International, we were offered a squadron of F-16 AS interim measure between the F.3 and Typhoon ...(as with the Italian Air Force)

The most obvious problem is the AAR issue ...cannot convert Tristar or VC-10 for boom but then the offer also came with some KC-135

Cheers

[Evalu8ter]

Surely it's cheaper to contract out the 100 Sqn / FRADU role?

Something like this perhaps?

Discovery Air Defence Services - Home (http://www.discoveryair-ds.com/)

I'm sure if the contract specified AI equipped aggressors then either the rumoured ex-GAF F4s or some used F16/18 or MiG-29 could be included in the mix?

Can't see the capital spend to replace the airframes, but a 5 year contract might attract enough interest.

[Lima Juliet]

Why would you spend £18M a copy for old and knackered Danish F16s when you could have shiney new Hawk TMk2s for ~£6M? You can put some kit in the T2s, like a RHWR and a simple EW Pod to emit beeps and squeeks to emulate an aggressor - give it the same datalink and it can receive the PPLI from the Blue Forces it is attacking and then that cuts down on the weight penalty of lugging around a big RADAR?

You would also then have a sustainable fleet of Hawks rather than the pitiful amount we have for MFTS?

LJ

[chopper2004]

or as EVal suggested - there are a number of other companies around such as Draken Intl

Draken International (http://drakenintl.com/)

At Farnborough they signed a contract with these lovely folks (yep I did shake their hand before and after pic) below below on the 3rd day to buy more L-159E :) (one used to deal with a lot of these folks re the Sikorsky s-76 production years ago). The deal is for 28 airframes - 24 airworthy and 4 broken up ..all inclusive USD $25.8m .

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_1869_zpsc17bdec3.jpg

Also the providers of Alpha Jets to the premier of Marvel's Avengers - , being Air USA and they DO have Hawks :)

Our Aircraft | Air USA (http://air-usa.com/aircraft)

Cheers

[Lima Juliet]

Yup, sorry, that £4-5M was the through life maintenance costs per aircraft (£120M). The unit cost of T2s was £16M (£450M for 28 aircraft). However, there would still be savings to be had by having a bigger fleet of similar aircraft rather than introducing an ageing, more complex and different type in small numbers.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Chopper

OK, OK, where do I sign? :E

LJ

[CH2]

Nothing new with that idea!

Bones to the grave as the Cobra takes on the Viper ? FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=287&t=55020&p=350936&hilit=Bones+to+the+grave#p350936)

[Genstabler]

I'd have thought it would be in BAe's commercial interests to offer an austere Hawk T2 optimised for aerobatics at an attractive price. There could be interest from a number of air forces, such as India and Saudi as well as the Reds.

[Matt2725]

I suspect this is the MoDs way of forcing the hand of BAe to offer the T2 at a slightly more attractive price.

BAe also has a large business stake in the Red Arrows so I can't see them letting this one pass.

[Willard Whyte]

Given the price that BAEs charges for additions to basic spec is somewhat akin to Porsche's mark-ups, a stripped out Hawk would no doubt cost more than a standard version.

[orca]

Evalu8ter,

You might be right about contracting out the FRADU role, but that isn't 736's job. 736 uses those duties traditionally assigned to FRADU and NFSF(FW) as a vehicle to provide the RN with a core of current and competent FW operators. There are other places to train and maintain your maritime expertise such as the USN and Marine Nationale, and there are one or two slots open in the Typhoon world - but unless you have a NAS at the hub you don't have a cadre.

But the headline is that everyone here agrees: Lt Cdr Flatman made one remark about his own unit, never mentioned the RAF or the Reds, or war fighting, or funding and for what he is tasked to do a second hand Viper would be fine.

[Navaleye]

Or just bin the Reds and have another proper squadron rather than a pointless flying circus. We have some tranche 1 typhoons coming out of service soon. Use those if need be. The F16 idea is absurd.

[P6 Driver]

Or just bin the Reds and have another proper squadron rather than a pointless flying circus
Not keen on them then...

In your opinion, should ALL display teams of any kind be disbanded, or is it just the Red Arrows you'd like to see the end of?

[Evalu8ter]

Orca,
Duly noted - wasn't the previous incarnation of Fradu / 736 joint civ/military? Might be quite useful to have a high performance AI jet as the interregnum betwixt Harrier and Dave with a mixture of guys flying it...

Naval eye,
Nice - should we burn Victory as firewood too?

Chopper and LJ,
I remember those ladies from Farnborough. As they were clearly subject matter experts I did consider seeing if they were available for some 1v2 DACT but then work got in the way again....shame, would have been some interesting post merge manoeuvring!

[Navaleye]

Surely the defence budget exists to provide defence. Buying new aircraft for display team is a waste of scarce resources. That money should be spent on the front line. That applies to all three services unless they can be funded by other means.

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ...

All smoke and mirrors mate ... the 'truth' is closer to hand :E

Proposed Scheme : Red Arrows (http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/fantasy_5/F407_F35A_Red_Arrows.jpg)

But don't tell the Media :oh:

[engineer(retard)]

1995 again :ok:

[Genstabler]

"That money should be spent on the front line".

A rather naive statement Navaleye.

What constitutes "the front line?" In the days when swords were the only weapon possessed by a primitive army, your suggestion might have had some value in buying more swords for the foot soldiers who would employ them on the battlefield in an uncomplicated slugfest. However, as soon as disposable munitions arrived, such as arrows, and tactics and mobility started to develop, a large and ever increasing amount of support became necessary behind the front line. Nowadays the proportion of infrastructure, logistics, sustainability stocks, training, management, recruiting and political education needed to maintain a minimal front line capability is simply mind boggling and hugely expensive.

Napoleon, who understood a thing or two about the effective employment of state violence, said that in combat the value of the moral compared to the physical was as 3 to 1. The part played by ceremonial, pomp, displays of martial qualities etc in strengthening a nation's defence capabilities should not be underestimated. They contribute significantly to front line effectiveness by encouraging pride, confidence, strength of resolve and self esteem, both within the military and amongst the civilian population without whose support we would have no defence.

Getting rid of ceremonial uniforms, parades and display teams would be an empty, meaningless gesture, would not help the front line in the slightest, indeed it would degrade its effectiveness.

[lmgaylard]

Dear all.
As the author of the Airforces Monthly article on 736 Naval Air Squadron I would like to clear up a couple of points;
At NO time during my interview with the CO did he, or I, mention the RAF Red Arrows! Why would we when the article focus is the role carried out by the naval 'Aggressor' squadron. I still have the recorded interview on my dictaphone and the original article which I submitted to the editor. Both prove that the 'Reds' were never spoken of.
The mention of future replcement of FAA and RAF 100sqn Hawk T1 / T1A for their respective roles being older 'Block' F-16 was a wishful thinking idea. As most of you will know, the possible replcement aircraft is on-going and no formal announcment has been made, and is not expected for some time.
I have been inundated with messages and phone calls today regarding the very poor on-line article and I'm very annoyed that again the 'Daily Fail' and others can write such drivel!
Again I will state that at NO time did Lt Cdr Flatman mention the RAF Red Arrows.
Thank you all.

[Willard Whyte]

It was the Daily Express.

[gamecock]

Mail are running it too.

[typerated]

It is probably way too late now but I have thought for a while there is a place for the Gripen (or similar) in the RAF (and RN) inventory.


Numbers are ever decreasing and a high end mix of Typhoon/F-35 force is making the problem worse. we seem locked into the we can't afford many so it had better be capable - oh there are very expensive, we can't afford many loop.


Running a force of Gripens as well as being a much cheaper alternative to Typhoon/F-35 for many less demanding tasks could also free up say the Typhoon force for more deployments by taking over UK QRA if needed.


From what I have read about the Gripen lite proposal to replace the T-38 for the USAF there is a train of thought of a first tour on a Gripen would be much more economic while the driver learns his trade.


How much do you save by getting Hawk T2 instead?

[Typhoon93]

RAF Red Arrows BAE Systems Hawk T1 replacement - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/66993)

[Genstabler]

Not a well constructed argument or grammatical petition so, though I heartily support the intention, I am not disposed to sign it.

[salad-dodger]

Really not very well written. I'm surprised that anyone would sign that.


S-D

[Typhoon93]

Normally I wouldn't share it, however it's the only one out there that I can see.

I would start a new one but I am in absolutely no position to be bringing issues to light to the government at this moment in time that is Forces related - I feel it's not my place.

Perhaps one of the currently serving Officers (or even past) on here could start a new one, who have had experience with jets. Their opinion will carry more weight, I suspect.

[Rhino power]

Anyone who thinks a few signatures on an e-petition, is going to make the slightest bit of difference to whichever government of the day decides what the Red Arrows are going to fly next, is obviously partaking of something of a very strong hallucinogenic nature!

-RP

[Fg Off Bloggs]

chopper2004,

This is not the first time F-16 has been in our thoughts.

Not in MOD's thoughts, chopper old chap! Just in the thoughts of one mischief-making and then soon to be retired Air Marshal (Wh**ky W*lk*r) who along with Portillo's once bankrupt and re-generated multi-millionaire military adviser (the late David Hart) thought that F-16 was a better platform than EFA (now Typhoon). They also had the ill-found notion that the planned SR(A1236), now Storm Shadow, would be better launched from underneath a main spar strengthened Tristar! I know this is true because I was summoned to Portaloo's office on the 6th floor to brief him and them on SR(A)1236 and refute their argument!

They were doing nothing more than being a disruptive influence and mischief making to their own advantage!

I would not, therefore, put any credence in the notion that 'the MOD' had F-16 in its thoughts in the 90s. The offer you mention had been stoked by the AM (who had nothing to do with procurement at the time) and Hart talking out of turn with the USAF!

Bloggs:eek:

[Willard Whyte]

Mail are running it too.

So did The Lincolnshire Echo

[Courtney Mil]

Nine Airbusses in red. Then the guys could get their ratings.

[chopper2004]

Cheers Blogs,

Though laughingly the pipe dream about the Tristar being used as an airborne cruise missile launcher reminds me of the proposal across the pond :)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/2011_06_24_Spotlight_L1011_CruiseMissile_1267828237_7782_zps 5338929d.jpg

It would have made a certain company which owns my local airport very very happy as they modified one Tri-Motor as a launch vehicle for Stargazer :)

So everything was a wee wet pipe dream re F-16 in RAF service ....:eek::{

Cheers

[Vendee]

the MoD has more than enough cash, it just needs to be allowed to spend it wisely.I suppose there's a first time for everything.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why on earth would anyone swap 20 yr old teased out Hawks for 20 yr old teased out F16s?

[The B Word]

Because the Hawks are twice that with an ISD of the mid '70s! :eek:

The B Word

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, it was well over 30 years ago that I did my advanced flying training on Hawks. Also the new block F-16s aren't that old.

[O-P]

Genstabler,

When I was sat in the desert with vast amounts of bullets and mortars whizzing past my ears (not ours btw), and no body armour, thanks to lack of funds in the budget (we shared, I kid you not), the first thing that made my heart glow was the thought of my No1 and 5 uniform sat in my wardrobe back in Blighty. My soul sprang heaven bound as a dreamt of being met after my deployment with a Band, a lovely parade (medals and gloves) and a beautiful flypast...a motorcycle/parachute display team also entered my dream.

What utter tosh! The finery of the Victorian age has no place in our modern, cash strapped military.

[Parson]

The sad fact is that the days of the Arrows are numbered. It is very difficult to justify equipping an aerobatic squadron with new or even second hand aircraft when we are struggling to provide a viable number of front line squadrons.

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the 2015 line up has a 3rd year pilot at No 7, presumably meaning he will fly a 4 year tour? Were this years newbies deemed not up to the job?

[airborne_artist]

I'm with O-P. My old regiment has no band, no goat with fine raiments and we didn't march about at all as I recall.

We got quite a bit done though :\

[Roadster280]

I'm with O-P. My old regiment has no band, no goat with fine raiments and we didn't march about at all as I recall.

We got quite a bit done though :\

Yes, but that was The Regiment, as opposed to a regiment. The one that has Tprs rather than SACs.

Oddly enough, my old regiment didn't have a band or a goat either. Though we did do quite a bit of marching up and down the square for no real reason other than to keep the sergeant majors current on the use of their pace sticks (for pointing that is, not actually measuring paces). At Corps level we had a jolly good band.

[Courtney Mil]

I can just see the reaction to the Colonel that says, "No, we can't do trooping colour, I spent all the money on important stuff like body armour, guns and bullets."

[Martin the Martian]

Next time you're at an airshow, or even better an non-aviation event that the Reds are displaying at, watch the reaction of the crowd when they're on. I was up at Dawlish for the Lancs in August, and watched it all from the steep hill to the west of the town. The public were going bananas while the Reds did their display.

The team also flew a display over Falmouth this summer, and my understanding is that the town was packed out. Certainly the words 'Red' and 'Arrows' seemed to be bandied about a lot for the next few days. Last year one of the Household regiments paraded through a local town while they were on a summer camp. I've never seen the town so busy, and the reception they gave was amazing.

No, such things will not replace body armour etc, but they will keep the military in the public mind for a lot longer after the last guys (and gals) are home from that wretched part of the world. Without the Reds, or HMS Victory, or the Household Cavalry, the ever-shrinking armed forces will become less and less visible to the population as a whole.

[Genstabler]

You are right of course. Any frippery that detracts from the schwerpunkt is an unnecessary distraction, wasteful, politically incorrect and should be discarded.

As for uniforms, it is about time they were uniform, and that includes British army officers' socks. Do away with elitist and divisive maroon, blue, green, sand berets, coloured trousers, kilts, cap badges, wings and badges. Suppose we'll have to keep badges of rank until the revolution, but there should be none of this craftsman, trooper, rifleman, corporal of horse, lance sergeant rubbish. Uniform! That's what it's called, and that's what it should be.

That should save enough money to pay for one new truck.

[Courtney Mil]

...but nowhere near enough to pay for the committee required to decide what colour it should be...

[Genstabler]

CM

Looked up your profile to check your credibility and discovered the link to your journal. Wow! Thank you for sharing. I look forward to a very interesting read. We didn't meet at a recent EOSGN did we?

[Roland Pulfrew]

As for uniforms, it is about time they were uniform, and that includes British army officers' socks. Do away with elitist and divisive maroon, blue, green, sand berets, coloured trousers, kilts, cap badges, wings and badges. Suppose we'll have to keep badges of rank until the revolution, but there should be none of this craftsman, trooper, rifleman, corporal of horse, lance sergeant rubbish. Uniform! That's what it's called, and that's what it should be.

I was about to put the Rant Switch to On............

and then I read:

That should save enough money to pay for one new truck.

And Calm. :\ :=

[airborne_artist]

Next time you're at an airshow, ....

Without the Reds, or HMS Victory, or the Household Cavalry, the ever-shrinking armed forces will become less and less visible to the population as a whole.

Because bread and [military] circuses really frighten our would be aggressors :}

[RimBim]

Someone will give in at last and the new aggressor will be - the Hunter Crew!
Bless 'em.

[Pontius Navigator]

Digressing to uniform, a long long time ago the MoD decided just that.

1st all 3 Services would wear the same, say a flying suit. 2nd, if not the same colour it would be the same pattern and same cloth. 3rd same cloth if a different colour.

This was embraced by the Army, Navy and Air Force. The Marines said the standard cloth was unsuitable and they needed twill or some such. Oh and there was a chap called Lovat who had a fetching shade of green.

Then the Army opted for 'free' cabbage kit, the RAF (aircrew) opted for 'free' grow bags and the Navy did their own thing.

But it fell to the RAF, with a very simple uniform to have 4 different coloured blue shirts, 3 of trousers, and countless styles of woolly Lilly.

[hulahoop7]

Couldn't the batch 1 Typhoons be retained for this purpose? They actually could be repainted in the event of a crisis, which currently isn't the case (whatever the recent articles state).

[Double Hush]

Like it or not, the Reds will be around for a while (IMHO) as they are indispensible to the UK plc brand. On the back of the re-opened production line, T2s are on offer for a reasonable price and so they will (probably) get re-equipped with these. If the MOD have any sense, they will add on a few extras to cover attrition and to give Valley the number of T2s it should have had in the first place. The one thing that could well kibosh the whole thing though is a lack of aircrew. Every year, suitable candidates become fewer and fewer as the front-line shrinks. How long before the number of applicants = spaces available?

[Courtney Mil]

Genstabler,

Don't be too hopeful, Buddy. It's a work in progress and work is certainly required.

Haven't been to much recently due to relocation to France. But I'm easy to know/find as I don't use a pseudonym. Anyway, thank you for your kind words.

[Willard Whyte]

Couldn't the batch 1 Typhoons be retained for this purpose? They actually could be repainted in the event of a crisis, which currently isn't the case (whatever the recent articles state).

Not sure how viable that is, BAES are hoping to use T1 bits 'n' bobs in the manufacture of T3s.

[O-P]

My best suggestion is that if BAeS want to sell their products, they (BAeS), should have their own display team using their own aircraft. Use retired RAF crews if required.

When was the last time you bought a car based on the performance of their F1 team?

The cost of display teams, colourfull guards, men with recorders and triangles, nearly forgot goats, has no place within the current Military budget. If you want that cr@p, then apply to the National Lottery!

[Typhoon93]

The cost of display teams, colourfull guards, men with recorders and triangles, nearly forgot goats, has no place within the current Military budget. If you want that cr@p, then apply to the National Lottery!

Okay, I'll bite...

I disagree. All of the things you mentioned demonstrate the utmost professionalism within the Armed Forces, and above all else they generate interest for the Services. Young children want to be fighter pilots, soldiers or the Captain of a warship. They also keep the Services in the thoughts of the general public.

Seeing RAFAT perform at an air show, the Guardsman outside significant buildings or a band playing at a homecoming parade makes the public tick and it brings communities together who otherwise wouldn't entertain each other.

[Roland Pulfrew]

My best suggestion is that if BAeS want to sell their products, they (BAeS), should have their own display team using their own aircraft. Use retired RAF crews if required.

And herein lies the problem: do you think small (as in the MOD) or do you think big (as in the whole nation)? A recent report basically suggested that, when viewed as a nation, the RAF's Tornado fleet was a free good (same probably applies to the Hawk and 1 single Red sqn in particular). The export sales, spares support, maintenance, upgrades etc had made more for the nation (tax return to the government, people in employment not sitting on benefits, those in the supply chain earning their way and paying tax rather than being on the dole etc etc) than the entire fleet had cost the government through life. The same, as I 've said, is probably true for the Hawk and may well be the same with the Typhoon in the future.

The cost of running the Reds - peanuts in comparison to the sales potential. Now if only BAES would think big and offer to re-equip the Reds with the T2/127/128/131 at marginal cost, the benefits (for the company and the nation) might be highly lucrative.

[XR219]

Meanwhile, in other news, the Indian Air Force are planning to order 20 new Hawk 132s to equip their aerobatic team, although they seem to being having problems with their documentation...

Hawks Fly Away With India’s Jet Trainer v2 Competition (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-to-float-2nd-buy-for-jet-trainers-05340/)

[O-P]

I disagree. All of the things you mentioned demonstrate the utmost professionalism within the Armed Forces, and above all else they generate interest for the Services. Young children want to be fighter pilots, soldiers or the Captain of a warship. They also keep the Services in the thoughts of the general public.

Seeing RAFAT perform at an air show, the Guardsman outside significant buildings or a band playing at a homecoming parade makes the public tick and it brings communities together who otherwise wouldn't entertain each other.

Here is your problem, you have never served.

I didn't join because of the Reds, a bloke twanging away on a steel triangle or a band tooting away as a ship comes home.

If a young kid, like I was, wants to be a Pilot, then blokes spraying cherry smoke in the sky shouldn't make him join. He already has that desire.

If you ask any Sqn Cdr, Platoon Cdr or Captain what he wanted on his return from his deployment the answer would be "Job Done, and all bodies safe with their loved ones"

Money should be spent on the pointy end, not prancing about in bright red camo jackets and a big hairy hats... When was the last time we took horses into combat?

If you join, your opinion may change when your F35 is grounded, through whatever, but the Reds still make the public clap.

Idiot

[AtomKraft]

XR219.
I was surprised to learn that India builds it's own Hawks these days.

[Mil-26Man]

When was the last time we took horses into combat?


http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/HorseSoldier01_zps60327fd4.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/HorseSoldier01_zps60327fd4.jpg.html)


Idiot


You said it...

[Tashengurt]

A*sehole alert! :ugh:

[Martin the Martian]

No, no. Let's do away with them all; the Reds, the BBMF, the QCS, the Household Cavalry, the various bands, participation in airshows, the Edinburgh Tattoo, Trooping the Colour, anything like that because it doesn't put anything into the front line.

Then, watch the recruiting numbers crash, donations to service charities plummet, general public disinterest in the armed forces fall to zero, the defence budget fall away as the forces are no longer in the public eye. Won't that be great for morale?

By the way, O-P, you say that "If a young kid, like I was, wants to be a Pilot, then blokes spraying cherry smoke in the sky shouldn't make him join. He already has that desire."

How does he get the desire in the first place? Fast jets and big transport planes are not exactly a common sight over much of the UK these days, so shall we rely on Sunday afternoon showings of The Dam Busters?

[Roland Pulfrew]

If a young kid, like I was, wants to be a Pilot

And yet again, here is the problem. What if he doesn't know he wants to be a pilot? What if he doesn't know he wants to join the RAF? Maybe he doesn't want to be a pilot but sees the Reds and says "I want to be part of that" - maybe as an engineer. Or as an air trafficker. Or even, maybe, God forbid, as a scribbly! Its not all about pilots you know :E

[Faithless]

Four pages into this thread and nobody has posted a image of an F16 in the reds scheme :confused:

[orca]

Does anyone have any cold hard facts? Do we have any idea how many of us joined because we saw an air show - or are we just surmising/ guessing at the actual effect of display teams and public duties?

The trick here of course is to identify that pprune may not be a microcosm of the serving military and our own feelings may not map in any way shape or form to others.

[Wander00]

Orca - do you mean to infer that PPrune followers are statistically screwed, sorry, meant "skewed"

[Vendee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by O-P
The cost of display teams, colourfull guards, men with recorders and triangles, nearly forgot goats, has no place within the current Military budget. If you want that cr@p, then apply to the National Lottery!
Okay, I'll bite...

I disagree. All of the things you mentioned demonstrate the utmost professionalism within the Armed Forces What.... even the goats????

[barnstormer1968]

Why are you questioning the value of the two horned master race ?





:)

[4mastacker]

Labour's Vernon Coker was on Radio Lincs this afternoon and stated that if a Labour Government is returned at the next election and if he was the Defence Minister in that government, the Red Arrows would not only be retained but they could have whatever aircraft they wanted when their current mount need replacing. His line was "They are the very best of the best of British".

It's very easy for an Opposition Minister to make that kind of statement but IF his party is elected I wouldn't put money on it actually happening.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, I'm gobsmacked. I honestly thought this whole idea was just a load of tosh. So imagine my surprise to find out how close this is to going ahead. Suddenly being a Red just became a way more attractive prospect. Hopefully the paint scheme discussion won't hold it all up.