Government funded flight training: the loan to nowhere

[Five dollar shake]

Greetings from a first time poster / long time viewer.


Over the past couple of years, I have contributed countless hours training students under government funded programs through the fee help scheme. Whilst some of them could barely fly a kite with the cash they were given, overall it has been a pleasure to train most of them. My issue is that it pains me to see my company pumping out CPL’s on a daily basis courtesy of the taxman, only to have them walk into a dead industry with $100k loan (indexed to inflation might I add). And I know my company are not the only mob on this gravy train...


I always try to maintain contact with my students through social media, and it saddens me to see how many actually have jobs in the industry – I could almost count it on one hand. I’ve been told by friends up North that they have never seen so many pilots working bars and stacking shelves, often they see up to 5 hopefuls a day hassling for work.



Training institutions around Australia continue to spruik data from Boeing that the market will need thousands of new pilots in the years to come. Really? A manufacturer claimed that? Then it must be true. Has anyone ever looked into how they calculated these statistics or is it just based on the amount of aeroplanes they plan on flogging to China?



I am very much aware that the demise of an aspiring young pilot is not a new thing. But one cannot ignore the fact that this is now happening on a much larger scale with Fee Help and Universities raking in money from this government funded cash cow. My organization has produced hundreds of pilots under this program, and I have fellow instructors in other capital cities who can say the same about their training institutions.


Even if the forecasts from Boeing are correct, the majority of these are for the Asia region and I highly doubt that when Joe Bloggs takes his licence overseas, he will bother paying off his loan to the taxmax on a foreign income! As fantastic as it has been that these programs have made flying affordable to all, the program needs to die, even just for a short time to allow the industry to catch up. So my question is this: how much longer until the gravy train ends? Given the current government is trying to reign in expenditure, surely this should have been the number 1 target?


:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[deadcut]

Well New Zealand used to do the same thing essentially. Zero to Hero all on the student loan. It has now stopped and the huge pyramid scheme has collapsed (to an extent).

Why Australia decided to go in this direction is a mystery. Well it had something to do with the pilot shortage (supposedly) which needed a fix there and then and not 4 years later.

[5-in-50]

If the government ends up privatising the student loan system as was proposed, this kind of thing will go bananas.

On the other hand, maybe the private system would be more savvy and deny loans to those that will never earn enough to have to start paying them back :hmm:

[pilotchute]

Five dollar,

I said something similar to you not long ago and got shot down. You are right. It's a huge waste of money which is also degrading the industry by flooding the market with hopefuls who will do almost anything for a flying job.

These uni based flying courses from what I can see are charging nearly double what a CPL should cost.

[Inspired]

Hmm thats strange the flight school im at has a 70 % of our graduates gaining employment within the first year the industry is not as grim as most people perceive

[BlatantLiar]

Hmm thats strange the flight school im at has a 70 % of our graduates gaining employment within the first year the industry is not as grim as most people perceive

Yeah but P2F doesn't count.

[Inspired]

None of them are p2f
this site is so negative about the industry it makes me think if any of you are pilots

[Five dollar shake]

Inspired are you employed by this flight school or training at it? Because I would exercise extreme caution when listening to tales of industry success stories in the current aviation climate. With the collapse of a few smaller airlines, millions lost at the big end of town, and the mining boom over, I would be very interested to know where these graduates are heading?

[BlatantLiar]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55206111.jpg

'Inspired' - It's called the glossy brochure effect

[Inspired]

Hello there blatant
In my flight school/uni
We start off with approx 35 students in the beginning and only about 20 graduate out of that 20 the top student is offered a position immediately within the school. Our school has a contract with qantaslink and approx 5-6 of the top students out of the 20 immediately progress into their first officer program. The remainder usually find employment within the general aviation sector within the first year of graduation. I have had contact with graduates and within five years ive know people flying for major airlines around the globe. However with that being said it is usually the top that actually get employed within the first year so you will need to put effort into your studies.

[BlatantLiar]

There is no way someone can be that naive. Ignorance after all is bliss I guess.

Must be a troll. You've gone too hard and given it away.

Nevertheless:
http://media2.giphy.com/media/dOJt6XZlQw8qQ/giphy.gif

#gostraighttothejetgocadet

[skkm]

Qlink isn't hiring anyone at the moment, let alone fresh CPLs. Not sure where you got the idea of an 'immediate job' at the org for the 'top student' either.

[50 50]

No no, I have heard of this. The "Top Student" is given a job for 12 months passing his meagre knowledge onto the next round of students. Then cut loose for the next "Top Student". Keeps the roundabout moving and offers a glimmer of hope to those about to part with their money.

Inspired, well, I'm going to call bullsh!t on your "work in GA within a year". Unless you are a marketing guy or receptionist the number of pilots vastly exceeds the number of jobs, and free flying for school students is not helping the rest of us.

[Inspired]

This is why i dont visit this site often every single individual is so pessimist about the industry at unsw we do have a contract with qlink and the top 5-6 students each year graduate and immediately get employed at qlink because they value the training done here

[Aussie Bob]

I hope their grasp of the English language is better than yours ....

[RequestAsymmetrics]

As well as flooding the market, it seems like the big schools these days have little integrity regarding the quality of student they produce. Too much focus on getting done quickly and not enough focus on the standard coming out the back end.

[Squawk7700]

How many students drop out from their medical degrees or law or similar?

Same thing really..... Not necessarily a fault of the industry at all; some people are just downright losers and should work in something more suite to their level.

[skkm]

at unsw we do have a contract with qlink and the top 5-6 students each year graduate and immediately get employed at qlink

Simply not true. Also, check your PMs.

[pineappledaz]

The loan scheme still exists in NZ. It has been limited to $35k per year. Uni pilot grads still walk out with a $100-120k loan debt. The number of institutions that carry out the training has been reduced and I'm thinking that this number will drop further in the future. This is do to with the number of graduates actually paying back the loans.

Herein creates the problem..most young people see this wad of cash as a endless bank account..and despite knowing quite a few students that have failed numerous theory exams and flight tests I have seen a training org still "committed" to fulfilling these young students dream of being an airline pilot because of this perceived pilot shortage.

RequestAsymmetrics summed it up perfectly. I overheard a conversation between some students saying that they don't need to worry about S&L or descent profiles because that is what autopilot is for.

Then again..the student loan gravy train is keeping a whole lot of current FI's employed.

[Five dollar shake]

Squawk7700 it's not that they are dropping out, in fact quite a few are finishing. The problem is there are no jobs to go to! Graduating students are doing the same thing pilots have done previously with a packed car trip around Oz but they're coming home empty handed, even after months at a bar job. At least if you finish a medical or law degree you have somewhere to go.

Inspired - I feel for you in this day and age but have a think about it. Rex have their cadet ship. Jetstar have their cadetship. Virgin Regional have their cadetship. Qlink have/had their cadetship. With FO positions being fed from the bottom, folks in GA are stuck in GA. Previously you could jag a job flying a 206 for twelve months and wait for the twin driver above you to move into a regional airline so you could progress, but this isn't happening anymore.

Pineappledaz well said. It annoys me to see some of the bottom barrel students being limped towards the finish, and there is certainly a disconnect between their flight training and finance. I remember paying for my own and the pain I felt each time the credit card went through the machine, I made sure every flight hour counted.

This Ponzi scheme can't continue much longer


Ps sorry for my delayed replies, it appears I need everything approved by a moderator with my new registration

[pilotchute]

Most medical students drop out in the first year before they rack up a huge debt. Secondly, if you have done half a law or medical degree at least you have some transferable skills. What transferable skills does three quarters of a CPL give you?

Loans for flying isn't the same as loans for law and medical degrees. Also, you have to score in the top 2 percent of school leavers to get into law and top 1 percent for medicine. You don't even need to have passed your HSC to get fee help for flying. It's a huge scam.

[Clare Prop]

Students see these loans as "free flying" and believe the glossy brochures because they say exactly what they want to hear. When they are young they don't want to think about the consequences of this massive debt hanging around their necks for decades to come, no, it's "free flying" now! I probably would have been the same as a teenager but couldn't afford my first lesson until I was 26 and had established a good career doing something else.

The reality is very different to the glossy brochures. The ponzi scheme is making someone rich somewhere I suppose. I'd rather my taxes were used to improve airport infrastructure that train a whole lot of pilots who are surplus to requirements.

[poteroo]

The Federal Government is 'owed' over $300m by students who have not repaid their loans. many of these are university course loans of less than $30,000. If these students don't see any necessity to repay loans - then what does this say for the probity of the custodians of our tax dollar? It says that they don't really care - and students have long since sussed that out.

Now there is a parallel with university student loans and with aviation loans. Both are ill conceived, and both are poorly managed.

Do we need a tertiary trained workforce in Australia? Hell no - not when we're using the 457 visa scheme to fill essentially jobs that well eddicated Aussies feel are demeaning and below their exalted status of uni graduate! Does a Canberra tealady need an MBA? Do we need more CPL's? No way! All that's happening is that training organisations are continuing to operate profitably - while the taxpayer is funding a major share of these programs. The result is too many tertiary providors and too many flight schools.

If the government of the day were committed to rational expenditure, they would close off this wasteful system and allow the real market to sort itself out. If there is a perceived future shortage - offer non-repayable scholarships to students based on aptitude, and this will be more likely to see them remain in their chosen profession - and in Australia.

The recession we're about to have is going to force government into trimming these expenditures.

[Andy_RR]

These loans are unsecured/unbacked credit. Anyone who really understands money creation knows that this kind of thing is an inflationary pressure. It's collectively eating away at our money's purchasing power. We should all be mad about it.

If someone who wanted to borrow the money had to stump up some collateral of some kind to take the loan, it would significantly curtail the amount of credit available. Of course, it's not PC, because only the "rich kids" would get the opportunity.

...except it's the same thing because the "rich kids" aren't being turned into perpetual debt slaves in the same way the naive "poor, underprivileged" kids are.

Anyway, I'm sure we can get the guvmint to fix it. They've done such a stellar job on everything else...

[le Pingouin]

poteroo, they've "sussed it out" have they? It gets taken out automatically once they hit $53,345: Loan Repayment - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-repayment/pages/loan-repayment)

So they're deliberately limiting their income for life to avoid paying back a few grand?

Why does anyone who has no qualification need to study? An MBA is about as useful to most managers as it is to a tea lady, based on the amount of damage said graduates inflict on organisations.

[Di_Vosh]

at unsw we do have a contract with qlink and the top 5-6 students each year graduate and immediately get employed at qlink because they value the training done here

While that may have been true at times in the past (unsw, along with FTA, OAA, etc), that doesn't mean that that is currently correct.

AFAIK, the last FO induction at Eastern was in June last year. Sunstate have done a few more, with the last intake over six months ago.

IT WOULD BE MY GUESS that the Sunstate intakes were from our hold file, which is still pretty extensive and I know personally some people who've been on it for around two years.

immediately get employed at qlink because they value the training done here

IMHO, you could only have heard that from someone at UNSW.

I've been speaking with some training captains over the past few weeks and the feeling I got was that there was a dissatisfaction with the 250 hour pilots that were coming through.


DIVOSH!

[Clare Prop]

Poteroo has said it much better than I could, and yes students should show some kind of aptitude before they start. it has always amazed me how people have been pressured to "sign up" for an Integrated course (using the GST exemption as bait) when there is no knowing if that person has any aptitude whatsoever or even the ability to pass the medical!

[4Greens]

Join the RAAF, they pay you.

[BlatantLiar]

I'd rather get a lobotomy done.

[Cessna Jockey]

I for one think this is a great government scheme. I can see the advertisements now.....

"Qantas: even our baggage handlers are commercial pilots"

[Runaway Gun]

Ironically, I didn't get a callback for a Baggage Handling job, as I had "done too well on the aptitude tests".

That explains why so much baggage gets lost...

[deadcut]

Ironically, I didn't get a callback for a Baggage Handling job, as I had "done too well on the aptitude tests".

That explains why so much baggage gets lost...

Please, get over yourself.

[Runaway Gun]

I've worked as a Baggage Handler previously, before aptitude tests were required.

The Aptitude Tests online were more difficult than RAAF Pilot Aptitude tests that I passed.

[Humbly Reserved]

Agreed, FEE HELP is clogging the market with countless fresh pilots

1) This has lowered the bar I believe as a lot more people who either don't have the stomach for GA after they finish, people with bad attitudes or people who shouldn't fly as opposed to before. (maybe ratios the same but the fact is there's more on the market)

2) I believe FEE HELP should be means and skills tested. Impose an aptitude test (with a maximum number of attempts) otherwise pay for your own training. I still remember seeing several students start a program who were illiterate and innumerate (I still don't know how they got a HSC) They really struggled and couldn't finish which made me feel bad for them.

3) From sources at UNSW and QLK, there is absolutely not truth to what the previous poster said maybe that's what they tell you at induction. But no newbies are making it in. I'm afraid industry progression has slowed drastically so don't expect a quick easy ride to an airline in AUS within the next couple years.

[pilotchute]

Jack,

As far as I know you can't get a govt funded place on an MBA course. Secondly, an arts degree at least will give you something an employer in more than one industry will want. If I was advertising for a junior manager and I got an arts degree holder with no experience and a CPL holder with no experience then the job most probably go to the arts degree holder.

[Homesick-Angel]

Evilducky

Unfortunately the only one who thinks the way you trained or payed for it is important, is you..

Saying that, if its a first job, the employer may be wary until he's seen or not seen a few things from a candidate. Like can you actually think and fly at the same time?

The one big difference I feel is that unless you've had to fork out a grand at a time for a nav, or pull the card out at the end of the flight, you dont ever really feel the value.

By the time you have the experience to apply for certain jobs, they'll wanna know if you can fly, do you know your stuff, do you meet the requirements, and are you a W@nker?

My experience with guys from fee help schools is that there's a simple cross section of ability just like any other cross section. the thing is that due to having paid for it, there is a percentage of special cases that get through that wouldn't anywhere else unless mummy and daddy have a lot of money.

From what I know of fee help schools out of the initial numbers in a class that start, very few finish...