Give us a gun!

[Bill4a]

Watching the latest success against IS it struck me that using a shockingly expensive missile to zap a Toyota pick up was a touch of overkill, and what was needed was a cannon that would have done the job cheaper. I'm sure there is a reason.

[Pontius Navigator]

Previously discussed.

1. MANPAD

2. Treatment of prisoners.

[Evalu8ter]

Wot PN said...

Plus, when the enemy is in range - so are you! Duking it out with a DshKa in a Tornado might not be too much fun....

Now, if we had a platform with a REAL gun it would be different. A10 and AC130 would probably do very well, but they aren't pointy nor built in the UK so you can forget them.

[dazdaz1]

Cluster bombs would be a good financial alternative to costly missiles. Although I think they might have been banned now.

[Courtney Mil]

Same with poison gas, Daz. Shame really, but there we go.

[VX275]

Would using C-17s to carpet bomb IS with FAE devices be considered excessive?

[diginagain]

Would using C-17s to carpet bomb IS with FAE devices be considered excessive? That might depend on where you're standing...

[ValMORNA]

Napalm must be relatively cheap, or have the spoil-sports banned that too? If so, just call it Jihadist Breakfast Juice or some other cunning plan.

[ShotOne]

There's all sorts of stuff which would indiscriminately wipe out thousands of people. But would it help our cause?

[Herod]

On another thread someone mentioned thermobaric weapons. I have to confess to ignorance, but having Wiki'ed them, it would seem to make a lot of sense.

[air pig]

Or build a wall 2 miles inside Turkey, sow a claymore minefield attack dogs and man traps, and I'm sure there's more than a few DDR border guards who need a pension supplement

[chiglet]

Send a C17/139 full of bacon butties, Drop the lot...Whoooos not going to paradise then?

[Davef68]

Rockets would be an alternative, but have the same vulnerability issues as a gun (And I don't think Tornados have carried them since pre-service trials)

[VinRouge]

Hydra flechette with the laser guidance on the casing would be the bomb.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Attack_Guided_Rocket

Personally a fan of doing a Stalingrad on an Isis town or city for every westerner killed by beheading, but as per usual we will just toddle along getting hamstrung by lawyers at every turn.

[ShotOne]

By"an ISIS town" you mean a normal Syrian/Iraqi town full of ordinary people who mostly loathe ISIS even more than we do?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

VinRouge; you've really got the hang of the hearts-and-minds business, haven't you.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Indirectly, he has a point; suggest we start by cluster-bombing western lawyers.;)

[VinRouge]

GBZ, leaflet drop 24 hours before, as did the Americans at Fallujah.

We should either fight to win or not fight at all. We lost the last two by being hamstrung by roe. Our exit from Basrah was an embarrassment as we made promises to the local population we couldn't keep. The trouble makers had freedom of movement yet we didn't do much to stop them.

[Wensleydale]

I would wager that the lawyers would not allow us to wrap the bodies of killed ISIS in a pigskin shroud either! (although in theory this would stop them going to their "heaven" which is why they fight jihad in the first place).

[typerated]

CRV-7 would give the stand off range and all the joy of a gun.


With a very good kill rate/$


Now if only we operated a type to carry it

[The Helpful Stacker]

Now if only we operated a type to carry it

Could existing types not be cleared to carry CRV-7 if the need arose or is the only option to pine for a retired type?

[Engines]

Type,

I think the Apache can use CRV-7s, can't it? Oh, and the Harrier did.

The laser guided 'Hydra 70' rocket came out of a US Army programme called 'APKWS' (Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System) - got started in 02, relaunched as APKWS II in 2005, and then transferred over to the US Navy in 08, as the USMC saw the potential. A BAE/NG/GD team won the contract, but LM have continued to market their own solution.

The MoD was briefed on APKWS as early as 98, but there was zero interest from anyone - at that time, the focus was on Storm Shadow and Brimstone, aiming at hardened targets or tanks. The potential of marrying an APKWS guidance system with the very powerful and accurate CRV7 rocket was never, as far as I know, looked at seriously. At the time, CRV7s were only a UOR for the RAF, but some efforts were being made to bring them into core. However, once Jags and Harriers were canned, only Apache was left.

I understand that CRV7s have been extensively used in Afghanistan by UK Apaches, but there does not seem to have been much coverage of that.

The situation in Iraq and Syria is seems to be, in my opinion, one which a guided CRV7 could be very useful. It comfortably outranges ground based guns, has low collateral damage (with most warheads - the flechette load less so) and comes in at well below a Brimstone. It's also highly effective against the sorts of targets that seem to be there, mainly due to the range of warheads available.

Most usefully for those on the ground we are trying to help, it would give one aircraft many more deliverable loads than we can deliver at present. My 'take' on what is happening out there is that the current levels of air support are not concentrated enough, heavy enough or prolonged enough to stop a determined, well trained and widely dispersed ground force advancing over wide areas into urban areas, where they are much harder to find and hit. A jet that can attack two targets and then has to go home seems, in my view, to be less useful than one that could attack eight or ten.

Best Regards as ever to those doing their best in a god awful place

Engines

[MSOCS]

Gents,

This is all about selecting your most precise weapon and minimising collateral footprint. Everyone's seen the video on BBC and are, for reasons various, baulking at the cost per missile of DM Brimstone. My take is that there aren't very many people on PpRuNe who know what the other considerations around the wider target area were at the time of such attacks against ISIL - these could very well have driven the selection of that weapon so I'm not going to armchair critique the weapon choice and really couldn't give a damn about the cost. Nope.

CRV-7 is a great little weapon; cheap but unguided (i.e. non-precision, which is a bad word in modern conflict), so you've no really sweet moving target capability and you'd need to fire a number on one pass which isn't a good choice when you've a one shot kill option in another weapon. [Engines, granted, if we had an APKWS solution it would be a different story.]

Cannon is good too; lower dispersion, many varieties of bullet to choose from etc. Again, you'd need to fire quite a lot of rounds close-in to the potential threat.

For me, DM Brimstone is an excellent weapon against small, agile/moving targets where you have collateral concerns. We don't have anything else like it on UK Combat Air and even our US cousins are quite envious of its capabilities, proven in Afghanistan on many occasions.

[Just This Once...]

When you add all the support costs, fuel, tanking, manning, logistics and all the enablers required to bring 2 Tornados to bear the price of a DMB is tiny.

If you add all the support costs, fuel, tanking, manning, logistics and all the enablers required to bring 2 Tornados to bear, yet fire or drop nothing because the cheaper weapon you have does not meet the RoE / CDE, you end up with quite a wasteful and fruitless expense on your hands.

Having 3 types of weapons on-board, with a brace of different fusing and targeting options plus a guy in the capacity seat operating a good sensor is a cost-effective capability.

[MSOCS]

JTO, couldn't agree more chap!

Having 3 types of weapons on-board, with a brace of different fusing and targeting options plus a guy in the capacity seat operating a good sensor is a cost-effective capability.

It's also an astoundingly effective and lethal combination when it needs to be!

[Martin the Martian]

VinRouge has a point. We all know that in pure military terms we and our coalition partners are more than capable of wiping ISIS off the map in a matter of days.

However, politics has a habit of getting in the way, and as before we tiptoe around dropping a bomb here, a missile there, scared witless that we might do something that could be seen to be even slightly wrong. But at the same time we use the sort of rhetoric that would suggest that the whole military might of the coalition is to be unleashed against ISIS.

The result? Well, we're back in Iraq again, aren't we?

[engineer(retard)]

Laser guided concrete is also useful

[Lonewolf_50]

Laser Guided 2.75 rockets are alive and well. (IIRC, Hydra)

Does the CRV7 not have such a kit? The wiki article suggests that it does, or something similar. (Grain of salt, of course). If not, it would be a great upgrade to a good weapon. The political issues on collateral damage are here to stay.

I had heard that the Zunni (5") rockets had received a laser guidance kit, and the wiki article suggests that live fire tests were successful in 2010. Guessing they are available now.

Seems that the kit needed to match various targets is available. The question is, what do you carry on a given mission?

[VinRouge]

Bearing in mind where Abdul and his mates are fighting, we should be clearing out the refugees to internationally supported centres along the Turkish border, whilst flattening every single place of refuge within a 50 mile boundary of the Turkish and Syrian border. Take out all electrical and water supplies and cut off lines of communication. Let's see how they get on in 55 degrees ambient with no air con and no water supplies. Without freedom of movement they can't get up to much.

Once this is done, use sentinel MTI to pick up Toyota hilux or whatever vehicles have been supplied by the Qatari and Saudi sponsors. Smash the **** out of each and every one, even if all it has is a load of slabs of water in the boot. They need to be in no doubt that if they want to terrorise us, we will do the same, will not stop until their ideology is destroyed, killing every single one of them and stopping for nothing to achieve this.

A good example of where ideology was a centre of gravity was hamburg. When we smashed hamburg, it was the first time the Nazi government but also the population realising it want all blitzkrieg, Poland and roses; it was also the start of the first plots,by German generals to lead a coup against the NazI leadership. http://ww2today.com/29th-july-1943-germany-is-stunned-by-the-impact-of-the-hamburg-raids


The Russians got it in Chechnya,The French foreign legion got it in Algeria with very brutal treatment of the Islamist insurgency, the Israelis recently got it in Beirut and the Lebanon and until we start to learn to fight dirty, on their terms, we will continue to lose. I have taken part in two failed ops, partly down to a refusal to take off the gloves, they will not get we mean business until we start playing proper hardball.

What is happening to he Kurds in Northern Iraq is frankly disgusting. We should be fully behind them and not expecting ageing old women and female teenagers to be doing a job the international community should be doing, but isn't, properly.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Apache CRV 7 needs a boost motor cf the Harrier.

Last time I knew, they were looking to an anti-Nike version on the CRV 7. That is the trainer not the missile. It was a pure kinetic weapon dispensing 125mm long and 0.5mm diameter needle. Go through any soft material :)

[Virtually There]

Er, don't you have to make a lot of noise to get close enough to fire a gun?

I thought most of the point of laser-guided bombs et al was to target and release them before the enemy knows you're there. Strafing kinda gives the game away . . . or at least gives enough time for most of Mullah's mates to scamper off into civi street where they can't be touched.

[Pontius Navigator]

You ever been straffed?

Where I was standing we would hear the impacts before we heard the firing.

[Virtually There]

It's not the firing I'm talking about - it's the sound and sight of an aircraft approaching close enough to get its gun-sights in. Does any aircraft strafe at supersonic speeds? And in your case, were you expecting it/keeping an eye out for it as IS is?

Interesting to note the RAAF aborted a mission a couple of days ago because a target they were tracking in Iraq quickly moved into a civilian area - apparently aware there were aircraft in the vicinity. The Australian chief of defence noted IS had already started changing its tactics in response to recent air strikes.

RAAF fighter aborted air strike on Isis target to avoid killing civilians | Australia news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/08/raaf-fighter-aborted-air-strike-on-isis-target-to-avoid-killing-civilians)

[Alister101]

I take it if our fastjets got in range of their MANPADS our fastjet countermeasures are not good enough to overcome them? Or is it the case of we don't know and it's a risk not worth taking.

[NutLoose]

Isn't it a shame the wrong lot caught Ebola.

[typerated]

I asked without response on the F-35 thread -


What chance is there of HMG buying any gunpods for our 35B's ?

[Pontius Navigator]

VT, yes we were and we could not hear it. First the bang, then the firing.

Real spooky with the 'whoosh' after the bang.

[Blacksheep]

What we need is some of what the Israelis have . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pGS0A6zxgoc

[Pontius Navigator]

Type, you would need to see why we didn't fit a gun to the Typhoon and then why we did.

Of course the GR4 has a gun so . . .

[Bigpants]

'Spooky' Gunship Operations in the Vietnam War (http://www.historynet.com/spooky-gunship-operations-in-the-vietnam-war.htm)

Just for old times sake wondered if Spooky might fit the bill in Iraq?

Take a turbine powered DC3 as turned out even today in North America and install mini guns and other toys.

Train local pilots to orbit hot spots at night and use FLIR and low light cameras to target the bad guys.

Of course the bad guys can shoot back but at night I feel Spooky has the edge.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spectre is better, but in both cases technology transfer would be an issue. And would you really want a local floating around above you at night?

[Blacksheep]

Of course the bad guys can shoot back but at nightRule No.27 - Tracer works both ways.

[TEEEJ]

Blacksheep wrote

What we need is some of what the Israelis have . . .

Looks like an AGM-114 Hellfire strike? Hellfire already in UK service - RAF Reaper and AAC Apache

Brimstone on Tornado GR4 can also be employed against moving targets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySwP2XmDT5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo6M1ZQcsh0

[typerated]

PN,


My point exactly, I remember well the Harrier gun saga then how it flowed into Typhoon.


The Typhoon gun I am sure will be seen primarily as an A-A weapon but I note strafe is practiced from time to time.


I would suspect gunpods would not be funded for our F-35s. I just question if that is the best decision though.

[Rhino power]

Has the RAF Typhoon fleet even fired it's gun in service yet? Every one I've seen in the flesh or photo, still has the muzzle fairing in place! Also I thought the eventual outcome of the, 'have the gun/not have the gun' pantomime/fiasco was that it was to be fitted but, not supported or trained with in service?

-RP

[MSOCS]

UK F-35B will undoubtedly get the "missionized gun"; it's a matter of time and need.

Next....

[Bigpants]

My attachment is more sentimental than practical and why would I or any of our troops find themselves under a locally flown gunship?

Our PM clearly said no boots on the ground....

[Pontius Navigator]

Has the RAF Typhoon fleet even fired it's gun in service yet? Every one I've seen in the flesh or photo, still has the muzzle fairing in place! Also I thought the eventual outcome of the, 'have the gun/not have the gun' pantomime/fiasco was that it was to be fitted but, not supported or trained with in service?

-RP

In Service, I don't know but I do have a round on my desk :)

[OverRun]

I personally think the leaflet drop is the way to go.

It is amazing what modern technology can impregnate in paper these days.

[Wensleydale]

"In Service, I don't know but I do have a round on my desk"

But did you buy it?

[Just This Once...]

The gun is fitted to every Typhoon, it is fully cleared for use in all configurations (albeit with a caution for 1 weapon station load due to vibration). In RAF service it is fully loaded on every aircraft prepared for ops or QRA.

There are lots of articles out there recording the successful clearance process when the gun came into service. Sadly the ripple caused by the consideration of not funding the gun (it never actually happened) has endured.

:ok:

[typerated]

yes Typhoons have strafed :)

[dmanton300]

Has the RAF Typhoon fleet even fired it's gun in service yet? Every one I've seen in the flesh or photo, still has the muzzle fairing in place! Also I thought the eventual outcome of the, 'have the gun/not have the gun' pantomime/fiasco was that it was to be fitted but, not supported or trained with in service?

-RP

Isn't that gun cover a frangible cap?

[Typhoon93]

Question: Isn't learning how to strafe part of the OCU for Typhoon?

I believe it is for Tornado. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX-_1EZzl3M

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Herod

On another thread someone mentioned thermobaric weapons. I have to confess to ignorance, but having Wiki'ed them, it would seem to make a lot of sense.

I did - nuclear effect without the fallout!! No DNA left to analyse!!

Bloggs

[Pontius Navigator]

Wensley, of course not. Same length as a 30mm ball but heavier.

[boxmover]

Would this work on a fixed wing or could it be redeveloped to work?

Lightweight Multirole Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Multirole_Missile)

[VinRouge]

Out of interest, what drones are the Americans operating with micro turbines?

'This is only the beginning': Pentagon reveal how dozens of smart bombs have blitzed ISIS in Syria and tell terror group more missiles are on their way | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2765982/Pentagon-US-partners-begin-airstrikes-Syria.html)

Allegedly a drone crashed into a radio tower (see bottom of page) unless this was part of a tomahawk?

Some footage of ISIS hajjis getting smashed by air strikes.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=348_1412797873

Apparently according to news reports, over 300 ISIS now no longer causing trouble as part of ongoing ops.

[TBM-Legend]

War against Isis: US strategy in tatters as militants march on - Middle East - World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/war-against-isis-us-strategy-in-tatters-as-militants-march-on-9789230.html)


...are we going about annihilating ISIS the right way??? I think not...

PS: Please explain why we don't shut down their comms. Isn't that a job for the Growlers???

[tonker]

Why not just litter the place with pre owned AK47's that explode when any **** shouts "Allah Snackbar"

Then just sit back and let nature takes its course:ok:

[VinRouge]

A number of USAF units are now calling for a review of extant ROE in the media; it seems they are unhappy about CENTCOMs tight grip and reluctance for collateral.

About time the gloves were taken off and large areas of ISIS controlled territory are flattened with freefall HE. Tonker, the Syrian government have done a good job of seeing a few of the bearded nutters off with spiked mortars and recoiless rifle shells. Lets hope they keep up the good work!

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Thermobaric! I tell you!

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs! Anyway, if they (collateral) are that close to ISIS then they haven't run far enough away in the first place!

Bloggs:cool:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

They should have had you lads running the campaigns in Londonderry and Belfast. The "Good Friday Agreement" could have been signed years earlier. :D