Tasteful pictures for Gentlemen of a certain age ...

[CoffmanStarter]

Humm ... Sorry if you've been disappointed :p

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BzDjm8aIMAA75Rbjpg-large_zpsa469e574.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BzCyr3wCUAA9xcHjpg-large_zpse8a946df.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/By-QSNgIAAA0OGkjpg-large_zpscfa9ab19.jpg

Image Credits : Aeroplane Icons

Amongst the dross on Twitter there are occasionally one or two gems. Recently Aeroplane Icons have been publishing some cracking colour and B&W images of classic RAF Aircraft ... and thought other Members might like to enjoy them too :ok:

https://twitter.com/Aeroplaneicons

There are a couple of 43 Squadron F3's in "Ballistic" pose by Tim McL ... which should please Courtney ... along with more EE Lightning pics for the WIWOL community :ok:

Best ...

Coff.

[uffington sb]

Not disappointed at all Coff.
My dad was Cpl i/c the paint shop and painted those Lightnings.

Uffers.

[NutLoose]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzCsp8pCcAAp5JT.jpg

Hehehe, I wonder if they are posting them as the magazine has been sold to Flypast. They have a huge database

[sitigeltfel]

Re the Gnat 'mishap'..........

During a low approach at RAF Kemble, Gloucestershire, the main undercarriage struck the leading edge of the runway breaking the port undercarriage leg strut on impact. The instructor managed to keep the aircraft airborne and to burn off fuel before making a copybook two-wheeled landng. Subsequent inspection revealed that the main undercarriage casting was damaged and as this could not be replaced, the aircraft was stuck-off charge as Cat.5(G/I)

Front fuselage allocated to ground instructional use at the Aero Medical School at RAF Cranwell as 7792M on 30/1/1968 since scrapped.ASN Aircraft accident 28-SEP-1966 Folland Gnat T.1 XM704 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=56501)

:ooh:

[Buster Hyman]

Love the 'low vis' Lightning scheme there...hard to spot in the clouds.

[Typhoon93]

CS, thanks for sharing.

I loved the image of the rocket launch from the F-15 cockpit.

[Al R]

That Gnat looks too delicate to be hardly capable of bending the grass. Nice shots. But the bloke in his flat cap and chippie's coat hasn't got a day-glo bib. :eek:

Although he does seem to have an arm band.

[NutLoose]

It does look like they could lift it onto their shoulders and double off the airfield though :)

[Ray Deacon]

Common lads, please stop 'lifting' other peoples' material and claiming it as your own. I took the photograph of the Gnat plus several others of the stricken aircraft and am willing to let others use them for publication as long as they are accredited properly. I would expect PPrune to have rules about this!


It makes me wonder if the two excellent shots of the Lightning and Meteor formations are the copyright of Coffmanstarter?

[CoffmanStarter]

Nutty ... #3 ... I see you've been out playing with your new Aviation Tin Snips already :p

[Wander00]

Ok, hands up all those who thought it would be pictures of a certain blonde actress in her frillies.....................

[CoffmanStarter]

Wander00 :=:=:=:=

[The Helpful Stacker]

http://georgesjournal.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/susannah_york_battle_of_britain.jpg
"Did someone say Lightnings?"

[Fareastdriver]

The No2 in the Meteor shot is preserved at Cosford.

[NutLoose]

I too thought it would be pretty young fillies, obviously I haven't reach that stage in my life Coff has :p

[nutnurse]

There is a connection between 1 and 12 (well painted by the way, sir, son of the father). Those red, chequered fins remind me of the playing cards in Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland' (oh, alright, 'Alice's Adventures in the RAF, and What She Found There'), with the Queen of Hearts crying, "off with their heads!" Gentlemen of a certain age have been known to lose their heads to the Queen of Hearts in 12 and similar ladies, have they not?

[Davef68]

Common lads, please stop 'lifting' other peoples' material and claiming it as your own. I took the photograph of the Gnat plus several others of the stricken aircraft and am willing to let others use them for publication as long as they are accredited properly. I would expect PPrune to have rules about this!


It makes me wonder if the two excellent shots of the Lightning and Meteor formations are the copyright of Coffmanstarter?

Not Coffman, but the Aeroplane Twitter feed which seems to be using all sorts of images that aren't their - I noticed one of 'Fred Martin's' on there (Fred being the pseudonym of a well known aviation journalist/photographer) and another of Adrian Blach's

[nutnurse]

I believe it's called 'liney porn', Nutty.

[izod tester]

I have always been slightly irritated by the claims of credit and copyright by individuals for photographs which were only taken with the contribution of several or many other people. For instance, the 56 Sqn Lightning photograph required the cooperation of each pilot in the formation and the efforts of the groundcrew to prepare the aircraft and other essential aircraft operational support functions to be undertaken. Why is credit not given to them too.

I understand that the Gnat mishap photograph may not fall precisely into that category, but I expect that, for it to have been taken so close to the aircraft, the photographer was paid to be there to record the events for the subsequent inquiry. In which case, the copyright should lie with the crown.

[NutLoose]

Ray if you note Coff put

Image Credits : Aeroplane Icons

[NutLoose]

I believe if you take images of military stuff while serving the copyright is actually MOD

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, thanks, my last meatbox flight was in 744 - 1hr 40.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, you may be correct but has it ever been enforced or indeed is it enforceable?

I was once put on an emergency deployment roster. Handbrake House demanded I hand over my passport, it was the rules. I declined on the grounds that I had paid for it and they could do the proverbial.

They made an exception on the grounds that I was an officer.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good evening Ray ...

I assume you are the Ray Deacon of CFS and one of the four Authors of the book 'Little Rissington : The Central Flying School 1946 - 76'.

When I post pictures I always endeavour to correctly credit images (as best as I'm able to do ... which I did in this instance) as the majority of PPRuNe Members do. The three example images I posted to introduce this thread were, as stated, sourced from the source I declared (which I have absolutely no connection with). There was no further information to indicate who owned or took the original pictures, the Gnat image included, other than 'Aeroplane Icons'

I apologise if I have caused you any personal upset and will, if you wish, gladly remove the Gnat image from this post.

Kind regards ...

Coff.

PS. Above message also sent by PM to Ray ... with a PM to the mods.

I will also add that your Post, Ray, at 9 Timed 16:18 wasn't visible to me when I posted at 10 16:40 ... otherwise I would have replied earlier :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

PN ... May I ask where your last flight was ... a quick look-up suggests that particular Meatbox had a bit of time down here in the South East ... Biggin, Thorney and West Malling ?

[dragartist]

Well done Coff, I'm with you on this copyright stuff. You always take trouble to acknowledge the source. Most of what you do just signposts things that are available to us all for free in t'intaweb. Nutty is correct. I recall a DCI/DCN on the topic not too many years ago. saying that all photos taken by project officers in connection with official business needed to be recorded with DTG and serial numbers. As PN says I don't recall this ever being done. In the wet film era it was always the camp photog who was called in to undertake technical photography. In the area I worked one never took your own camera anywhere near the workplace. Many of us risked it in the digital era. One of my guys was a dab hand with a camera. some of his shots which were classified have been used on company web sites without acknowledging the cameraman or the MoD. For what it is worth I think the Gnat photo would have been Crown Copyright when it was shot. Just like the rather fantastic shots of the Frightning. Some rather fantastic shots appearing on the 130 thread. Well done Coff. If you do end up in jail some of us will send you a hacksaw blade in the cake.

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, 744, Flt Lt Ball, 1 Aug 1963 Stradishall Ex J9, All aids navex.

Regarding Crown Copyright, for previously published work the limit is 50 years.

[CoffmanStarter]

Cheers PN ...

I knew quite a few ex 500 Squadron Meteor guys who operated out of West Malling in the 50's ... clearly no tie up :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Ball was unusual, quite young, he may have been National Service.

We also had a Flt Lt Murkowski. I did the low level navel with him. He stressed that we were NOT permitted to do aeros in the Meteor as we looped and rolled over Suffolk. Ball OTOH made no such statement. Before we recovered he asked me where Stradishall was. Easy, down on the left. There were five airfields down there.

[PPRuNe Pop]

It is wise to get a couple of things clear here. It is nigh impossible for accreditation to made on every photograph that appears on PPRuNe and for that reason the hundreds x ? that have and do appear on these pages over the last 16/17 years cannot, except for the odd few, be properly identified so we mods/PPRuNe take the view that it is a normal function of the site to publish what is put here. Judgement is then made on each case.

However, it is a particular trait of Coff to credit the pics when it is possible. He always does that. And good for him. But if he has a picture to show is he expected to go hither and thither trying to find out who took the picture? Of course not.

If Ray Deacon took that picture of the Gnat, which I have seen before - in other mags and aviation sites. To berate someone for it is hardly fair. What he should have done was to make the photo copyright by showing it on the picture. Only then can anyone know it is copyright. Countless magazines and other aviation sources publish pictures they cannot identify.

While everyone knows their place in the scheme of things on PPRuNe it is workable. As always if someone can claim a picture is copyright they would have to prove it. PPRuNe takes the stance on copyright that it should not be infringed if an image is copyright identified. In other words there is no way that a picture will be prevented from being shown if it is simply not known who it belongs to. There are millions of pictures all over the world that are copyright and millions that are not but if the copyright owner does not protect his 'work' or snaps then he has only himself to blame.

And we should not forget that there are many who 'use' the pages of this site to display or try to sell their wares in one form or another. In that regard we try to take a personal view on what is acceptable and what isn't.

[Buster Hyman]

^^^
Well said Pop. :D

It'd be the end of the Caption Comp thread if otherwise! ;)

[NutLoose]

Well with your entries it often nearly is... :E

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Nutty, and well said. Coff did not claim the pictures as his own, but rather gave credit to the source. If they claimed ownership of the the images, the fault lies there. Ray, once our images get out in the etherweb, we lose control of them. There are a lot of folk out "there" that may claim your pictures, but Coff isn't one of them. But I do love your photo, so thank you.

Edit to add, well spoken everyone else on the copyright issue. I was replying to posts on the previous page. But I would add to Ray that no one here would ever wish to detract from your photos. Credit to you.

[NutLoose]

Yep, the site is very good re copyright, and yes the image copyright DOES belong to the Photographer / Owner, though as said it can be a hard job proving it is yours. I know because we fell found of it several years ago when one of my images was lifted off here and appeared in a well known newspaper. That was sorted amicably by all parties and the site info was rewritten to clarify the point.

The problem with the net is it can be a minefield and you have to be careful where posting, some of the well known sites that host pictures in their terms state you in effect waive your copyright rights to them, when you sign up in the blurb. So be aware of that too. A lot of sites do post pictures where original copyright cannot be found, but add a proviso that if any belong to you, contact them and they will remove them if requested.

But when as in this image Coff has put credits, it's not Coff one should be complaining to, but the site that hosted it, and if it is Aeroplane Magazines, then that's Key Publications.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

He stressed that we were NOT permitted to do aeros in the Meteor

I remember one old Lightning pilot, by then a QFI in something slower, telling me:

"We aren't allowed to do night aeros...here's my sequence!"

p.s. Turn off mode C. :E

[megan]

Common lads, please stop 'lifting' other peoples' material and claiming it as your own. I took the photograph of the Gnat plus several others of the stricken aircraft and am willing to let others use them for publication as long as they are accredited properlyBe interesting to know in what capacity Ray was acting when taking the Gnat photo. Being on MOD property he may very well find himself on the wrong side of the law if someone were to be really anal. And claiming copyright would constitute proof of an illegal act.

[West Coast]

What is that fugly looking thing with the orange snout?

[BEagle]

That, sir, is the Armstrong Whitworth Meteor NF(T) Mk 14.

An all weather interceptor, derived from an earlier fighter, but latterly used in the training role for navigator training - hence the day glo markings.

Almost as ugly as the Lockheed F-94C Starfire!

[Wander00]

Night aeros were not unknown in the Canberra T4 either..........

[CoffmanStarter]

Likewise night aeros in a Chipmunk were not unknown :hmm:

[ORAC]

acGlWjFrGNI

[Tankertrashnav]

I have been helping the widow of an old chum of mine to dispose of his collection of aircraft and aviation related photographs on a well-known auction site. Some are of Soviet warships and date from his time on PR Canberras. Three carry the printed inscription across the bottom "...Confidential US/UK Eyes Only", with a date in 1970.

How do you think I stand on these? My feeling is that they must have been long declassified, particularly as the ships must be razor blades by now, but I'm not keen to get a visit from the guys in a car with blackened windows.

Anyone know how long these security classifications last?

[BEagle]

I recall once being 'asked' by some Air Wheel's bottom-wiper for prints of photos I'd taken (own camera, own film) from the FunBus - so that the Air Wheel could have them for his office wall.

Cibachrome prints from slides being rather expensive, I asked who would be paying....

The AW's b-w sniffily tried to tell me that they were Crown Copyright, so I should just send him the slides.....

"Oh dear, that's a shame. I seem to have lost them. So you'll have to take your own piccies, I guess....CLICK!"

Hmm, I thought, better tell my Flt Cdr in case poo came my way.

"Did you tell him to f*** off?", he asked.
"Not in quite those words"
"Well, I would have done. If he calls back, let me know and I will tell him!"

[Haraka]

hmm,
Three carry the printed inscription across the bottom "...Confidential US/UK Eyes Only", with a date in 1970.
I wonder if anyone would notice if you just sliced the titling strip off?...:E

[BEagle]

Security markings - always a PITA!

When I was holding at Valley betwixt Gnat and Hunter courses, one of the Gnat Sqn Cdrs left his little daughter in his office for an hour or so, whilst he went off on some station business.

When he got back, he was a bit miffed to find that the little cherub had found his rubber stamps and ink pad - and had stamped virtually everything she could find as 'SECRET' or 'CONFIDENTIAL'. Took a bit of explaining to the Feds when he had to get everything officially destroyed....:(

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, contact the clearance department at Northolt. He may help or pass it on yo the Media guy at MoD.

Under the 30 year rule they may well be declassified. As they have probably not been published the Crown Copyright 120 year rule will then apply.

Enjoy.

PS,

Work cleared and I published 9 years ago has now been refused clearance after 're-editing. The information, now 40 years old is deemed too sensitive. In reality we think it is a young no nothing who finds kit easier to say no.

[MPN11]

Ref the 56 Sqn checkerboard tails ... am I right in remembering that "Authority" got overexcited as the design omitted the r/w/b fin flash? And that this marked the beginning of the end for colourful Lightning markings?

Fighter Command disbanded on Tuesday 30 April 1968, becoming part of the new Strike Command. On Wednesday morning, 1 May, No 74 Sqn's Lightning F6s were pulled out of their hangar onto the line at Tengah, all sporting black tails. The 'official line' at 74 was that whilst FC had banned coloured fins, FC no longer existed and no such edict had been received from STC. :ok:

I'm sure there's a Tiger Mate here who remembers the occasion.


(The paint on the fin leading edge eroded quite quickly - I think they were re-done, at a more leisurely pace, with better quality paint later on)

[St Johns Wort]

Isn't unauthorised photography of/on military property an offence under the OSA (technically ;)).

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I'll take Haraka's advice - seems to be the easiest solution.

You are right St John's Wort. I was once sitting in my old Zephyr convertible with the hood down near the airfield at Seletar taking photographs of whatever was airborne at the time. A Land Rover pulled up and the WO i/c RAF police gave me a polite but firm bollocking for taking photos on MOD property without a permit.

Luckily he didnt insist I hand over the film, so I was able to keep my photos of highly classified Beverleys and Twin Pioneers!

[Davef68]

A lot of pics from that time period, which were Classified, have been passed to the IWM and are on line:

Collections listing for "part of "SURFACE FLOTILLA PHOTOGRAPHIC UNIT (SFPU) ARCHIVE: CLASSIFIED COLLECTION"" | Imperial War Museums (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/listing/object-205223564)

I've seen copies of Recognition Journal (still marked as 'Restricted') for sale at shows/jumbles as well.

[MPN11]

OMG, so the overhead picture I have of Gemas Strip in Malaya (Restricted) is still ... ummm ... Restricted after all these years? (photo dated 22 Nov 67)

Should I eat it, shred it, or hand it in to the Police?

(I have signed the OSA, and was PV(TS) ... does that help?)

[Haraka]

My favourite was a set of ground shots in Haraka Senior's very extensive archives ( now donated ) of a new fighter.
The views of the beast on the ground, photographed from the prime aspects, were all classified:

They were of the SS37 !!! :ooh::ooh:




Classified "MOST SECRET"!!!!!:oh::oh:







Some of you might know it as the Gloster Gladiator.:eek:

[CoffmanStarter]

Here you go Haraka ...

A gift from me to you :ok:

I took the picture recently at the Goodwood Revival on my Phone Camera :eek: ... The Fighter Collection's Mk2 SS.37 no less ... resplendent in 72 Squadron Colours :cool:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/20140912_120400_zps5fa2cff5.jpg

Image Credit : Self

Coff.

[Haraka]

OOOH!

Coff!
Look over your shoulder mate !

Nice knowing you !

(Officer I've never heard of him, HONEST !
No!, No ! Not the electric cattle prod again....... )

[CoffmanStarter]

West Coast ...

Just to add to BEagle's reply to your #37 ... 'our' Meteor (aka Meatbox) came in a variety of interesting forms ... not least a sole example of this lash up (F8 Prone) :eek:

There were a total of 22 Meteor variants (including the prototypes)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Gloster_Meteor_Prone.jpg

Image Credit : Wikipedia Media Image

Used for experimental work on the (then) perceived benefits of a Pilot flying in the Prone Position (I just know I'm going to regret typing that :E)

If you are further interested ... more here ...

Wikipedia Gloster Meteor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor)

Coff.

[Lima Juliet]

Coff

Pilot flying in the Prone Position

So the back-seater can play 'mummies and daddies'? :E

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/187712256/h00A5C21F/

LJ

[Haraka]

Used for experimental work on the (then) perceived benefits of a Pilot flying in the Prone Position (I just know I'm going to regret typing that )

RAF Institute of Aviation Medicine's Ronny Wombeck (sp?) was one of the stars in that programme.
Gave me my first civvie aircrew medical renewal from his offices near Sloane Square - many decades ago.

[Wander00]

saw the prone pilot Meteor in a museum-Cosford?- walked away quickly.

[Ray Deacon]

Izod,


I wish I had been paid to take such photographs, I'd be a rich man by now. I was just an airmen who carried his camera 'on the job', so anything that moved, or didn't in this case, ended up on film.


Ray

[CoffmanStarter]

All ...

By way of update ... I have just spoken with Ray. We are good ... I've offered to buy him a beer and have a chat sometime when he's less busy :ok:

He is happy for the Gnat pic to remain as posted on this Thread ...

Many thanks Ray ... hope to see you on PPRuNe Mil more often in the future.

Coff.

[Buster Hyman]

I think that's my thumbs up smiley there Coff.....


:}:}