Cost of British Air Strikes in Iraq

[Warmtoast]

Cost of British Air Strikes in Iraq


Interesting news article with breakdown of costs of recent RAF activity in Iraq.
e.g. Paveway bombs, £22,000 each, Brimstone missiles, £105,000 per unit.


How Much Will Airstrikes On IS Cost Taxpayer? (http://news.sky.com/story/1342768/how-much-will-airstrikes-on-is-cost-taxpayer)

[Rhino power]

considerably more efficient than its VC-10 Tristar predecessor.

The RAF kept these well hidden, I've never even seen one... :suspect:

-RP

[CoffmanStarter]

Rhino ... That's three Conways aside then ;)

[MPN11]

At least a decent, unemotional piece of writing.

I don't suppose strapping a guidance unit on a 25lb practice bomb would work? It just seems a VERY expensive way of taking out a pick-up truck.

[cokecan]

how much would a US CBU cost - surely attacking convoys with individual guided weapons is economic suicide?

using Brimstone/Paveway might work, just, for plinking IS £5000 Toyota pick-up trucks, but wallopping a single armoured regiment is going to deplete our entire stock...

[MPN11]

I saw somewhere that IS have 10 tanks ... Save the goodies for that, and use guns on the rest?

Oh, that might be dangerous.

[Just This Once...]

I guess high angle dive with airburst KFF has fallen out of fashion.

Surgical strikes are as expensive as surgery.

[MPN11]

Sorry, I'm old and out of date ... KFF?

[Just This Once...]

1000lb Free Fall.

[Jetex_Jim]

surely attacking convoys with individual guided weapons is economic suicide?
using Brimstone/Paveway might work, just, for plinking IS £5000 Toyota pick-up trucks, ...

IS have 2 Billion Euros in assets, it is estimated. I think that means they can afford more £5000 Toyotas than we can afford £105,000 Brimstones.

[just another jocky]

JTO.....KFF & KRET were dropped (see what I did there? :}) years ago and the profiles no longer practiced.

Guys, the cost of the weapons vs the targets is relatively irrelevant. They're bought and paid for. If we don't drop them now, there may not be another chance so if it were up to me, we'd drop the lot!

Precision is the order of the day, minimum collateral damage and certainly no civilian casualties. Whole different ballgame from Cold War days.

[skua]

especially if their 'best before' date is 31/10/14.....

[langleybaston]

so they will not need to be replaced after expenditure, then?

Funny old thing.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

JAJ - I think the hole in your argument is
If we don't drop them now, there may not be another chance so if it were up to me

These annoying terrorist jerks are turning up all over the shop. In fact we've been bombing 'technicals' and the like from Libya to the 'Stan for over 10 years. It's 'kin expensive, and they aren't worth it. Furthermore, the effect on inability to provide proper healthcare at home is becoming measurable.

Let's do what the French were rumoured to do in Chad - just sent the flying training weapons course out there to do strafe, etc on real targets. Cheap as you like, bullets that have to be fired anyway, and beers for every 'secondary'!

[racedo]

Interesting news article with breakdown of costs of recent RAF activity in Iraq.
e.g. Paveway bombs, £22,000 each, Brimstone missiles, £105,000 per unit.



Huh

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to ask them to blow the truck up themselves, grab a lift in a truck to Uk and they could live on benefits.

Lets face it they will end up as Asylum seekers here anyway so just cutting out some time.

[MPN11]

I am not trivialising the difficulties, or being lighthearted, but there surely exists a better way of dealing with these targets more cheaply? Or isn't there any more, in the new high-tech precision world?

I look forward with interest to see how this thread progresses.

[highflyer40]

but surely the cost is slightly offset by reduced live fire training exercises? if they are out there doing the real thing could you not just scrap some scheduled live fire exercises and balance SOME of the cost?

[MPN11]

Using what, highflyer40? Isn't that the conundrum?

Practice bombs might do the job, but not with precision.
Guns put you in the MANPAD zone.
Nuke is a no-no

What ARE the options for 21st Century assymetric warfare that don't cost silly money or risk lives to take out a puck-up truck? Or is this the cost of progress?

[mmitch]

In one of the recent wars (Libya?) I seem to remember concrete bombs
being used on armour hiding in built up areas?
mmitch.

[NutLoose]

When you see IS driving around in all the captured Humvee's etc I cannot understand why in this day and age they cannot be linked to a central US military computer system via satellite, thus when captured their engine ECU's could be disabled rendering them unusable by the enemy. It would be nice if like American police bait cars it also locks the doors, stuck in a disabled armoured vehicle in the desert with nothing working would be a nice end for some of them.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Nuke is a no-no

:{


Oh..go on. You know you want to ;)

7w0ZyfkukUs

[Pontius Navigator]

Mmitch, GW 2, down town Bagdad

[Thelma Viaduct]

The nation has bombed ****** out of non-bacon eaters for 23 years on and off.

Are we any better off for it?

I'd guess £billions of tax payers money has been wasted, I'd sooner see it spent on schools and hospitals (in this country, not India).

[MAINJAFAD]

Doesn't matter if the PW has an explosive filling or not, the most expensive part of it by far is the Guidance Package at the front. you may save a few thousand on the cost of the actual bomb due to no Fuze or explosive filling if you use a guided drill / practice round, but that's about all.

[Lonewolf_50]

The nation has bombed ****** out of non-bacon eaters for 23 years on and off.
Perhaps the overapplication of restraint is the problem, as with on this side of the pond.

This cost of precision armaments isn't a new question. Twenty years ago, I listened to Admiral Boorda (then our CNO) go on at length about how pointless it seemed to him to shoot Harpoon Missiles (or even Penguins) at small boats. His point on costs of weapons and targets was made pretty well, for all that he ignored how many iron bombs miss their targets ...

Within a few years, a few weapons with lower payloads (Hell Fire, some of the 25 mm chain guns) were in the Fleet and providing the local commander with a few more choices in matching munitions to targets.

[MAINJAFAD]

Does anybody know off the top of their head what percentage of Brimstone or PW IV is made in the UK? If memory serves a UK company had the licence to build PW II back in the late 1980s. Are the 500lb dumb bombs built in the UK?

[gr4techie]

Don't forget to factor in the cost of an entire detachment OOA. Avtur, oils, spare parts, support, logistics, food and accom for x amount of people.

[ORAC]

To be frank, the cost of the few munitions we are dropping fade into insignificance against the overall cost of operations. Further, if you offset the reduction in training flights and bombs it's even less.

[Mechta]

£105,000 missile vs £15,000 pickup?

If MBDA have any sense, they will buy every pickup they can lay their hands on, and leave them, with the keys in, where Johnny ISIS can find them.

BRIMSTONE: B*gg*rs Raghead's Isuzus, Mazdas, SsangYongs, Toyotas, Opels, Nissans, Expensively.

[Fonsini]

Simply deploy a drunken squaddie in Bradford with a GPMG and a few 200 round linked belts.

Very cheap and there's plenty of ISIS ToO.

Oh bother, now I'll have to re-register with a spare email address........:}

[Bevo]

how much would a US CBU cost - surely attacking convoys with individual guided weapons is economic suicide?

Convention on Cluster Munitions is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer and stockpile of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area.

The treaty was signed by the UK, but not the U.S. which said that the development and introduction of "smart" cluster munitions, where each submunition contains its own targeting and guidance system as well as an auto-self-destruct mechanism, means that the problematic munitions are being removed from its inventory.

Here is a look at a "smart" CBU at work:
nShvy9S4pg4&list=UUNEEHeS9Y2yFVLbWGeHhbYA

[Party Animal]

Seriously though - this is an area where our Overseas Aid Budget should be used to pay for it. Instead of giving millions in cash to corrupt Iraqi officialdom, we should give freely delivered Brimstones!

[MPN11]

Ahh ... I had been wondering about this consideration too ....

Islamic State Fight Could Breathe New Life Into the A-10 | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/27/islamic-state-fight-could-breathe-new-life-into-the-a10.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl)

[maliyahsdad2]

Er - the whole point of the RAF is the delivery of these weapons.

Isn't it actually more expensive having an air force during the times that it isn't delivering weapons to bearded men in pick ups.

Its not just about boys toys and beer calls. :}

[tornadoken]

MJF #26: Industrial pedigree of such kit is complex, sub-assemblies widely scattered. Paveway IV is "managed" by Raytheon UK/Harlow (nee Cossor); Brimstone by MBDA/Stevenage (nee DH Props).

"Cost" of kit is an irrelevance: if we (that is, our elected representatives) give a Task, it must be done bestest, quickest. Nigglers here are in fact disputing that the Task is "in my name": so their redress is to put up an alternative...which I presume would not be the "do nothing" option.

[racedo]

"Cost" of kit is an irrelevance: if we (that is, our elected representatives) give a Task,

Our elected reps broke it in the first place.

[sunshiner]

All these recent ops in Lithuania, Syria/Iraq must be giving the Army and Navy leadership a bit of a headache trying to project their Service. If you ain't contributing, you ain't relevent. Politicians must like us at the moment.....

[racedo]

Politicians must like us at the moment.....

Next year is election year so need Photo ops for campaigns.......

Remember they don't like, they tolerate..

[Alister101]

Why isn't the Tyhoon there?

Spent all the money on a display plane..

[Archimedes]

You mean like the extensive air displays Typhoons conducted over Libya in 2011?

[gr4techie]

Er - the whole point of the RAF is the delivery of these weapons.

Isn't it actually more expensive having an air force during the times that it isn't delivering weapons to bearded men in pick ups.

Its not just about boys toys and beer calls. :}

I thought the whole point of the RAF was to defend us agianst a credible threat. Such as a mass Soviet invasion of Western Europe. Not to take out one pick-up truck and a machine gun?

As for "more expensive not delivering weapons". I do think having a deterrent sitting there is a worthy cost. For example, our nuclear deterrent... We don't use it and it costs us a lot, but it still saves lives. A conventional deterrent may make other nations think twice about their foriegn policy, such as QRA in the Falkland Islands. Then there is other services we provide that does not have to involve the delivering weapons such as SAR, military aid to the civil community, use of air transport.

[Selatar]

From memory use of the concrete paveway IIs wasn't a success despite the best intentions for its use in urban CAS ivo Baghdad. It's use was most often followed by the supported unit saying " thankyou but can we have a real one now please"

[smujsmith]

I'm wondering why something like Spectre 2 couldn't be used against these soft targets. Rather than expensive LGBs, SGBs whatever the modern parlance is. Obviously, we (the RAF) do not operate Spectre, or a British alternative, so once the order is given, we have to use whatever is available. I'm sure the A10 also could offer a cheaper option, but risk has to be taken in to account with the IS attitude to warfare. Unlike those captured, having been shot down, in former conflicts, one can only see the ritual beheading on YouTube as treatment for any captured crew. If an area infested by these Stone Age scum could be identified, a tactical nuke could be more cost effective IMHOP.

Smudge

[Danny42C]

If we're in the business of taking out pickup trucks, how about BAe reopening the Hurricane assembly line, and running a limited production of (say) 250 Hurricane IICs ? Four 20mm Hispanos should do the business. (Or a IID with two 40mm and more armour).

Shouldn't take long for our FJs to convert.

(Tongue in cheek !)

[smujsmith]

Danny, the very thought is mouthwatering. I wonder if a pollie might read this and dispatch BBMF to Iraq for its winter season 2014:eek: There were certainly some great air to ground performers by the end of WW2, always liked the Typhoon myself, though never had the pleasure of seeing one. But Hurricane or Tiffy, both would obviously fit the current need. Perhaps your tongue in cheek post is not such a bad suggestion.

Smudge:ok:

[Robert Cooper]

Where is the A10 when you need it? It was made for this sort of stuff.

Bob C

[ValMORNA]

If cost of individual items is the main concern, would it not be possible to allow 'sponsorship' of them, a la 'A gift from me, Adolf' of WWII. There must be plenty of rich geezers around who wouldn't mind coughing up to have their message personally delivered to IS by the RAF.

[rh200]

If cost of individual items is the main concern, would

Its not the cost of individual items, its cost benefit. A several hundred thousand dollar sortie is doesn't seem worthwhile for a couple of grunt level terrorists and Toyota hilux.

If it was a strategic position or something about to fall yea, some other force multipliers yea. There had better be a lot more occurring in the background than what is showed in the media.

[Thelma Viaduct]

I'm a bit gutted the terrorists can afford such nice Toyota pickup trucks, I wouldn't feel as bad if they were pikey KIAs getting bombed.

[racedo]

I'm a bit gutted the terrorists can afford such nice Toyota pickup trucks,

Er what's this afford bit ?
You think they paying .................

[Mechta]

Pious Pilot's on to something. Send the pikeys in! They have a natural affinity for pickup trucks, especially those belonging to other people. Tell them they can keep any they can find. Pikeys are also known to enjoy a good punch up, so they might enjoy meeting ISIS too.

[Roadster280]

What's wrong with napalm? That's cheap as chips.

[chopper2004]

Smurj,

IIRC Around 15 years back, there was rumour / talk of obtaining Spectres in support of the lads from sunny Herefordshire.

Or we could configure some of the J models into USMC Harvest Hawk quick conversions or buy the MC-27J as my below pic from Farnborough - I did see some our senior RAF figures mulling around and been briefed by the Alenia guys

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_3205_zps6ac0ab1d.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_3209_zpsc5acdaf0.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_1797_zpse65ac2c7.jpg

If anyone reads the back of the Key Publishing Air Forces Monthly, there is an advert from Alenaia on the C=27J nad right at the bottom of the description - says 'The C-27J Made in Britain'


Cheers

[al_renko]

Looks like the RAF has been ordered to destroy all ASIL pickup trucks with out delay and the home secretary is ready to issue further ASBO's,but this order from TM maybe overuled by the human right watch in Salzburg.

[racedo]

Looks like the RAF has been ordered to destroy all ASIL pickup trucks with out delay and the home secretary is ready to issue further ASBO's,but this order from TM maybe overuled by the human right watch in Salzburg.

In other news Nissan and Toyota have indicated that they have received a rush order for 3000 pickups for immediate delivery.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I think the good point that smujsmith makes is the fate of anyone shot down over the Badlands. Capture and almost certain nasty death would be disastrous on several levels. On that basis alone, stand-off weapons and the attendant high cost are a sad reality of this sort of conflict. Better a high stores bill than an even higher butcher's bill.

[NutLoose]

Technology is great, until the cost of using it becomes so prohibitive as to render it ineffective.



.

[racedo]

Technology is great, until the cost of using it becomes so prohibitive as it renders it ineffective.

So apt................

Best aircraft in the world and it gets brought down by a cheap gun.

[gr4techie]

Seems like the only winner in conflict is a Toyota salesman.

[A and C]

On the B-N stand at Farnbourgh this year was an Islander with a number of small free fall guided munitions, if I remember correctly the warhead was about 20Lb.

I would guess that a few Islanders with laser designators and I large number of these small bombs could stay on station high over the area 24/7 at the fraction of the cost of fast air.

My aim would be to make this assymetric war a little less assymetric buy applying more appropriate and affordable technology to the situation.

[NutLoose]

Then there is the new Cessna Scorpion jobbie.


http://www.scorpionjet.com/

[timtrb]

How about a few barrel bombs lobbed out the back of a CH-47? Seemed to work well when the baddies used it in the region. Oh, I forgot, there're on our side now aren't they?

[ricardian]

Warthog headed for ISIS (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-01/a-10-warthogs-final-fight-off-to-war-against-islamic-state)

[NutLoose]

It amazes me how the USA thinks, they appear to procure aircraft that they never really deploy to war zones.
Then at the first chance, attempt to withdraw the backbone of their ground attack fleet as in the A-10, every time there is a period of downtime between major conflicts, ( which they all have served in ) they say the Warthog is no longer needed and surplus to requirements, there is then a major push by politicians to get rid of it. One just wonders what they will do if they ever succeed in doing that. An F-35 is never a replacement for it.

[racedo]

It amazes me how the USA thinks, they appear to procure aircraft that they never really deploy to war zones.

Such negative thoughts, have you no compassion for the families of congressmen and senators who will see their relatives rewarded in funding through covert means for wasting money on this.

[NutLoose]

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/466762/bagram-pilots-save-60-soldiers-during-convoy-ambush.aspx

[The Sultan]

The UK needs to expend any remaining JP233 munitions. While designed for taking out airfields, it should be quite effective in taking out a town of ISIS in Syria after a slight navigation error. What about collateral damage? What collateral damage?

Using the 233 which is obsolete would not really cost anything but fuel.

The Sultan

[downsizer]

We'll, that and the fact that you'd have to pay to have them manufactured being as they don't exist anymore!

[MAINJAFAD]

Plus the fact we couldn't use the front end of the JP 233 package as it's an anti personnel cluster munition and is banned in UK law (if we still had them). Most of the empty shells of the dispensers were sitting on the airfield at North Luffenham last time I had a look over the crash gate (which was 15 years ago)

[ShotOne]

Plus even if we did, most of those who'd be killed would be innocent townspeople with nothing to do with ISIS, greatly harming our cause. Other than that, great idea.

[StopStart]

I remember discussing the Harvest Hawk option around the bazaars a couple of years ago. Despite it being an enormously obvious solution to various problems, I seem to recall the major stumbling block was 1 Gp getting their knickers bunched about 2 Gp delivering ordnance from a pylon rather than on a pallet.

And then I left and went to work for grown ups. :rolleyes:

[Al R]

From Ricardian's link:

The military also says the plane—the newest of which was built in 1984—cannot survive or operate effectively in combat missions against advanced defenses. “The time has come to move forward,” Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said.

Far be it from me to perpetuate the myth that legislators are prescient, well informed or insightful, but when she said that (last year) just what immediate and pre-eminent threats were bigger on her radar - did NOBODY see this? At least it underscores Obama's statement last week that he didn't - which in itself is yet another worrying concession from a bad administration.

[Hempy]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/066/456/633646244405856943-AC130.jpg

[racedo]

AC-130 followed by A10s followed by Apaches and followed by Girls scouts should clean it up.....

Well Girls scouts would be there to sell cookies to anybody surviving.............after above do you really think there would be any.....

Course if keep knocking out refinerys then no worries as no fuel no travel.