German troops stranded

[Trumpet_trousers]

It seems that the Germans are stuck - echos of the RAF issue some months/years back?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11132656/German-soldiers-stranded-in-Afghanistan-as-more-planes-breakdown.html

[sycamore]

They could try `Lufthansa` to borrow their Ju52/3s,a la `39.......

[Wensleydale]

Not learned the lessons from Stalingrad then?

[racedo]

Can't they just drive back ?
Lets face it, all they will need to do is dust of some of the old roadmaps they had in the 40's.

[Sandy Parts]

I'd have thought Frau Merkel would have insisted on 'her' jet being used. She seems to be more connected with the German populace than our leaders (except the Royal Family of course....)

[NutLoose]

I know where they could pick up 1/2 a dozen Tristars cheap, they probably have the waypoints still in the Nav kit too.

[MPN11]

We shoukdn't mock, surely? Are we in that much better a state these days?

(Tease) ;)

[BEagle]

It's a safety issue with the pax drop-down masks - some A310 fleet issue, I gather, not Luftwaffe specific.

The actual aircraft is fine. But safety rules are paramount.

If you've ever seen a Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, you'll know how well they're maintained. No black bodge (or boche) tape or other make-dos, they're always repaired correctly. However, the wretched C-160 ('Das immer kaput!') is getting so ancient that it's hard to keep them serviceable, despite the Lw's best efforts.

[Hangarshuffle]

Saw some of their Tornado ground crew knock back 3 big bottles of Rosso each, in exactly one hour after they knocked off at 2200, I wouldn't have believed it possible to do it without looking really worse for wear but they were big blokes, plug ugly, still in their ovies and took it all as a days work and play. This was in the lads bar in Deci exactly 20 years ago, how time flys.
Er, carry on with the maintenance story.

[NutLoose]

Russia must be laughing their socks off.... If you invade Poland we will act, btw have you a AN225 we can borrow to get our chaps to theatre.

[NutLoose]

God, their groundcrew can drink though.
Saw some of their Tornado ground crew knock back 3 big bottles of Rosso each, in exactly one hour after they knocked off at 2200, I wouldn't have believed it possible to do it without looking really worse for wear but they were big blokes, plug ugly, still in their ovies and took it all as a days work and play. This was in the lads bar in Deci exactly 20 years ago, how time flys.
Er, carry on with the maintenance story.


Same was with the RAF once.. We all did, I remember going nightclubbing in Lincoln while on detachment from RAFG.. It was a free bar and a basket meal and we all slipped in separate so as not to get refused... The premium beer wasn't in the deal, but spirits were, so pints of 8 Bacardi cokes etc all round... I think they cottoned on we were all together even though dispersed :)

Sorry back to the story.

[bridgets boy]

Will never knock the Luftwaffe AT fleet - flew us back from a Kriegsmarine exchange (GR1s), into a USAF base in East Anglia at the weekend, probably MT'ed by USAF back to base (too far back to remember, but you get the gist), because our station thought we didn't deserve an exchange detachment. Said everything about the change in Service attitudes after the Wall came down - or was it just a STC thing? (previous experience confined to RAFG - where 'Can Do' meant always 'WOULD DO' for others)

[exhorder]

@MPN11: Well, I don't know if you guys are in a much better state. However, I am 100% sure that, SDSR notwithstanding, the UK armed forces are in a better state overall.

Sure, every Western military basically has been dealing with the same problems since 1990. Financial restraints, frequent and seemingly confusing restructurings (which equals cuts, for the most part), a defense industry mainly consisting of bloated quasi-monopolists who deliver their products overpriced and too late, difficult demographics and so forth.

However, in the UK, there seems to be a broad agreement about the mission of the military itself. It may be underfunded and all that, but at least you Brits pretty much know what you are supposed to do in terms of your strategic and operative ambitions. And if a decision to deploy military assets is made, for instance to bomb IS troops in Iraq, nobody in Parliament asks about which weapons to use.
In consequence, your military is able to deploy and maintain three substantial GR.4 detachments simultaneously, while having only three squadrons worth of aircraft in total. Of course, from what I've read on this forum, this isn't really a perfect situation because it puts a heavy strain on the troops. But from a professional point of view, this is admirable.

And this is where our military fails miserably. For 25 years now, the political leadership of our country has failed to precisely define the purpose of our military. Sure, there are White Papers and all that, but nobody seems to analyze them thoroughly and draw the consequences in terms of the military's structure, training, recruitment et cetera. The Bundestag's major party are in approximate agreement that we somehow need a military, but dealing with defense politics is highly unpopular, so nobody seems to put too much emphasis on that. Consequently, the military has no lobby, so the population didn't really care what was going on with the military until very recently.

As a consequence, we have a very top-heavy armed forces structure with clumsy decision-making structures, which looks good on paper, but isn't able to be deployed effectively and rapidly. Our tank battalions, our infantry, our pilots and maintenance personnel etc. are still very good from a tactical point of view, but somehow we managed to lose any ability to "put things in perspective" and make it all work together coherently. In short, we lack professional leadership.

And the lack of "purpose" from both the political and the military leaderships means, of course, that we don't really know what we need in terms of our equipment. As a result, we have a lot of theoretically exquisite stuff which takes ages to arrive at the front lines, is massively over-engineered and equally overpriced.

At least, the current scandals seem to make the public more aware of all the things that are wrong with the Bundeswehr. Even most media have jumped on the bandwagon that "something has to be done". Maybe, the current events in Iraq, Syria and Ukraine have helped with that, so there is a glimpse of hope.

Sorry for all the rants. I hope my English is good enough so that you can understand what is going on with our armed forces. Serving in our military can be pretty tedious right now.

[Fonsini]

So we've had you deployed in a war zone with IEDs, terrorists, RPGs, and bullets whizzing past your ears for months.

But exposing you to the risk of a potentially defective oxygen mask that you have 0.00001% chance of needing on an 8 hour flight is simply too much of a risk.

:hmm:

[Out Of Trim]

exhorder,

A fine post, which appears to echo both the UK and Germany's problems with politicians, budget cuts and lack of leadership.

By the way, your English is excellent! :D

[BEagle]

bridgets boy wrote: ...flew us back from a Kriegsmarine exchange (GR1s)...

Mate, that term is so 1940s....! It went out of use shortly after 1945. The new German Navy, established in the 1950s, was the Bundesmarine; after reunification with the GDR in 1990, it became the Deutsche Marine.

[MAINJAFAD]

@MPN11: Well, I don't know if you guys are in a much better state. However, I am 100% sure that, SDSR notwithstanding, the UK armed forces are in a better state overall.

Sure, every Western military basically has been dealing with the same problems since 1990. Financial restraints, frequent and seemingly confusing restructurings (which equals cuts, for the most part), a defense industry mainly consisting of bloated quasi-monopolists who deliver their products overpriced and too late, difficult demographics and so forth.

However, in the UK, there seems to be a broad agreement about the mission of the military itself. It may be underfunded and all that, but at least you Brits pretty much know what you are supposed to do in terms of your strategic and operative ambitions. And if a decision to deploy military assets is made, for instance to bomb IS troops in Iraq, nobody in Parliament asks about which weapons to use.
In consequence, your military is able to deploy and maintain three substantial GR.4 detachments simultaneously, while having only three squadrons worth of aircraft in total. Of course, from what I've read on this forum, this isn't really a perfect situation because it puts a heavy strain on the troops. But from a professional point of view, this is admirable.

And this is where our military fails miserably. For 25 years now, the political leadership of our country has failed to precisely define the purpose of our military. Sure, there are White Papers and all that, but nobody seems to analyze them thoroughly and draw the consequences in terms of the military's structure, training, recruitment et cetera. The Bundestag's major party are in approximate agreement that we somehow need a military, but dealing with defense politics is highly unpopular, so nobody seems to put too much emphasis on that. Consequently, the military has no lobby, so the population didn't really care what was going on with the military until very recently.

As a consequence, we have a very top-heavy armed forces structure with clumsy decision-making structures, which looks good on paper, but isn't able to be deployed effectively and rapidly. Our tank battalions, our infantry, our pilots and maintenance personnel etc. are still very good from a tactical point of view, but somehow we managed to lose any ability to "put things in perspective" and make it all work together coherently. In short, we lack professional leadership.

And the lack of "purpose" from both the political and the military leaderships means, of course, that we don't really know what we need in terms of our equipment. As a result, we have a lot of theoretically exquisite stuff which takes ages to arrive at the front lines, is massively over-engineered and equally overpriced.

At least, the current scandals seem to make the public more aware of all the things that are wrong with the Bundeswehr. Even most media have jumped on the bandwagon that "something has to be done". Maybe, the current events in Iraq, Syria and Ukraine have helped with that, so there is a glimpse of hope.

Sorry for all the rants. I hope my English is good enough so that you can understand what is going on with our armed forces. Serving in our military can be pretty tedious right now.

exhorder

Excellent post and your English is much better than my German. In fact most of your rant's are nothing new in the German military, They have been doing it since the birth of Germany in the 1800's. An interesting documentary by James Holland that I just happened to watch on Youtube last night covers almost all of the problems you state. I hope your English is up to it:ok:

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