Do schools teach people to be pilots?

[Heston]

Or just sell a course of flying lessons?


I'm thinking about leisure flying (not commercial) and the large number of learners who post questions on here that, whilst they are sensible questions for a learner to ask, are questions that really should be answered by their instructor, by info given them by the school, or by reading around the subject.


Are instructors so pressed for time that they don't have time to help students by covering all the flying general knowledge that they need? Don't they sit and have a coffee together from time to time? Don't they chat about flying and how great it is?


Whats going on?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Flight schools have one mission and that is to get you to pass the exams. Once you have your licence, their job is done.
Once you have the licence, then can you begin to learn being a pilot.

[Rod1]

What Jan Olieslagers says.:ok:

The school has no idea if you will compete at aeros, get an IR or fly a Cub with your feet hanging out an a big grin. All it is about is to get your license and then you go off and learn the bit of aviation you like best.

Rod1

[Camargue]

Whatever they teach they have to and as far as I see, succeed to instil the ethos of what it is to be a pilot otherwise post ppl far too many will think their learning is done.

Don't forget a lot of people like the anonymity of posting questions on forums rather than asking real people face to face.

[darkroomsource]

I don't think it's the school's responsibility.
I think it's the student's.
As a student you can get as little or as much as you want from the courses available.
I took a class for ground school, I also got several books on the subject, and I took a video course as well. That was how I prepared myself for the knowledge parts.
When flight training, between lessons, I used to practice in the chair at home, replaying in my mind the previous lesson (or two). And I read in the books about whatever it was that my instructor was teaching me, and what I expected him (I asked) to teach me in the next lesson. That way I was prepared for that next lesson when it came.

If you go through life expecting to be taught everything without having to learn, you'll only ever be mediocre at whatever you do.

If you really love something, like flying, then why not reach out and grab every bit of flying knowledge that you can?

[Baikonour]

I am sure some schools are better than others at this.

I am quite happy with the 'extracurricular' time my school spends with me. :D

Part of the problem is that some students just want to get their license and 'get on with it' - they don't see the license as part off their 'real flying' but as an ordeal which has to be passed. Those students would be unhappy with a school which is more 'holistic'. And vice versa.

Unfortunately, whether what the student wants = what the school offers may not be immediately apparent after a trial flight.

After lurking here and on other forums, I felt much better 'armed' w.r.t. having some trial lessons and what I wanted to do - and hence what I looked or. Maybe many students don't do that prior research and end up making poor choices. I was initially in the 'get on with it' camp but firmly moved across. ;)

I think it does show the importance of choosing the right school - something most of us only do once and therefore are not necessarily very good at. :)

That said, this being an anonymous forum, a. (as mentioned) some people take comfort from that as it enables them to ask questions they may be embarrassed to ask face to face and b. not all posters are what they seem and some 'students' may never have actually taken a lesson...

B.

[On Track]

I have no idea what British flying schools are like -- and I mention that because most of the posters here seem to be British -- but I must say I've been amazed by some of the questions that pop up on this forum from time to time.

A lot of it seems to be basic stuff that any licensed pilot should already know, or which a student pilot should be asking his instructor.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to deter anyone from asking questions here if there's stuff they don't know and need to know.

As one of my theory teachers used to say: "There are no dumb questions in this classroom. The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask."

[piperarcher]

In my experience of 9 years, and having done PPL training, IMCR, Night qualification, and renewals of JAR and FAA licenses with a few different airfield organisations in South East UK, I would disagree with Jan and Rod1. Thats not to say its not their experience, but it isnt mine.

The problem is though, that as a PPL sometimes you are at home, on the train, whatever, and you arent in talking distance of your instructor. You could try him or her on the phone, but either they are flying / with another student, or for longer questions, they might need to charge you the clubs going rate. Therefore it is easier to test and gain understanding from a variety of sources, including on here. Of course the advice cannot be taken as gospel, even from a qualified instructor, as he is not your instructor, delivering your schools syllabus. But its fine to ask, and improve your knowledge anyhow.

The other problem is that most schools or communities have little time or resource to deal with post-PPL subjects (e.g. going somewhere more than 45 minutes away, information on the specifics of a certain airfield, or operation like filing a flight plan or a GAR), or even the most basic like how to use the GPS or even what tablet naviation application they recommend). Most of that is beyond what the schoool exists to provide, but if you are at a good school, then beyond the helpful people here, there will be local pilots who will give you their 'advice' for free.

On forums like this, you can be inspired by what other people have done and begin to think beyond your basic PPL and see what other opportunities exist. After my PPL, I found Peter's trip reports incredibly inspiring - Peter's Trip Reports (http://www.euroga.org/articles/trips/peter/peters-trip-reports)

[ShyTorque]

If you look at who is doing the teaching, you might be able to work out the answer.

Many PPL FIs are low time hour builders with not much experience outside of teaching the basics to others.

[ChickenHouse]

Schools and teacher teach the pilot-to-be how to survive the next 100 flight hours after exam, no more, no less.

The rising questions from students are signature of two current things: first, the tendency to not use your brain but Google or a Forum; second, the bull**** of having faith in something we currently encounter in discussions as swarm intelligence - you do not have to think, because the big thingie around you will tell you. Both are dramatic and stupid, but that is what history will measure us on in 20 years.

[AndrewMcD]

I think there are two elements to it. First - as said above - some people come here and ask questions as "students" when they aren't. This isn't a bad thing and asking questions on the internet is easier than phoning or physically going to a club and asking the questions in person (which can be quite intimidating). I suspect that an awful lot of the really daft questions fall into that category.

The other thing is that when I'm with my FI I'm normally pretty focussed on whatever he's teaching me at the time and so thats where my questions will sit. Generic questions on some of the finer points of - for example - air law or even on the technicalities of aircraft hire in the dim and distant future when I qualify are not at the front of my mind. Lastly FIs are like taxi's, always on the clock! Small or obscure questions are often better asked of experienced pilots for free rather than an expensive FI who has another student waiting...

[Heston]

So the general consensus is that the answer to my original question is, "No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."


Which is kinda what I thought. And I think its wrong. You can see it from the purely commercial point of view of the school, but its why so many PPLs give up flying soon after they start - they're not really equipped to go on and enjoy their flying.

[piperarcher]

So the general consensus is that the answer to my original question is, "No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."


I personally dont agree with that as I have seen clubs go the extra mile. And you could consider training for am IR(Restricted) rating, or a cross-channel checkout as a formal school led way of getting further than just passing the exams.

Which is kinda what I thought. And I think its wrong. You can see it from the purely commercial point of view of the school, but its why so many PPLs give up flying soon after they start - they're not really equipped to go on and enjoy their flying.

That I do agree. In fact I would go further and say it is not the training, and not even the inclusion of not being shown something like SkyDemon as part of the official syllabus, its the fact that a lot of flying school aircraft are not always as attractive as an equivelant privately maintained aircraft, and the whole charging scheme, coupled with the scheduling schemes where the previous renter came back late with empty fuel tanks, much more of a reason to give up x hours after passing. If I didnt get into part-ownership of my Piper Archer II, then I'd have given up a long time ago.

Edit: I was also going to say that using a whizz-wheel, hoping for correctly forecast wind/weather information, and arching your back over the instrument panel constantly hunting for towns and lakes etc in my opinion is not the fun part of flying. Having good skills but coupled with use of some cockpit GPS device, and confidence in it as a situational awareness tool leaves you to a) look out the window more for other aircraft and not things on the ground b) find the fun in the flying, and it should be fun.

[glendalegoon]

Dear Heston:

I've been very surprised by the way our british and european comrades do their teaching. I can't speak for all schools in the USA but I think we do things a little differently.

When I was teaching, I would always ask what my student planned to do with his flying. Some just wanted an interesting hobby, others wanted to have a career in flying, and there were other reasons too.

But I did try to mold their minds into the mind of a pilot. To start thinking like a pilot even before they got their hands on the controls of the plane. To put SAFETY FIRST.

Thinking like a pilot might be something as, when you are out walking around, always observe the winds and know which way they are coming from. It becomes a good habit. And so much more.

My students would always take a bit longer to actually be ready for their PPL flying test. But they would always be ahead of the game farther down the path.

And then there were the books I would assign, over and above what the FAA thinks is needed. And sitting for hours on the instructor's bench to watch landings and takeoffs while listening to an aviation band radio for the "LING" (lingo as you might imagine)>


So, there you go. I've been attacked and seen others attack similar views on this forum, but its just that they have been 'brought up' in a different way.

So, good luck HESTON. Interview your instructors thoroughly. And if they don't have time, you don't want them as instructors!

[Whopity]

"No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."Perhaps that is a very good reason to learn at a "Flying Club" rather than a "Flying School". Like the RAF, more may be learned in the Crew room than the Class room.

[what next]

Like the RAF, more may be learned in the Crew room than the Class room.

I don't know about the RAF, but most of what I needed to learn about flying, I learnt on board of aircraft. From instructors and colleagues.

But I did try to mold their minds into the mind of a pilot.

Although I have been flying for more than 35 years (and instructing for over 20) I have no idea what "the mind of a pilot" might be. All I have encountered is a bunch of individuals who chose to fly aeroplanes (and gliders and hang gliders) out of their free will for a multitude of reasons and with a multitude of different aptitudes and mindsets. I call every one among them a pilot.

[AndoniP]

In my opinion it all depends on where you learn to fly. Even at my old school (Cabair) you would still get quite a few of the instructors (mainly the older ones as the younger ones generally were just waiting for an airline job) quite willing to sit there and discuss your flying future and the options available.

[Heston]

Glendalegoon and Whopity - totally agree with those sentiments. I should confess - I am a flying instructor and I work in a club set-up, not at a commercial school. To me going the extra mile (assigning extra books is a good example) is really important if it makes the difference between folk who are as safe as they can be and are having as much fun as they can on the one hand, and on the other hand people who see getting the licence as the end point not the beginning.


Thanks everybody for helping me be confident that I'm right to think the way I do :)

[Baikonour]

This may be a good time to revisit the old 'How do I choose a school' question.

The standard response is "Don't pay up front. Go for some trial lessons and see which one you like. And don't pay up front. No, really, don't pay up front."

Maybe we could give some better guidance, e.g.:
- Find out how long the instructor(s) has been instructing for
- Will you have just one or several instructors?
- Will you be able to try out different types of planes (if you wanted to)?
- Will they be able to help you gain other ratings post-PPL?
- Ask them if they organise fly-outs or if you can 'sit in' (or just participate) on club flights
- Find out if they have any experience (even if they have 'just tried for fun') taildragging, aerobatics, strip flying, gliding, seaplanes...
- What is their opinion on the various books available? Can they lend you Stick and Rudder?
- Do they read the internet forums? ;)

B.

[Piper.Classique]

No, I can't lend you 'Stick and Rudder'
I am on my third copy, as people 'forget' to return it.
I can tell you where to BUY a copy.
I'm not on the clock, you can ask me questions.
I instruct in a CLUB, for expenses only; you may buy me a beer after the flying is finished for the day.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I must admit: aerodromes with a bar have an advantage there. Some instructors, but alas not all of them, are easily persuaded to stay for one more drink and tell a few stories more. Even if some of their stories have become so ubiquitous as to be part of legend, and others have nothing to do with aviation, still it is always worth its while. But mind you, one does not need to be an enlisted student to enjoy this extended learning.

Luckily, most fields over here have a bar, generally a quite good bar even. But there are those instructors who can't get out of the plane and into their car quick enough, to drive home; more's the pity!

[thing]

Many PPL FIs are low time hour builders with not much experience outside of teaching the basics to others.

I know a FI who has less hours than me...which is a bit scary being as I still consider myself very much a novice at this game. How can people become instructors with barely three hundred hours? You don't know your arse from your elbow with only three hundred hours. No disrespect to them by the way, they are the regs and they are making the most of them. Fill yer boots as they say.

[Whopity]

How can people become instructors with barely three hundred hours?A PPL holder with 300 hours can make a very good studednt on an FI course especially if they have not gone down the commercial path. 300 hours can be adequate experience if you have done the right things in that 300 hours.

[thing]

It's the 'adequate' experience bit that makes me wonder. I wouldn't have wanted any of my instructors to be merely adequate. They were all crusty old ex CFS with a trillion hours apiece. I would have thought that a couple of thousand hours would be more like it. It would stop people becoming instructors just to hours build as well.

[ShyTorque]

I had just under 1500 hours (most of it as captain of a single pilot, 7 tonne helicopter) when the RAF, in its wisdom, sent me kicking and screaming to be a helicopter instructor. I said I knew almost nothing about flying helicopters and didn't want to go but they threatened me with a ground tour. So I gave in. But I was right, I knew nothing. I soon wished I'd taken the ground tour....and so did my students. :O

[foxmoth]

There is a lot here about the instructor being willing to spend the time here, often though, when the weather is good it is a case of 30 - 40mins brief and preflight, hours flight, 15 mins debrief and then next student - often you would run late, which is why most instructors/ex instructors bolt their lunch! In this time any decent instructor WILL try and instill as much airmanship etc as they can. What the students need to do is come in when the weather is actually too bad to fly, this is when the instructors have the time to sit and chat more, unfortunately most students see this as a waste of time.:=

[JEM60]

Foxmoth. Agree totally. Although a PPL, my teaching experience was in Driving Instruction [39 years of sitting next to pretty girls.] Parallels can be drawn. It is very much a question of time, pressure with the next student waiting etc. Anybody out there really keen on learning to fly will have the books out, eat, sleep, and breath the subject before and after the lesson. I used to sit in an armchair after my wife had gone to bed, and flew circuits etc. ad nauseam until I had it off pat. This is very easy to do, as is writing down your queries, trying to find the answer in the books, and then tackling someone in the know. Very, very good advice to go to the airfield when flying is not possible. Instructors, driving and flying, teach you to pass exams. Wether or not you progress from that point is ENTIRELY up to your own enthusiasm!!.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

There is a lot here about the instructor being willing to spend the time here, often though, when the weather is good it is a case of 30 - 40mins brief and preflight, hours flight, 15 mins debrief and then next student - often you would run late, which is why most instructors/ex instructors bolt their lunch! In this time any decent instructor WILL try and instill as much airmanship etc as they can. What the students need to do is come in when the weather is actually too bad to fly, this is when the instructors have the time to sit and chat more, unfortunately most students see this as a waste of time.

Very true! But you need a club with a 'social side' for this to work well. Lancs Aero Club at Barton in the 70s (and for a couple of decades after that) was such a place, and I learned a great deal on non-flying days by turning up anyway and buying the instructor a coffee in the clubhouse, or chatting to experienced pilots in the clubhouse or working on aeroplanes in the hangars.

I sense that back then we were aware that to get the most 'bang for buck' we had to take all such opportunities (which only cost the price of a coffee!), and to steer our training to what we felt we needed to learn as we also had many different instructors. In other words, we were 'in charge' of the situation rather than being led by the hand.

Doesn't work at a 'flying school' with no such facilities.

[foxmoth]

Doesn't work at a 'flying school' with no such facilities.

I have not yet come across a school that does not have an area that you can sit down and chat with the instructors when the weather is duff, may be a lounge, briefing area, bar, or somewhere else, but it can be done in most schools/clubs if the student and instructor are both willing.

[9 lives]

I don't think it's the school's responsibility.
I think it's the student's.

This is key. The student is the client. The client dictates the service. Now, of course there are licenses and regulations which you may choose to follow, but you can do less, meet the minimums, or specify more.

When I trained for my helicopter license, I deliberately trained to not achieve a helicopter PPL for a few years - for what I wanted to do with a helicopter, a PPL in one was a liability, not an asset. The school and I agreed, and I was a student for years, happily taking the training I specified (which went way beyond the minimums in some cases), but I did not finish the license for years. Finally, it was foolish not to, and I did, but I have not flown a helicopter solo since - hence my wanting to remain a protracted student.

The student can say "just train me to pass the tests", or they can say please train me to fly ........ [type pf aircraft, type of maneuvers, type of operations.]. I was type training a new owner in his 182 amphibian a few weeks ago in Norway. He told me what he wanted for training. I did that training, as asked, and filled out around the edges of the subjects. He is a PPL, and flies fine. He flies better now.

Students, you tell the school/club what you want to achieve. If it's "just the license" than that's about what you'll get, and then you can continue to work toward being a pilot from there....

[glendalegoon]

whatnext...

I've been around about 40 years and I do think there is the mind of a pilot.

Sadly, many who fly for a living don' t have the mind of a pilot.

Some of the better books by real pilots begin to touch upon the mind of a pilot, but only obliquely.

Example of not a mind of a pilot would be the copilot flying the air france 447.

Wolfgang Langweische writes that flying is done largely with the mind. Pushing buttons is not of the mind.

Ask yourself who the great pilots were? Lindbergh, Wilbur and Orville Wright, Doolittle and others. Begin to understand the mind of a pilot through books or real interaction with other pilots.

I could speak of a pilot named Bill. No one here is likely to know him, but he could fly and his mind was fine for flying.

I could speak of EK Gann and some beautiful words, perhaps some of you will know the book and chapter...Eastern Pilots are singularly determined and clever...


so whatnext, sorry you haven't picked up on the mind of a pilot.


teaching someone to fly is one thing...teaching them to think like a pilot is something else.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Quote:
Doesn't work at a 'flying school' with no such facilities.
I have not yet come across a school that does not have an area that you can sit down and chat with the instructors when the weather is duff, may be a lounge, briefing area, bar, or somewhere else, but it can be done in most schools/clubs if the student and instructor are both willing.

Hmmm. Not the same thing. Having operated from from Barton, and from flying schools at a major airfield, one would go to Barton even on a non-flying day as there was an active aviation-related social scene, a bit like a local pub with hangars and aeroplanes, and populated by aviators. Lots going on and lots of folk to chat to.

The 'big airfield' flying schools did have a lounge area but it was sterile in comparison. A bit like a pre-bookable meeting room at work. As I say, not the same thing.

If one turned up at Barton and couldn't fly, or if one flew and had put the aeroplane away, one would partake in the conversations and camraderie in the clubhouse or the hangars. If one turned up at the 'big airfield' schools and couldn't fly, or had finished flying, one went home as there was no other alternative.

[rarelyathome]

While pilots come from all walks of life and have a myriad of reasons for wanting to do what we do, I would hope there is something that could be described as the mind of a pilot in all of us. For me that would be about pride in flying safely and accurately while enjoying myself. Flying safely is about a mindset that flight safety starts at that first lesson and then never stops. It is about continuous learning, whether that be from talking to instructors and other pilots in the club/school, keeping up to date with regulations (even if they are unfathomable sometimes!), learning from other's mistakes, knowing one's own limits and having a plan for when you reach them, knowing the aircraft's limits, etc, etc, etc. Flying accurately is about not getting on the slippery slope of accepting 'close enough for government work' as we used to joke in a past life. Fly the heights/altitudes/levels and headings accurately and have pride in doing so. If you're using a radio, know the correct phraseology and be succinct. And in all of this, enjoy the experience and have fun doing it.

We all come from different backgrounds but I would sincerely hope that we all have the mindset of a pilot. Of course, every time I fly my hopes are dashed a little by both my own performance and that of others but it doesn't stop me hoping!

[thing]

I could speak of EK Gann and some beautiful wordsI must have read hundreds of books about flying during my lifetime but I can honestly say that old Ernie's book had a profound influence on the way I think about and approach flying. By a country mile the best book ever written about aviation IMO.

I would hope there is something that could be described as the mind of a pilot in all of us.

Do you ever fly with pilots who have that missing? They may be perfectly safe operators but they are driving the aircraft rather than flying it. Hard to define what I mean but I know the difference.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Likewise, and 'Fate' is one of my favorite aviation books. But it was Bach's 'A Gift of Wings' that inspired me to fly.

[thing]

I had a copy of that. Beautifully written book that I lent and never got back decades ago and can I hell find a copy now. The chapter that sticks in my mind is the one where he is just sitting in the cockpit on the ground describing the potential of his aircraft. Another one of Bach's that I have which is very good is 'Stranger to the Ground.'

[Piper.Classique]

Thing, if you can do ebook amazon.com have most of Bach's work available.

[thing]

Everything but a Gift of Wings...! However I've just bought a second hand hardback copy for £4.52 so thanks for the prompt :).