Labour demand to know each time a Tornado takes off!

[ShotOne]

As part of the agreement to support military action by the RAF in Iraq, Harriet Harman has requested to be informed before aircraft take off on every single mission. To be fair to her party, even her own colleagues have described the demand as "bonkers". Presumably Ms Harman just wants to check over the fuel and weapon loads to make sure the crews haven't made any careless mistakes.

[Whenurhappy]

Source for this, err, assertion?

[capewrath]

That well known paragon of truth and comedy:-

Ring me every time a Tornado takes off: Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman mocked after making request to David Cameron during emergency shadow cabinet meeting | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2772285/Ring-time-Tornado-takes-Labour-deputy-leader-Harriet-Harmen-mocked-making-request-David-Cameron-emergency-shadow-cabinet-meeting.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)

[Whenurhappy]

Ah, OK then. Without foundation.

[Wensleydale]

Hopefully at 0330 every morning....

[Chronic Snoozer]

How about getting a call after they've landed safely?:oh:

[Just This Once...]

Perhaps this is an astute political commentary on our remaining FJ capability?

A conflict or so ago this would be impractical and would deprive said MP of sleep. Now reduced to launching a pair of aircraft (plus tanker) it would be entirely feasible.

A recall of parliament for a deployed flight of 6 aircraft launching as pairs every so often. Sad, really sad.

[Courtney Mil]

If she wants to ensure no unnecessary civilian casualties, I can only guess she wants to check the targeting plan or to put details of the missions on Tw!tter. Neither sounds good to me.

[Exascot]

The solution to all her concerns and the intel she wants is to put her on the ground there as a forward air controller. :ok:

[Minnie Burner]

Labour demand to know each time a Tornado takes off!

So they can let their boss Raz Putin know?

[NutLoose]

Simple answer is to fly her out to Cyprus and chain her to the perimeter fence on approach :)

[Valiantone]

While your at it, securing her to the fence, can you take the irritating Wallace and Co with her?

:E

V1

[nutnurse]

Wait until she starts demanding to know the gender ratio of pilots and whether each a/c captain carried out a cost: benefit analysis before launching each weapon.

[whisperer]

Conscript her and her cronies, send them out to AKI as the Ops assitants tea girl/boy, then they would get a better picture.......

[gr4techie]

Labour demand to know each time a Tornado takes off!

With the amount of noise the god damn things make. (Variable noise constant speed). Surely Labour will be able to hear them take off all the way from Westminster.

[Roadster280]

Perhaps this is an astute political commentary on our remaining FJ capability?


Perhaps this is an astute commentary on the remaining political capability?

[CoffmanStarter]

Anyone got her number ? I'll be doing my usual morning constitutional bombing run around 06:30 Local tomorrow ... thought I'd let her know :E

What an a$$ ... Her not me that is :}

[NutLoose]

You could phone her 1am...we are launching...1.45 it's gone tech.... 2.15 were generating the spare.... 2.45 were due to depart 3am... 3.15 launched and enroute.... 3.45 returning due to weather over target.... 4am feet dry... 4.15 down... A week of that would do :E

[clunckdriver]

The last politico who tried to micro manage a war was LBJ, it didnt go too well by the way.

[CoffmanStarter]

Good idea Nutty ... Perhaps I should also use appropriate Code Words like "FLOATER" or "SINKER" ... God help her if I declare a "SPLASHBACK" :eek:

[Dysonsphere]

The last politico who tried to micro manage a war was LBJ, it didnt go too well by the way.

Funny enough thats the first thing that crossed my mind. You would have thought they read there mil history.. Hang thats not PC for Labour so there reinventing the wheel.

[BigX]

The last politico who tried to micro manage a war was LBJ, it didnt go too well by the way.

The micro management is far from limited to LBJ. Every night's target in Kosovo (1999) was pre-approved by Blair. Still didn't stop the Russkies getting boots on ground in Nis first.

[Herod]

Why not ring her for approval EVERY time an RAF aircraft is about to take-off. Everything from Tucanos upwards. I'm sure we have some very late night/early morning movements. Give it a week. Simples

[Hangarshuffle]

You did a few posts back. When you think about it, in late 2014 what is actually so bad about the original idea (if its true)? from an Politicians viewpoint?
Technology is there now that men could put a live feed camera from the aircraft, from the weapon even onto a live TV link. Beam it out live on TV, bit like Springwatch or the footy....
Viz - Politicians expect to be kept in absolute constant touch info via their phones and staff gophers - vital to be "in the loop".
This live feed stuff has been going on for ages anyway, some most even of you know this.
Live drone links and the like...


Biggest micro managers of men in war recently must be Thatcher (Belgrano and more..) and Sir Winston Churchill, shurely?


But to add, its more sinister (for the combat aircrews) because its about monitoring. Harriet is simply stepping up the level of monitoring, of audit. The poor people fighting at the air front, now, are under a level of scrutiny unheard of. I think its now upon the military something I've thought for while, since the Sgt RM was sentenced to life imprisonment, that your every move is now monitored and commented and judged upon.
I would be happier if the Sec of State had stood up in the H of C before this started and said "I absolve any aircrew of blame if you misdirect your weaponry onto innocents" or the like.
In this war, if the aircrew hit or kill the innocent bystander, the technology is there and will be used to hang them out to dry.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Did you mean Goofers or a big wet wave?

Regarding Churchill and "long screwdrivers", they thankfully didn't have instant satellite Comms and data links in those days. I'm not sure it would have made poor Dudley Pound's life any less easy, though.

[Wander00]

I'm with Herod - a call to the idiot woman every time anything takes off

[air pig]

If she wants to micromanage and approve, any of the 'uman rights' lawyers can drop off the arrest warrant with her name on at the local police station. If you want a say, you carry the can at the end of the day.

I'm sure the strike planners and aircrew can put in the paperwork and details of the mission, just say to her and her ilk, just sign here as the authoriser.

[smujsmith]

Whatever the suspicions and loyalties of Millibands morons in this "request", it's obvious surely that every time a Tornado departs AKR some SI eyeball, sat enjoying a Brandy sour on a beach in Limassol, will get on his bendy iphone 6 and inform his jihadist pals in Iraq. As previous posters have commented, I'm waiting for Hattie Harperson to demand to know the ratio of female participation in the effort. I hope I live long enough to see people like her and her chums evicted from our lives.

Smudge

[Finningley Boy]

Maybe she's just taking an interest because truth be known, she simply finds it all very interesting? Perhaps Hattie is a spotter of quite some magnitude on the QT? Has she asked for Tail codes and airframe registration numbers etc?:8

FB:)

[Training Risky]

I just get fed up seeing these kind of trivial articles constantly pumped out to remind us of the high priority of social-engineering in HM Forces:

Female Top Gun leads UK's first Iraq combat mission as Britain goes to war for first time in six years | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2772162/Female-Top-Gun-leads-UK-s-Iraq-combat-mission-Britain-goes-war-time-six-years.html)

We are constantly reminded that it's no big deal that we have female aircrew...so why is it newsworthy!!!

[TBM-Legend]

meanwhile a crack combined flight of Tornados and UAE F-16's will take to the air in support of the crack troops of the Kurds....

Pun intended and good luck to all in this nasty conflict...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Hangarshuffle,

I would be happier if the Sec of State had stood up in the H of C before this started and said "I absolve any aircrew of blame if you misdirect your weaponry onto innocents" or the like.
In this war, if the aircrew hit or kill the innocent bystander, the technology is there and will be used to hang them out to dry.

Got anything to back that up? I've seen the technology used to disseminate Reaper feeds around the world; those guys are under vastly more scrutiny than GR4 crews are, with their feeds seen by more people, and they've fired a much larger amount of weapons than the GR4 fleet over the last few years.

There are always mistakes in war, and there was one publicised Reaper one. I was involved enough with the GR4 in HERRICK to know about a few mistakes there, and what happened to all the crews involved. No-one was "hung out to dry" based on their feed, and there wasn't any intent that I saw at any level to blame crews for any sort of honest mistake.

Why do you think that will be different in SHADER compared with ELLAMY and HERRICK?

[dagenham]

Hey mrs Harriman, tally me tornada
Daylight come and me wanna go home


Etc etc

[dat581]

Time to put a few Tornados on night circuit training in Cyprus. Call her every time wheels leave the ground.

[NutLoose]

Just task all night flights over Harman Towers... just to let her know we all care.

[Bill4a]

If there are IS spotters on the beach, why not fly a lot of trips and see if we can't break their economy re mobile calls?

[barnstormer1968]

Dysonsphere

In post #21 you refer to military history.
For all any of us know Harman may be very well read in military history, it just might be that she read up on Ho Chi Minh rather than LBJ :)

[pr00ne]

TrainingRisky,

High cost of social engineering in the RAF?

She got through, you got chopped, get over it!

I do hope you run into her one day and have to explain to her what you meant.

[Stendec5]

Given the parlous state of the RAF these days I don't suppose the bitch will be greatly disturbed by the dog n bone. Whoops, did I say "dog?" What WAS I thinking of.

[Training Risky]

Oh 'Poo'ne...

I was rather hoping you had popped your clogs by now...you utter internet hardman cold-war warrior you.

Moving on from my desperate posts of 12 years ago - I have got on with my life rather well. I fail to see what that has to do with the MOD PR machine shoving female aircrew/soldiers/submariners down our throats until we get 'on message'.

More to the point - the female pilots I know wouldn't want their gender to be the focus of media reporting - it's not an issue.

[AR1]

The story assumes that Cameron is rung every time one takes off. That's the issue if true.
As for Harman. You're not Gov Luv. On your bike.

[pr00ne]

Training Risky,


Well, seeing as you both reposted the article AND brought up what you describe as "the high cost of social engineering in the RAF" bit of a double own goal there eh?

[ex_matelot]

Nothing to do with politics - it's a classic case of a nonentity seeking to become a stakeholder in a process that she has zero understanding of, nor influence over. She just seeks the illusion of "involvement".

A classic tactic played by managers promoted way above their capabilities in many fields...
"I want to be cc'd on that".

[jayteeto]

They need Labour's votes in Westminster. Harperson is doing this to make them squirm. Playing party politics over what is the right thing to do. Don't joke about her demanding more women to be involved, she has history of it in all industries. A truly repulsive woman.

[Finningley Boy]

Surely even David Cameron doesn't get woken from his slumber every time a Tornado takes off on an agreed sortie!?

FB:)

[racedo]

Surely even David Cameron doesn't get woken from his slumber every time a Tornado takes off on an agreed sortie!?

I wish he did.

"Hey Call Me Dave, another aircrew are putting their lives at risk because you politicians screwed up again. now go back to sleep".

[NutLoose]

The war is won, haven't you heard, we blew up a truck and took out a gun pit... But listening to the press you would think we've just single handedly turned the tide of the war... Well done guys, but next time could you please take out the press corp hotel first and save us from all the verbiage.

[gr4techie]

Expensive way to take out a machine gun.

[taxydual]

Anyone on here from Camberwell or Peckham?

If you are, it seems you can ask her what her reasoning is.

Contact Me | IWC2 (http://www.harrietharman.org/contact_me)


Go on, I dare you.

[racedo]

Expensive way to take out a machine gun.

What was cost ? £500k ?

[Martin the Martian]

Thank you gr4techie and racedo. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Accepting that it's off centreline on this Thread but is this sort of detail really helpful?
RAF jets fired four missiles at Islamic State (IS) vehicles in Iraq overnight, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.

It said two Tornados had fired Brimstone missiles at an armed pick-up truck and a transport vehicle west of the Iraqi capital Baghdad, adding that the strikes had been "successful".

"At the scene they were able to identify Isil activity and two vehicles, one of which was an armed pick-up truck," it said.

"Four Brimstone missiles were used to conduct a precision attack on the vehicles. Initial analysis indicates that the strikes were successful."

BBC News - Islamic State vehicles targeted by RAF Tornados (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29440577)

Leaving aside doing the IS Int wallahs work for them do the people on the Clapham omnibus need to know the kill ratios? At least they haven't trotted out the rate book value of each round; yet.

[racedo]

Thank you gr4techie and racedo. I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

My worry is will RAF run out of missiles before ISIS run out of Toyota HiLuxs ....................

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Based on the Top Gear tests, it probably takes at least 4 Brimstones to take out a HiLux !

[Herod]

A couple of 20mm Adens would have come in handy, and cheaper.

[Bob Viking]

I'm sorry but I just can't help myself. The Aden is a 30mm cannon that was never fitted to Tornados. The Mauser that is fitted to the GR4 is a 27mm cannon.

We often complain about the inaccuracy of journalists when it comes to matters of defence so we really should hold ourselves to the highest standards in this regard.

Your suggestion had some validity but was ruined in the execution.

Now take yourself off to a quiet corner and self flaggelate please.

BV:=

[racedo]

I'm sorry but I just can't help myself. The Aden is a 30mm cannon that was never fitted to Tornados. The Mauser that is fitted to the GR4 is a 27mm cannon.Relatively easy to Retro fit...................... just think of a number add lots of zeros and there you have it.

Should really add that if you wish your retro fit to work................ not correctly just work that requires lots more money.......................... there are shareholders and directors bonuses to think of.

[Wensleydale]

If we are in a picky mood.... shouldn't it now be called a "South Yemen" Cannon?

[Finningley Boy]

Aden had a better ring to it.:}

FB:)

[Herod]

OK Bob, I stand corrected. It was only a light-hearted comment anyway. I'm a long was out of the RAF, and the nearest I got to an armed aircraft was a Wessex with a 7.62(?)mm GPMG firing out of the door. Funnily enough, it was in Aden (Yemen to the purists).

[Wensleydale]

I once had a date with a Turkish belly dancer in Aden....she was known as the Yemen Kurd Tart.

[ValMORNA]

I knew her sister quite well, Shakin' Othman.

[NutLoose]

One of the guys I worked with told me he was on guard in Aden armed with a .303. He was told to let off a round if he spotted anything cracking off and everyone would come to his aid, about 3am he spotted intruders, fired in the general direction and they buggered off.
No one came lol and in the morning he faced an enquiry as to why he was short one round.

[Training Risky]

Maybe Herod was making a reference that a couple of Harriers should have been firing the Aden cannon - in a parallel world in which Cameron had not scrapped them prior to a major period of world instability.

Meanwhile - the desperately right-on MOD-to-journalist gravy train rumbles on to remind us of our duty to 'equality'

British Tornado 'with female air crew' bombs key Isil position - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11134662/British-Tornado-with-female-air-crew-bombs-key-Isil-position.html)

[cobalt42]

Training

The Harriers would have to be GR3... The 7/9's never had an ADEN Gun that worked!

Too long ago to be sure... Was ADEN an acronym for 'Armaments Development, ENfield', or similar?

[nimbev]

I recall working on a cost benefit analysis involving aircraft taking out T72 MBT's in the Central Front, didnt make very good reading as I recall - but Brimstone vs pick up trucks! Better quickly pass over the chapter on Economic Warfare.:(

[Sandy Parts]

lucky the bit in ROEs about 'proportional response' doesn't mention 'cost benefit analysis'. Mind you, if I was on the receiving end of the .50cal(?) shells from one of those wildly inaccurate technicals, I'd vote for the biggest, most expensive bomb in the arsenal :E

[Al R]

As the National Council of Civil Liberty's legal officer Harman campaigned for sentences against paedophiles convicted for possession of indecent images to be reduced if it could be proved that the naked/photographed children had not been ‘harmed’. She and her kind had their day in the sun with Blair and ran amok with myopic vote winning social engineering. A truly dreadful woman and a vacuous and irrelevant political entity to boot.