Gear up landing YARM

[Innominate11]

UPDATE: Plane down at Armidale Airport | The Armidale Express (http://www.armidaleexpress.com.au/story/2578123/update-plane-down-at-armidale-airport/?cs=471)

Looks expensive...... Wonder if it was mechanical failure or pilot error

[Spinner73]

Admirable restraint shown there - not one use of the 'C' word...
(Cessna, that is.:rolleyes:)

[yr right]

Forgot to select the gear into the D.O.W.N position. A week out of a new paint job to I was told. Mmm

[Capt Fathom]

Forgot to select the gear into the D.O.W.N position
Please tell me the pilot involved in this incident has freely admitted this!

[Creampuff]

Was that prop rotating when the aircraft landed?

[RadioSaigon]

Not for long.

[yr right]

Yes creamy the prop had little or no rotation.
This stop the rotation of the D.O.W.N switch locking device which lock the wheels in the U.P position. As the wheels where locked in this position it's unable to unlock the D.O.W.N activation of the switch.
Hence the wheels stayed in the U.P POSITION. How ever to remove the aircraft a slight rotation of the prop allowed the switch to unlock and the wheels came into the D. O. W. N. Position.

[Creampuff]

I anticipate that I may regret this…

Are you saying that the propeller wasn’t rotating at all or sufficiently before the landing, and that it’s necessary for the propeller to be rotating in order to allow the undercarriage to be extended?

When I see an aircraft ‘wheels up’ with little-to-no damage to the propeller, I wonder whether it’s had an engine failure and the pilot’s landed as quickly as possible while concentrating on things more important than the wheels. Are you saying that absent propellor rotation, the wheels can't be extended on this kind of aicraft? If that's correct, I'd suggest the pilot didn't 'forget' to extend the wheels.

[yr right]

No creamy all that happened was he forgot to put wheels down. As for admitting it unsure but I'll make a call and try and find out. And as for any pilot admitting they forgot. That's the 8 the wonder of the world if anyone dose

[Creampuff]

I knew I'd regret it...

Are you saying that the undercarriage cannot be unlocked for extension unless the propeller is rotating? It’s a yes or no answer that doesn’t need embellishment with your dyslexia shtick.[T]he prop had little or no rotation.

This stop[ed] the rotation of the D.O.W.N switch locking device which lock[s] the wheels in the U.P position. …

Hence the wheels stayed in the U.P POSITION. However, to remove the aircraft a slight rotation of the prop allowed the switch to unlock and the wheels came into the D. O. W. N. Position.

[BlatantLiar]

Best exchange I've read on the prunes for a while. :D

[Capn Bloggs]

It’s a yes or no answer that doesn’t need embellishment with your dyslexia shtick.

No creamy all that happened was he forgot to put wheels down.
Creamy, what don't you understand about "no"? :}

[pcx]

Capn, I think you should reread yr right's post #7 again.
I am still trying to understand it and would like to know if there really is an undercarriage system that will not allow extension if the engine is stopped. ie. not rotating.

[Creampuff]

I think the Cap'n had his tongue planted firmly in his cheek, but there's not an emoticon for that. ;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

And as for any pilot admitting they forgot. That's the 8 the wonder of the world if anyone dose

I had the nosewheel fold up on a Chieftain once. The aircraft was sitting there on the runway on its mains and its nose, and the LAME accused me of forgeting to extend the wheels :rolleyes:

[Capt Claret]

Horatio, I heard the LAME observed you pumping away on the manual extension handle, thus extending the mains before the LAME got to the aircraft. :}:8

[yr right]

I had a dual engine change in a chieftain cause pilot place the handle to the up position before start up. Second engine came on line and as Hyd px came up so did the nose wheel. Not sure how many removals I've done on runways when jack and gear selected down whoop whoop gear comes down. With exception to too strikes.

[yr right]

Hey creamie why don't you tells us how you forgot to select DOWN in Canberra.

[Pontius]

Does anyone have the deciphering machine necessary to make sense of Yr Right's posts? I think he was trying to be sarcastic but doesn't have the English skills to do so and ended up writing unintelligible nonsense.

Of course, the incoherence could be the result of several beers, in which case well done.

[yr right]

There is no relatiship between engine and the u/c. None nothing nil. Whith expection to Hyd system pumps. In which case there is by regulation a secondary system to place the gear down in the case of pump or engine failure.

[Jabawocky]

Hey creamie why don't you tells us how you forgot to select DOWN in Canberra.

Steve,

He did tell us, all. And he was man enough to write a decent article and have it published so every Tom, Dick and Harry could read about it. And LEARN from it.

While I am at it, lets see what our friend John Deakin had to say about almost becoming the highest time, youngest to command and then first to wheels up the mighty B747.

Some folk deserve a lot more respect than you give them :=

Pelican's Perch #80: Gear-Up Landing In A 747? - AVweb Features Article (http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html?redirected=1)

[gerry111]

yr right wrote:


"Hey creamie why don't you tells us how you forgot to select DOWN in Canberra." (sic)


That's totally false.


The facts were well covered in 'Flight Safety Australia' magazine. :=

[Jabawocky]

Here is another thought……

Perhaps he had a post maintenance induced issue, had the fan stop and realised that making the runway with the gear up actually beats landing short due drag, and crashing into the (pick one: creek bank, house, hangar, trees, power lines/poles) obstacles off field.

Perhaps this guy did an A1 brilliant job.

Time will tell.

[mcgrath50]

For those interested I did a google to find the canberra gear up article mentioned above. An interesting read.

www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1999/sep/wheelsup.pdf

My initial instructor had obviously read the article as I remember one day retracting flaps casually in a C152 while still on the runway (feeling happy at my efficiency now that I was a masterful 15 hour pilot), getting my hand swatted away and a very stern telling of the above story.

Interestingly some hundreds of hours on from that moment, reading this article has made me realise I probably have slipped to being a little too casual with flap retraction again, so thanks for bringing it up.

:ok:

[Old Fella]

C McK is to be, and probably has been, commended for his full and frank explanation as to what took place in the accident at Canberra. His article in the Aviation Safety magazine is compelling reading and contains a lesson for any pilot, novice through to the most experienced.

The old saying that "Familiarity breeds Contempt" comes to mind. We are all potential victims of our own familiarity with the equipment or practices often used. The real lesson uin the article for me is the need to "positively identify before actuation". Murphy's Law is ever present and as C McK explained the Bonanza with similar switches for Gear and Flap is a good example.

Thanks C McK, your story reinforces the belief I have long held that every day in aviation is an opportunity to learn something new or refresh our memory on something old.

This link relates to the need to positively identify before taking action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disaster

[Jabawocky]

I thought they both hated me....

If it makes you feel any better…….we all do :}:}

:E

DB :ok:

[Stikybeke]

I wonder if Steve's figured out who he is ?

Stiky
:D

[Kharon]

The inestimable 'Creampuff' is always worth reading, with some respect. The whimsical, waspish posts speak of a subtle, pawky humour, intelligence and native wit. Brother Creampuff is a valued contributor to, and mediator of some of the IOS more tenuous adventures into the grown up realms of 'legal', refer CVD, Senate and other matters political; not to mention the gentle, but persistent persuasion to grow up and grasp reality i.e. the way things are, have been IMO, of great value.

The McKenzie article on the unfortunate 'incident' is, as Jabba says, well crafted, comprehensible, logical, lucid and (for a bonus point) grammatically correct. Gerry remarks; – the 'facts' were established, well documented and the errors corrected. On the other hand – alas, there are others, who contribute little of any value, cannot offer priceless advice, equivalent sagacity or even plain logic. Just an eternal quest for ego fodder; or is it acceptance? or, just some juvenile urge to disrupt interesting discussion amongst adults. Always interesting to note time lines; some folk 'claim' to be working; but the Pprune posts suggest a full time occupation different to that advertised; curious that is..

Some facts here would be nice; for example – what type, model, mark and make is the unfortunate aircraft ?, was the engine operational ?; stuff like that, you know 'pilot' type questions; not some half assed low level, snipe attack, amateurishly aimed at the wrong target.

Now then; whatever happened to good manners, courtesy and a modicum of respect? A mistake was made – we learned from it. I find, so far, within this thread very little of value, except, perhaps bully's, cowards and clowns become more readily identifiable; if less comprehensible, as time goes by.

My best regards to Creamy; also to Mr. McKenzie to whom, I am advised belated congratulations must be offered for 1000 hours of almost incident free operation. Bravo and many more to come (GW&WP)..:D

(Small round of applause from those who may truly, innocently ask – on what type?)....;)

[Horatio Leafblower]

I wonder if Steve's figured out who he is ?

Steve’s off on his usual insecurity tantrums,

Well THAT's fodder for LAME baiting if ever I saw it.

[Neville Nobody]

Typical prune thread, 90% of the posts are pocket pi$$ing and not relevant.


Was the aircraft local?

[Mach E Avelli]

Nev, while I agree that there is irrelevance in many posts, how is the aircraft's provenance relevant?
Surely the only relevance is whether the accident was the result of a mechanical fault or finger trouble. Then it would be nice to know why it, or the pilot, failed.

[Draggertail]

FlightAware showed VH-DBW leaving Bankstown for Armidale early on the morning of the incident. That aircraft is a Lancair 360.

[Kharon]

Sorry Clinton, I phrased that badly – I was simply interested in on what type of aircraft you flew to make the milestone; curiosity now satisfied. Very valuable hours, those spent on cross country, they 'season' and mature a pilot in a way that is not reflected or quantified by the numbers at the bottom of a log book page. Congratulations and, by the by, no 1000 hours stand alone is ever completely 'incident' free, even in the V 35.

I was intrigued by the allusion to no donkey = no gear and wondered what type of single engine aircraft relied solely on hydraulics to operate the gear, without an accumulator or similar; particularly if the undercarriage system is electrically actuated. It implies additional weight and redundancy. How does the C 210 get around the issues, I believe the type has a hydraulic system – some form of mechanical release for the up-locks, plus stand pipe residual and good old gravity?? I expect.

Anyway – just harmless curiosity.

[Old Fella]

Kharon, reference your question about the C210. The gear is hydraulically actuated. An electrically driven hydraulic pump provides the required pressure, up to a max of about 1500 psi. When the gear is selected UP the pump motor is activated and the gear retracts. Pump motor power is removed when the pressure reaches 1500 psi (will be repowered if pressure drops to around 1000 psi) and the residual pressure in the UP line keeps the Main Gear retracted and an integral UP lock locks the NLG up. When the gear is selected DOWN the pump will run, provided the pressure is below 1000 psi (which it should be because the DOWN line would be unpressurised) and the gear will be extended, again hydraulic pressure holding the Main Gear in the Down & Locked position and an integral lock in the NLG actuator holding it Down & Locked. Manual extension is achieved by using a hand pump, located between the pilots seats. It seems there is no stand-pipe in the reservoir so if all hydraulic fluid is lost the hand pump will not help. Standard warning horn activation is provided if the throttle is retarded far enough when the Gear is not Down & Locked. As far as I know there is one Amber Light which indicates Gear UP and one Green light for all Gear DOWN.

[Stikybeke]

Well here's some interesting reading about the Lancair 360's hydraulic and electrical background for the landing gear....

http://n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Lancair%20Hydraulics.pdf

It would appear that this aircraft has it's share of hidden (but still identifiable) issues with configuration and maintenance of the landing gear. There's also some alarming reading with regards to the sudden and probably quite unforeseeable arrival of an inability to extend gear in the event of some pressure problems or an electrical failure.

I guess the big question here is was the aircraft taking off or landing?

If taking off the Lancair (remember Ron Bertram's fatal accident at YSBK) can suffer fuel supply issues leading to engine stoppage if not managed correctly and coupled with a very high initial rate of climb. If this was the case and engine had stopped then the pilot has done very well to revert back to No 1 priority, i.e. Aviate!!

In any case and regardless of the cause of engine stoppage or whatever, the pilot has done very well to get the aircraft back on the ground without injury to anyone.

Stiky

[Kharon]

Thank you OF and Sticky – most refreshing. The Lancair system notes help to explain – THIS.