CSAR...Why not?

[ShotOne]

This question has been triggered by a comment on another thread; SAR is soon to be civilianised in UK, much lamented by some on this forum despite the fact that in many (most?) countries SAR has always been a civilian task. Yet we've never had CSAR capability, there's been no serious call or apparent interest in it. Why not? Surely given the present threats, this would be the most useful capability. And yes, I know there's no money but this long predates the present ££mess.

[TheWizard]

One word- 'Merica

[GalleyTeapot]

We can make use of NATO allies capabilities most likely, all ops these days are coalitions of some sort.

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember CSAR requires rather more than a helicopter.

Nick Richardson's story of EinE in Bosnia gives a good account of modern CSAR.

Even in the 60s we were reliant on the cousins and friends.

[ShotOne]

..that's kind of my point, pontius

[nimbev]

Yet we've never had CSAR capability,

Shetland, Stornoway, Solent and Portland helicopters have been civilian operated for years.

[More lookout]

Was dabbled with in the 90's by the RAF SAR force. No real funding or resources, to be effective.

[Uncle Ginsters]

There has been interest in the RW world but never been seriously followed through in a joined up way.

As PN says a 'true' CSAR/JPR package is a huge undertaking; in fact, probably bigger and more diverse than any of our EAWs.

Therein lies the problem...

[More lookout]

It's not about one helo; the whole package required would take up the national debt of a small nation.

[alfred_the_great]

Mil SAR will be retained with 771 NAS (or whatever Sqn number they take).

JPR is bigger than a couple of helicopters.

[Pontius Navigator]

Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.

[Jimlad1]

JPR sounds great as a concept until you have to work out all the assets you need to do it really well. Its times like this that we benefit from NATO burden sharing - to do CSAR properly would mean some major structural and force changes to do it right, which could already be done by the cousins.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I believe the Merlin had an organic CSAR capability briefly when it first stood up but it takes a fair amount of training and the SH community have spent the past 10 years busy bouncing from one conflict to the other. There has barely been enough funding/serviceable aircraft to provide competent crews for Ops and give crews in the UK the minimum hours to be current let alone train for a specialist capability that isn't likely to be required!

[Tankertrashnav]

Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.

I'm trying to imagine what that consisted of, P-N

So you've nuked Leningrad, carried on east till you ran out of fuel and baled out. You're sitting on a hilltop in the Urals and you activate your sarbe. A Whirlwind appears out of nowhere and takes you off to some pre-arranged location?

No, perhaps not! So go on - it must be declassified by now - how was it going to work? Do tell!

[chopper2004]

Take France for example, they have EC725 Caracal with AAR capability and commandos that exercise all the time. Likewise with Spain, they have some CSAR capability with their AS532/AS332 and frequently exercise. The Turkish Air Force take CSAR seriously with AS532UL Cougars they took delivery several years ago.

Recently the French went to Davis-Monthan AFB and went on the Angel Thunder CSAR exercise, their Caracals took on fuel from the MC-130J Combat Spears

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4VW0PbQY7A


I seem to recall around 15 years back, the French were toying with the idea of buying some AC-130 Spectres and so did we....

What is the closest we have to an USAF PJ or Combat Controller probably a Rock Ape....or one of Herefords finest.....

Cheers,

[Roadster280]

I'm trying to imagine what that consisted of, P-N

So you've nuked Leningrad, carried on east till you ran out of fuel and baled out. You're sitting on a hilltop in the Urals ...

Sounds reasonable to that point...



Do tell!

Indeed!

[tartare]

Yes Pontius, that sounds like a helluva tale - do tell!
I thought the plan for after you lot had dropped the buckets of sunshine was to carry on east and simply find the most comfortable yurt and compliant horse-maiden...!?
May be a CSAR mission would have been launched from Honkers, or the cousins would have gone in from Japan (the bits that weren't a smoking ruin)?

[alfred_the_great]

Also, don't forget the process bollocks in all of this. There was a JPR working group, with 2 dozen members, looking at "all aspects" of JPR, from man overboard, to CSAR, to hostage rescue, to finding a lost bloke on a runashore, to recovering someone on one of the more interesting OpTours. With a remit that wide, it was never going to end well.

[MaroonMan4]

Although a true CSAR capability requires political will and much Joint resourcing to be used (hopefully) hardly ever, the capability that is crying out to be developed further post the lessons from recent operations is a PEDRO style JPR/CASEVC. I think there have been a few UK Ops that were delayed or in the case of Amphibious ships diverted to pick up PEDRO call signs as they were viewed as essential enablers.

If the situation (including downed aircrew/isolated personnel) can be resolved within 5 minutes to within the 'Golden Hour' then there may not be the requirement for a full blown CSAR capability.

In these times of military resource and capability sharing we should continue to train and develop our MERT/IRT capability (into a PEDRO style) and also rely/contribute where possible to other nations genuine CSAR capability when we cannot resolve whatever issue it is within an hour. CSAR is still very important to those operating behind enemy lines (if there is such a distinction now), but (with apologies to the AWACS groupies) we also need to acknowledge that we do not bring much to this party, but can offer other capabilities instead.

Now that isn't a massive jump in resource requirement, the majority of corporate knowledge is still available and with a little 'school house' assistance from across the pond should see the development from MERT/IRT to PEDRO capability not that big. However, it will take a Joint approach (Fisheads will need to re-find and progress their old IRT skills when the other side of the globe on one of their grey tubs with only a few Wokkas whose lift capability cannot be 'wasted' on a high alert just sat on deck and the AH guys will need to go back to their old skills of the early Sangin days where they use to fire us in/provide protective cover to get us in to some of the more hotter LS'.

[alfred_the_great]

For awareness - going from MERT-E to PEDRO will be a step down in medical capability.

[MaroonMan4]

Alfred,

Apologies if I did not make myself clear, but it was why I used the term 'develop'. We are all know too well now what works, and what doesn't. However, I personally believe that with little bit of political/high level direction and resourcing we can do both, with very little compromise (especially if it were acknowledged as an essential capability and flights/aircraft within Forces became specialised in this role).

[Fg Off Bloggs]

My Brooke-Popham Essay at Staff College in 1992 was about just that! We had already ventured into a very recent war against Iraq without a CSAR capability and many of my fellow aircrew from the Tornado GR1 world were languishing at 'Saddam's Pleasure', perhaps, for want of a UK capability to recover them before capture. My paper was fully supported by both the ASC hierarchy and the SAR office in Main Building, to whom I was invited to present my findings. The paper was retained by MOD to assist in the staffing of their own work.

Of course, there are issues of resources and priorities but, as I pointed out, there is no greater priority or expensive resource than aircrew in an offensive air war and their recovery from behind enemy lines should feature amongst the highest of priorities; not only aircrew but others of similar importance too.

Twenty-two years later and we are no further forward! With the loss of SAR, we will lose not only the assets but the expertise to carry out CSAR in the future should the requirement ever surface from within Whitehall!

Bloggs:E

[chopper2004]

also not forgetting another of our NATO brethren: Italy

They have had HH-3F Pelican, AB212 now with the near CEASAR HH-101 and HH-139 and now been certified, the AW149

Around '99, the AMI held a CSAR / PRV exercise which involved HH-3F, their spec ops, AB212 as gunship support, Tornado IDS for the 'Sandy' role and AMX....plus AW-129 Mangusta for even more firepower.

Getting back to the French, around 7 years ago they did a CSAR exercise with the ALAT (saw it copy of the Swiss Helico magazine) - involved using one of the Gazelles and crews picking up the downed pilot.

Cannot remember off hand if we have conducted en mass a dedicated CSAR/PRV exercise....unless you count when I was a Air Cadet - post Gulf War, we tried an E and E exercise out on camp in Stanta and simulated rescue including a couple of empty (Cider) bottles to simultae the black box / recoverable flight data and had to run around avoid the CO and other senior cadets to pick them up AND then get rescue by our other mates!

Cheers

[Melchett01]

I believe the Merlin had an organic CSAR capability briefly when it first stood

It was round about 2005/6 IIRC. I remember a couple of US CSAR / PJ types coming to the sqn to oversee a validation exercise which occupied a lot of the Sqn's time. The exercise went as well as could be expected and the sqn passed and as such the UK was declared to have a 'JPR capability'.

Pretty much the next day the capability was put in to abeyance and hasn't to my knowledge been seen since for all the reasons discussed already.

[tucumseh]

Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.

And again in 1986, when planning reached the stage of agreeing which 4 cabs were to be converted, where (1 in UK, 3 in Cyprus) and by whom. The RN were agog at this split plan, but did offer an unwanted Jetstream III :E to ferry Westland staff back and forward on a daily basis as they were a little unwilling to set up a forward design office in the Med. Anyway, the beancounters stepped in and the otherwise perfectly good plan came unstuck.

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF F/A-18F's now in theatre. Who will do their CASR?

Australia has never had that capability. We use civil contracted base rescue choppers [S-76] and I guess it will be ring Army to see if they have a spare Blackhawk or MRH90 slick...bit like having hospitals and no ambulances:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

Up until 1967 I believe it came under MI 9 or whatever passed for them at that time. It was then assessed that the escape lines were either compromised or had died out.

The replacement plan had a number of RV points and foraging area. Once there the plan was to hole up and wait . . .

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember CSAR ends with a helicopter. You need SED/SEAD as well.

I once watched a number of Belgian Air Force F16s perform a waggon wheel over a target dropping a single BDU 33 at each pass. They achieved such close timing that the target was obscured with smoke. As an example of defence suppression to secure an LZ and allow a helicopter in, it was exemplary.