Paras

[Heathrow Harry]

This being the 70th (!!) anniversary of Arnhem set me thinking - why do we bother to train significant amounts of troops as paras these days?

These days, when every kid over 11 in some parts of the world has an AK-47 and any self respecting war lord can rustle up a few Landcruisers covered in cannon and HMG's plus the odd ManPad, a major parachute attack would literally be shooting fish in a barrel for the defenders.

No doubt there is a place for SF insertion but just about anything else is far better achieved with a helicopter, surely?

[Skymong]

Because you can fit a lot more guys in a C-130J than a Chinook and go a lot further. Doing a drop directly onto the target may be risky but being dropped further out and then tabbing in is not much more dangerous than being dropped off by helicopter.

[Jimlad1]

Because every time you try to have a serious conversation about it in the MOD, the Army suddenly leaks more than a rusty bucket and the Telegraph, Mail etc are running stories of outrage that we may no longer want the theoretical ability to dump several hundred guys a few hundred miles from friendly forces with limited support, and stretching our C130 fleet to the limit in the process.

Parachute capability is up there with the household division in terms of 'things we probably could do differently were it not for the Army being resistant to any form of change'...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Jimlad1 - Household Division + Paras = Naughty.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/img_17663970375482-jpeg.176053/

[dragartist]

Jim lad, If there was a like button I would have clicked it. Been there several times. And I retained some of the press clippings to which you refer.


HH the square looking parachutes from the C130 in the news footage from the BBC were most probably US Army.


The ones from the Dak appeared to be our (UK) 22ft

[Boudreaux Bob]

22 Foot Diameter.....with full Kit....now that must be a noisy descent with all that Wind whistling by your Ears!:oh:

[Mr C Hinecap]

why do we bother to train significant amounts of troops as paras these days?

We don't. Not a significant amount anyway.

[barnstormer1968]

HH
There are many answers to your question.
You could equally ask why we have a tank regiment but virtually no tanks.
An Air Force that cannot operate fully on its own and has few aircraft
Why we bothered to have military SAR doing a civilian job.......but not able to do CSAR.

The list goes on :)
Back to the paras. We don't train significant numbers of men to parachute and haven't done for some years.
Paras drop out of range of HMGs on the back of a pick up, and usually out of sight of man pads at the target area. A c130 can fly faster, further and in weather that would ground a chopper.

There there is the mental advantage that arduous training brings to a soldier. The actual parachute component is often considered the easiest part of the training, while the physical part of P company is considered the hardest.
The extra boost P company and being para qualified brings to a soldier is often of help in battle or stressful conditions. Paras often consider themselves an elite and a lovely remark to emphasise this was a remark made by an officer from the green devils (German ww2 paras) about the Red Devils (Brits) when he said there were no 'mummies boys' in the Red Devils.

The list of 'wasted training money' is almost endless really. Can a Typhoon pilot control his/her aircraft better if they have had lessons in use of cutlery or mess tradition?

Right, sorry for all that waffle, but the next question has to be what is is the use of para training rock apes........ If any area is well defended against para attack it's an airfield :)

[barnstormer1968]

The helpful stacker's pic illustrates the paras attitude well in believing they are better than other soldiers due to their para role.
The army has three arduous courses, P company, special forces selection and what used to be called the patrols course (soldiers can also complete the all arms commando course, but this is classed differently)
The paras usually are only para trained but like to think they are better than soldiers who are patrols trained as well as para trained (and sometime all arms commando trained too), but have belief that being in para reg is the top dog job.
It's quite funny really, and personally I find it a tougher career path for a soldier to be patrols, para and all arms trained but then also spend time in fancy dress doing ceremonial duties. The two roles are massively different but both very time consuming in their own ways. It was also fun when working with marines and paras to point out that the marines did para training in their spare time for something to stop them getting bored. :)

[chopper2004]

Mate of mine who was an RM Commando , said that there was a t-shirt which was doing the rounds at the time (late 90s)

"A Para is God, but God Did Not Pass the Commando Course"

:ok:

[Finnpog]

A more than fair point about the different arduous courses.

I remember the front cover of a Globe & Laurel magazine circa 1988 with a picture of a Para Reg Major on attachment to 3 Cdo Bde who had undertaken and passed the AACC and was wearing a green beret with black Para Reg cap badge.

I know a few Engineers and Gunners who had done both courses in their time too - in fact for some time in the RE, so I was told, officers were almost frowned on if they had not completed one of the other. And this included some of the ATOs who I thought had earned their place alongside the RLC operators.

[barnstormer1968]

Finnpog
Relating to gunners, I found it funny that an 18 year old Tom para would call a patrols, para and AACC qualified gunner who had also undertaken gunnery training a HAT
:)

For those unfamiliar with it the patrols badge (it's not called patrols now) looks like a small trig point map symbol.

[Stendec5]

British SF = The Best Of The Best.

End Of.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Let's cut to the meat of the matter.....parachute jumping is just a means of commuting to work. it is what goes on after getting to work that matters.:p

[Trim Stab]

British SF = The Best Of The Best.

End Of.

Best of for what? If one agrees that the three most difficult courses in the army (excluding the army chef course - which no fecker has ever passed) are AACC, P-Company, and UKSF, there is no clear "best" because they all test different attributes. A pass in one course by no means guarantees a pass in any of the others.

[Melchett01]

For those unfamiliar with it the patrols badge (it's not called patrols now) looks like a small trig point map symbol.

I did wonder what the 'patrols course' was - AKA 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery. Although a RA unit, they'll take anyone who can pass selection and I dare say it probably turns out some very good soldiers back in to Bns.

You could probably also include Pathfinders in amongst the list. Reputed to be a step above 'normal' Para and often seen as a stepping stone to SF. My first encounter with PF was HERRICK in 2006 when they went into MSQ to shore things up. As I recall, they were only supposed to go in for a few days but I think they were finally extracted about 6 weeks later. They really weren't happy campers by that stage, and frankly, who could blame them!

[Stendec5]

Trim Stab.

I meant in general terms. Fitness, determination, and good old fashioned guts.

Must admit I wasn't aware of the "chop" rate on the Army Chef course. Don't think I'd make the grade either. I can't even boil an egg without it ending up like either water or concrete.

Hey ho.

[Trim Stab]

Stendec - not uncommon for blokes to pass UKSF having previously failed P-company or AACC.

Also, it was not uncommon for UKSF recruits to have to do all the P-Company tests during their continuation training (particularly if the DS were mostly ex-para) and there were certainly blokes who had romped through the selection walks who couldn't complete some of the P-Company tests, even at the high level of stamina fitness post SF selection, because they didn't have the power fitness required for P-Company.

Lots of factors come into play - different body-shapes, different mixes of power/stamina, different levels of tolerance to cold and lack of sleep, fear of heights, upper body strength - it is basically horses for courses.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Army Chefs must be a world different than the US Army Cook School.....where they take months to teach the Candidates how to ruin a good piece of Meat. In our Army, passing the course means they know nothing at all about cooking! If they can boil water....they fail!

[Stendec5]

Trim Stab.

I read a good book some years ago about a guy doing selection for 21 SAS (Southern TA). It follows this guy right through from first training evening to the "badging" ceremony.

It's called "The Quite Soldier" by Adam Ballinger. Well worth a read.

My original point was that whatever the actual course (P-Coy, SAS, RMs, Womens Auxiliary Balloon Corps...take yer pick) To have got through such hell and wear the badge (whichever) is a real achievement.

The "special" descriptive is for a reason.

[NutLoose]

British Army Chefs were qualified Fitters and Turners, they could fit perfectly good food into pans and turn it into sh*t

[Genstabler]

Joke away you crabs. Cooks are an easy target for cheap shots. I experienced at first hand the products of Army chefs for 34 years, in barracks, on exercise and on operations. I can confidently state that they are bloody good, highly skilled and amazingly versatile, able to produce tasty and nourishing meals under appalling conditions using compo and whatever local fresh produce they can be supplied with.
Can't comment on crab cooks though.

[gzornenplatz]

I can comment on crab cooks. Falklands 1983 "Fly Navy, Sail Army, Eat Crab" The Navy ran the choppers, the Army ran the the boats in the harbour and the RAF did the cooking and they were brilliant.


The only downside - no chips for four months. Sad.

[Heathrow Harry]

SF are necessary and useful but the British Army has a very long history of spinning off "special" units which are supposed to be some sort of silver bullet and not concentrating on the PBI - who actually have to do the bulk of the fighting

I suspect its because we've never had a very large army and if we expand it w quickly slim it down again - so there is a constant search for something, anything that enables them to claim they can do more with less

[airborne_artist]

HH - way off topic now, but I disagree. All the private armies that were formed in WW2 (Popski's, Stirling's, the Chindits) were disbanded very soon afterwards. The Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines survived but were not then or now considered to be SF.

21 SAS was formed in 1947 as a TA regiment only and it was not until 1952 that 22 stood up, and that was due to the development of jungle warfare in Malaya and the need for a regular battalion.

If you look at recent conflicts it's clear that traditional military combat with defined front-lines and territory being lost/won is on the wane. Both SF and PBI need to adapt to survive in the new environment.

[Madbob]

Gzornenplatz

My FI memories are the same though the best food was on board the RFA's if you were ever lucky enough to be invited on board.:ok:

The RN seemed to get the first pick of any fresh rations sent down, the army next and the RAF got the left-overs - still the RAF cooks were brilliant and the results were great for maintaining both the waist-line and morale.

Best of all though was 1312 Flight who through a cunning plan with the met officers in Ascension and who were based on Green Mountain, managed to import (for a price) fresh tropical fruit; pineapples, grapefruit and melons were serious "currency" to barter favours.:ok::ok:

One "trade" I did was to get the loan of an army motorcycle (with spare jerry can;)) and so was able to set off (with others in company for mutual support in case of an accident) across the Camp and so get to places I'd never otherwise have got to see up close, such as Two Sisters, Wireless Ridge and Tumbledown and round to the Murrel river.

MB

[Party Animal]

Regarding the earlier quote that we no longer train significant numbers of paras anymore, that may be true but how many are already qualified and in receipt of para pay that need to maintain currency?

I understand the ratio is in the order of 10:1 for those needing to maintain currency versus the actual number of trained paras required.

As for 'no mummies boys' in the Red Devils, sadly the same can't be said for Air Command! ;)

[Wander00]

My first 10 weeks at MPA I lived with the contractors - food was plentiful, with vegetables, salads and fresh fruit in abundance. When the military took over the first thing to go were the duvets |(not scaled, but we did get them back) then fresh fruit and fresh salad. When queried we were told that we only needed one piece of fruit a month to stay "regular"!