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View Full Version : Go West, young man - or should it be North, South or East?


Centaurus
21st Sep 2014, 03:50
This Pprune member was fortunate enough to get into the RAAF at 19 for flying training and never looked back. For that reason I don't envy today's new CPL who, unable cannot find a job in his immediate vicinity, is forced to up-sticks and go looking elsewhere - commonly heading the well worn track for many new pilots and that is "Up North". There are numerous success stories of course of pilots who found jobs in NT and over the next few years were successful in getting into an airline. For example many of my former students are now flying domestic or international 737's, 777's and other jet transports after 3-5 years up North.

Friend of mine is just completing his multi-engine instrument rating and with 250 hours in his log book is soon going (you guessed it) up North to seek his first paid flying job. He has already previously visited Broome to assess the job situation and found several new CPL pilots waiting in a queue while keeping the wolf from the door by meanwhile packing shelves at the local supermarket. How long should they wait before moving to try their luck elsewhere? How long is a piece of string?

It occurred to me that Pprune readers include many pilot employers. Would it be safe to say most employers don't always live "Up North." And I wonder if statistically there are more chances of a walking into a flying job in the south and east of Australia (coastal or in land) than `up north`?

Getting your first flying job is often a combination of who you know, networking, and goodluck. One new pilot embarked on the long car journey ` up north` with a new CPL and CIR in his pocket and travelled to Darwin via Mount Isa and all airports in between. No luck so he came back via Tennant Creek and Alice Springs arriving back at home jobless several months later. It was back to driving a fork lift truck. Six months passed and suddenly came a call from Alice Springs to fly a Cessna 206 in the NT. His CV dropped in six months earlier had finally paid off. Be there in the next 48 hours or miss out said the phone call. . He was there for several months of full on flying during the tourist season. Then the job disappeared and it was back to square one.

There were BN2 Islanders in PNG but no replies to CV's and it cost a lot of money to fly there hoping to land a job. But having saved up enough money driving a fork lifter he decided to give PNG a go and first obtained an Islander endorsement. To his delight the chief pilot of the Islander company offered him a job after the endorsement. It was the break most CPL's would dream about. Years down the track he obtained an airline command. In order to help current and future CPL graduates it would be appreciated if those reading this thread could offer their views on the chances of young pilots finding flying work in the Eastern states compared with the accepted ritual of going `Up North` to find their first job.:ok:

hillbillybob
21st Sep 2014, 14:39
He has already previously visited Broome to assess the job situation and found several new CPL pilots waiting in a queue while keeping the wolf from the door by meanwhile packing shelves at the local supermarket. How long should they wait before moving to try their luck elsewhere? How long is a piece of string?

As a CPL/IR pilot packing shelves in Broome this is a question I ask myself quite a bit. I have made the decision on how long I will stay here but it wasn't solely based on what is/will/might happen in the industry up here. It seems once you get established in a decent house in a tourist town that all your mates want to come visit you.

Metro man
21st Sep 2014, 16:33
It all comes down to being in the right place at the right time. Do what you can to put yourself in that position.:ok:

VH-Cheer Up
21st Sep 2014, 16:50
(the company disconnected the tacho most of the time)errm... Pardon?

What for? How did that affect his log book entries?

Cravenmorehead
21st Sep 2014, 21:16
In answer to your question I was in the same position 30 years ago. So yes the age old tradition of travelling north looking for work is nothing new. I also got a call to go flying Scenics around the rock (thanks Chris and Luke at ARAS). That was after travelling around the nation seeing operators. It was about a year later though and I had completed Senior Commercial subjects and an instructor rating in that time. I had kept in touch as they seemed the most likely to give me a crack.
There is no rhyme or reason to it all mostly just luck. As a previous poster put it make your own luck. Make friends, be respectful and help others where you can.
I feel a holiday up north for a bit is a good thing for an inspiring pilot, sort of grounds you. Go home east or wherever you live if nothing comes up, let's face it, it can be pretty lonely. Keep educating yourself, it does not have to be aviation related, fork lift or truck driver, whatever. Keep working keep positive and trying. It will happen eventually.
Centaurus looks as though the fellas you helped got lucky to have you as a mentor. If you can find a Mentor it helps too.

training wheels
22nd Sep 2014, 02:01
The more adventurous would head north in search of their first job, but don't stop in Darwin; keep heading north in to south east asia where there is still some expansion going on with local airlines. Just in the last month, I came across three young French pilots with FAA licenses in 'Indochina' who scored their first regional airline job with only around 300 hours TT. Admittedly, a lot of luck was involved, and also being at the right place at the right time, and being persistent but patient with the airline management got them a foot in the door.

So next time you're on holidays to places like Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia and Myanmar, bring your CV and license along and some smart casual clothes, and drop in to the regional airline offices. You'll never know your luck.

Buttscratcher
22nd Sep 2014, 02:25
Dunno about that, matey, when I was looking for my first Aviation job, I didn't have enough money left over to feed myself and put petrol in the car.......and you are suggesting that these kids are holidaying in South East Asia. Seriously?

Virtually There
22nd Sep 2014, 03:15
Cheaper to fly to SEA than drive all over Australia in my experience. Have you seen the cost of living in Broome/Darwin/etc? With a cheap flight to Bangkok, you can get around on next to nothing. Indo (Susi Air) is even cheaper.

Bankrupt84
22nd Sep 2014, 03:17
It should be noted that I have some French friends who when unable to find work had A320 endorsement fully subsidised by the Government.

Also whilst looking for work overseas many of them still receive benefits for unemployment to help fund the trip.

It's a very tough industry at the moment, he with the greatest amount of money wins.

Tell your student if he is still young to go to university and get into Engineering.

Centaurus
22nd Sep 2014, 07:50
errm... Pardon?

What for? How did that affect his log book entries?

Standard practice with some charter operators in those days. I don't know about now but in remote parts of Australia I suspect nothing has changed. The pilot logs his flight time as usual (watch time?) but the maintenance is stretched to reduce costs such that the aircraft may have actually flown say 80 hours but with the techo disconnected some of the time the maintenance release shows only half that time. A diligent audit by CASA would see the difference but the operator is prepared to take the risk since audits were few and far between. Used car dealers do similar things like winding back the speedo mileage.

weighman
22nd Sep 2014, 14:52
So Centaurus, how was the RPM set without a tacho?

Centaurus
22nd Sep 2014, 15:09
So Centaurus, how was the RPM set without a tacho?

I have no idea since I was never involved in that practice. The tacho RPM was normal but I believe it was possible to fiddle the hours meter which is integral with the instrument. Maybe an LAME can explain how it is done:E

weighman
22nd Sep 2014, 15:15
I am an LAME (50 yrs exp) and much of it remote areas maintaining piston aircraft. What you suggest can't be done. You are suggesting that an operator would have an LAME open the instrument and wind it back. Would have to be done in instrument shop.

Total rubbish and libellous!!!

Pastor of Muppets
22nd Sep 2014, 20:39
I call bullsh$t on the tacho disconnect and total bullsh$t on it being "standard practice"

iPahlot
22nd Sep 2014, 21:44
Tell your student if he is still young to go to university and get into Engineering.

Yeah, with unemployment in Melbourne for Engineers sitting around 18% they'd be slightly better off than a pilot...

My first two jobs were on the east coast, albeit further north than Sydney (not instructing or meat bombing) and my next two were "up north".

As mentioned here and in countless threads, aviation is a matter of networking, being persistent and timing. There is no quick fix, however much you hope and pray. You get lucky quite quickly or you WILL get lucky if you practice patients and don't act like the world owes you something.

One guarantee though, you will not find a job sitting on your derriere and sending out resumes from a capital city.

If you don't have the money to go north now, suck it up, get a job and save some money. Yes it might mean saying no to your mates when they want to hit town and it may mean doing a job you don't particularly like, but it'll get you somewhere where the jobs are.

Also, if you have gone from high school to flying school and never held a job (even if it's making coffee, stacking shelves or delivering pizza) you will find it even more difficult to get a job flying as very few operators want to teach you how to fly their planes AND the realities of working a full time job.

Just my two cents.

weighman
22nd Sep 2014, 22:36
The post was describing events at Ayers Rock 25 years ago. The statement in brackets at the end of paragraph 4 (the company disconnected the tacho most of the time) is not a suggestion, more a statement of fact. I have had personal involvement at that location, so Jack it is verging on libel.

bonzaii
23rd Sep 2014, 00:12
Well it might change in the summer, but i just did entire QLD coast, 420TT MECIR, G3 instructor. no one was even interested, the given reasons where, no need for pilots, downsizing, loss of contracts, not enough hours(most common). Broom and perth are the same, except its mainly excess pilots. Not a good time to look for work in aus. Especially east coast, but jobs do happen, it cant hurt to try, just be aware, that your probably not even the first guy that day to knock on the door,

weighman
23rd Sep 2014, 00:20
Matbe a REPCON from you would be appropriate?

pilotchute
23rd Sep 2014, 00:24
The "another kiwi dropping a CV syndrome".

On speaking to some people recently it has come to be noticed that so many operators are so tired of seeing Kiwis hanging around to see the CP that the CV is chucked away as soon as they leave.

How many Aussies do you see flying in NZ we pondered? In the Links a few but in NZ GA you can count them on one hand. Also, when jobs are advertised in NZ it's perfectly clear its for Kiwis only.

Blueskymine
23rd Sep 2014, 00:27
In my experience the tacho and airswitch on charter aeroplanes work just fine. You just don't use them as everything is done by clock times.

The only time this seems dodgy is for the newly minted CPL engrained in flying school culture in their first job.

Once you move over to something a little bigger, you release they don't even have a tacho or an airswitch. Commercial aviation works on chock and clock times :)

Spotlight
23rd Sep 2014, 01:04
As on who was there 25 years ago (Ayres Rock), and another 6000 hours in Northern GA, the statement as put, that it was normal practice by operators to under record maintenance hours is unmitigated rubbish.

A kind view might be that the standard practice of using clock time (or a nominal .1 extra above tachometer time) for the log book has confused some people.

Under recording of maintenance hours, when it did happen was confined to fly by nighters from down south with cross hired aircraft,so as to rob the owner!
This almost always came unstuck when the aircraft arrived at a maintenance hangar for a 100 hourly falling to bits.

Infamously, a Robertson helicopter operator did try this on with his own fleet. Once suspected, CASA was spoiled for evidence with the simple expedient of cross referencing fuel bills, invoices for work and pilot log books. The ramifications were severe.

Spotlight
23rd Sep 2014, 02:36
Jack
An opinion formed by stated experience! Your comprehension extends that far I'm sure.

deadcut
23rd Sep 2014, 02:58
How many Aussies do you see flying in NZ we pondered? In the Links a few but in NZ GA you can count them on one hand. Also, when jobs are advertised in NZ it's perfectly clear its for Kiwis only.

And how big is the GA industry in NZ? Tiny.

Plenty of Aussies in the links. Are you a bit upset that some Kiwi got a job before you? Aw :sad:

aileron_69
23rd Sep 2014, 05:03
From a personal perspective, I feel that it is a bit late to start thinking about getting a flying job after you have finished a commercial pilots licence. Well before you have even started your CPL subjects, I would have thought it prudent to get a job working somewhere in the aviation industry. Things such as Driving an ag plane loader, being a refueller, flight clerk, baggage handler, passenger loader, winchman, hangar bitch, etc etc are all things that not only give you a bit of an insight into the industry, but also give you contacts within that industry. When you come out of your CPL training, you hopefully will then have a few good aviation related references, and maybe even networked a few contacts to get yourself known. Being in the right place at the right time is definitely going to help, but you can tip the odds in your favour a bit so that it is you in the right place, not someone else. By waiting until after you have done your CPL, you are just wasting time and you are going to have to waste a lot of money keeping current so that when that job offer does come in, you can pass a check ride.

aileron_69
23rd Sep 2014, 05:05
And if a Kiwi is getting a job ahead of you, then they must be doing something you aren't. Find out what that is, and do that. I doubt they are wanting to get paid less. Im a Kiwi, and I follow the $$.

neville_nobody
23rd Sep 2014, 06:03
In my experience the tacho and airswitch on charter aeroplanes work just fine. You just don't use them as everything is done by clock times.

Yeah and you can reverse audit it all anyway. If people start cheating it isn't hard to get caught. Just comparing the MR against the logbook against the flight record against the fuel burn and you can pretty quickly see what's going on.

Things such as Driving an ag plane loader, being a refueller, flight clerk, baggage handler, passenger loader, winchman, hangar bitch, etc etc are all things that not only give you a bit of an insight into the industry, but also give you contacts within that industry.

Not sure about these days but I found it very difficult to get into these jobs when I was starting. Being a wannabe pilot is a big negative here and people rubbed me out just on that. It's even worse when you move up north and heaps of wannabe pilots are going for the same type of job. Lack of commitment to their job is one issue that they perceive. In that once you get a flying job you're outa there. Alot easier working in a pub/supermarket/restaurant and being a regular dude than trying to work in the industry, unless you are already qualified or transferring from a city position, that is.

deadcut
23rd Sep 2014, 06:37
Being a wannabe pilot is a big negative here and people rubbed me out just on that

So why couldn't you omit that from your resume? Too easy. That's what I have done.

pilotchute
23rd Sep 2014, 06:48
What they are doing that I'm not?

Hanging around at the flying school clocking up every rating they can before they leave (all on the taxpayer) and presto they have 400 hours instead of 200. Employer likes more hours in the book (cheaper premium) and guess who gets hired? He probably offered to fly for free anyway.

I have spent a lot time around Darwin, Cairns and Kununura and I can tell you there seem to be a lot more Kiwis willing to work for nothing than locals.

deadcut
23rd Sep 2014, 06:52
(all on the taxpayer)

It's a loan... i.e you have to pay it back.

pilotchute
23rd Sep 2014, 11:05
So if everyone is paying it back why is the NZ Govt going to stop you leaving the country if you haven't been paying?

NZ has over 750 million dollars in unpaid student loans! Guess where most of the non payers live? You guessed it. Aussie land.

Judd
23rd Sep 2014, 13:50
Never mind tacho problems. Worse than that was new CPL lands first job up north and soon after reports to his boss that he is stuck on a remote station with failed ASI due blocked pitot tube and suspects wasp nests deep down. Boss says no problem - just fly attitude for the next few days until the 100 hourly comes up. :ugh:


Total rubbish and libellous!!! Not all chief pilots are Angels

seneca208
23rd Sep 2014, 14:44
Never mind tacho problems. Worse than that was new CPL lands first job up north and soon after reports to his boss that he is stuck on a remote station with failed ASI due blocked pitot tube and suspects wasp nests deep down.

Standard interview question at most places when I was looking for my first job. Tough one to answer- fly it home or stay legal..

Aussie Bob
23rd Sep 2014, 20:48
He must have flown it to know it wasn't working in the first place ...

seneca208
23rd Sep 2014, 22:15
If that's a hard question to answer then you shouldn't be allowed to operate a guide dog, let alone an aircraft.... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I would've liked to think so too. Unfortunately, I can assure you that at certain NT operators, the correct answer is fly the aircraft back to the maintenance base.

aileron_69
23rd Sep 2014, 23:13
Being a wannabe pilot is a big negative here and people rubbed me out just on that

This is what I am saying, you get these jobs before the licence. You might want to be a pilot, but you don't have a licence so you aren't going anywhere too soon. Once you have the licence, if the boss knows it, you will be perceived as someone that will bugger off at the first opportunity. Depending on the job, you might learn a lot about operational flying that will help you with your training and also when that first job does come along.