Guy Gibson Remembered

[Bollotom]

To my everlasting shame I can't believe I missed the anniversary of Guy Gibson's loss over the Netherlands on 19th September 1944. Not the last of the greats but a legend in our lifetimes. :cool:

[Dash8driver1312]

That begs the question of when you were born.

And to be honest even his own autobiography has tragic elements of hypocrisy.

He decries the targeting of population centres or actions that lead directly to suffering of the civilian population and then seems totally fine with the massive devastation caused by Operation Chastise.

He was a highly skilled pilot, and a very capable leader, but oft you find your heroes are very human.

[Bollotom]

1944 Dash, so perhaps I was brought up with a 'Boys Own' look on life and childhood heroes. Amiens prison ranks alongside 'Chastise', as does Ploesti, Tirpitz and the Cockleshells. Apart from hypocrisies and shortcomings I thank whoever is up there for putting those heroes on this Earth in times of need. But thank you for your input. :cool:

[Heathrow Harry]

heroes are not"put on earth"

they are ordinary people who , in times of great danger, put their fears behind them and do extraordinary things

[ShotOne]

Very well put, HH. Guy Gibson didn't join the RAF to be a hero. He joined, by his own account, to get the qualifications to become a well-paid civilian test pilot. The rest, as they say, is history!

[Wander00]

I watched the 2 Lancasters from a roadside verge on the outskirts of Sawston (could not get in to Duxford, so not a "cheapskate"!) in the company of a an elderly lady who arrived in another car who had been a WAAF at Scampton at the time of the Dams raid, and clearly remembered Gibson being told of the death of his dog

[Stendec5]

It's hard to believe. That this courageous, capable and inspiring young man who died in the line of duty should be subjected to such petty criticism is pathetic beyond words. (Only in Britain).
As always in such instances I wonder what we would discover if we turned the spotlight upon the lives of the distractors.....Victoria Cross material?
I doubt it.

RIP Guy Gibson, Jim Warwick, and all the Bomber Command heroes that died before there time.

Honour the brave.

[Herod]

Having seen the Mohne dam, and seen the speed of a Lancaster, I'm surprised any of them made it. OK, the first one was a surprise, perhaps the second one. But from then on, flying the same track, constant speed, constant height. I know the German defenders weren't front-line troops, and the Lancaster gunners were laying down a barrage, but even so. The phrase "wooden ships and iron men" springs to mind again.

[Basil]

Yes, an aircraft looks solid but to any projectile it's just a soap bubble.

[Brian W May]

. . . and HOW do we remember him?

'We' rename his dog 'Trigger' so we don't offend people we've never met, who probably understand the jet black dog was actually called 'Nigger'. Not offensive - a bit like the gollies we used to have on Robertson's jams.

Guy may have wondered if it was all worth the effort . . .

It's also ironic he was probably shot down by one of our own.

[rolling20]

Not proven that he was shot down by one of our own. Most plausible story I have heard is that the Mossie he flew was Canadian built and had different fuel cocks for some reason. Gibson refused to be briefed on the aircraft. That the aircraft suffered fuel starvation seems most plausible. Eye witnesses reported a light in the cockpit, so hardly goes with the story that it was 'blown out of the sky'.

RIP

[Brian W May]

Rolling20

Either was likely/plausible but seems to support the assertion it was not 'enemy' action.

RIP

[MAINJAFAD]

Brian, I would agree with R20. The last person on the ground to speak with either Gibson or Jim Warwick was a SNCO from 627 Sqn at Woodhall Spa (the unit the aircraft came from) who was giving Jim a brief on the Navigator's duties on that mark of Mosquito, one of which was fuel management controlled by cocks behind Gibson's seat (Gibson had flown the Mosquito, but had not done an OCU course on it and Warwick had never flown in the aircraft at all). The SNCO hadn't completed the brief before Gibson turned up and said 'we are going now'. As R20 has stated a Dutch eyewitness saw the aircraft crash and reported that the engines had stopped and there was a light in the cockpit while it was still in flight.

[Typhoon93]

All members of Bomber Command between 1939-1945 were heroes in my view.

[Herod]

Typhoon93; totally agree. Very, very brave men.

[Brian W May]

Rolling20/MAINJAFAD

Thanks guys.

Sadly sounds like a victim of Push-on-itis, but one wonders if he was just acutely aware of deteriorating weather over the target, which had been switched late on due to weather. I also didn't realise he was so inexperienced on the Mossie, as was his Nav.

Reading around this last flight, it sounds like an RGF, switching aircraft late on, flying with the Station Nav who had a letter on him etc etc.

A bit like Bader, he seems to have attracted a lot of dislike from his peers as well as some form of adulation. Complex character.

Worth a read on Wiki.

[clunckdriver]

Whilst at RCAF Staion Moose Jaw in the early/mid fifties we had a batch of the "New Luftwaffe" in training, I remember a conversation with one of the ex WW2 "Re- Treads", who by the way had been shot down four times, that there was a team which went over Gibsons aircraft with a fine tooth comb, due his rank and status. As a result of this he stated that both engines had not been runing on impact due to fuel starvation, but the aircraft still had fuel in some of the tanks on impact. Now, I have no way of confirming this and it was many years ago, all I remember was that the guy was an acting Major and had started as an NCO pilot some time in WW2, maybe someone has more definative information on this?

[rolling20]

Clunckdriver, interesting story sir. To be honest there wasn't much left of the aircraft or its poor occupants. Brian, Gibson reportedly refused to follow the advised route home as well. I guess it was a case of he knew best. As Mick Martin stated, `there wasn't one target left, worth risking his young life for`.

[clunckdriver]

Rolling 20, there were some RAF Acting Pilot Officers on course at the time, maybe they might have taken more interest in this rather than us "colonials", but as I said, I have no way of confirming the Majors story, it was a long time ago and remember the moto of Flight Cadets and aircrew trainees in general, "If you havnt heard a rumor by 1000hrs, then start one" I wonder if there are any German records on this, after all they kept records on bloody near everything and Generall Kamalhuber {spellig} was very insistant on acurate reporting of confirmed kills and details of every night action.

[polecat2]

Eight aircraft were claimed by the German night fighter force on the night Gibson was killed, all Lancasters or Halifaxes. The only one to come down in Holland was Lancaster PB299 of 467 Sqn. No combats with Mosquitos were reported.


Source - The Nachtjagd War Diaries Vol 2.


Of course , claims by flak gunners are not recorded here.

[ShotOne]

Is he less of a hero if the crash was an accident rather than by enemy action? It's always struck me as a great pity that wartime lives lost due to training/accident/friendly fire seem to be valued less highly.

[Typhoon93]

That's not at all the case from my end, SO.

Most military personnel are heroes. I say 'most' because I don't want to include murdering scum like Alexander Blackman, who consciously break the rules and then try to cover their tracks while at the same time bringing the armed forces in to disrepute. Although that's a different topic.

[MAINJAFAD]

Right. I've found the most detailed account of the incident that I know of. Its in Stephen Flower book 'Barnes Walllis' Bombs', which I think was re-published as 'One hell of a bomb' (which is also the name of a chapter in the book). The story of Gibson's last flight is at the end chapter of the book. He was the 54 Base (Coningsby / Woodhall Spa / Methringham) Ops Officer at the time. His first official flight in a Mossie was on 31st Aug 44 and he had a total of 11 hours on the type. Jim Warwick was an experienced Nav with a DFC having completed 27 missions with 49 Sqn on Lancasters and after a short spell at 1661 HCU, was posted to 54 Base HQ at Coningsby. Warwick had never flown in a Mossie. The Master Bomber role for the mission included being the primary marker with Red TI's. Both the primary aircraft that Gibson was suppose to fly (KB213) and the spare (serial unknown) which were loaded with Red TI's were not used (in the case of the spare, Gibson had refused to take it as he considered that the aircraft was not up to scratch) and Gibson finally took the aircraft allocated to Sqn Ldr Mallinder (KB267) after a swap. KB267 was loaded with Green TI's which were removed, but there was no time to load Reds which Gibson was to have used to mark the AP, so he went without them. It was the 627 Sqn Senior Technical Officer (W/O A Webb), who was giving Warwick the cockpit brief from within the aircraft when Gibson arrived, curtly ordered the STO out the aircraft and Webb was the last man to see either of them face to face as he closed the hatch. Gibson and another Red primary marker got to the target just as the flare illumination force opened the attack, with Gibson able to see the AP, but not mark it and the vice-versa for the other Mossie. Gibson switched on his nav lights over the target to get the other Mossie to formate with him and both aircraft dived onto the AP which was successfully marked. Gibson then carried out the Master Bomber role and then headed for home. En route back to the UK, the crew of a 61 Sqn Lancaster heard Gibson come up on VHF to say that he had lost an engine and some time shortly after that he crashed. Most of this story came from W/O Webb, who according to Flower, who was a bit pee'd off with a rumour that Gibson's aircraft had been sabotaged by the ground crew of 627 Sqn due to a general dislike of Gibson across the Sqn (They knew him as 'the boy emperor'). The change of aircraft at short notice shoots that rumour down. The fact that a scratch crew (Gibson and Warwick had never flown together), with minimal to no experience on an aircraft that had to be flown (the Mossie was a good aircraft but did have some vices) and on a quite difficult mission with all of the issues that happened before take off was a recipe for the disaster that eventuality happened.

[reynoldsno1]

Guy Gibson's loss over the Netherlands on 19th September 1944.
Interestingly, Maori TV in NZ showed the Dambusters at the weekend - presumably they had done some research. I also hasten to add that it was shown with the original soundtrack intact.:)

[bosnich71]

There was also another, dare I say it, more important operation going on in Holland at the time. 17th. to 26th. September.

[ShotOne]

It only serves to prove that our heroes (and I emphatically place Gibson in that category) are rarely straightforward. I recall an interview with his WOp and it was clear that he disliked had Gibson intensely.

It's also unfair to charge him with hypocrisy over the civilian deaths which he knew were the result of the bombing campaign. Indeed if anyone is guilty of hypocrisy it's those in the present day who seek to portray the brutal carnage of the bomber offensive as some sort of chivalrous encounter

[Heathrow Harry]

it would be nice if all heroes were perfect - but they are as human as the rest of us

[rolling20]

Gibson drew a lot of like and dislike in equal measures. I am not here to judge. I guess a lot of it was to do with his upbringing and the class system that existed at that time. He had done his bit and really Harris should never have given in to him. (as Harris later admitted)