Hercules pilots: Can this be done?

[Downwind Lander]

The recent Mount Sinjar episode with refugees in Iraq made me think.

Suppose that the task is to use a Hercules to drop VERY accurately a load but without flying low.

In the cargo hold, the load is on a rail which vertically constrains it and will allow it to roll freely when released.

Could a pilot, with the load locked in position and the cargo door OPEN, commence a stall turn overhead the target zone, pull back and ascend. When in the vertical plane, over the target zone, a lever would be pulled and the load would be released, sliding vertically down on its rails, out of the aircraft. When clear of the aircraft, parachutes would open and the load would descend as normal.

The load would have NO FORWARD COMPONENT OF VELOCITY, excepting any wind issue. It should fall with great accuracy.

The $64,000 question is: Can a Herc do a stall turn without losing its wings? Probably "Yes". See this remarkable video:

C130 Super Hercules Paris Airshow 2011 - Cockpit View (http://www.flixxy.com/c130-super-hercules-paris-airshow-2011-cockpit-view.htm)
See timings at 1.25 and 4.47

Would these manoeuvres be possible with a half load or even a full load?

In the video, please note that he pushes the column forward, creating negative G, rather than doing a standard stall turn. I would have thought that this would stress the airframe more, rather than less. But it might be a better alternative in a military situation since height is conserved.

Whatever anyone may say about this idea, it is not as ghastly as the Khe Sanh approach, which I believe to be standard practice ( - or would still be if the Viet Cong were still being difficult).

I have never been either in or near a Fat Albert and ask if this idea is total cobblers or could it become a useful manoeuvre, with or without adaptation. There may be a better way of achieving the same end.

(p.s. i got this idea watching Stuka dive bombers in a WW2 documentary. I reckon they missed a trick).

[salad-dodger]

I have never been either in or near a Fat Albert and ask if this idea is total cobblers or could it become a useful manoeuvre, with or without adaptation. There may be a better way of achieving the same end.


or anywhere near any aircraft by the sound of it...............thankfully!

S-D

[bobward]

He could be a scriptwriter for Sky TV's Strike Back you know......:8

[ORAC]

You could deliver at the end of a cable whilst circling -as mail/delivery pilots used to do.

Bucket Drop Delivery (http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/facts/helicopter.html)

Cable-Supported Sliding Payload Deployment from a Circling Fixed-Wing Aircraft (http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2006-6132)

Hmm. We had a thread about this back in 2006 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/227628-seeking-old-aviation-story.html#post2603967)...

[ExAscoteer]

Hercules pilots: Can this be done?

No, it can't.

[Evalu8ter]

Or you could just use this...

Joint Precision Airdrop System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Precision_Airdrop_System)

Or use a Chinook.......

[PTC REMF]

You could try this, seems a bit easier than chucking the airframe about. Precision Aerial Delivery Systems - GPS Guided Cargo Systems (http://defense-update.com/features/du-1-07/aerialdelivery3-gps.htm)

[Buccdriver]

Never mind about the stall turn, what about the WIND?

[Willard Whyte]

No, it can't.

It could.

Once per 'frame.

[smujsmith]

If such a drop was attempted, I could imagine that the parachute borne supplies would probably arrive at the crash site slightly after the event. I'm sure the OP means well, go easy chaps:ugh:

Smudge

[dragartist]

Evalu8, PTC,
Can we afford such things in the UK for HUMAID? Looks like the preserve of the guys on the other side of the pond. I thought we were broke. I guess you could drop one or two from your Chinook if you could get high enough at that weight.


That big parachute in the link would make lots of tents or clothes.

[StopStart]

Whatever anyone may say about this idea, it is not as ghastly as the Khe Sanh approach

The "Khe Sanh" approach is not ghastly. Your idea, however, is slightly beyond ghastly

I have never been either in or near a Fat Albert

You don't say

and ask if this idea is total cobblers

Er, yes. Utterly.

or could it become a useful manoeuvre

No. Never.

There may be a better way of achieving the same end.

Yes. It's called airdrop. It works pretty well.

[OvertHawk]

What everyone is trying to say is "thanks for asking, but no it can't". There are quite a few different way of air-dropping loads with a pretty good level of accuracy but what you're suggesting is not one of them.

Oh

[fergineer]

Did make I larf though

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think they mean that anyone with the required skill to do it wouldn't be flying a Hercules in the first place.

[Buster Hyman]

Pffft, next they'll be asking if a Herc can land & take off from a Carrier! :rolleyes:

Oh, wait....

[Old Fella]

LSM, what are you implying? Just because the old C130 is no space craft does not mean that those who fly it are less skilled than those in the sharp pointy things. My old outfit has been operating the C130 since 1958 and have not lost a single aircraft, despite operating in some pretty hostile environments.

[bridgetoofar]

I'm not sure the occupants of the cargo compartment would be too keen! :eek:

You compared airdrop to a dive bomb attack. You mentioned that all you would have to worry about is the wind..... Correct.

The wind is key, it is the most significant factor of calculating the release point. The horizontal component of velocity you are worried about is actually one of the most predictable aspects of airdrop and easy to compensate for.

To reduce the largest variable (canopy drift) we have to reduce the time the load is under canopy or steer the canopy. Steerable canopy = expensive. High speed canopies = high speed impact (high rate of descent) So if you ask a pilot what they want to do to get a load on a small DZ they will tell you "fly lower".

So when you realise how simple airdrop theory is you'll see it's bonkers doing aerobatics in a 60T aircraft to remove the most predicable variable of the calculated release point. (Forward travel distance)

[Basil]

The Argosy could have done it . . .

You just wouldn't have been able to use the aircraft, or the crew, again :E

[dragartist]

Welcome to PPRuNe Bridgetoofar,
I wonder how many pilots would really wish to fly lower and risk getting shot down.

I understood from reading some of the links above to Precision that we now had the tools to understand the wind field to feed the CARP such that we could drop higher and achieve similar accuracy to that from lower heights.


If you are allowed to say what is the current CEP you are achieving with standard airdrop.


Not sure we need any of this expensive precision stuff for HUMAID anyway

[ancientaviator62]

Bridgetoofar,
ah yes the SAFT (Still Air Forward Throw) tables.

[BOAC]

Maybe time for an Op role for the Falcons? Equip cargo with steerable chute and a team member with guy ropes and -- job done. He can sign autographs when he gets down too.:O

(Hopefully no Burger vans around..........................)

[AOJM]

None of those were stall turns. As far I knew, the Herc isn't an aerobatic aircraft.

I had my cheeks clenched tight with the apprehension of the video actually showing the Hercules performing a stall turn!

[ExAscoteer]

I think they mean that anyone with the required skill to do it wouldn't be flying a Hercules in the first place.

You sir are a pillock of the first order.

[TyroPicard]

Good grief Charlie Brown..

DL ... The load will be going up at the same speed as the Herc... why would releasing a lock make it slide vertically downwards?

[Herod]

DL ... The load will be going up at the same speed as the Herc... why would releasing a lock make it slide vertically downwards?

Gravity dear boy; gravity. The Herc is still powered (I hope), while the load, once released, isn't.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You sir are a pillock of the first order.

There's always one.

[bakseetblatherer]

Hook line sinker and most of the rod too!

[ExAscoteer]

There's always one.

Apparently so.

Well done you.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Why, thank you!

[Buster Hyman]

I think driving the payload in by truck is looking easier...

[nimbev]

The Argosy could have done it . . .Only if you didn't want to drop too much.... just a couple of Nav Bag's worth say...:O:O

[Hatchet 130]

I was trying to work out what wind-up wah anagram Downwind Lander was, I think I'll just take a large toke on the same thing he's smoking and relax.:ok:

[Downwind Lander]

Herod says in #26:
"Gravity dear boy; gravity. The Herc is still powered (I hope), while the load, once released, isn't".

Very much so. And at a brisk speed. Otherwise one enters the world of the Hammerhead, and few people volunteer to enter this world more than once.

[Downwind Lander]

Msbbarratt says: "Fit a bunch of rocket boosters to a Herc to give it a brief burst of enhanced climb performance"

Been there - done that - called Operation Credible Sport. This is a joy of Lockheed. They think big. Kudos. But sometimes, as above, it ends in tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKCl3lfAx1Q

I am not sure they will re-enter that field any time soon, although it seems to me that they were not that far from success. Certainly, it was a less absurd idea than NASA's for landing the Opportunity rover on Mars, and that was a total success.

[Downwind Lander]

AOJM says in #23 :
"As far I knew, the Herc isn't an aerobatic aircraft".

Isn't it? I wouldn't suggest an attempt at a Red Arrows type starburst but they could provide an exciting visual spectacle. They could be called the Roly Polys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faen6MlWzFw

[Out Of Trim]

Fishing seems to be very popular round here! :E

[Downwind Lander]

msbbarratt: You are right; there is fascinating tech in military circles.


dragartist says in #11:
"Evalu8, PTC, - Can we afford such things in the UK for HUMAID? Looks like the preserve of the guys on the other side of the pond".

Don't forget, dragartist, that patents run out - and sooner than one imagines.
Who makes the equipments?
What is the capital cost of what is required?
What is the cost per load?
Can the equipment on the load be returned to base for re-use?
---- surely, "Yes".

If useful, laser guided rice sacks should be achievable.
.