Foxbat

[Stendec5]

How would Lightnings have fared against the Mig-25 Foxbat...mano a mano?

[chopper2004]

Next question to be asked is, when Viktor Belyenko or Belenko (?) defected with his Mig 25 to Japan in 75, he subsequently ended up as an adviser / instructor for the US Navy - in particular the then Top Gun school at Miramar , did anyone from Strike Command or the BDS-USA had the pleasure of chatting to him in the years that followed?

Cheers

[foxvc10]

I seem to remember reading a classified manual quite thick that was based on Soviet air operations and seemed to have a strong Foxbat content.

[Pontius Navigator]

How would Lightnings have fared against the Mig-25 Foxbat...mano a mano?

Your question begs a question and thus two answers.

First, as an interceptor, if the Foxbat behaved like Concorde or SR71, then it would be low possibility. As a fighter, with good GCI assistance, no contest.

The point is that the Foxbat was an interceptor designed to intercept the B70.

As bombers I don't think either were particularly effective.

[Buster Hyman]

It might be a variant I'm unaware of, but I never thought of it as a Fighter, more a fast missile platform...(armchair expert here of course...). Did they ever fit guns to it?

[27mm]

The recce version of the Mig-25 was a very different kettle of fish......:cool:

[Agaricus bisporus]

when Viktor Belyenko or Belenko (?) defected with his Mig 25 to Japan in 75,

At the time Cliff Richard was touring Russia, prompting the headline (was it in NME?)

They've Got Cliff, We've Got The Foxbat. At That Rate Of Exchange Let's Send 'em Jethro Tull And We Can Disband NATO.

[TURIN]

I think you're living in the past with that one A.b.:O

[Courtney Mil]

Not too many answers so far tonight. On balance, given the difference in technology, the Foxbat should win every time. However, in the day, there would have been a big difference between the modi operandi of the pilots. Take both out of their comfort zone and the WIWOL may well have tipped the balance to some extent.

If you're just talking platforms, it's the MiG. Sorry.

[Thelma Viaduct]

What are the strakes under the engines for?

Stability issues, mods like the F4 anhedral tail plane for poor design??

[Buster Hyman]

Getting all "technical" for a moment, but what would you classify as a head to head encounter? (mano o mano)

If it's a stand off with missiles, the Mig has between four & six shots at you from distance, unsure of the max loadout for the Lightening. In which case, we could throw a 737 into the mix...http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/3/0/2155037.jpg

In my mind, if you were comparing them in a fight, I would imagine it being a dog fight...with guns...

Sorry, go easy on me, armchair expert & all...and yes, I know they're Harpoons on the 737.

[Bushfiva]

I thing the Lightning role counterpart variant would be the MiG-25P, and by their nature there would never be an encounter between them. Maybe with an RB. No guns on either, I think. R-40RT/TD missile was a bit of a monster but on an airframe like the 25RB I'd rather have R-40 than R-60: the latter would commit the plane to a dogfight it couldn't dominate. Also, R-60 entry was past Lightning's end-of-life, I think.

But in a synthetic Lightning vs MiG-25P fight with both starting either on the ground or at altitude beyond detection range, and the same pilot in both cockpits, I'd go with the -25P.

[barnstormer1968]

As technology and weapon performance (and amount carried) are mentioned here, which sets the lightning back from the start how about Tornado F3 v Foxbat?

[27mm]

Tricky, but not impossible, given enough warning. Would require a hefty zoom climb to drag the Foxbat within Skytrash snapup capability, which in turn would leave one vulnerable to Acrid, assuming good snapdown capability.

[Pontius Navigator]

The point is that both aircraft needed GCI assistance. I know one day the Mig 25 missed the first intercept as it was too slow launching. On its second attempt later in the day it was assessed as successful. In the recovery it violated Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and West German airspace.

Manoeuvres? Like a rocket.

On a 180 or 90 the Foxbat would win. On speed it would get out of jail, but if it missed on the intercept then the Lightning would not lose. If it came down to play I think the Lightning would win.

[Heathrow Harry]

I can't get the picture out of my head of Lightning going "head to head" with a Foxbat - combined closing speed M 4.5+

One bullet and then both of you are about 100 miles apart.....................

[chopper2004]

Ok how about its two seat derivative, the MIG-31 Foxhound then? I suspect (he says referring to his last century aerodynamic lecture notes from uni ) that the Mig 31 had slightly less performance due to the additional weight of a second seat and additional systems.

And as Barnstormer states, with the F.3, so in this case how would the F.3 fare against the Foxhound or for that matter the F-4J/K ,

Cheers

[Lima Juliet]

I flew the simulator profile of an F3 vs FOXBAT at 65-70Kft at M2.5+ lots and lots of times and also instructed it as well. As the jet or its Skyflash are no longer in service then I'll happily explain my experiences. The F3 would go to 50Kft at M1.3+ without too much difficulty at all, it would even go higher (I know! :ok:) but we didn't have the AEA to support us above 50Kft if we had to 'step outside' or if the pressurisation failed (above 50Kft you will suffer the 'bends' and even higher, due to the lower pressure, your blood will probably boil! :eek:). Anyway, you would accelerate at the tropopause to M1.2 when the intake ramps would kick in and then you could continue to accelerate and climb keeping the FOXBAT as close to 'beak to beak' as possible - depending on the type of Skyflash the snap up was around 20-30kft and you would look to get a rocket off as close to the top of the Launch Success Zone (LSZ) as possible and then at least 1-2 more before getting anywhere near the LSZ for an ACRID (backing it up with a Sidewinder or ASRAAM as you got really close!). As your combined speed of closure was around 40 miles a minute then it was all over pretty quick! A stern conversion was not an option against a M2.5+ FOXBAT as my personal best was just shy of M2.2 in the F3 - also at max combat you were pushing fuel through the engines so fast that even with full internal tanks you had ~10 minutes until they ran dry!!!:eek:

I hope that helps?

LJ

[Stendec5]

I had read somewhere, can't remember where exactly, that the Foxbat could (and did??) overfly UK airspace at such height and speed that nothing could get near it (presumably the recce version).
Well the only UK asset that might have got up there was the Lightning. Although the Lightning's performance was impressive its weapons system was, by the 1980s, practically steam driven.
The Foxbat however, had enormous power designed as it was to shoot down Mach-3 bombers, and very powerful radar. So I suppose the fighter version would "see" the Lightning at greater range getting in first with the huge Acrid AAMs before heading away at anything up to Mach 3??

What if we had developed some the aircraft that aviation genius Dummkopf Sands said we wouldn't need because, oh, you know the story.....

Lightning/Foxbat. Two Cold War icons. I salute them both.

[Pontius Navigator]

JTO, that sounds like a recipe for losing a few jets with the Foxbat not firing even one missile.

On Foxbat/Foxhound, we were not too worried about the Foxbat but Foxhound was a different matter.

Ditto Fishpot and Flaggon cf Firebar.

[dagenham]

I seem to recall the early foxbats needed the engines chucking if it was run at full chat for extended periods. So if the measure is airframe loss, a fast run in mikoyans finest might best electrics but it would be in deep maintenance for a few weeks or until the supply of engines ran out.

I was always amazed at the old fashioned electric fit until I was informed by one of the ex bat drivers that it was more resistant to emp than early digital systems, makes me glad I kept my old quad valve amp. At least I can play led zep if the ballon goes up and mrs dagenham can pedal her bicycle fast enough to keep the lights on.

[tiredolddog]

S5

You are thinking of Sputnik

[MAINJAFAD]

I had read somewhere, can't remember where exactly, that the Foxbat could (and did??) overfly UK airspace at such height and speed that nothing could get near it (presumably the recce version).

Doubt it, Soviets never made an incursion of the 12 mile limit of UK territoriality airspace with any of their military aircraft. Doubt a Foxbat could make it to the UK from East Germany either as it would have to dog leg around Denmark. Off course civil airliner with a hidden camera on with a filed Flight Plan may have happened though.

[MAINJAFAD]

The point is that both aircraft needed GCI assistance. I know one day the Mig 25 missed the first intercept as it was too slow launching. On its second attempt later in the day it was assessed as successful. In the recovery it violated Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and West German airspace.

SR-71 over the Baltic by any chance PN, Foxbat got within 5 NM of its stern from what I was told by somebody that saw it on a Radar in an unusual location.

[Flap62]

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29288277

Never mind Lightning, let's see how they got on against F22!

[Wander00]

FB - any chance of that URL in full please, or what goes in the gaps

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why Lightning and Foxbat? These are hardly contemporaries.

Surely Lightning and Mig 21 would be more like for like?

[MPN11]

Off course civil airliner with a hidden camera on with a filed Flight Plan may have happened though.
Regular occurrence with Aeroflot in Singapore in the late 60's ... the only civil aircraft who never managed to keep on the airway centreline, and thus overflew Tengah 'by accident' ;)

When they did it at night, we used to turn on the undercarriage check lights (large array of upward pointing runway lights at max intensity) in the vague hope it would spoil their photos (or at least let them know we had noticed).

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm sure we never did anything like that (cough cough)

[MPN11]

:cool: ;)

... and 10 characters!

[k3k3]

Pembroke;)

[MAINJAFAD]

HH

The 40 odd NATO / USAF / IIAF aircraft shot down or attacked over Soviet Airspace means we did do it (not counting the 500 odd high altitude balloon recce mission or the successful recce missions that were not intercepted). The problem with western airliners were that they didn't belong to the government (well BOAC and BA were for a while), they were not going to put their passengers at risk or risk the route being shut down by the Soviets after they impounded the aircraft on landing and found a hidden camera on it (or shot it down). Aeroflot airliners on the other hand were state owned and most of the fleet had a military reserve role, so the soviets didn't have that problem. Of course in most NATO countries the KGB only had to go out for a week day drive to get information.

[MAINJAFAD]

k3k3

Indeed, but not civil and amount of territory outside the Berlin corridor that could be covered was very limited.

[Pontius Navigator]

MAINJAFAD you might think that but I couldn't possibly comment.

As for doglegging around Denmark, why? If you're going to violate UK airspace why avoid Denmark, Germany, Holland and France? (Belgium is too small :))

BTW, what did Gadaffi need, or use, his Foxbats for; mega phallic symbol?

[MAINJAFAD]

PN

Dannish, Dutch and West German Nike Hercules batteries may have had some say in the matter of Foxbat overflights of Western Europe.

[pr00ne]

Stendec,

No way. OVER the UK?


If it hadn't been dealt with by NATO Nikes as MAINJAFAD pointed out, it would have been Bloodhound bait.

[Pontius Navigator]

Seriously do you think a single intruder, not committing a hostile act, would have been engaged?

I think SACEUR would have been seriously upset. When the Bat ran the Bloodhound, Hawk, Nike gauntlet there was no response by SAM and I am not aware of any Q reaction either. At 30 miles/min not much chance was there?

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN 11, last week I heard the following story.

At a Russian airfield it was noticed that groups of ground crew were waiting near their jets. It was cold. They had coke braziers burning near the aircraft.

When asked by the western observer why and was it not dangerous, they replied that it was designed to show the aircraft engines had been running. In fact they hadn't run for months.

[MAINJAFAD]

Seriously do you think a single intruder, not committing a hostile act, would have been engaged?

Most likely not the first time it happened (if it did), The western ROE is a bit more stringent on ID'ing the target before engaging than the Soviets were. Bloodhound 2 in Germany was primarily for low level air defence of the clutch airfields, with a high level role if required. KP on a Foxbat at 70,000ft and Mach 2.5 was 70% at the most favorable intercept geometry with the KP dropping down to zero quite rapidly outside that narrow angle (Foxbat at max chat as a receding target, not a hope in hell) . I doubt HAWK as it was back then was capable. As for the UK, there was no dedicated full time fixed site SAM defence between mid 1968 and late 1975 (and no operational units at all between 1970 and 75 (25 and 41 Sqn missile sections between 68 and 70 were all allocated as a deployable reserve and could only play in UK defence if they were not somewhere else like Malta or Cyprus). Seeing that the majority of the nations that it would have over flown to get to the UK don't have a 30 years rule, I would think that something concrete about a successful Mig 25 overflight would have come out in the public domain by now. Of course the Mig 25 did do known overflights of other places like Iran, Israel and in Africa (and maybe southern Europe)

[TEEEJ]

Wander00,

About six hours before the CF-18s intercepted the Russian bombers, American F-22 fighter jets were scrambled from a base in Alaska to meet a group of Russian aircraft, including two refuelling tankers, two MiG-31 fighters and two long-range bombers.

After the U.S. jets made contact, the group headed west back towards Russian airspace.

Canadian fighter jets intercept Russian bombers in Arctic - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-fighter-jets-intercept-russian-bombers-in-arctic-1.2772440)

[TEEEJ]

From Flight International 10 April 1976

MiG-25s over Britain?

Reports that Mikoyan MiG-25R Foxbat-A reconnaissance aircraft are making regular surveillance flights over the United Kingdom were last week flatly denied by the Ministry of Defence. Under-Secretary of State for the Royal Air Force Brynmor John said in the House of Commons on March 29 that there had been no high altitude intrusions into British sovereign airspace in the past 12 months. Nato officials would neither confirm nor deny reports of intrusions into other Nato airspace.

The reports originated on March 22 in the American aviation press which said that MiG-25s were "conducting daily surveillance mission over the Nato nations of Western Europe," as well as the Middle East and Mediterranean.

Article continues at following link

mach | night attack | attack missile | 1976 | 0585 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%200585.html)

[MAINJAFAD]

A New Scientist article from the same era says the same. An 'Aviation Week and Space Technology' bit of fiction from the time in my opinion.

[BEagle]

Around that time, a friend of mine was working as an ATCO at RAF Scampton. He saw something very odd on the radar and was going to report it (presumably as a UFO, for which reporting guidelines existed back then), but was told "You haven't seen anything...OK??". As a Plt Off wasn't really able to query this - and I was never able to ask him anything further as he sadly died a few years ago.

:confused:

[MAINJAFAD]

Beagle - Mach 3 tracks over the North Sea in early 1976 were very possible as that's when the 9th SRW SR-71 Det 4 set up shop at Mildenhall.

SR-71 Operations-Mildenhall UK (http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mildenhall.html)

[Lima Juliet]

Beags

More likely to be something on our side, I would have thought?

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Beat me to it by 1 minute, d'oh! :ok:

[BEagle]

Except, or so he said, that it was rather a large radar return and was capable of stopping in mid-air, then accelerating away at speed.......:confused:

And was over land, not sea.....:eek:

He wouldn't say any more - someone had obviously put the frighteners on him....

[barnstormer1968]

Maybe it was an RAF helicopter........... They are fast enough to shadow a bear and can stop in mid air :)

[LowObservable]

Viktor Suvorov (in 1982 book Inside the Soviet Army) fingered the Tu-123 Yastreb drone in the 1976 reports. It confused the heck out of everyone because Yastreb was very little known, but what we knew about the '25 said it could not go that far.