A question for employers

[aviator703]

Hello everyone, I have my recreational certificate (with all endorsements) and am doing a PPL conversion (with the goal of a CPL). I've been talking with my instructor about where I should be putting my money, whether I spend the next 100 hours in a 172, or get a recreational instructor rating and do a few of the 100 hours I have left to go instructing, and the rest in the 172. My (GA) instructor has made the good point that employers tend to disregard any RA hours. I am currently doing some (minor) RA instructor training since its something else I will have in my arsenal when I start looking for work, and was also planning to use it to make my CPL hour building just that little bit cheaper. But my question is what you as employers look for in potential employees? Do you look for the number of hours in a particular aircraft or the ratings a pilot has (eg MECIR or instructor)? Essentially I'm looking for where I should be spending my money based on how it will help me in the future. Any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[redsnail]

My info is about 20 years out of date and I no longer fly in Australia.
Questions.
1. Where do you want to get a job? In the city or out in the bush?
2. What's your ultimate goal?

Instructing definitely has benefits but I am not sure how the RAA instructing will cross over/be recognised on a CASA licence.
My first chief pilot said that he pretty much discounted any 4 cylinder flying unless it was to somewhere interesting. Use that flying to go somewhere different, such as Birdsville or Alice Springs. That is, gain some remote area experience and so on.

Probably the best forum for this question is the Dununda forum.
Good luck.

[aviator703]

Q1: I'm happy to fly anywhere. For a first job in the industry it's extremely unlikely I'll get the ideal job. As for city vs bush, I can swing either way. I grew up in the bush but I also like the city life so either is good for me.
Q2. Ultimate goal; throughout my career I want to experience as many of the different piloting roles I can (eg. charter, joy flights, fire bombing, search and rescue, crop dusting, to name a few). I will then (hopefully) spend the remainder of my career (be it 10 - 20 years) in the airlines, all depending on what I do beforehand. I might find something I really enjoy and stick with it.
All I'm curious about at the moment though is what employers look for in their recruits (eg hours vs endorsements)

[Centaurus]

I'm happy to fly anywhere.

Try applying to fly as a RAAF pilot. Lots of travel on good types from C17, C130, FA 18 Hornets. Well maintained aircraft, good pay, three meals a day and accommodation free. A no-brainer.

[Squawk7700]

I believe that Qantas do not count RAA time.

Some would consider ag work a career and not just something you try out on the way to the airlines so in order for someone to "give you a go," on ag flying, it might take an adjustment to your attitude towards using it as a stepping stone.

Another thing, your timeline may need reviewing. 10-20 years in airline has you starting at 45-50 years plus which would be moderately difficult to achieve. You'd want to be heading there much sooner if possible.

[hiwaytohell]

'703
I can't speak for others but having hired quite a few pilots over the years including first jobs this is my 2 cents worth:

First is attitude... you would be surprised how many people think I owe them a job.

Second is experience appropriate to the role... for example it pays to learn what the employer wants, with minimum hours etc, before you apply. If they require turbine time for example and you only have a CPL with a basic piston MECIR don't waste their time applying unless you are applying for some other role (say ops or ground handling) that might get you a leg up later on.

Third is hours. The RA hours are fine, but 1,000 hours RA instruction compared to 1,000 hours multi IFR charter are not in the same league.

Fourth return of service. If I hire someone I don''t want them piss off just after I get them trained endorsed etc

Fifth is persistence. It is a tough industry and weeds out the weak.

As for RA vs 172. Think about where do you want to be in 5 years and 10 years time, and take or create the opportunities that will get you there.

Personally I would not view much difference between 100 hours RA versus 172 on your CV, you need to consider which will give you the best experience and is most likely to open up opportunities... if it is paid job in either go for it!

[aviator703]

Thanks all for the replys, as for the RAAF option, I have considered it and would rather go alternate routes and use it more as a last resort, it's just not quite the lifestyle for me.
I know I need to plan ahead more, and probably should have done more of it a while ago, but right now I'm about to start the nav portion of the conversion which is (for me) a huge investment, so that's where my mind is at the moment. But my instructor has advised I ask around and see what's what so I know what to pay for, and what can be put aside and have just as many odds of getting a job as I would doing it the alternative ways.

[Mick Stuped]

703,
As regular newbie employer we look for the guy or girl that stands out. So think about what is your point of difference from the other hundred or so that want a job.

Sorry but if you rock up with only RA experience to a company that uses mainly 206 and 210's and 100 others applicants have Cessna experience you will just get binned. That's just a reality of first cut. We are done with instructors lately, and unless you really stand out instructors will now get binned, as we are finding lots of bad habits and attitudes in ex instructors.

You need good navigation skills(not GPS), good cross wind skills and short dirt strips experience, I know all those things that RA is good at but in a heavier higher powered aircraft. Get a few mates together share costs and get some bush experience go bush for fishing,races, B & S balls. We look at logbooks and previous 12 months flights and are looking for outback destinations without black strips.

Most important you need an easy going personality with a positive attitude and good people skills. A want to work and a genuine love of flying.
We have a saying that sums it up. Fly to work not work to fly.

MS

[pineappledaz]

Mick,

Is that because the vast majority of instructors are just using you as another stepping stone, just like they probably did with instructing? If the end goal is just building hours to climb into a twin at the drop of a hat to get into an airline there will never ever be any love for any job.

I was very fortunate to have stumbled across a brilliant instructor. Took me to every farm paddock strip in NZ he could find. Used to make me run 1 wheel down the centreline of the runway to get the cross wind landings. Took ages to clean all the cow poop off the plane.

Are you looking for anyone at the moment, I know of this young lad in NZ, brilliant attitude, a great pilot and all round good bugger.

[smiling monkey]

Used to make me run 1 wheel down the centreline of the runway to get the cross wind landings. Took ages to clean all the cow poop off the plane.

Are you looking for anyone at the moment, I know of this young lad in NZ, brilliant attitude, a great pilot and all round good bugger.

He'd probably take you if you could land on one wheel down the the centreline, but not your instructor. If I recall correctly, MS mentioned in a previous thread that instructors can't do cross-wind landings.

[pineappledaz]

Don't think the wife would be too impressed with a top end gig! you never know I might have done it on the front wheel ha ha.

I can see why MS would say that about some instructors..because of the high number of close calls our flying was stopped at 5kts crosswind! It has become a problem that has turned around full circle. Without the skill, instructors can't pass that knowledge on to students. This was the real problem and the cause of a high number of close calls..so instead of teaching the instructors & students limitations were put in place..sigh.

I was lucky to find an old school instructor who took me out in all kinds of weather..even showing me what 18kts crosswinds are like for a wee 152(Didn't land just overshot the runway)..hence the practice of running a wheel down the runway to get that crosswind technique(10-15kts)

Can understand the attitude thing though..always the first quote often spoken after becoming an instructor "Time to get some hours"

[pokeydokey]

Must say that the as a general rule i agree with your current instructor - the RA hours are a total waste of time. Have to apply a bit of tough love there. We see about 1 resume a week from a young instructor and in the past have received up to 40 resume's when we place ads for staff. So culling those with very little GA time is one of the first stages. Partly because we look for people with experience flying the aircraft that we use and people that have good controlled airspace experience. It's also partly because there are next to no "standards" when it comes to RA training. Simple fact that one RA instructor could have been trained to a very high standard whilst another will not. Unless we know the school they were trained at or worked for we can't make that call. Don't get me wrong - there are some GA schools out there that do not look good on the resume either!

We're paying around $60 per flying hour for a Grade 3 GA instructor so we don't feel too bad about making harsh decisions.

If you're lucky enough to find work with a school that does both RA and GA then it might be worthwhile plugging away with the RA in the hope of moving across to GA stuff but that's probably the only scenario when it might work.

[Draggertail]

Quote "We're paying around $60 per flying hour for a Grade 3 GA instructor so we don't feel too bad about making harsh decisions."

That's good info Pokeydokey, thanks. I see you are paying your instructors a good hourly rate for flying. What rate to they get for briefings, aircraft preparation etc?

Cheers,

[Aussie Bob]

We're paying around $60 per flying hour for a Grade 3 GA instructor so we don't feel too bad about making harsh decisions.

Good thing Pokey Donk, well under the award ...

[Humbly Reserved]

We're paying around $60 per flying hour for a Grade 3 GA instructor so we don't feel too bad about making harsh decisions.

What rate to they get for briefings, aircraft preparation etc?

I imagine that this is how much a school pays them for airtime and that this is a casual wage with the Junior3's earning next to nothing for briefings, admin, cleaning etc.

Sadly I've noticed a couple of students from aero clubs whose theory knowledge is so poor because their instructors don't properly brief them prior to flight that it hinders progress. Also should double check whether $60 actually meets the award...

P.S. I will never set foot in an RA aircraft, lost too many friends to inferior machines.

HR

[Aussie Bob]

Also should double check whether $60 actually meets the award...

No double checking needed and this guy is bragging about it as though its something special. This industry really sucks sometimes :ugh:

[sploshpuppy]

We're paying around $60 per flying hour for a Grade 3 GA instructor so we don't feel too bad about making harsh decisions.

Wow, wish I was on that. I'm a Grade 1, and I only get $50 per flying hour. :(

[pineappledaz]

"This industry really sucks sometimes"

Just sometimes?? I thought IT was bad 20 years ago..In what other industry do you get people lining up out the door to work for nothing or even pay to work.

FFS people holding road signs have better career prospects.

[BlatantLiar]

showing me what 18kts crosswinds are like for a wee 152(Didn't land just overshot the runway)

Its good that you cleared that up. I would have spat my coffee on the screen had I read that you've been exceeding demonstrated x-wind.

[pineappledaz]

ha ha I'm pretty sure I left something on the seat though:uhoh:

[50 50]

If one can demonstrate a successful cross wind landing above the maximum published, wouldn't that constitute the new "demonstrated" maximum?

Sticking to topic though, having seen every operator in Sydney and getting absolutely nothing, I'm stuck where to go from here. Living in a top end caravan park is out of the question, so what now?

It appears the situation is no different in Queensland or Victoria.

[pineappledaz]

50 50..find yourself a great job outside of aviation..find a syndicate and buy a plane..you will get so many more enjoyable hours and probably have more money left over.

I did this..love the part time instructing..and still enough money at the end of the week.

[50 50]

Thanks Daz, good advice. I guess I have to re-evaluate where this can take me.

I have a good job outside aviation, and am seriously thinking purchase may be the only option left. I would love part time instructing and have my instructor rating. Can't even get a day every second weekend to make me feel like I haven't wasted 100K.

[pokeydokey]

For those that asked (and others that think otherwise) - per the current award - Casual Grade 3 is $60.66 per flying hour ($19.91 per hour - not flying hour - if they're part-time).

No idea why it's mainly per flying hour that gets paid but that's the way it is. RA instructors are not included in the award as it starts with the base pay being that of a Grade 3 instructor.

Once they prove competence and commitment they're generally offered a full-time position. Also no avenue for lax instructing - the CFI's always looking over their shoulder and runs an extremely tight ship.

For those that think the industry sucks - read up a bit on the economic theory of "supply and demand". As i said before the school has advertised for positions in the past and received 40-odd applications from Grade 3's... It's also a simple fact that the award rate is a lot more than many schools out there pay - and the school's that try to do things right are competing with them.

[Aussie Bob]

Well I will be the first to eat a bit of humble pie, it appears as I can see it: For a grade three with less than 300 hours TT $47.00 per hour with a minimum of two hours pay per shift rising a tad when the instructor reaches 300 hours total time and rising again when they gain their first 100 hours of instruction, to a grade two rate.

I guess your pay is pretty good Pokey ... Unless I am looking at the wrong award.

I got the award here (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/consolidated_awards/AP/AP792332/asframe.html)

[pokeydokey]

Thanks AussieBob. The school's only relatively small and the owner has worked pretty hard to be able to afford to pay the award rates.

That's the old award though - rates have changed a little. New award is at:

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf

[pineappledaz]

In NZ the minimum pay is I think $13.50/hr. Lots of flying schools hire people on a casual basis and can get away with paying for just the time in the air. No pay for briefs. Only ground school pay is tutoring for theory exams.

Most flying schools offer a wee bit more though..around $20 per flying hour..but are still expected to be around the hangar all day. Grocery money really..this is why so many kiwis hop over to Oz and jump for joy at the pay rates over there.

[pineappledaz]

And how would everyone get to the 500hrs then...all self funded?

[Horatio Leafblower]

And how would everyone get to the 500hrs then...all self funded?

No, they would get a job (if they were any good) or they would fail, or Daddy would buy them the hours.

It seems to work in Helicopter world.

It would increase the standard of instructing immeasurably because the only guys who get the rating would be guys who WANT the rating, AND they would have the hours to back it up.

No more 200-hour seat-warmer Grade Threes who are lttle more than a safety pilot and frankly, probably not much good even for that. :ugh:

[TSIO540]

We are done with instructors lately, and unless you really stand out instructors will now get binned, as we are finding lots of bad habits and attitudes in ex instructors.

Having done instructing, freight, charter and airline flying I'm curious to know what makes instructors so unsuitable for charter work these days...?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I can't answer for the guy you're quoting, TIO, but:

There seems to be something about spending every day being the Font of All Aviation Wisdom that - for some people - doesn't translate very well into a work situation (such as charter and an airline cockpit) where you need to be a bit more humble, receptive, curious.

It doesn't apply to all instructors by any means.... but it is common enough.

Just an observation

[50 50]

Normally I agree with Horatio, but this time I will digress.

I don't have quite 500 hours (450) but I did have a job, that is, until I asked where my pay was. Thankyou very much Warren Gengos.

I have the rating, I do want to teach, and I am almost completely self funded. Not that there are any funds left.

Unfortunately 200 hour rich children are they only one that can afford to be exploited for a couple of years. In the current climate I could offer to pay for work and still get knocked back.

[pineappledaz]

"Font of All Aviation Wisdom that - for some people - doesn't translate very well into a work situation (such as charter and an airline cockpit) where you need to be a bit more humble, receptive, curious."

Just general life skills that are all too often missing..

If you did any job but only used that job to get somewhere else you will never have 100% commitment to that job. I saw it all too often in the IT world. I would employ people onto a help desk and 2 weeks later they were wanting to be network/server admin. They never cared about the initial job. Same applies for the majority of instructors. Most flying schools are now factories..the vast majority of instructors just want to fly something bigger/faster/better or get paid so little of course there is no love for what they do.