Sense of Humo(u)r failure?

[brickhistory]

Apologies if already covered. Didn't see it posted.

I understand tradition and this can lead to copycat/one upmanship attempts, but c'mon.

Other than some additional marching/serious shouting at, is it that serious? Looks like a bored squaddie that can be cured with some remedial 'adult' language.

Completely unknowing about what the soldier's record actually is, so maybe this was his last chance. But if not...


Dancing Buckingham Palace Guard Faces Prison for Protocol Breach (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/14/Dancing-Guardsman-Faces-Jail)

And yes, I would not be amused to see our equivalent - The Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown - doing such.

But correcting such with formal punishment for a first infraction?

[Sloppy Link]

Discipline dear boy, discipline. If a soldier lacks the integrity of self discipline, it is for the Army to instil it in him whilst at the same time letting others know that indiscipline will not be tolerated. He knew full well that what he was doing was wrong and therefore it is for him to suffer the consequences. You, by your very words, say you would not be amused if this were to happen at the Tomb of the Unknown - I am equally unamused at this individual bringing my Nations Armed Forces reputation into disrepute, his actions in a high profile position in the public eye should have been beyond reproach. I have no sympathy.

[ArthurR]

He knows the rules, he broke them, deserves what ever punishment they give him.

[brickhistory]

No argument against "discipline" and/or punishment for breaking the rules.

Proportionality and/or informal discipline as a better method than a court-martial?

In the larger picture, I guess I see more and more an inability for leadership's discretion on how to handle buffoonery rather than going the 'full Monty' with military legal proceedings.

In the old days, some 'wall to wall' counseling saved many a good soldier/airman from a bit of stupidity ending a career.

[clunckdriver]

As a Canadian, let me see if Ive got this right, its OK for one of the Royal family children to run around nude with a bunch of Hookers whilst representing the UK on exchange as an officer with a foriegn airforce, but dare a non- member of the inbred English elite shows a bit of bad judjment you all want to crucify him? Canada moves ever closer to becoming a Republic every time this sort of crap makes the news!

[strake]

My dear Clunckdriver. It is the duty of young male royalty to run around naked, bedding wenches and generally being a cad - for a while at least. It is the role of a Guardsman to act like one.

[Clockwork Mouse]

What is informal discipline? Code Red? He will not be court martialled. He will be dealt with summarily at unit level by his CO who can award 21 days and forfeiture of pay.

There goes his LSGC. Yes, amusing to watch but what does it say to the public about the standards of discipline and responsibility in his regiment and the UK armed forces? He has broken the code and has no honour! He'll regret his idiocy when he gets to MCTC.

[Tankertrashnav]

Proportionality and/or informal discipline as a better method than a court-martial?

In fact I dont think that a court martial will happen. Unless things have changed a lot since I was in, this offence can be dealt with by the soldier's commanding officer, and I think I am right in saying that he can be awarded up to 28 days detention (not imprisonment, although in effect that's what it is). Of course the soldier can elect to be tried by court martial, but as he is "bang to rights" I doubt if that would be a sensible choice!

Sorry Clockwork Mouse, you beat me to it!

[brickhistory]

He will be dealt with summarily at unit level by his CO who can award 21 days and forfeiture of pay.

Which is absolutely fine and what I hope for.

I assumed that taking money took a formal court-martial which would be OTT, in my opinion.

[Mr C Hinecap]

But correcting such with formal punishment for a first infraction?

There are levels of formal punishment ranging from 'do some crap jobs in your own time' to 'go to prison'. Why should that system not be used? The sliding scale of formal punishment has an according effect upon his record.

[The Helpful Stacker]

As 'Clockwork Mouse' says, this won't go to court martial, but for such a public breach of discipline, punishment must be seen to have been carried out.

If the Guardsmen was caught dicking about solely by an NCO out of the public eye then I'm sure a bit of "wall to wall" counselling as you put it 'Brickhistory' would be adequate. Dicking about in front of one of the most photographed/filmed buildings in London, and allowing evidence of such actions to be broadcast around the world, is a slightly different matter.

This is a Guardsman who is a member of the Household Division on Ceremonial Duties. The very title Guardsman implies what he should be doing, not acting like a ****.

[clunckdriver]

Stacker, how can he guard anything with half a dead bear on his head, obscuring his vision and no live rounds up the spout? What next, no "zapping" visiting aircraft, wearing red hairpieces on April the first? {this done by a well known Air Force display team} Ah, but we in the in the "Empire" must remember that there are two sets of rules in the UK, one for the elite, and one for the "Great Unwashed", cant wait for the day we dump the whole royalty crap! {Ex RCAF Aircrew by the way.}

[Stanwell]

Heavens no!
Bliar and Camoron are the only officially approved British clowns allowed on the world stage right now.

After severely reprimanding him, I'd have bought him a pint.
(But then, I'm only an old Sar' Major from the colonies, perhaps I'm a bit out of date.)


.

[Bob Viking]

Jesus Christ fella. Would you like some mayo with that enormous chip?!
BV:rolleyes:

[P6 Driver]

Another web site reported that he was awarded 21 days inside - I don't claim the information is correct, however (that's the Interweb for you!).

[Tashengurt]

I don't have a huge amount of sympathy. Mainly because of the stupidity of doing something so obvious!
I do think it's a leap to suggest he's got no honour though!


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Clockwork Mouse]

Clunckdriver

OK, we get it. You favour a republic rather than a constitutional monarchy for the UK. But wait a minute, you aren't a brit, so what are you worried about and why are you being so bloody rude about our system and the members of the Royal Family?

if you want Canada to renounce the British Monarch as your titular head and sever the relationship with the UK, then vote for it. We brits won't object. in the meantime wash your mouth out and stop being an arse.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Tashengurt

"I do think it's a leap to suggest he's got no honour though!"

Just watched "A Few Good Men" on Sky so I was talking the talk! Code Red. Code. Honor. Great film!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Stacker, how can he guard anything with half a dead bear on his head, obscuring his vision and no live rounds up the spout?

"No live rounds"? An odd version of live armed guard that one.

What next, no "zapping" visiting aircraft, wearing red hairpieces on April the first? {this done by a well known Air Force display team}

Was that done in full view of the general public and broadcast around the world?

Ah, but we in the in the "Empire" must remember that there are two sets of rules in the UK, one for the elite, and one for the "Great Unwashed", cant wait for the day we dump the whole royalty crap! {Ex RCAF Aircrew by the way.}

(Not that it has much bearing to a serviceman dicking around in public whilst on guard but I'll humour you..) so its only the 'Empire' that has examples of different rules for the elite is it? (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/06/texas-teenager-affluenza-escapes-jail-second-time)

The land of my birth has as much if not more inequality than the land in which I serve. Perhaps its not a Republicanism/Royalty thing huh?

Are you sure you're not a French-Canadian? You sure whine like one.

[Roadster280]

There's a difference between detention and imprisonment. Not much a difference, mind.

This guy (according to arrse) got 21 days' detention. For any non-UK pers, this means 21 days in jail. As it was over 14 days, he would probably have served this in the Military Corrective Training Centre. Which is not quite a prison. But does lock the miscreants up at night and finds tiring military training for them to do during the day.

The prisoners are not paid, therefore they are effectively fined, although the CO can award a fine as well as detention. Periods in detention have to be "paid back" at the end of one's service too, so when the guy gives notice to leave, he would have to do another 3 weeks (paid) to account for his "non-service" over and above the notice period.

[Just This Once...]

Very little distinction between detention and prison since 2009 as even summary hearings can see you with a civilian criminal record.

[Stanwell]

Yeah, a criminal record - that's great, isn't it?
What goes on in the services should stay in the services.

Some of the worst clowns on the parade ground have been the ones
that have saved our @rses when things became, er.., difficult.
In fact, I personally owe my life to one of them.


Just kick his @rse and let him learn from it, that's all.
.

[brickhistory]

This

Very little distinction between detention and prison since 2009 as even summary hearings can see you with a civilian criminal record.

and this


Just kick his @rse and let him learn from it, that's all.


were my points succinctly made by these comments.

[barnstormer1968]

This whole matter was done and dusted before this thread started.
ARRSE were all over this, and as usual had mixed levels of support for this guardsman.

[brickhistory]

Apologies (as stated in OP). Hadn't seen it and not a member of the forum you mentioned.

Still, it has gone to page two, so perhaps not completely covered...

[Al R]

Chaps, let's not forget - it's not (not) the Royal Army by coincidence. :hmm:

I'd be curious as to his motivation, that must have a bearing on things, surely. Either way, I'm sure that that measure of success these days (his facebook activity) will have gone through the roof.

Of course, if the Queen's Colour Sqn had been on the job that day, the public may have been spared the sight of the woodentops letting the side down.

[charliegolf]

He knows the rules, he broke them, deserves what ever punishment they give him.

As did the piano burners (high spirits), secret laptop losers et al?

I think not.

CG

[Roadster280]

Chaps, let's not forget - it's not (not) the Royal Army by coincidence. :hmm:

...

Of course, if the Queen's Colour Sqn had been on the job that day, the public may have been spared the sight of the woodentops letting the side down.

Ok, I'll bite.

1. The Household Division are the Sovereign's personal troops. They don't need to be "Royal"; they already are, by definition.

2. QCS's raison d'être is related to the RAF, not the Royal Household. The Colour is presented to the RAF, and the QCS guard it. An internal role, if you will. Yes, I am well aware that they have guarded the Palaces, Windsor and the Tower. But so have the TA and the RCMP.

3. I agree that said wooden top needed his arrse kicked and so it came to pass. 21 days in clink. Clanngg, mind your fingers.

Sorted. Next.

[onetrack]

If he'd been an Aussie Digger (Australian Serviceman - noted for their thumbing of their collective noses at "protocol" and "royalty" and anyone with their head so far up their ar$e, they can see their esophagus), he'd have certainly have been disciplined as well.
However, in the AMF, he'd probably get 14 days CB for "conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline".

14 days CB means you're Confined to Barracks, and you have to spend some serious amounts of time jogging around a parade ground or up a nearby hill wearing full pack. It's designed to curtail enthusiasm for "pranks" - and it largely works.

Being jailed for 21 days seems to me to be a little over-the-top and unproductive. Being yelled drill instructions by a senior NCO who would rather be elsewhere, than drilling undisciplined members of the forces, is a better way of instilling the discipline that the unruly member lacked.

Instilling self-discipline via the application of external discipline has been the modus operandi of all disciplined military forces since time began.

The clown behaviour whilst on parade, and on public display, shows an inclination towards juvenile behaviour - not the behaviour of a responsible adult who exercises self-discipline.

[Roadster280]

If he'd been an Aussie Digger (Australian Serviceman - noted for their thumbing of their collective noses at "protocol" and "royalty" and anyone with their head so far up their ar$e, they can see their esophagus), he'd have certainly have been disciplined as well.
However, in the AMF, he'd probably get 14 days CB for "conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline".

14 days CB means you're Confined to Barracks, and you have to spend some serious amounts of time jogging around a parade ground or up a nearby hill wearing full pack. It's designed to curtail enthusiasm for "pranks" - and it largely works.

Being jailed for 21 days seems to me to be a little over-the-top and unproductive. Being yelled drill instructions by a senior NCO who would rather be elsewhere, than drilling undisciplined members of the forces, is a better way of instilling the discipline that the unruly member lacked.

Instilling self-discipline via the application of external discipline has been the modus operandi of all disciplined military forces since time began.

The clown behaviour whilst on parade, and on public display, shows an inclination towards juvenile behaviour - not the behaviour of a responsible adult who exercises self-discipline.

Disagree. Military jail is not like civvy jail. He will most certainly have spent his 21 days being yelled at by SNCOs. A whole Corps of them, the Military Provost Staff Corps, who run the Military Corrective Training Centre. A whole world of hurt for 3 weeks. Drill, PT, battle PT, polishing and pressing anything and everything.

"CB" is somewhat similar to "Jankers' or Restriction of Privileges. Detention is basically the same thing 24 x 7 rather than just before and after normal work. Yes, ROPs is a ballache because you have to do both that and normal work, but not in the same league as detention.

[parabellum]

This may have been the soldiers first step at orchestrating his own medical discharge, (with disability pension etc. etc.).

[Whenurhappy]

The Guardsman failed to conduct his duties in a professional manner - his duties on this occasion were (ceremonial) guard duties. He's not been court martialed - he's been subject to summary justice from his CO for failing to carry out his duties. Simple.

And I can assure you that service personnel who f&ck up in the Mess or lose a laptop are dealt with pretty severely these days.

[The Oberon]

I think you will find that the guardsman was sentenced to 21 days and he "did his time" in the regimental cells, not a Military Prison. If his sentence extended to over 28 days, he would have automatically been sent to a prison. It is not uncommon for Army C.O.s to sentence offenders to 27 days 23 hours and 59 minutes to keep things in house.


As to comparing his antics to piano burning and other "high jinks", the answer is simple, high jinks applied to commissioned aircrew. If I, or any of my non commissioned colleagues, had behaved the same way towards NAAFI furniture, chopped up and burnt a second hand piano or built and discharged a "mess cannon", it would have been a whole different ball game.

[Chris Kebab]

...how has this all ended up in the Military Aviation section of a web site for professional aviators:confused:

It's an ARRSE issue and should have stayed over there; personally think the mods should move or bin it.

[Tankertrashnav]

sprintman - I've started noticing your posts of late, and having read a few, I think it's about time you came out and made an honest admission

You really don't like Britain or the Brits much, do you?

Still, having read Bill Bryson's description of Canberra in Down Under I can understand why you're bitter.

;)

[Herod]

I suspect that parabellum might have got it right. "Sorry doctor, it's the voices in my head that told me to do it"

[Whenurhappy]

As to comparing his antics to piano burning and other "high jinks", the answer is simple, high jinks applied to commissioned aircrew. If I, or any of my non commissioned colleagues, had behaved the same way towards NAAFI furniture, chopped up and burnt a second hand piano or built and discharged a "mess cannon", it would have been a whole different ball game.


Mess hi-jinks are very much in the past. There is, I believe, very little tolerance of criminal damage (I make the distinction here) in Messes these days. But then mess-life is oxymoronic; the messes I've been to over the last couple of months have been dire: crap accommodation, crap food, crap service, deathly quiet bars - everyone is in their room on t'internet, it seems. There are good messes - probably on training establishments - but their days as some sort of exclusive club are well and truly passed.

[Typhoon93]

I agree. I find it offensive that he referred to us as 'inbred'.

As for the Guardsman, he broke protocol so he should be punished by his CO, but certainly not dealt with by a court martial. Ruining a persons life for five minutes of stupidity that at the end of the day, hasn't and isn't likely to hurt anyone but his self and his medal count, is over the top.

Clunk, for the record, the rounds in the weapon are live.

PS. The blade of the bayonet is sharp too!

[Roadster280]

Oberon - it is no longer 28 days, the cutoff has been 14 days since 2006, so Gdsm Nureyev would have most likely have gone to the Motor Cycle Training Centre to have his sense of duty improved for him.

[charliegolf]

As to comparing his antics to piano burning and other "high jinks", the answer is simple, high jinks applied to commissioned aircrew. If I, or any of my non commissioned colleagues, had behaved the same way towards NAAFI furniture, chopped up and burnt a second hand piano or built and discharged a "mess cannon", it would have been a whole different ball game.

I was alluding to double standards, not suggesting like for like.

CG

[gr4techie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9694470/Army-disciplinary-hearings-condemned-as-kangaroo-courts.html

http://www.channel4.com/news/army-discipline-often-equivalent-to-kangaroo-courts

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/defence/article3711905.ece

Blackadder is court-martialled - Blackadder - BBC - YouTube

[Stanwell]

Thankyou, Typhoon. Well put. (Post #40)

Whenur,
(Post #39) Sad but true - but the OR's and Sergeant's messes here in OZ were not, back in my day, what I would call 'exclusive'.

Chris Kebab,
(Post #35) I think I've got a job for you, lad.. See me after you've finished sweeping the hangar.


.

[alwayslookingup]

I see a bored stiff squaddie who lightened up his stag by providing a bit of light entertainment to what sounded like a clearly appreciative audience.

The kids we hear on the soundtrack will remember that more than they would an ordinary Guardsman on sentry duty, and probably tell their pals.

With that kind of initiative and situational awareness the Guardsman's probably just the kind of guy you'd want around when the bullets are flying.

Just a thought.

[Typhoon93]

Guarding the Queen is supposed to be an honour. Isn't being a Guardsman voluntary?

[Basil]

high jinks applied to commissioned aircrew
Really? No-one in the Sergeants Mess ever got up to any stunts? I am astonished. Recollect a sergeant who had congress with a wren in our station sub-aqua club amongst the cylinders and demand valves. I was officer i/c; hope I didn't use an adjacent DV next time we went off diving :yuk:
Anyway, you may be unaware that, if any damage to government property was caused as a result of those 'high jinks' the cost of repair would appear on the bar bills of all present.
Most stunts happen in private and do not bring the Service into disrepute; this chap's 'moment of glory' was about as public as you can get. I'm sure he's a great soldier, buddy and all that but 'don't do the crime' etc
He will, of course, live on in regimental (unofficial) history ;)

[OvertHawk]

This is representative of a number of things that have occurred recently where the stupidity of the offence itself is overridden by the stupidity of doing it when you know full well that people are videoing it.

Whether it's ponceing about in front of Buck-house or "offing" a mortally wounded unlawful combatant in Afghanistan - you know it's against the rules so if you're going to do it don't do it while someone is videoing it... How difficult can that be??? :ugh:

[parabellum]

Although anything over 14 days detention is served in Colchester by some units, particularly units with no guardroom, using civvy security etc. I would expect full blooded regiments/battalions who run a full guardroom with Regimental Police etc. to take care of their own.


The Guards particularly do things their own way! They, for instance, wear shoulder flashes on their No.2 dress, have their own unique way of doing drill and many other idiosyncrasies that I can't bring to mind at the moment, so I would expect them to run their own detention up to 28 days still and it wouldn't be pleasant! I stand to be corrected, any Guardsmen out there?


This link; Military Corrective Training Centre (MCTC) - British Army Website (http://www.army.mod.uk/agc/provost/31929.aspx) makes interesting reading, if you want to know what goes on at Colchester and definitely says it is used for 14 days up to 2 years detention.
Hardly seems worth the trouble for taking someone there for just two weeks!

[brickhistory]

To those complaining about the thread existing "in a forum for military aircrew" and it's all been talked to death, let me ask/add:

Don't Guardsmen, when on operational duty to two-way firing ranges, fly on military transport aircraft? Therefore, the sentry in question either has been or could be on such a military aircraft?

Sorted, I think you call it.


And I've learned all sorts of interesting old and current nuggets about British military justice dispensation (no comment on it; doesn't sound too different than US, with some exceptions).

[Tankertrashnav]

Lest it be thought that there are double standards for officers, as has been alleged, I can relate a story told to me by an old chum who was an ensign in the Welsh Guards at the time of the incident. Going home for the weekend, he bumped into his adjutant at Paddington. Spotting the fact that my chum had committed the heinous offence of wearing brown shoes in London (in civvies), the adjutant ordered him back to Wellington Barracks, where he spent the weekend on regimental duties as a punishment.

Not quite 3 weeks detention, but then wearing brown shoes wasn't quite in the same category as making an arse of yourself in the public gaze.

[BEagle]

"Never brown in Town" was the old adage.

[Basil]

Not only worn 'brown in town' but worn lightweight suit + brown in The Club and, ISTR, next door too.
That's what happens if you commission oiks like me :}

[goudie]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXmaA3gzyOAeBaGhtkZgjkI5y5UVq9ibSx7DNOo1v fjD8eMF5tow

Can't imagine one of these border guards messing about

[clunckdriver]

Bob Vikung, Helpfull Staker, sorry I couldnt get back to you sooner, have been flying around the country trying not to bend anything. Now, to answer your questions, no, Im not a French Canadian, and as for them "whining" you display a typical narrow Brit perception of Canada, the Royal 22nd Regiment are not only a superb fighting unit, but in the last few weeks were doing gaurd duty at the very location where this British soldier was clowning around, they last did this duty in 1917 after the battle of Vimy Ridge, ,shortly after the Canadian troops won that battle , a feat not acomplished by British or French forces . I for one rather envy the French speaking units in the Canadian Forces, the generally dont get lumbered with poor leaders but tend to retain the likes of Wing Comander Lacombe, {Jo the group to all his crews} who led 425 Squadron in WW2 . By the way, having served with many units in the past the most "whining" I ever heard was from an RAF navigator who spent some time over here with a U/S aircraft, somthing about his grass would need cutting if he didnt get back home soon. {I kid you not} As for "inbred upper class", a short look at the blood lines of the so called "upper class" says it all. Yes, I may offend you, but not nearly as much as some of the Brits who seem to think that having the Gattling Gun to build their Empire in the past is somthing to be proud of, I can only wonder that to what degree this attitude has resulted in the rank stupidity going on in Scotlad today.

[Basil]

the Brits who seem to think that having the Gattling Gun to build their Empire in the past is somthing to be proud of
I do hope you aren't one of those chaps who believes in a 'fair fight'.
A quick look at Sun Tzu's ancient literary efforts would suggest that is not the way to wage war.

[Hangarshuffle]

I haven't seen the video (not interested).The whole episode was blown out of proportion by social media, then our own rapacious press. At most its a Minor Administrive Action (if they still do them) which should have sufficed.
Not prison or any form of detention-get a grip. Some of the replies on here make me wonder about the background and former careers of some of the prune inmates.
Since I've returned to being a civvy (after 4 very different decades of service in the 80's 90's 00's and teenies), I'm only now finally beginning to see through a lot of the military way of doing things. A lot of the time, it isn't always the right way.
And the person beforehand who said that sometimes its the "awkward squad "types that come up trumps when it matters was spot on.

[Genstabler]

Hangarshuffle

Another remarkably revealing post from you. I am starting to understand what makes you tick.

How interesting that you are confident enough to accuse the social media, the rapacious press and a load of pruners of over reacting to this incident, despite not actually having watched the video itself! Perhaps confident is the wrong word. Misguided or prejudiced are probably more accurate adjectives.

As for your "awkward squad often come up trumps" comment, what a load of drivel. Do you really believe that a professional infantryman, who gets so bored while guarding Buck House in public that he feels it is OK to clown about, can be relied on to maintain his alertness and discipline doing sangar duty in a war zone?

I suggest you set aside your prejudice, look at the evidence and consider the context before committing yourself to a verdict in future.

[Bob Viking]

I never said I was offended by your remarks. I think you'll find what I posted was banter. Something you clearly didn't pick up on. Are you sure you aren't French Canadian?!
BV:E

[clunckdriver]

Nope, definately not a "Pea Souper", father, {an RFC Observer in WW1} was from Sligo, mother from Cornwall, {the one in the UK, not Ontario} so not a trace of French blood in us, but we do all speak more than just English, and live in and area which has a 50/50 French/Engish speaking population.

[Stanwell]

Genstabler,
28 days (or whatever) PLUS a criminal record for acting the goat?
There are plenty of less severe but nonetheless effective ways of maintaining discipline.

As for "guarding" the Palace, please don't make me laugh. Clockwork tin soldiers would be just as effective.
At Victoria Barracks here, civvy contractors look after the day-to-day security while the lads are busy polishing their brass and ironing their creases to look good for the tourist cameras and politicians' media flunkies.

It wasn't just appearance that made the Empire great - however much some people might like to think it was (particularly the British officer class).
Cast your mind back to the dark days of WWI and the oft complained-about impertinence of the 'Diggers'.

Pop out to Australia some time and we'll show you the meaning of 'Balance'.
.

[BEagle]

Stanwell wrote: Pop out to Australia some time and we'll show you the meaning of 'Balance'.

Yes, we know. Keeping those chips on your shoulders balanced must be such a bug.ger......:rolleyes:

[Stanwell]

Yep. That was funny.
No Sense of Humo(u)r failure there.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Not all officers are inbred.

[Avionker]

Of course they are not.

Some are promoted from the ranks.:E

[Hangarshuffle]

If the young guard did get 28 days then it is a disgrace. An over-reaction.
And possibly real evidence the UK military is suffering from a crisis of confidence at the moment.

[parabellum]

Sorry, totally disagree Hangarshuffle. This lad is in the Household Division and they take guarding the monarch very seriously. Discipline in the Guards has always been tough and this guardsman would have known what to expect. As I said before, this may the start of working his ticket.

[exrivofrigido]

We take discipline seriously in the Foot Guards - not a secret and something of a point of pride. Our position in the Army, the feats of arms accomplished by those who wore the uniform before us and indeed by those who will wear it when we have gone, are founded on that simple, immovable point. I can't really comment on the incident in question except to say that I haven't encountered a great deal of sympathy for him amongst our NCOs. If he got 21 days, he will almost certainly have 'done' them at Colly - very few, if any, barracks these days have licenced cells any more. Even quite new ones are out of ticket now - the Home Office regulations change so fast that it's simply too expensive to keep upgrading them, so we've ended up with just a few 'hub' locations.

Grenadiers (probably resenting somewhat their more illustrious elders ;)) are especially 'regimental' about such things. I am minded of one of the most impressive soldiers I have ever met, a giant of a man, sadly later KIA, who, on a previous tour, carried a wounded Guardsman over his shoulder for something like a 2km fighting extraction. On reaching the point at which they were finally able to set up an HLS, the man thanked him profusely for saving his life, though in somewhat over familiar terms. The response was 'that's Sir to you, you c***'. Firmly tongue in cheek, and couldn't possibly have raised his stock any higher.

BTW - our bayonets are not usually sharp. The points are, because it's a stabbing weapon, but a sharp blade is liable to cut into and stick in the ribs of one's adversary, rather than force them apart. Awkward to be left stuck in one chap when there are more of HM's enemies waiting to be offered a bit of Sheffield's cheapest steel.

[Krystal n chips]

Quite amusing to read the huffing and puffing about the Guardsman...personally, I would promote him...however.

Even more amusing to read about what is considered acceptable social clothing...Pavlov would be proud !. But then, standards have also been mentioned and some of you on here may recall, or have been part of, this example of standards.

May ( ish ) 2009 and I was plonked in a hotel at Southsea by an employer for about 3 weeks. The hotel was clearly used by the Gov't as there were a lot of RFA guys transiting through, however, everybody happily mingled together.

Arrive back one night to find two coaches and lobby full of 2.5 / 3 rings in the main, blue suits.

Shrivenham's "less than finest" had arrived it seemed.

Apart from blocking the lobby, there were loud mutterings as to why civilians were being processed before them ! It never, seemingly, occurred to the intellectual elite, that, as they were being checked in, and other guests already were and were simply collecting mail and keys, about 2 mins if that, there was no reason for them to wait and queue and this was how the hotel were processing matters. Common sense in play.

That evening, the bar becomes an extension of the Mess. No intermingling, the bar "assumed" to be for their exclusive use, it was also a dining area, but that to was ignored by the influx. It gets better, or worse.

Sat outside having a beer and they decide to go for a night out to Gunwharf. Pure farce !...a series of groups emerge, all dressed more or less the same and all are duly formed up for...a briefing no less, as to how they will get in the taxi, where they will get out, where they will go.

You stood out like the proverbial and there are plenty of people in the UK who are not disposed to the military.

The crowning glory..breakfast next day. The dining room opened at 07.00, promptly, every day and was run by a very nice lady. There was always a small queue of early risers waiting and general small talk ensued.

Enter our two, brevet wearing, 2.5 ring "heroes"....possibly visually impaired, unlikely, or just plain pig ignorant, highly likely, they sauntered past the queue and entered the dining room...to be ejected a very short time later by said lady....the looks on their faces were, as they say, priceless as she informed them of the fact, that breakfast started at..07.00, not before. They were lingering near the door until an RFA gentleman kindly pointed out, that, "the queue starts here..mate".

There must have been possibly 70-80 people in the group.

As an exercise in PR it was an unmitigated disaster and the mutterings were loud and clear from the rest of the guests once they had left.

Some of you may, as I say, recognise yourselves from this little excursion.

When however, some of you choose to pontificate as to standards, blah, blah, some introspection may prove useful. Albeit unlikely.

[Genstabler]

Stick with Jetblast, Krystal. This is a grown ups forum.

[Two's in]

Grown ups forum - hilarious!

[Krystal n chips]

Stick with Jetblast, Krystal. This is a grown ups forum

Tsk, how remiss of me not to know my place.

The bit at the end however....do you envisage some sort of precedent being set at some point by the luminaries who feel this is their private ante-room ?

JB is open to one and all...it's easy to find on the forum menu as well....in case you wish to venture forth ?

[Stanwell]

.
Just like at the Southsea hotel where you encountered the 'Grownups' eh, KnC?


Harrumph!!

[bugged on the right]

I'm surprised he got away without being invited to do the honourable thing with the Webley. One of the features of the Guards is that the spectacle brings a lot of tourist money into the UK. people have tried to make them smile or react for decades. Unsuccessfully I imagine and if so, not displayed in the world's press. It is the Guard's unique selling point and anybody privileged to join them would know that and wish to be a part of it. This young man has quite simply let the brand down spectacularly and deserves all he got.

[Basil]

K&C,
You do have to rid yourself of those dreadfully heavy chips, old boy ;)

Anyway, re previous 'brown in town'; clearly 'marrón en la ciudad' is OK :ok:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/21/1411328729130_wps_30_Mandatory_Credit_Photo_by.jpg

Seville

[Tankertrashnav]

Nice post, exrivofrigido, a good counter to some of the stupider "chocolate soldier" remarks about the foot guards being made by some on here who don't know what they're talking about.

I always recall Robert Graves in Goodbye to all That when one of his RWF soldiers complained about what he considered to be unnecessary bull while serving at the front. "It's not as if we're in the **** guards, sir". To which Graves replied - "When you can fight as well as the guards I'll slacken up on the bull, but not till then" He also pointed out that the guards tended to have a much lower incidence of trench foot and other debilitating physical ailments which the scruffier regiments were plagued by.

[HTB]

Not too much bothered about the shade of brown for the shoes...but those trousers seem to be a bit short, or pulled up too high;)

Mister B

[Basil]

those trousers seem to be a bit short
I like the shade of the fabric; mine's a bit too yellow; bit more like this little guy > :)
Come to think of it, I may make a small print of that and stick it in my lightweight pocket just for anyone who plays the 'brown in town' card :E

[HTB]

Just looked at the piccy a bit more closely (old recce habit) and there seems to be a midget standing very close behind HRH, on the red carpet too. And what's happened to the rest of Mrs Wales's shadow? Curiouser and curiouser...

Mister B

[Basil]

what's happened to the rest of Mrs Wales's shadow?
Very well spotted!
Just had a closer look at:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/21/1411328729130_wps_30_Mandatory_Credit_Photo_by.jpg
and, apart from a slight line along HRH's left ear, I couldn't see anything.
I'm sure you're correct; something not right there.
Ex Wyton, perchance?


p.s. The little guy's fabric colour is closer to mine but I don't recollect being there :)

[Haraka]

Looks like the couple are standing on a raised dias or podium after probably mounting some steps.
The shadow on the left is of the guy standing behind Prince Charles and he is at a somewhat lower level ( Charles is quite short BTW) with the lens foreshortening the guy standing some way behind Lady Diana looks small.

[gazellemiester]

I think you will find that they are probably stood on a dais of some form. The shadow for the POW is actually from the chap stood very closely(!) behind him.

*beaten to it!!!

[thing]

And what's happened to the rest of Mrs Wales's shadow? Curiouser and curiouser... Perhaps it was midday in the bit she was standing...

[Just This Once...]

I'm no fan of Blair but there is something distasteful in using a faked photo in this way.

[goudie]

something distasteful in using a faked photo in this way.

And posting it. It has no place on this forum IMCO
Not clever, not funny.

[melmothtw]

Completely agree, very distasteful.

[Genstabler]

Offending post removed with my apologies. I had no idea it was a fake.

[Basil]

I'm no fan of Blair but there is something distasteful in using a faked photo in this way.

What? What? Did I miss something?
Which particular one was it? :E