15th September 1940

[CoffmanStarter]

We will remember them ...

http://en.tracesofwar.com/upload/8081080701204122.jpg

[Wander00]

Well posted, Coff.

[Chugalug2]

The turning point in WW2, not only for the UK but arguably for the Nazis and hence Europe. Of all the gross errors made by Hitler, was failing to destroy Fighter Command in 1940 his greatest?

[Bergerie1]

No, attacking Russia was.

[rolling20]

Of all the gross errors made by Hitler, was failing to destroy Fighter Command in 1940 his greatest?

Interesting point. One could argue his biggest mistake was letting the BEF escape across the Channel and not begining the B.o.B sooner. Then there is the delay in opening Barbarossa

[Chugalug2]

Hitler was always going to attack Russia, but if he had first taken the UK out of the war and delayed Barbarossa until spring 1942 might he not then have succeeded?

[dat581]

Operation Sea Lion was never going to happen in 1940 and the Germans knew it. The Royal Navy would have utterly destroyed them if they tried it. The Luftwaffe had enough trouble at the time destroying stationary warships evacuating men from Dunkirk let alone at sea and fighting back. Absolutely no night capability against ships either.

[rolling20]

Perhaps his biggest mistake was declaring war on the U.S. It was 4 days after Pearl Harbour and until then the U.S. was only at war with Japan!

[Chugalug2]

Sea Lion need not have happened, Halifax and the Peace clique might well have sufficed if we were defenceless against day and night aerial bombardment. Removing Churchill and his refusal to settle was what lay behind Rudolf Hess's desperate mission, was it not?

[Wensleydale]

One must also not forget Bomber Command during this period who lost over 700 aircrew in successfully causing the withdrawal of the German invasion fleets from the Channel ports during what is known as "The Battle of the Barges".

[Chugalug2]

Absolutely right, Wensleydale, and I'm sure that the next box on a competent Fuhrer's checklist would have been Bomber Command, having ticked the one marked Fighter Command.

[rolling20]

Something I have never fully understood, was why Bomber/Fighter Command did not go on the offensive and attack on mass the German airfields in France. There were some attacks, but nothing of a major scale.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug, (#6)

Very possibly. Equally, if he'd left us alone after Dunkirk, and turned his full force onto Russia in '40, his second blitzkreig might have been successful as the first and Moscow may have fallen (he got a long way in '41 as it was, before General Winter came to Stalin's aid.). Then he could have dealt with us at his leisure.

We were helpless, quite unable to take any offensive action (the 300,000 who got away from Dunkirk came back with the clothes they stood up in. Some managed to hold on to their rifles (but if you are a weak swimmer, a SMLE weighs about 7lb 8oz and can make all the difference). All our armour and heavy equipment had been left in France. The Navy had its backs to the wall in the Western Approaches (and shipping tonnage was being sunk far quicker than it could be replaced).

Our RAF was always planned as a defensive weapon only (and thank God it was good enough when the time came).

I suppose all Wars are an interlocking series of "What might have happend 'ifs' " . Your supposition is perfectly correct and feasable, but things turned out as they did (and now we can never know any more about the result of other possible courses of action).

We were lucky ! Cheers, Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Thanks for your wise words as ever, Danny. The what if's of WW2 have always intrigued me, none more so than why Rudolf Hess dropped in for tea (or intended to) to discuss the weather with the Duke of Hamilton and his chums.

There has been a tendency to downplay the importance of the victory of the BofB in recent years. I have always felt that it was vital to keeping the UK in the war and hence as a springboard for D-Day and the liberation of Western Europe from Nazi tyranny. I also suspect that it was vital in preventing an ultimate Nazi victory, but that needed a lot of help from the Reich Chancellery of course.

[Danny42C]

rolling20 (#12),

With Fairey "Battles" (and a few Blenheims) ?

Danny.

[Wensleydale]

Bomber Command had tried to attack German forces in daylight during the Norway campaign and suffered very heavy losses resulting in the decision to only use bombers at night (the exception during the French campaign again showed the futility of attacking without numerical superiority). Therefore, when combined with navigation problems of finding targets at night, Bomber Command was restricted to attacks on the channel ports and communications centres (which they usually missed by miles). Mass attacks on German airfields was therefore not an option - especially since we did not have the masses at the time.

[rolling20]

With Fairey "Battles" (and a few Blenheims) ?

Danny.

Obviously you know nothing about Bomber Command then! As of June 1940 there were some 467 bombers available. Aside of Battle and Blenheims, 3 Group had 8 Sqs of Wellingtons, 4 Group 6 Sqs of Whitleys and 5 Group 5 Sqs of Hampdens. Alas don't have the breakdowns of numbers available by type.

[rolling20]

Have to disagree there Wensleydale. Bomber Command were attacking airfields in France in daylight, with negligible results, due to the fact they were using Blenheim’s. One can imagine what kind of disruption would have been caused by a well timed attack at dawn, with medium bombers with fighter cover. To quote from an official source.'By 21 September some 214 barges had been sunk or damaged amounting to nearly 10% of the total number gathered for the invasion, although at a punishing cost. On several occasions attacking formations suffered 100% casualties, and between them, Bomber and Coastal Commands would lose nearly 1,000 aircrew.'
The barge campaign was one of great sacrifice, yet its impact was limited.

[Wensleydale]

So in June 1940, with the prospect of a German invasion fleet crossing the Channel, Bomber Command would launch 467 bombers in daylight attacks on heavily defended German airfields using the same tactics that had completely destroyed the AASF during the previous month? Don't think so.


You will also find that the Germans were very short of invasion barges and so withdrew them from the Channel Ports to preserve their numbers. They would have to be brought forward again to launch Sealion which would have been the advance warning of invasion.


Also do not forget that the Luftwaffe tried to destroy the RAF's airfields with many more medium bombers than the RAF possessed at the time and failed. As was proved many times during the early war period, it was the threat of a bomber force that prevailed - not their actual use. (I do not include the tactical use of bomber aircraft within this as the Luftwaffe demonstrated during Blitzkreig).

[Danny42C]

dat581 (#7)

Your:

"Operation Sea Lion was never going to happen in 1940 and the Germans knew it". Hitler didn't know it at the start - that came later !

"The Royal Navy would have utterly destroyed them if they tried it". Malaya ('41) showed what happens to even capital ships which put themselves in range of a land (or sea) enemy with air superiority.

"The Luftwaffe had enough trouble at the time destroying stationary warships evacuating men from Dunkirk let alone at sea and fighting back". Many believed that Hitler let them escape, reasoning that Britain would surrender soon anyway, and meanwhile he couldn't be bothered feeding and housing this lot.

"Absolutely no night capability against ships either". Taranto ?

Danny

[Chugalug2]

rolling20, day bombing of the Luftwaffe's airfields in Northern France (and they were mainly just that, fields) would have resulted in far greater losses of our aircraft (both fighters and bombers) than theirs. That was the lesson so bitterly learnt in France and Norway previously (as Wensleydale posted already). The BoB was a battle of attrition, as Dowding had already made clear when he insisted that Fighter Command be retained in the UK to fight in its own skies for Air Supremacy. It would have lost that fight if it had fought in the Luftwaffe's skies.

As to the bombers that might have been used, those mentioned by Danny were those that had been sent with the BEF to strike tactical targets by day and suffered massive losses as a result. I suspect that was his rueful point. Those that you listed were already earmarked for the night strategic bombing offensive and were the forerunners of the later heavies that were to have such a devastating effect on the German war effort, but that is yet another controversy of course...

[rolling20]

AASF was mainly attacking troop columns at low level, where flak was murderous and had no fighter cover. When they attacked at medium/high level losses were in part no where near as bad. (aside of returning to the Meuse bridges after a early successful attack) Some airfields were concrete Chugalug2 , Amiens was twice attacked with no apparent success. As for the night offensive, we had to use whatever we had however we could , thus Wimpeys, Whitleys and Hampdens being used on the barges. The debate will go on, I have said my bit and bid you good day gentlemen!

I shall raise a glass to all who perished in the BoB this evening.

[Wensleydale]

May I just add that the Hampdens of 5 Group had the task of shipping attack throughout the early war years and were being held for attacks on the German Fleet. Attacks on invasion barges was part of their primary role! They subsequently prioritised on mine laying and attacks on the German Capital ships in ports such as Brest. (It was not their fault that most bombs bounced off the armoured decks of the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen when they were lucky enough to score hits).

[air pig]

Like Rolling20, I too will be raising a glass in memory tonight.

Other factors in this debate are missing, ACM Dowding as AOCinC of Fighter Command had numerous things to his advantage, by his foresight he developed an air defence system that exists to this day, was in receipt of ULTRA information, a privilege accorded to few very senior commanders and was able to have a subordinate commander in the shape of AVM Keith Park who was able to prosecute the battle. Radar allowed for aircraft to be ground based so standing patrols fatiguing aircrew were not required. The range of the ME 109 did not allow them to have enough time over the combat area to protect their bombers when north of London and their loss of pilots when over the UK.

Fighter sweeps over France during the Battle would have caused costly losses to both pilots and aircraft which at the time would not have allowed replacement and led to a draining of Fighter Command's strength, Dowding was right to refuse to deploy any more aircraft beyond the AASF to France before and during Dunkirk as they too would have been lost.

The Luftwaffe, had the problems of cross channel flights, as mentioned relatively short combat range of its fighters, loss of pilots as bombers usually at the start had two rated pilots in each crew and lastly political interference. After the Luftwaffe bombed London (Croydon) accidentally RAF bombed Berlin leading Hitler to order a change in bombing from tactical against radar stations and airfields and onto strategic, against the cities. Their advantage was numbers but not necessarily the correct aircraft ME 110 and JU 87 comes to mind, useful against an inadequate air defence system, many squadron commanders had had combat experience in the Spanish Civil War, Molders and Galland to name two.

Apart from the pilots I will raise a glass in memory of Sir Hugh Dowding, the man who fought and won the most significant battle this country has faced since the Battle of Hastings in terms of invasion threat. A man forgotten by most, who was cr***d on by political manoeuvrings and machinations of the people above him in the RAF.

AVM Park went to to command the air defence of Malta, and we know how that battle turned , same result as the Battle of Britain, showed the system worked.

From what I have read and seen of her, maybe also raise a glass as well to Air Commodore Joan Hopkins, a modern day AVM Park.

[Bergerie1]

Many good posts. And I will raise a glass to AVM Keith Park, another forgotten man.

[ShotOne]

"Operation Sea Lion was never going to happen..." It was never Hitler's preferred solution, which was neutrality on our part to allow them to deal with their real enemy, Communist Russia. Even a walkover of an invasion would have tied up large numbers of troops needed in the East.

[air pig]

ShotOne:

Your assertion is totally correct, Hitler had to go into the Balkans, North Africa and Greece in 1941 to dig Mussolini out of the deep c**p, he'd got himself into. This delayed Barbarossa until the late spring early summer of 1941. Barbarossa failed for many reasons: started too late, should have waited until 1942, too many units relying on horse drawn transport and very long supply chain with few railways for support, but that is a whole other discussion.

Apart from Hitler, Admiral Raeder of the Kriegsmarine was also uncomfortable as he could not be sure of naval superiority in the English Channel and its approaches, and I suspect did not believe Goring, that the Luftwaffe could control the skies, but politically he could not express his doubt. The OKW did not think they had enough invasion barges either.

Remember one part of the British Isles was invaded and occupied, namely the Channel Isles, who were not liberated until after the 8th of May 1945. A dark period of history, of what went on during that time. Read Tom Freeman Keel's book, Alderney to Auschwitz, very illuminating.

[Red Line Entry]

Clearly very subjective issue, but IMO, if we had lost to an invasion (or surrendered), then Hitler would still have been defeated by the Russia. However, the US would then have had no platform to establish a western front and all of Europe could have ended up under Stalin's thumb, rather than just half of it.

The Cold War would have been very different if the USA had remained the only free democracy!

(Edited to add: I know I'm ignoring Canada, Australia, NZ and others, but you get my point!)

[Hipper]

Air pig - 'Other factors in this debate are missing, ACM Dowding as AOCinC of Fighter Command had numerous things to his advantage, by his foresight he developed an air defence system that exists to this day, was in receipt of ULTRA information, a privilege accorded to few very senior commanders...'


Did the Enigma decodes have an input in the Battle of Britain?


Hinsley et al in 'British Intelligence in the Second World War' suggests that although British intelligence (all of it) was improving this was not a major factor in the Battle of Britain. It seems up to then mostly strategic intelligence was being derived. Hinsley credits 'the tenacity of British resistance' to the GAF's failure.


Also as Hinsley points out, this was the first major defeat Germany had suffered and as such represents a turning point in the war.


I agree it is difficult to know what would have happened had we lost the BoB but it surely would have affected the will to continue. Air superiority is not everything as the Normandy landings showed but it's a big help.

[langleybaston]

Remembering, including the humble but important role of the barrage balloon boys of Fighter Command, my father among them.

[air pig]

Hipper: Totally appreciate your post but,

Did the Enigma decodes have an input in the Battle of Britain?


Hinsley et al in 'British Intelligence in the Second World War' suggests that although British intelligence (all of it) was improving this was not a major factor in the Battle of Britain. It seems up to then mostly strategic intelligence was being derived. Hinsley credits 'the tenacity of British resistance' to the GAF's failure.


Just had a look at the river dealers, he wrote the book in 1979, and it was part of a 5 volume set, and whilst he may have had access to the files, some as well well know may have been 'weeded' or not declassified. therefore his history maybe incomplete. When you consider so much was lost in 1945 when Bletchley Park was disbanded.

The RAF may not have declassified many of its own records, we just do not know. We do know that R V Jones had a degree of access to Enigma product and intelligence, also PoW interrogation via Squadron Leader Felkin, in particular looking for Knickebein.

[Hipper]

Truth is I don't know much about the RAF and Enigma but I did do some research on the naval war and as far as I could tell practically all, if not all, the decrypts are at The National Archives (in ADM223).


In the naval war Enigma started to become operationally useful around May 1941 at the time of the loss of the Bismarck and became more and more useful as the war progressed.


Hinsley says in the book (I have four volumes) that they were given unrestricted access to all British intelligence records in all archives.


It's interesting reading Roskill (Royal Navy in WW2) published before these revelations and he just refers to 'special intelligence'.

[brickhistory]

What if's aside, at the time, "The Few" bore the brunt of defending Britain in what was thought a fight to the death. Pretty serious stuff.

Well done and thank you.

[air pig]

Hipper:

I suspect but cannot prove that in 1940 that the direction of ULTRA decrypts were more towards naval and air intelligence. R V Jones wrote extensively in his book about the results of the Oslo Report, which revealed information about blind bombing and the JU 88. As we both know intelligence is piecing together small items to produce a picture, it's how commanders look at and interpret that picture, that is the problem. Montgomery and Arnham comes to mind, but I digress.

In effect the RAF fought a brave and successful battle, against a resourceful well trained opponent, and as always in war, you win by making less errors than your enemy, making you own luck and by being a student of Sun Tzu.

Brickhistory: a glass of good red raised in salute this evening along with a viewing of the Battle of Britain. BEagle, watch you blood pressure.

[Archimedes]

Don't forget that Harry Hinsley didn't have to rely on records entirely - his memory of what he got up to at Bletchley helped to inform his writing somewhat... (as did the input from former colleagues).


IIRC, there was a slight element of self-censorship in some parts of the work to avoid revealing matters which still had a degree of currency and which were deemed sensitive (Gordon Welchman lost his US security clearance [he moved there in the late 40s and became a US citizen] after writing his memoir of Hut Six in 1982).


The history may be incomplete, but not quite for the reasons one might assume...

[MAINJAFAD]

Bomber Command did attack German airfields located in Holland and Denmark during August 1940. Two attacks were of note, in one a RAF squadron managed to destroy 9 He-111s on the ground with no losses, on the other almost a complete Blenheim squadron was wiped out before they got to the target (the one aircraft to get back aborted en route and the pilot was courts marshaled). Attacking the German Airfields in the Pas de Calais was a non starter. There were a lot of them, defended by a large amount of light flak and a large number of Bf-109s, of which 20% were held back for base defence at any one time as a result of the Bomber Command efforts, which did in a small part reduce to 109 threat to Fighter Command.

Fighter Command did do Fighter Sweeps over France in 1941/2 while Leigh Mallory was in charge of 11 group with big wing tactics and the net result was a German victory. Park or Saul would not have made that mistake.

[air pig]

Leigh Mallory, had the ear of Portal and was I believe involved in the higher machinations of the RAF, leading to Dowding being relieved of command after the BoB.

[Lonewolf_50]

Ten years ago today, I was invited to participate in an event for 15 September by an RAF friend who was at one time a Tornado pilot.

I attended. We stood in formation, a bunch of us from a variety of nations, but of course this was a RAF show put on by folks who know how to do such things, and a very moving ceremony ensued. It included a fly past by Tornadoes, which went well.

Afterwards were a few casual drinks together as we all reaffirmed the brotherhood of military airmen.

It was in a deployed location. It was a good thing. It is one of my few fond memories of that deployed period. In honored brave men flying and defending the land that they love.

Salutes

[GeeRam]

Equally, if he'd left us alone after Dunkirk, and turned his full force onto Russia in '40, his second blitzkreig might have been successful as the first and Moscow may have fallen (he got a long way in '41 as it was, before General Winter came to Stalin's aid.). Then he could have dealt with us at his leisure.

The Germans didn't finalise their plans for the invasion of the Soviet Union until end of July '40 with an intended start date of May '41, so I doubt they were in a position to 'go east' after Dunkirk.
Not going as planned in May '41 was a mistake on their part, as was grossly underestimating the strength in depth of the Soviet forces, and then Hitler overruling his General's in ordering a large proportion of Army Group Centre's units north and south to assist Army Group's North and South at Lennigrad and Kiev stalling the drive to Moscow until late autumn and too close a proximity to the onset of winter.

[Brewster Buffalo]

and then came the night blitz.

I wonder if any thought was given to intruder operations over the Luftwaffe bomber bases. Probably wouldn't have stopped the attacks but might have disrupted them.

[ValMORNA]

Quoting Hipper ; Did the Enigma decodes have an input in the Battle of Britain?

I was told, much later, by an RAF ground wireless intercept operator, that they listened to various frequencies used by the Luftwaffe in France. The aircraft there, prior to a mission, tuned and checked their radios which, while brief activity, could give indications of the numbers of aircraft involved, and by the use of D/F, the airfields where the activity was taking place. It may not have been much use in the context of Enigma, but it was useful in giving warning of the numbers of aircraft which could be expected, and given good intelligence, the units involved.

[ShotOne]

In this context, Enigma was less useful to us than the basic fact that the Germans just weren't very good at keeping secrets! Even the name Knickebein was a giveaway since it was the name of a magic raven in a German folk tale which always knew its way home. When the torn-up notebook of a shot-down Luftwaffe nav was discovered, it had the word Knickebein and a series of numbers. A well-read investigator made the connection, prompting a closer look at the aircraft's Lorenz receiver and revealing to us the workings of their then top-secret night bombing system.

[Stendec5]

A German invasion attempt in mid-September 1940 would have been (for the Germans) a bloodbath. They would have been slaughtered.
As one of their more capable leaders, Erhard Milch, noted. The only time it could have realistically been carried-off was in JUNE 1940, in the immediate aftermath of Dunkirk. What Churchill himself called "That very dangerous hour."
Using paratroops, seizing airheads (Hawkinge, Lympne??) then advancing on Dover/Felixtowe to secure ports then battling across what supplies they could by sea. They might, just might, have pulled it off. As the sass would say "Who Dares Wins."
It sounds fanciful. But remember at THAT moment in history, due mainly to the appeasement and idiocy of the pre-war years, and despite Winston's best efforts towards realism, AND after Dunkirk, we simply didn't have the means to fight a prolonged battle. The cupboard was bare. (Sound familiar, eh Mr Cameron?)
Of course Hitler was too busy humiliating the French at Compiegne and sightseeing around Paris...the moment passed.

[PPRuNe Pop]

My quick nip in on this one is that both Dowding and Park were aware, depending on the size of the force, knew a very great degree of actuality as the Luftwaffe took to the skies. In the book by F W Winterbotham, The Ultra Secret, he was the first to know what was happening in the Pa de Calais and other areas and then had a duty to immediately inform Churchill and then - to Dowding and then Park. It is true to say that Enigma, or Ultra, as Churchill called it, turned out to be factually vital.

[Chugalug2]

The real danger to the UK in 1940 was not of a German invasion from without, but of the peace makers from within. If Fighter Command had lost the Battle of Britain and the Luftwaffe had been allowed to go about its business in our skies by day as well as by night then that would have been the moment for them to show their hands. As it was they remained in the shadows until that last chance saloon in May 1941 at Dungavel House, home of the 14th Duke of Hamilton, Air Commodore Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, who was on duty that night at RAF Turnhouse with responsibility for Scotland's air defence. The lights went on at the Dungavel Airstrip but then 15 minutes later went out again. The party slunk back into the shadows, and Churchill was able to enjoy watching a screening of the Marx Brothers at Downing Street...

[air pig]

Shot One:

The well read investigator was Dr R V Jones of Air ministry scientific intelligence who with Squadron Leader Denys Felkin an RAF intelligence officer and interrogator of Luftwaffe PoWs, including a little serupticious 'bugging' found out about Knickebein (Crooked Leg) and this was a development of the Lorentz system, which the RAF also had from pre war. X and Y Garet wree developed during this time as more sophisticated blind bombing systems. Oboe or Gee in Bomber Command worked much the same way

Stendec5:

Churchill was it would appear ready in the event of invasion to release chemical weapons to the RAF using Mustard gas. If dropped on the invading fleet even at sea would have caused mass causalities. look up the Bari Incident in Italy in 1943/4 for its devastating effectiveness even when spread on the sea.

Brewster Buffalo:

Fighter version of the Blenheim, I think two squadrons 23 and 25 belonging to fighter command had converted to the home defence night fighter operations along with the Boulton PaulDefiant, without AI Radar, only later in 1940 early 41 did the Beaufighter become operational. Only when the Mosquito night fighter come into service did Fighter Command take to operating over German airfields, during the night bomber offensive.

[Always a Sapper]

Considering the way that Stalin & the NKVD were treating the average Russian, if Hitler had gone into Russia in the manner of a 'liberator of the people' and done a decent hearts and minds job on the locals instead of shipping them to the nearest camp while going flat out for Moscow and taking Stalin out and then taking the Oil Fields. I think it's quite likely he could have taken Russia, key being giving the locals a better option than Stalin.

[air pig]

AAS:

Fortunately in this respect the German security forces ideologically were not much different from Stalin and his NKVD, referring to them as untermensch, so a hearts and minds campaign was not an option. Liquidation of communists, intelligentsia and those of the Jewish faith was the order of the day by Einsatzkommando's, who were in some places assisted by the local population. This is though getting away from the original start of the thread.

Glass of good red raised at the end of the Battle of Britain film, in memory of those who died in defence of the UK, also a thought to those of the Luftwaffe who also fell during the battle.

[ShotOne]

According to reports at the time, when Stalin's NKVD goons met those of Hitlers Gestapo at Brest Litovsk shortly after their respective bosses signed their non-aggression pact, they all got on famously.

[air pig]

ShotOne;

Fascism and communism are bothers in arms, look at a European political institution, they work on a horseshoe shaped parliament, so both ends almost touch, were as in the UK we have an adversarial rather than a consensus Parliament. Both sides face each other, behind the red line on the floor (two sword lengths apart). Hitler's army had trained for many years before WW2 in Russia developing panzer and aerial warfare far away from western eyes, and only after the division of Poland in 1939/40 and the treaty signed between Molotov and von Ribbintrop, did both sides start to distrust each other. Only Stalin's decapitation of the Soviet General Staff allowed Hitler's early victories.

[Lookleft]

IMHO the important victory from the BoB were the political ones. The USA realised they had to support Britain as it now obvious it had the capability to inflict a defeat on the Germans and Britain was not going to surrender. It entrenched the leadership of Churchill who had the fighting spirit the Americans admired. Finally it silenced for the duration of the war any further attempts at appeasement or accommodation of Hitler's demands.

""They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them." Lest We Forget

[Roadster280]

Congrats Gents, I hope there are some rather worse for wear this evening, and a good few pianos burnt out.

Beer raised here.

[S'land]

One not only raised a glass to memories of the RAF participants (Commanders, Pilots and Ground and Support Crew), but also played the video of BoB. As I bought the DVD here I can choose English, which my neigbours do not understand, or German, which they do, as the language. I chose German this year - it annoys the hell out of the neighbours when I do that.

[54Phan]

Yes, several Spitfire Ales were consumed in a toast to "The Few" last night and Cine Chez Montreuil showed "The Battle Of Britain".

[rolling20]

Just as an aside, my maternal grandmother , her sister and my grandmothers 3 year old daughter ( my aunt) were in the garden during the Battle, waving at a British Fighter, except it wasn't British. The 109 (as it turned out) swooped down and fired at them!

[pzu]

Thornaby doesn't have a lot going for it, but they can still get some things right :D

Thornaby Battle Of Britain Remembrance Service, 2014 | Picture Stockton Archive (http://picturestocktonarchive.wordpress.com/2014/09/16/thornaby-battle-of-britain-remembrance-service-2014/)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Chugalug2]

Air Pig:-
Brewster Buffalo:

Fighter version of the Blenheim,

Finally got it on the third pass. Had me going a bit though!

[air pig]

Chugs:

Can't forget the Gloster Gladiator's based at St Eval and the Defiant's at Kirton in Lindsay. Ok Blenheim fighter version was pushing it a bit.

[MAINJAFAD]

Air pig

RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.

[air pig]

MAINJAFAD:

Air pig

RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.

I'm surprised the ops did not start earlier in particular as Fighter Command daylight operations started in 1941 over France. I'd forgotten about the Beaufighter ops using Serrate was it not Bob Braham one of the main operators in this area, did not know about the other units. Single seat night ops, very dangerous ops flown by very brave men. Boston/Havoc ops then looked to have started following the USA's entry to the war when the aircraft were sent over under lease lend.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I'm surprised the ops did not start earlier in particular as Fighter Command daylight operationsI think the RAF missed an opportunity here especially if all the invasion barges had gone so those didn't need bombing. IIRC the Luftwaffe carried out limited intruder operations againt the bomber fleets over the UK with some success though of course their aircraft were fitted with radar.

[rolling20]

IIRC The Luftwaffes most successful night for Intruder ops was March 3/4 1945,Operation Gisela. Some 20 odd heavies were shot down over the Uk. The Luftwaffe lost a similar amount. German intruder ops had been a feature of the campaign throughout the war in varying degrees. By the wars end with Aerial superiority lost, they made one last effort. Hitler decreed that only bombers brought down over Germany were of value to the war effort, for propaganda purposes etc. Another one of his many mistakes.

[Wensleydale]

"I think the RAF missed an opportunity here especially if all the invasion barges had gone so those didn't need bombing. IIRC the Luftwaffe carried out limited intruder operations againt the bomber fleets over the UK with some success though of course their aircraft were fitted with radar."




If I may correct a couple of factual errors?


Although the barges had left, the RAF were kept busy mining the ports and coastal sea route to prevent not only the Germans moving in another invasion fleet but also to counter the U-boat threat. Secondly, the German intruder operations were not that successful in kills although they proved a considerable nuisance. In fact, German intruder losses were about the same as RAF losses (quite a few were lost in transit). Hitler had forbidden radar equipped intruder aircraft from operating over allied territory to stop secrets falling into allied hands - and he soon stopped intruder operations totally. Despite Kammhuber stating that "if he wanted to kill wasps then he would swat them en-masse in their lair", Hitler wanted the German people to see burning bombers on their own soil to show that Germany was defending against the bomber offensive. The Germans were also very short of fuel - especially after the invasion of Russia and Hitler considered the transit to UK by night fighters as a waste of petrol. After that, there were only limited non-radar equipped small offensives later in the war - principally by Me-210 aircraft. The final German night-fighter offensive was at the end of the war when Hitler made a final gamble and unleashed his radar night-fighters over the North Sea after the returning bomber stream with Operation Gazelle. Many tens of bombers fell victim although a good few night fighters were also lost.

[CoffmanStarter]

I suspect the 1969 Film has been aired over the last week by some ... so I thought this might be of interest.

Documentary examining the making of the 1969 film The Battle of Britain.

Although I personally think the opening piece outside the American Embassy was a bit unnecessary.

The Making of The Battle of Britain Film - YouTube

Duration 47:55