The Role of an Observer, RN

[1mag1n3]

First of all, let me apologise if this has been answered before. I did have a search however came across threads that were rather dated.

To cut to the chase, I have applied to the Royal Navy as a pilot, and throughout the application process I have always reiterated how I wanted to be a pilot, not an observer. I have successfully completed the whole process, including the FATs for both pilot and observer, and AIB with a competitive score.

Without going into too much detail, I have received a letter since completing the process offering me the role of observer. I was told my score was higher for observer than for pilot, and this is why I was offered one and not the other. I have asked to be reconsidered for selection for February. Being offered observer again is likely.

I was hoping some of those on here with experience would be able to potentially 'sell' the role?

I have done plenty of research into the role itself, however hearing first hand experiences would benefit me greatly. From what I have read I would be more than happy to accept observer.

Thanks in advance.

[switch_on_lofty]

Hi mate,

Congrats on being offered a place. Have you been on a Potential Officer Candidate Course (Aircrew)? If not this will give you 2-3 days of boring observer dits about how amazing they are. You can arrange them through your ACLO or potentially through the AIB if you tell them that you need a bit more of an idea of what you are signing up for.
If you're still none the wiser then PM me your mobile no. and I'll give you a call, can't write it all here as I'm not sure exactly what you want.
I'm a Lynx Pilot, not sure if there are many Obbies here, might be some lurkers.

[alfred_the_great]

Observers are what turn a machine into a fighting aircraft.

[orca]

I took a similar line at AIB and fortunately didn't end up in your situation. However the two guys in my entry who did accept the offer as O (when they wanted and had passed P) both left the RN relatively early. The RN also promised a great lad in the entry ahead of me P but only if he went fish head first. They didn't keep their promise. He left and rejoined as P.

You know what the answer is. Call them and say that you are not interested. They'll come round.

If pushed for something profound tell them that with high O scores and a pass at pilot you are perfect for F-35. Good luck, don't kill off your dream before it starts.

[Pheasant]

1mag1n3,

Many moons ago I was in your position and ended up accepting O. For a while I regretted my decision - the O course is hard! However, I stuck with it and had a fantastic time and a good career. The best decision I made was to get out of the back of a SeaKing and into the front of a Lynx. The three good points about this were I could see where I was going, 300% less bullsh*t from the pilot and 60% closer to real life (London).

The most important thing is your desire to be in the RN. If this desire is weak then don't bother with either P or O!

[1mag1n3]

Thanks for the replies so far. It is much appreciated.

My desire to join the Royal Navy is high, the military & aircrew lifestyle really does appeal to me. As well as this so does the sport, travel etc. I could go on, but to cut it short this is what I have wanted to do for a long time.

Pheasant, I do have to say the role in the front of a Lynx hugely appeals to me as an O. How does the streaming work for this? Is it the same kind of idea as pilot, where it is down to ability?

switch_on_lofty, I have not been on a POAC course as I was on the UAS for three years, so I knew a relative amount of what the pilot does. It may certainly be worth it for the role of O though, I will bear that in mind. I will PM you anyway, as I think it would be worth the chat.

[AutoBit]

This question comes up a few times and you'll get lots of different answers. Whilst Pheasant is right in the sense that the most important aspect of your AIB is your desire to join the RN, there's no point even starting if deep down you're not doing the job you truely want to do.

I have plenty of friends who are O. They love the job and they're damn good at it. However for me it was always very straight forward. I wanted to be a pilot and, whilst taking nothing away from the skill required to be an observer, it was never something I wanted to do. So you need to ask yourself what it is you really want to be. If you're happy being an observer then good luck to you, you'll have a blast. But if deep down its pilot that you want I would echo orca and say stick to your guns.

[Case One]

Lots of good responses here and I sympathise with you're predicament. I too scored higher for O than P but I left them in no doubt as to my view and got what I wanted.

In your case, if you want to fly and can only see yourself eventually as an instructor or airline pilot and you're young enough, then decline their offer and reapply.

If you want to fight, stay in warfare and work your way up the navy career ladder, then don't waste time, go Observer.

Yes I know a small and lucky few may do both on the F-35, but planning your career in 2014 on that basis is in my view unrealistic.

Edited to add: The life of an aircrew naval officer is a good one, but, as ex-UAS myself I can tell you there is a BS factor and impact on family life that UAS will not have prepared you for. The RN is quite different to the RAF (I'm not saying better or worse just different). Talk to as many guys as possible about what they're doing when they're not flying and try to get a shipboard visit.

Best of luck.

[fatobs]

I was an observer for 16 years, ASW / SAR, had a whale of a time, the journey to the frontline was hard and the course difficult, but once there it was worthwhile.

That said I am now an airline captain, wonder if that says something......

My advice, if you desperately want pilot stick to your guns, I would have thought time on the UAS would stand in your favour. if the RN won't shift go on a POAC and ask the guys what they think, then make up your mind

[6Z3]

I remember many years ago the RN employed a trick cyclist to conduct a study into how to make the brick-thrower more appealing to prospective FAA aviators. He spent much of his time with us on 737 NAS at Portland. One interesting statistic he came up with was that of the 7000 Observers that he questionaired, just 22 of them were first choice observers!

In my day the application for aircrew asked the direct question would you accept Observer if unsuccessful for pilot. If you want to be a pilot, the answer is clearly no.

That is not to berate the role of the observer, quite the opposite. In RN career terms an Observer, or Airborne Principle Warfare Officer is far better equipped to climb higher than a mere bus driver that we pilots were. good luck.

[Pheasant]

Pheasant, I do have to say the role in the front of a Lynx hugely appeals to me as an O. How does the streaming work for this? Is it the same kind of idea as pilot, where it is down to ability?

I am a bit out of date but I suspect not a lot has changed in principle. The demands on overall ability to succeed in the training for Lynx/Wildcat are higher than for Merlin thus, in theory, those with stronger airmanship in the Grob and Avenger phase should point towards Lynx. The reason is that the lynx O is in the cockpit sharing the Airmanship responsibilities with the P. But I am sure Merlin lookers will offer a contrary view!

[Lordflasheart]

If you have been offered a Commission in the Royal Navy for whatever specialisation, you have done exceptionally well and this chance is unlikely to repeat itself. All RN Officers (with a few exceptions) do the standard year's basic training at Dartmouth. The course is gruelling and you are expected to be physically fit. Specialisation training comes after that.

I'm not clear on how long one currently has to 'sign up' for, nor on the process for getting a 'permanent commission' but many Lookers rise to high office in the RN, even above ship command. The Admiral (Flag Officer Sea Training) handing out pilots' wings recently, is a Looker. The current head of the Fleet Air Arm is a Looker.

I'm concerned you might be thinking too much. It doesn't do for the stick-monkey to think too much. He needs his brains to understand what his Looker is telling him.

LFH

[SeaKingDriver]

All good comments here. As has been stated, decide why it is you're joining. If you want to fly the aircraft, hold out and say no. Offering Observer first is a trick they were pulling back when I joined.

Again to reiterate what has been said above, this is not a put down to the Obs at all. The RN generally has more trouble recruiting Obs as less is understood about the role, but they do 'fight' the aircraft. The actual role changes depending on your aircraft type.

I would say your chances of promotion are better as an Observer as generally they are involved in the warfighting part more, and therefore have better transferable skills to become PWOs or more pure bred Warfare Officers.

I would talk to the guys doing the job as the careers offices generally don't have the kind of in depth info that you require.

The other thing to bear in mind are training times and return of service. RoS is 6 years from completion of training for both specialisations. However training for a pilot is going to be in the region of 5 years from starting Dartmouth. For an Observer, potentially only 2 1/2 years.

Bit scattergun, but hope it helps.

Good luck

SKDriver

[Tlam999]

1mag1n3

I'm an ex looker, and as a pervious post pointed out quite correctly 99% of us were in your shoes at one point or another. I can only think of 2 Obs I ever worked with who's first choice was Obs and not P.

As a 14 year old I carried out my school work experience at a local RAF base, and I remember a Pilot warning me never accept Nav as I'd "always be sitting behind the guy who's job I always wanted". So after getting FAT results of strong Obs/borderline P his words were ringing loud in my ears…

I decided that the chance of flying in the FAA was the most important thing for me and plumped for Obs, mentally preparing myself for the dreaded envy that may come along… it never did.

I can't speak for the RAF, but the profiles and aircraft types of the FAA mean that airborne it really is a team effort. Both parties have a great deal of "crossover" in their roles, both knowing in the same detail their aircraft, tactics and aviation-related topics (met, PofF, ATC etc.). Another point not made here (which please correct me if I'm out of date) is that the Obs can and will act as Aircraft Commander in the RN, whereas this role falls to the pilot in the RAF… "no stick no vote" is not a principle adhered to in the RN.

My biggest concern was of feeling like a 2nd class citizen. This never happened (except in air shows, where the ladies looked at you like you had 2 heads when you said you weren't a pilot!). The posters are quite correct in their assertion that promotion up the ranks is smoother for Obs too. From very early on (about the age of 24 for a Grad entry) you'll be undertaking a similar level of responsibility and involvement in war-fighting that a fish-head will not achieve until he/she is a PWO… normally at the age of 32.

Whilst I echo the comments here about following your dream, please don't throw away the chance of flying in a uniquely challenging and exclusive organisation such as the FAA based on what you'll eventually come to realise is quite a narrow principle of wanting to be a Pilot. 'Cos once you get front line and realise that you're a Naval Officer first, aviator 2nd, you'll realise how small the differences are between the roles; at times 90% of my workload was Navy-related, 10% flying! Which seat you jump into on those precious excursions out of the office really were moot point!

Finally, yes the training is challenging (I'm a former A2 Obs instructor so have seen it from both sides of the process). But please don't be put off by this - you will be immersed in training and it will become your life for a couple or 3 years. You will have nothing else to worry your tired mind. The training is there for a purpose and will stand you in very good stead for the remainder of your flying career and beyond.

I'd like to meet the chap I spoke to when I was 14 and thank him for his concern. But 25 years on I'd like to let him know that I found somewhere where that culture certainly did not exist.

Feel free to PM if I can help further.

Tlam

[Wrathmonk]

I remember a Pilot warning me never accept Nav as I'd "always be sitting behind the guy who's job I always wanted...."no stick no vote"

So you met BEagle then....;)

[Alister101]

Congrats, well done for passing your AIB.
I knew a guy in your position. He was in the URNU and passed for observer. His heart was set on pilot and he re-applied. When the AIB came around he got offered warfare, no flying trade was offered to him. I've also known a great candidate for pilot, won flying scholarships etc and he got accepted for observer instead of pilot ,and he loves it.

I've met frontline Lynx and Merlin Observers who absolutely love their job. But I've also met a Lynx observer who was in the right place and right time to switch over to pilot.
It's your call. Everyone who does it, says they love it. But if you go in and it's not where your heart is then you'll be distracted from goal number 1. Getting your wings. This that being said, remember candidate number 1 as previously mentioned.

Good luck.

[tangoe]

To make a correct assessment and therefore decision you need to get yourself on an acquaint course down at Culdrose! Get youself in a pinger or bagger and really understand the difference between front and back.

My money would be with the baggers or 849 as they offer best of both worlds, use to anyway. Not because they do a more exciting or important job but because 849 used to only fly with 3 crew, 1 P and 2 O's as they were so hideously over weight before fuel. That meant the O's had to be proficient at many of the startup/shut down procedures and even flying left hand seat. Had to do a fair amount of sim time too!

Therefore if you get yourself on an 849 flight you will likely get lhs time, listenning to a few radios, fuel checks every 20 and flying around picking your nose for 4 hours wondering which bar to go to or how to spend your weekend whilst being distracted by the O's providing early warning, real fighter control to the point where you get your cap 1/2 mile behind in a 30 degree fox 3 cone in all conditions, if you have any cap to play with that is, surface search, OTHT over horizon targetting, ECM and more. Either that or look at what 854 have just finished doing in Afghanistania!
Pilot flies a barrier on station and used to have the exciting task of getting from 10k to 10, feet that is and in shortest time possible in order to keep a bandit on the screen moving at 14 miles a minute or more. Not to be confused with looking for IEDs which dont tend to move that quickly.

With search water 2 maybe thats not needed but down the back you are an airborne tactical airwarfare controller and often the only voice on the net in harms way. As others have said, if you are looking for naval career outside of flying then O gives you more options. But I served with P's who have recently gone on to command 23's so.. both types are equally as important and after all the bull and banter as respected given the trouble it takes to get where they are. Pilots usually spout off a bit more and use their hands when talking but as others have also said THE MOST important thing to remember is that you are Naval officer first and foremost, a Jack of all trades and master of your own!

You'll be trained to drive any type of boat (note aircrew call all naval vessels boats, whether they are a sub or not, to annoy fish heads) from dingy, to whaler to frigate. Command a shore party, a plattoon of marines. Escape and evasion, survival techniques, firefighting, first aid, peace keeping, nav at sea, watch keeping, small arms, to drill as well as the RAF, drink more than them and beat them at cricket, my intake anyway .-)

Get youself on a POAC asap and if your liason officer doesnt offer one use your initiative! You passed AIB therefore someone has deemed you have one. Well done!

[ALTAM]

I spent 8 years in the RN and 21 in the RAN as an Observer and had a great time doing very interesting things. These days working with equipment that actually works will make it even more interesting. Whether pilots or observers have a more worthwhile career is a difficult question. I always thought that nights in the hover was very boring for the pilots up front whilst we got on with the job down the back. But it's horses for courses at the end of the day. In any case I always thought that we had a better time than the others who joined the General Service and had to put up with being shouted at, being treated like **** and keeping watches on the bridge before they even started their training.

The bottom line is whether you want to be in the Navy and whether you want to fly are the main issue for you. If the answer to this is yes, then take the offer. If you have your heart set on being a pilot you will need to consider whether to take the risk of being rejected and not having a position in the Navy at all.

Anyway best of luck.

[1mag1n3]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped greatly with my thought process!

I initially thought it would be a compromise to have been offered O, but if it comes to being offered it again, I would take it with my head held high.

It's almost easy to get carried away in these situations and forget the context. If someone had said to me 18 months ago that I would be in the position I am now, I would have been absolutely elated.

Providing that I do get another offer - I genuinely am excited for what the future holds - it will certainly trump the desk job I currently hold!

1mag1n3

[Lordflasheart]

Imagin3 -

Do I understand from two remarks in your post #19 that you have declined Their Lordships' kind offer of Naval Officer training and Observer specialist training (or that the offer has been withdrawn) but have already decided to accept if the offer should be repeated ?

Here's a precis of what you might be missing. The full news items can be found here - Fleet Air Arm Officers Association, FAAOA (http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/)

It is top today but will move down the list. NB. The students will already have done best part of a year at Dartmouth and more beside. From the FAAOA website -

Four student Observers graduated from the ‘Basic Flying Training’ course at 750 Naval Air Squadron which teaches fledgling aviators the fundamentals of naval aviation. During their 16 week course, the trainees learnt the skills that are required of a frontline ‘Tactical Mission Commander’, including airmanship, navigation and radar analysis. The students will now go on to the next phase of their training on either Wildcat Maritime Attack helicopters at RNAS Yeovilton or the Merlin MK 2 anti-submarine helicopters at RNAS Culdrose.
The CO of 750 NAS said “This is a really important milestone in the aviation careers of the Observer students; they have proven they have what it takes to operate the aircraft safely in challenging conditions and under pressure. They must now take that essential knowledge forward to their respective operational conversion units and apply it to the front-line helicopter type. The important foundations they have laid here at 750 NAS will stay with them for the rest of their careers.”
A precised archive extract from March, as a previous course commenced –

"A new course of trainees have just joined 750 NAS to continue their training as Observers. Having started their aviation training on the ‘Grob Tutor’ aircraft at RAF Barkston Heath, they have now come to RNAS Culdrose to learn the skills that are required of a frontline ‘Tactical Mission Commander’, including airmanship, navigation and radar analysis. They will now spend the next few months under the wing of 750 Squadron, the home of RN Observer training. Their course will involve training in simulators and airborne in ‘flying classrooms’ – the King Air Avenger aircraft. The course of four includes two senior upper yardmen who transferred from being an Aircrewman and an Air Engineer to earn their Commissions and become Officer Aircrew.

Please let us know what happens. LFH