Flying school loses my PPL examination records - what to do?

[asheikh]

Hi all,

I had been flying at Cardiff Aeros from March 2012 until May 2013. While I was there, I completed all my exams (paid for and passed!!) which they told me they had kept a record of in a file....fast forwarding....I am now in London, finishing the last few hours of Nav before I have to leave back to my country on the 27th of September. I emailed them to request my exam records and they tell me they only have it for 4/7 exams i did. Like WHAT!!!

I called them up had a chat and the personal working there now claims, that is all what they have record of and the personal who worked there when I did my exams have left the organization (this happened today).

I am completely stressed out! I neither have the money nor the time to make up with any of this bull****. Even if it was possible, I wouldn't do it cause it was their responsibility to manage the records. I have no idea what to do and am all panicked! I was infact planning to go to Spain next week for a quick sunny week of flying to get my PPL before I go back to the middle east....i guess that's not happening now!

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated.

Abdulla Sheikh.

[worrab]

Hmm. As I understand it, training organisations don't tell the CAA of exam results until the initial application for a licence - so you will have to try and get the results from the school, or retake the exams.

The first thing to do is perhaps to email them the dates when you took the exams - can you find details of the payments? It would be interesting to know what records they have kept - you will need them for verification of your flying training in any case.

Can you remember who your FI was? I wonder whether (s)he may have some record?

The comment "I wouldn't do it cause it was their responsibility to manage the records" is I hope a throw away one. Without exams there is no PPL. It would be a shame to throw all your training away for the cost of resitting a few exams.

If they can't recover the records I can't really see an alternative to resitting the missing papers which is complex in a couple of ways. I think you only have 18 months from sitting the first to the last exam and you're going to be up against the wall on that.

The second minor complexity is that you are in the transition period between the old 7-exam and the current 9-exam environment and you may have to take a larger number of exams than the number that are missing. There is also the small issue of the number of sittings - but any competent training organisation will know how to handle these things.

Good luck!

[Level Attitude]

I wouldn't do it cause it was their responsibility to manage the records.I have some sympathy for your predicament, but not full sympathy, as given the length of time since you moved Flying Schools you should have sorted this out long ago. (I put this in mainly as a warning to other students).

To be valid all exams must be passed within an 18 month time frame so, if it is your earlier exams that are missing then you would only need to 'resit' those. If it is the later ones then the complete set would need to be sat again.

If you did in fact pass the full set of seven exams then this pass will be valid for two years from the date of the last exam (until May 2015) for Licence Issue - why did you wait until two weeks before your own deadline to follow this up?

Especially as you approached the end of your Flying Training, did your current school not keep pressing you for your exam results?

An Examiner may not conduct your Test unless you can prove that you have completed everything that is required for Licence Issue, and your Flying School needs to be able to sign a form stating that you have completed all required training (both theoretical and practical).

Your old Flying School may have arranged for you to sit, and to invigilate, your exams but it will be one individual approved Ground Examiner who will have marked your papers. They are required to keep records of exams they have marked for at least three years.

Ask the school who it was who marked your papers - you may need to provide dates and subjects - and contact them direct for your results.

Results used to be recorded on YOUR PPL application form (why didn't you take this with you when you moved to London?). Now, with online applications, I am not sure how Ground Examiners record passes for applicants.

I was infact planning to go to Spain next week for a quick sunny week of flying to get my PPLHow would this have worked? A Flying School cannot put a candidate forward for Test unless they can state that all required training has been completed. Would you have taken your London School's records with you?

[asheikh]

Thanks for the comments guys!

@worrab: There were different F1's for different exams and i am not sure which one marked the ones missing...but i have given the current aeros staff the names of the possible F1's and they are getting in touch with them. I dont have as such any record of it...generally i paid for the flying lesson and theory test togather...but ofcourse, its a good idea to check. Thanks

@level attitude: I have given them the names of the different F1's i had written my exams with...they will try and get in touch with them and find out. I hope they have some record of it!

When i left the school, i was told (and so i followed) that all the files will remain at my previous school, until requested by the new school. I really just started training recently and so go in touch with them about my documents recently...i had done some nav at my old school and started at my new school with nav again...so yeah they were pushing for it now.

For Spain i would have taken the signed documents from both my schools with me and continued my training..

[cockney steve]

As you have been advised.... ask for their cooperation to track down the examiner . Presumably it was the school you paid for those exams. tell them that if they are unwilling to assist you by recovering the "missing" passes, you will have to take Court action.

Prepare a Plaint for the cost of any necessary resits, telephone calls , letters, visits you make trying to sort out this matter....then be prepared to pursue them through the small claims procedure ,which I believe you can now do on line.

It is likely that the thought of time and expense of attending a court hearing and the damage to their reputation,is greater than the cost of putting right their bad record-keeping.

You have not helped yourself by allowing this to drift for so long.
to be a good pilot you need to be disciplined and methodical and pay attention to detail. ;)

[keith williams]

I suggest that you go to the CAA website and search for Standards Document 11. This details the requirements for schools conducting PPL Theoretical Knowledge Examinations.

Para 15 of this document states that in the event of a student passing a PPL exam, the Ground Examiner must complete the relevant part of the PPL Application form SRG1105A/H, including the number of the examination paper. The idea is that a full record of all exams passed will gradually be built up. If your school has not done this, they are clearly in breach of the Standards Document.

Sadly the Standards Documents are for guidance only and hence not legally enforceable. But the CAA will undoubtedly take a very dim view of the situation if you were to inform them that your school has failed to maintain your records properly. So if you point out to your school that they are in breach of Standard document 11, this will at least give them some incentive to put a bit more effort into finding your records.

You have not helped yourself by allowing this to drift for so long.

The above comment is true, but it is not your responsibility to ensure that your school is maintaining their records correctly.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So if you point out to your school that they are in breach of Standard document 11, this will at least give them some incentive to put a bit more effort into finding your records.
Could go from bad to worse though if they are pressured into "finding" the records which are subsequently found to have been written this week ...

[mad_jock]

Wouldn't be the first time or the last.

And to the student they won't care as long as they get the bit of paper which gives them the license.

I have a feeling though it will not have been a ground examiner who conducted the exam.

The FI might have done it and marked it. The sheet left for the examiner to then put into the SRG1105A which may only be done on completion of the course.

[keith williams]

The FI might have done it and marked it. The sheet left for the examiner

I have no doubt that is how things are actually done. The Standards Document permits the use of an FI to invigilate the exam, but specifically states that exam papers must be marked by the Ground Examiner only.

to then put into the SRG1105A which may only be done on completion of the course.

That also probably happens quite frequently. But it defeats the objective of gradually building up a full record.

Sadly some (too many) ground examiners treat this whole subject as simply a boring chore, and are largely unaware of what the Standards Document requires them to do.

Some years ago I was CGI at a school conducting ATPL courses. We were setting up a Foundation degree course which would involve having classes of up to 24 students taking PPL exams. The university required rigorous recording of exams and results, which would be inspected by the external moderator every year.

With 24 students and 7 exams each, the task was clearly going to be pretty demanding. I knew that this would be quite beyond the capacity of the CFI, so I looked into the possibility of one of the ground school instructors (who would not be an FI) becoming the PPL Ground Examiner. The Standards Document stated a requirement for Ground Examiners to hold an FI certificate or else an AOPA Ground Instructors Certificate.

When I asked AOPA when the next Ground Instructor Course would be held, they could not give me a date. When I pressed the matter further AOPA told me that because they had never had any requests for the course, they had never designed one. So despite being specified in the Standards Document, the course and the certificate did not exist. That was in 2007, but I would be surprised in things have changed since then.

[ChickenHouse]

Just to get my head straight, in the UK the school keeps the exam records? That is quite odd. So, you have no authorities overlooking the quality of exam?

[mad_jock]

The caa sets and issues the exam papers to the ground examiners.

They then in theory (see above) give the tests to the students mark and then debrief them, then update the application form and sign off they have passed that particular exam.

What actually happens in my experience is there is a filing cabinet with the exams in locked away which the FI's have access to. They then give the exams and debrief etc and then putt he sheets into the training records.

Then at the end of the students course the boss or local examiner comes in a sits down and transfers everything to the form.

It was only after I had left instructing I learned on here that as an FI I wasn't meant to have access to the full set of PPL exams. Or for that matter mark them even if it was using a grid. Then discuss what the student got wrong with them.

Personally I think the authorities should just admit defeat on this one and authorise the FI's to do the whole lot including the form signatures. And the ground examiner act as a oversight and QA checker of the system being used. Unless they move the PPL exams online there is absolutely nothing they can do about the fact that reality doesn't match the standards document

[xrayalpha]

Just had a student say he had done his microlight exams at an overseas school, but they have no record. And they haven't given him a licence application form (102M) with the relevant bits filled in.

He didn't know any better.

My suggestion:

Print on the front of the exam paper a warning to candidates to get their form filled in and signed immediately after the exam.

In due course, get the results filed online direct to the CAA.

[keith williams]

What actually happens in my experience is there is a filing cabinet with the exams in locked away which the FI's have access to. They then give the exams and debrief etc and then putt he sheets into the training records.

Then at the end of the students course the boss or local examiner comes in a sits down and transfers everything to the form.

You are of course correct MJ, that is exactly what happens in too many schools.

But let's stop and look at this for a moment. Saving lots of bits of paper then transferring lots of bits of data onto the application form at the end of the course, simply converts 9 minor tasks into one larger task, which will often have to be rushed as the student is leaving the school. It also increases the risk of things getting lost along the way. At best it causes delays when students want their application forms when leaving the school ("sorry, you'll have to wait a week or so until I have time to fill in the form") and at worst it results in the problem reported by the OP in this thread.

The whole process is made much easier if an application form with the basic details is raised when the student joins the school, then gradually filled in as the training progresses. Unfortunately this requires a more "grown-up" attitude on the part of those involved. When the weather is good the FIs are out flying, so the paperwork tends to be left to the bad weather days. In effect the recording process then depends upon the weather. This is precisely why I did not want any of the FI's involved in doing the exam records for the Foundation Degree courses.

The compliance with the Standards Documents could be improved, if the CAA inspectors were to devote a little bit more attention to examining the documentation during routine audits. If the inspectors were to insist on seeing the partially completed application forms at every audit, I suspect that the standards would improve fairly quickly.


In due course, get the results filed online direct to the CAA.

Standards Document 11 states that in the event of a candidate failing an exam the ground examiner is to complete the "Examiners Report Theoretical Knowledge Examination", give a copy to the candidate and send a copy to the CAA within 14 days. I wonder how often that actually happens and how often the CAA carry out checks on it.

[mad_jock]

Or the student sits in front of a computer and does the test and the result is shown on the screen.

And any wrong questions a print out is given giving the reference section where the question originates from. The student can then take it to the FI if further info is required.

As such a ground examiner is not involved and there is no requirement to submit the results as they are already in the FCL system just like how they deal with the ATPL results.

The PPL examinations in the main has been a mockery of the standards document since before I did my PPL 14 years ago. My exams were given and marked by the fat bird on reception who's sum knowledge about aircraft was that's a red one and that's a blue one.

[xrayalpha]

MJ,

Since all one has to do is get the paper out of the filing cabinet, hand it to the candidate, take the answer sheet back, stick a template over it. Say: congrats you've passed, or the resit fee is £xx, and as an examiner you are not allowed to tell the candidate which questions they have passed or failed......

Why isn't the "fat bird" qualified?

[keith williams]

My exams were given and marked by the fat bird on reception who's sum knowledge about aircraft was that's a red one and that's a blue one

And she probably came far closer to complying with the standards document than most "qualified" Ground Examiners or FI's do. Quite simply because she wasn't in a rush to go off flying.


Or the student sits in front of a computer and does the test and the result is shown on the screen.

Meanwhile, back in the real world the CAA have said that they do not intend to extend the online ATPL system to include the PPL. So the best that can be hoped for is that the CAA get the schools to sharpen up their acts.


Why isn't the "fat bird" qualified?

The situation is even dafter than you might think. The fact that Standards Document 11 refers to the AOPA Ground Instructors Certificate, implies that some form of training or qualification is required to be a PPL Ground Instructor. But no such qualification is required to become an ATPL Ground Instructor. If that isn't straight out of "Alice In Wonderland" then I don't know what is.

Getting back to the problem faced by the OP in this thread, if the situation really is as stated, then his school appears to have failed in their duties as specified in Standards Document 11. The fact that many other school also fail on a daily basis does not change this fact. The job of tracking down the missing results should be done by the school. They should then take a close look at Standards Document 11.

[asheikh]

got a call this morning from the school, they have recovered 6/7 of the exam records. Apparently someone miss put them in some one else's file. However, I believe the senior staff (realizing the seriousness) got involved and so things speed up.

in regards to the 7th, as advised yesterday, got in touch with the examiner (found him on FB). he says he does have the record and will send in scans of it soon.

Heading down to cardiff tomorrow and finger crossed, will get all my records!

[mad_jock]

I am sure you will as its public knowledge that the school has been not fulfilling its duty's for maintenance of records.

I would though say that if they do produce the goods delete this thread as a gesture of goodwill.

[keith williams]

That's one option.

But a better one might be to leave it in place to let other schools see how embarrassing things could become if they don't ensure that their record keeping is up to scratch.

Covering things up never brings about improvement.

[BEagle]

This used to infuriate me - it wasn't that hard to raise the PPL application form and include the student's results as soon as he/she had sat an exam.

My predecessor used to allow the secretary to mark the papers, an unacceptable situation which I banned as soon as I took over.

I once told one of our Examiners (who hadn't signed off the student's passes in the PPL application form), that I wouldn't be signing his expenses cheque until he came back in to do so...... That got him moving....:hmm:

Are there still PPL schools which pay such lip service to the requirements of the Standards Document....:uhoh:

asheikh, best of luck!

[cockney steve]

Around 20 years ago, a close friend got well into his PPL training before parental illness and eventual demise (both) caused him to shelve it.

Forward several years and interest was rekindled.....every lesson had been signed-off by his Blackpool instructor, in his logbook. He completed his training at Barton and the CAA accepted all the logged, signed hours....As far as I can remember his R/T exam was also counted...could be wrong on that, but remember him telling of a crackly headset in a "soundproof" room and having to carry out various R?T procedures/readbacks etc. AFAIK, that was at Blackpool.

'MORAL'...ALWAYS get a signature /receipt/acknowledgement IN WRITING
How many have been faced with a bill....."but I paid joe bloggs"..".well he doesn't recall you paying him! "

[Cusco]

Works the other way:

I got my PPL in 1993 at a fine large grass airport in East Anglia.

Two years later the Labour council sold it off for housing and the three resident flying training schools were booted out and scattered to the four winds.

My school was sold, renamed and the set up transferred to a large commercial airport in E Anglia.

Fast forward to 2008 (15 years) when I went to a school at said airport to do a rapid Night Qualification prior to starting IR training.

Where did you do your PPL? I was asked. I told them.

'Just a mo' said the nice man behind the desk, walked over to a filing cabinet and fished out my training records from 15 years previously.

So: not all FBOs are sh ite at keeping records.

Good luck at getting resolution to your problem.

Cusco

[Mach Jump]

Well done Abdulla. Looks like you will be ok after all. :D



...and as an examiner you are not allowed to tell the candidate which questions they have passed or failed......

Only if they fail. If they pass, the Examiner is supposed to revise the incorrect answers, and make sure the candidate understands why they were wrong.

Are there still PPL schools which pay such lip service to the requirements of the Standards Document

Welcome to most of the real world, BEagle. Whilst there are Exam Papers sitting in drawers in flying schools, the system will be generally shambolic, and the contents will become widely known on the internet within days of their issue.

The recent stupidity with regard to the content and 'sitting' regime of the UK PPL TK Exams has brought them into such disrepute, I doubt that the paper Exams will ever recover any integrity.


MJ:ok:

[asheikh]

Well, its not over yet.

As was asked to, I did turn up at the school on Sat morning only to find out the guy who called me was off! The person in for him was not told much about the situation...so had to wait a few hours for the CFI to come in...only to find out he didnt really know much either(whereas i was told by email that the CFI has requested me to come in before he signs my logbook)...basically no body knew what was happening and what was to be done or why i had been called down there (no surprises)!

All the theory exam records were found but had to be signed by some guy who doesnt work there anymore. In regards to my log book, the CFI did not want to sign it as I hadnt flown all the hours with him (fair enough)...they didnt have a file with all the flying training (are they suppose to have something like this?) and so its going to take a few weeks for them track all the hours down and them sign my logbook.

I am hoping that all will be sorted out! but until i have all my records, it will be hard not be worried!

@madjock: I have nothing against the school or anyone there. their lack of organisation has/will cost me in thousands literally! I cant go away to spain as i planned and finish of my PPL and looking at the weather here, its not going to happen before I have to head back home for work. So will have to get a visa, come back again, stay in a hotel and finish my PPL! :(

[ChickenHouse]

They definitely have to have a file on the hours flown, at least the flight records in the aircraft logbook ... which may be a bit of an effort to pull out again.

[keith williams]

they didnt have a file with all the flying training (are they suppose to have something like this?) and so its going to take a few weeks for them track all the hours down and them sign my logbook.

I suggest that you advise the CFI to go to the CAA website and search for standards document 55. Among other things this details the recording action that is required for all flight training.

This includes the following:

Cumulative flying training achieved , and where applicable synthetic flight training achieved.

For each training flight or synthetic flight training detail, the date, the aircraft registration, or FSTD identification, the flight time, the instructor’s name in full, the syllabus exercise number and written comments by the instructor on the students performance, progress and other factors such as attitude and manner during the detail and during the course as a whole. The record shall indicate the standard achieved in relation to the laid down performance standard and any deviations from the syllabus including incomplete items. The students are required to sign each report acknowledging the debrief.

A summary of flying exercises completed with the date on which each exercise in the air or on the FSTD.

All records should be kept for a minimum period of 3 years.

[GBEBZ]

Remember there are always two sides to a story. I personally have nothing but great things to say about Aeros, Aeros Staff, and Aeros Record Keeping.

[Mach Jump]

All the theory exam records were found but had to be signed by some guy who doesnt work there anymore.

This 'guy' is the Examiner personally responsible for the security and administration of the Exams. You must demand his name and contact details, and pursue him directly. Tell him that if he does not sort this out for you immediately, you will report him to the CAA for allowing unauthorised people access to, and use of the Exam Papers.


MJ:ok:

[asheikh]

@matchjump: The school has record of the examiner and they are on it...

@parazgod: Yeah, I agree. Whatever I write is from my recent experience and losses. Previous to that I did enjoy flying there and the bunch were definitely welcoming. I have other friends who did their PPL there and everything did go smoothly...dont know why there was a lack of my file keeping.

@Kieth: They did not have a file according to document 55...and so now are tracking down all the planes i flew on and using the tech logs to verify my flying hours

[mad_jock]

I can almost garantee that the majority of schools would be in the same position in regards to the exam procedures.


It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.

You can also be a ground examinor without being issued with a set of exam papers.

[Mach Jump]

I can almost garantee that the majority of schools would be in the same position in regards to the exam procedures.

It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.

The fact that the practice is widespread is no excuse. The administration of PPL TK exams has become a farce, with virtually anyone given access to the papers.

You can also be a ground examinor without being issued with a set of exam papers.

You may not be issued with your own papers, but when you accept the nomination you become responsible for the papers held by that school.


MJ:ok:

[keith williams]

It is unfair to label them as some sort of special case in there method of dealing with the exams.

Sorry MJ, I have read this entire thread several times and I cannot find any post which labels this school as a special case.

As I said in one of my previous posts, there are probably many schools out there with student records systems that do not comply with the CAA Standards Documents. But this is not a reason for hiding cases where poor recording causes problems for students.

Schools with poor recording systems are clearly not going to improve things simply because the CAA have issued Standards Documents. And the CAA auditors are clearly incapable of detecting these problems. But one or two embarrassing threads here on pprune just might cause some of them to sharpen up their acts.

Looking at the winder picture, it is interesting to note that while these dreadful recording problems continue, the CAA GA Working Group are devoting their energies to more important matters such as reducing the number of exams from 9 to 6, without actually improving any of the questions.

Iceberg? What iceberg? Hmmmm Now where exactly is the best place for these deckchairs?

[mad_jock]

true true,

Some plonker will more than likely send out a bit of paper to be signed that the Standard Document has been complied with.

The rest of EASA seems to be going that way, some magical thing a signature makes it happen apparently.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

"Sorry mate, I know we said you'd be able to take this exam today, but due to a thread on PPRuNe we're now having to take the mindless bureaucracy seriously.


"The next time someone will be in who will be able to supervise you taking the exam will be Wednesday fortnight.


"What? You can't take time off during the week and need to do the exams at weekends? Well, he'll be back from holiday with a spare weekend slot sometime in December.


"Yes I know I did it last time, and yes I know all the papers are in that drawer there, and yes I do have the key, and no I don't have anything better to do just right now (look at the weather!), but them's the new rules, more than my job's worth. Like I said, sorry mate."

[keith williams]

Gertrude, the entire scenario painted in your post is absolute nonsense!

As I said in one of my previous posts, the exams do not need to be supervised by the Ground Examiner. Standards Document 11 simply requires the Ground Examiner to select a suitable invigilator. This could be any FI. There is of course then the need for a small amount of planning ahead to brief the invigilator and give him/her the exam paper.

It is only the marking of the finished paper that must be done by the Ground Examiner. This could of course cause delays in marking papers when he/she goes on leave, but once again a very minor amount of planning ahead will avoid any problems. This should of course include briefing potential exam candidates that there will be a period from xxx to YYY during which the Ground Examiner will be unavailable. So exams can be taken during this period, but they must be booked in advance and the papers will be marked immediately after his/her return.

If Asheikh's comments in this thread are accurate the school concerned has no effective student record keeping system at all. Without proper written records of flight training exercises completed, how on earth do they cope when two or more different FI's are involved? What happens if an FI leaves the company or dies? The options appear to be to simply ask the students how far they have got, or else to start again from scratch.

I'm all in favour of avoiding pointless paperwork, but not all paperwork is pointless.

As for your final paragraph, does the following version sound any more acceptable?

"Yes I know I told you that we have a proper record of all of your training, but the fact is I lied. Yes you will need copies of the written records in order to apply for your PPL but we simply don’t have any. Yes I know that this is going to cost you a lot more money, but like I said, sorry mate."

[mad_jock]

Wasn't it that there was no requirement to have training records for a RTF?

[keith williams]

Although the Standards Documents have been updated fairly recently (2013) to include the new terms like ATO, The requirements themselves are not new. They were included in previous versions of the Standards Documents. Earlier versions used terms along the lines of "Organizations conducting.....training" which have now been replaced by the term "ATOs"

The Foundation degree to which I referred in an earlier post was introduced in 2007. The requirement for recording PPL theory exam results in the application form after each exam was in place at that time.

At that same time the CAA Auditors were pushing to get our Flight School Records up to scratch. The requirements were the same as those in the current Standard Document 55.

[asheikh]

Received my records by royal mail special delivery this afternoon. Though I am not pleased with what has happened in the recent days, I do have to give credit to the flying school for bravely accepting their mistake and sorting the mess out effectively. Special mention to the senior staff - the involvement of whom I believe, fast tracked this procedure (else i was told to expect this parcel in 2-3 weeks time).

[Mach Jump]

Great news. Good for you. :D


MJ:ok: