USAF to Atheist: Say 'God' in oath or don't re-enlist.

[Typhoon93]

Thoughts?

http://rt.com/usa/186176-air-force-atheist-reenlistment-oath/

[The Old Fat One]

Swinderby 1975 flashback...at the swearing in thingy.

Young recruit, cockney like me (but not me)..."I wish to affirm". Much alarm and indignation, but after some checking, even back them, it was discovered he had the right to do so...and he did.

I'm gobsmacked, and frankly a little alarmed, if the spams don't allow an affirmation from atheists????

[Lonewolf_50]

Old Fat One: in my experience, we normally do/did make that accomodation.

What's at hand here is the matter of public law.
Not just the USAF is so bound, as far as I can tell, but it seems that the USAF has chosen to go after the letter of the law for their own reasons.
Point First:

The Enlistment oath and officer's Oath of Office both contain this phrase. {So Help Me God}
Normally, it is not required to be said if the speaker has a personal or moral objection, as is true of all oaths administered by the United States government.
However, a change in October 2013 to Air Force Instruction 36-2606 made it mandatory to include the phrase during Air Force enlistments / reenlistments. This change has made the instruction "consistent with the language mandated in 10 USC 502".

Point Second:

§ 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer

(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

(b) Who May Administer.— The oath may be taken before the President, the Vice-President, the Secretary of Defense, any commissioned officer, or any other person designated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.
I suspect that if this ends up in the Supreme Court, the "normally" mentioned above, which was a custom with long standing, will probably be codified into a regulation of some sort to accomodate those who have no religious belief.

Freedom of religion and freedom from an official state religion are both addressed in the First Amendment to our Constitution.

PS: your reference to Americans as "spams" appears deliberately offensive, and I'd ask you to be more polite in the future. Sort of like the casual habit of referring to folks of African descent as "coons," ya see ... I realize it's a long British habit, and common among certain Yank bashers on this forum, but I invite you to get into the year 2014, no matter how old or fat you are. (I am becoming more of both as each year passes, it seems! ) :eek:

EDIT: For those interested, the standard Department of Defense Enlistment papers, which include the oath, is on line here: DD Form 4. (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd0004.pdf)

EDIT 2:

Sun Who, there is a small and very vocal evangelical minority in uniform who are quite outspoken in such matters. There were when I first entered the service in the 70's, and still are. That is what comes of having citizen soldiers: the new troops/sailors bring their beliefs with them. I wish some of those evangelical folks would appreciate that our non-believing comrades in arms do likewise.

[Sun Who]

When I joined in '83, I swore an affirmation, on my honour (not honor). No-one made me swear on a Bible, or to God and it wasn't a big deal, even then.
I'm a big fan of the US, it has many qualities that I admire, but a small percentage of my American colleagues and friends can be quite fundamentalist when it comes to the 'God thing'. Just makes it harder to criticise the fundamentalists on the other side if you ask me.

Sun.

[Herod]

I always liked Dave Allan's (Irish comedian and satirist) sign-off. "Goodnight, and may your god go with you". I guess that covers all gods, and none.

[Red Line Entry]

Lonewolf,

For clarity: Yank is OK, Spam is not? How about Septic? Or GI?

Where does Limey fit in? Or Pom, or Rosbif, or Brit or Tommy?

Or can we just accept friendly banter between cousins?

[Typhoon93]

I did find it strange, as in the UK there are different oaths for various religious beliefs, and there is one for Atheist/Agnostic folks. Different they may be, they all have the same meaning and the consequences are the same for breaking them.

[Boudreaux Bob]

'm gobsmacked, and frankly a little alarmed, if the spams don't allow an affirmation from atheists????

Care to explain why a Teabag would feel that way?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I too affirmed at my attestation, no gasps of shock or mutterings of "heathen" were heard.

As an aside, being a 'Benedict Arnold' I've never had an issue with the term 'spam' and I've been called it a fair bit during my service to Liz. Lets be honest, the use of food-based nicknames to refer to foreigners is hardly unheard of in the US yet I've never heard Brits getting precious about being called 'Limeys'.

[Roadster280]

Yank is a term used by those who don't know what it means. Otherwise, they'd know not to say stuff like "I spoke to a Yank the other day with a long southern drawl". It just makes them look stupid.

Septic is equally as asinine, as it is a shortening of "Septic Tank", being rhyming slang. It's not offensive, it's just rhyming slang. It is however stupid, because only a percentage of Americans are Yanks (Yank being what Septic Tank rhymes with). So again, used by the hard of thinking.

SPAM is an acronym, and is indeed offensive, once one understands what the letters stand for. Who in their right mind is OK with being called a Motherf*cker?

GI is a term used by the US government, so I don't see any issue with that, but then nobody (less the US Government...) uses it anymore than they say "swell".

Pom, Rosbif, Limey, Brit or Tommy don't offend me at all. Neither do the American ones above, but I do see why some people see the idiots using those terms for what they are.

[Tankertrashnav]

The reason why the words "so help me God" are now required are laid out in the articles quoted by Lonewolf. What is not clear, however, is the thinking behind the recent move to make these words compulsory, when it would appear, if I have read it right, that hitherto they could be omitted.

Could it be that the evangelical faction referred to by Lonewolf have had their say and are seeking to exclude atheists? It certainly seems so.

Living in a very secular society (UK) I am often somewhat surprised at the extent to which religion still plays a major part in the day to day life of many citizens of the USA, but I hadn't realised things had gone this far.

I'm not keen on "spams" either, Lonewolf

btw


I much prefer septics ;)

No offence - really!

btw roadster - I think most of us realise the original meaning of "yankee", just as most Americans realise that the United Kingdom is made up of four different nations, but that doesnt stop many of them referring to the country as "England". I dont think it does to get too precious about these things.

[99 Change Hands]

I remember an American getting very upset on our behalf when we were given the callsign 'Limey' at Flag; we loved it.

Personally, I object to USAF personnel in Suffolk referring to Great Britain as 'the island'.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Yank is a term used by those who don't know what it means.

Not necessarily. I get called 'yank' by my ice hockey teammates all the time and , technically, they're not 'wrong' as such and many of them even know why! The state of my birth was a union state, hence those with "a long southern drawl" might describe it as a 'Yankee State' (some down there really can't let it go).

SPAM is an acronym, and is indeed offensive, once one understands what the letters stand for. Who in their right mind is OK with being called a Motherf*cker?

SPAM is a portmanteau of 'SPiced hAM', and is a term used to describe us that came about from food sent to the UK during WW2 from the US which included the ubiquitous tins of SPAM. Any crude acronym that later came about is an aside and moot. I'm quite proud of the term 'SPAM', its a little reminder everytime a Brit says it that the US helped save them from starvation.

[MPN11]

As I'm currently a Brit on vacation/holiday in Virginia (as is often the case), and spending time with various friends (ex-Mil predominantly), I'm deeply conscious of the linguistic and cultural differences between the two Nations.

Curiously, despite the group including a US Navy pilot, a submariner, a Ranger/SF, a couple of Marines and a USAF guy (and myself and OH both ex-RAF) none of us use potentially perjorative terms for each other's Service or nationality. Perhaps over the last 10 years or so we have just accepted our differences? Or perhaps we are just older and more polite? Or perhaps my many years controlling USAF aircraft over East Anglia, and visiting their bases helped?

I even earned credibility in the early days by referring to The War Between the States ... VA being a Southern State, the distinction matters to some here. I do not, however, refer to The War of Northern Aggression as that leads into some very complex debate which makes "The Irish Question" seem simple :)

[Bob Viking]

Come on guys, you know the number one rule of banter. The more you whinge the more it's going to happen!
Day one, week one.
BV:rolleyes::ok:

[Roadster280]

I don't give a monkey's to be honest.

Anyway Bob V, weren't you on Jags? Glass houses and all that :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Complicated business, Oaths, especially when they seem to conflict with Constitutions.

Appeal court upholds oath to Queen in citizenship case - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/appeal-court-upholds-oath-to-queen-in-citizenship-case/article20032155/)

I wished to affirm when I graduated RAF IOT in 1985, but there was no form of words for this. The senior Chaplain advised me simply to omit the phrase mentioning God, so that's what I did.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Is Ameritard ok? Joke ��

I believe in a God, but I don't believe in people that tell me there is one, bit of a difference, knobheads.

God save the Queen is another one. Save her from her taxpayer funded luxury lifestyle???

[Just a spotter]

Hmm .. given that in the shared Judeo-Christian faiths their scriptures describe their deity as revealing itslef to Abraham, and that the Islamic sacred texts tells of a similar story to the same guy (known as Ibrahim in Arabic), so thus the three traditions are collectively known as the Abrahamic Religions and are therefore all worshipping the same god (or derivatives there of), I wonder would the US military allow re-enlistment to "so help me Allah"?

:hmm:

JAS

[Bob Viking]

It's alright Roadster I'm a big boy. I can take it.
I will not add a 'so to speak'. It was meant to come across as a crude double entendre.
BV;)

[BEagle]

I'd never previouisly heard of any insulting meaning of 'Spam'. So I've just googled to find that there is indeed now some squaddie interpretation 'Spastic Plastic American M**********r' - but that is emphatically NOT a widely used definition.

'Uncle Spam' is more an endearing reference to the help our colonial cousins gave during WW2 when they sent gazillions of tins of the wonderful stuff over to help stop the UK population from starving.

And picnics of the 1950s (when the sun always shone and we had lashings of lemonade) invariably included a can of Spam. With that lethal key opening method, which often caused the less-skilled to cut themselves on the sharp edges of the can.

So whichever pig$hit thick squaddie decided to adopt such an unpleasant meaning for something which most of us regard with affection can s*d right off, in my view.

[Herod]

Well said, BEagle. Where would we be without those wonderful ex-colonials over there? Anyone for the rUK (assuming a Yes vote on 18th) applying to become the 51st state? (Opens new can of worms, ducks)

[ValMORNA]

I grew up during WW2 but can't remember eating the tinned product, unless it was hidden in sausages - the content, not the tins! Meat was rationed at the butcher's shop, but, being country folk, there was always plenty of fresh stuff available and even under-the-counter pork for those in the know.


I didn't realise that there was any other meaning to SPAM than SPiced hAM. I wish I'd stayed in ignorance. ( Paragraph added to keep almost on topic.)

[orca]

In the RN being offered 'under the counter pork' is usually really bad!

[Typhoon93]

PP,

I'd like you to find another woman in her 80's who works even half as hard as Her Majesty does.

With the amount of money the Family bring to the economy every year, I would have thought they'd be allowed at least a little bit of fun without criticism.

[Typhoon93]

I'll admit that I had only ever heard of 'spam' used in a good way and not in the disgusting way that is offensive, until today.

Had it not been for America's involvement, we would have come out of WWII in a far worse state than we did and I don't think it's lost on any of us that many of us wouldn't be here.

I personally respect America and (most) Americans and I respect the alliance and friendship that our two countries have and the values we share. I might not agree with all of the conflicts that British forces have gone in to, to support the U.S, but I'll always agree with one nation supporting the other in the hope that they will return the favour one day.

[Roadster280]

Interesting, BEagle. Of course I am familiar with the foodstuff, I basically grew up on it at times.

I have never heard of SPAM being applied to Americans in anything other than the 'Spastic Plastic American M**********r' form in nearly 30 years of hearing the term. I would therefore say that it emphatically IS the case that many use it as such, and therefore IS offensive. I was most shocked as a spotty teenager all those years ago to hear the meaning of the acronym. The fact that the foodstuff had a US origin just seems to add a double entendre aspect to it.

I don't know where you get the "thick as pig**** squaddie" coining the term from though, it seems far more likely to me that it was a crab (thick as pig**** or other any kind of dung), as there is far more interaction between the RAF/USAF than US Army/British Army. But that's just supposition on my part.

[Lonewolf_50]

Hmm .. given that in the shared Judeo-Christian faiths their scriptures describe their deity as revealing itslef to Abraham, and that the Islamic sacred texts tells of a similar story to the same guy (known as Ibrahim in Arabic), so thus the three traditions are collectively known as the Abrahamic Religions and are therefore all worshipping the same god (or derivatives there of), I wonder would the US military allow re-enlistment to "so help me Allah"?
If the service person were a practicing Muslim, I suspect most CO's would consider that person's faith and agree that the form of the oath was sustained in such a case. Some few would argue that "God" and "Allah" are the same word in different languages, and the language of the oath is English, so therefore use English. I suspect most American servicemen who are Muslim would figure that out by themselves. ;)

[k3k3]

I had never heard the obscene meaning of Spam until I read this thread.

[Davef68]

To get back to the original point, it sounds like a lawyer (Lots of derogatory names for them) has given an interpretation of the Code quoted which states, when read with the 'legal' head on, that even an affirmation should have the phrase 'So help me God'.

The interesting question is does it render any affirmation/enlistment document with the SHMG ommitted as invalid?

[Ogre]

Lonewolf makes an interesting point about Muslim servicemen, so perhaps the emphasis is being discriminatory against those who have no deity to whom they would pledge the oath.

How would it stand for Wiccans, Druids, and any group who believe in a female deity?

P.S. I too thought that SPAM referred to the foodstuff, but then again I also thought Hoe referred to a gardening implement. Personally I will accept "Sweaty sock" or "Porridge wog" with the affection it is normally given, but bridle at being referred to as 'English' in any context. This just shows a lack of geographical understanding in my opinion, like calling a fellow of New Zealand "Australian"

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Air Force Oath is internally inconsistent. The purpose of affirmation is for those do not swear on the Bible. Thus SHMG ought to be omitted for those affirming, since it is logically incompatible with the option of affirming.

Doesn't anybody do logic any more?

Even the Oath of Office of the President has an affirm option (taken by Franklin Pierce) and does not contain SHMG. So, USAF personnel have to say SHMG, but their Commander-In-Chief doesn't?

[Hydromet]

When I enlisted in 1966, it was explained to us that we could make an attestation instead of swearing an oath, and there was a slightly different form of words (and no bible). As I recall, none of us took that option, whether we were religious believers or not.

[The Old Fat One]

No idea spam was offensive and it is discourteous to offend even through ignorance...so apologies and thanks for the insight.

[ShotOne]

How ironic that resources that should be dealing with Islamic fundamentalists should be diverted to deal with Christian fundamentalists within the US armed forces.

[melmothtw]

Yank is a term used by those who don't know what it means. Otherwise, they'd know not to say stuff like "I spoke to a Yank the other day with a long southern drawl". It just makes them look stupid.

Someone had better tell the US Air Force then...

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/497038/british-pilot-soars-among-yankees.aspx

[Barksdale Boy]

I, also, had never heard of the offensive meaning of Spam until reading this thread today.


Ms BB was born in Austin Minnesota, aka Spamtown USA, and is adamant that Spam is an acronym for Spiced Processed Assorted Meats. She also notes that many inhabitants of Austin (Spam is the town's principal employer) seem to be missing fingers.

[darkroomsource]

here's what I don't get,
if the atheist doesn't believe there's a God, why does he care if he says "so help me God"?
Does it challenge his belief?
I've know lots of atheists that use curse words that include God. Why is that OK and this is not?

[Hempy]

Ogre,

Uf he cant tul thuh duffrunce bittwin un Aussie ecksint und un Un Zid ecksint he uz diff!!

[ShotOne]

Presumably, darkroom, the atheists are making the point that if they subscribed to (any) religion their beliefs would be protected by statute, yet they can be deprived of their livelihood for being atheists. Yes they could just lie, but why should they?

[darkroomsource]

I'm not getting it.
So help me George.
I don't know who George is, I don't believe he will help me, I have no problem saying it. I don't see how it has anything to do with what I do or don't believe in. So help me Tim. So help me Bob.
It's not a lie to say so help me David. Or does it mean that I believe in David.
If they truly are atheist, then the word that they have such difficulty with has absolutely no meaning to them whatsoever. Its not a lie. The statement isn't "I believe Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour, Son of the Almighty God in Heaven", it's "So help me God".

This is not about their religious beliefs being impinged upon (and based on every definition of religion I've ever read, being and atheist is a form of religion), but it's about attempting to have their beliefs rule the beliefs of others.

[Snafu351]

Respectfully darkroomsource i agree you are not getting it. Speaking as an atheist.

[Lonewolf_50]

Old Fat One: very gracious of you sir. :D :ok:

Fox3: The Air Force Oath
As I pointed out earlier...
This oath of office is standard across all of our branches of service, as cited in the DD Form 4. It isn't "the Air Force Oath."
What the US Air Force did was reword its regulations so that its oath of enlisement regs more closely followed the Congressional Law that governs this matter.

The question asked on the behalf of atheists, agnostics, Wiccan, Druid, etc, who take the oath is very well asked, and IMO needs to be answered. My basis for that position is enshrined in the First Amendment to our Constitution.

[Davef68]

Lonewolf, sounds like whoever drafted the Congressional legislation made a boo-boo

[Roadster280]

No idea spam was offensive and it is discourteous to offend even through ignorance...so apologies and thanks for the insight.

Good man :D

[brickhistory]

sounds like whoever drafted the Congressional legislation made a boo-boo


Shocked, I tell you. Shocked...

[NutLoose]

Swinderby 1975 flashback...at the swearing in thingy.

Young recruit, cockney like me (but not me)..."I wish to affirm". Much alarm and indignation, but after some checking, even back them, it was discovered he had the right to do so...and he did.


I'm truly surprised by that, in 76 I did my attestation in the CIO about a week or so before I even left for Swinditz.

I still have all my joining instructions for Swinditz with the map of the camp etc :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Lonewolf - so, it's Congress that is illogical?

DRS - You've forgotten agnostics, of which I am one. The purpose of the Oath adding SHMG is to bind me to something which I believe in. Requiring me to add SHMG to an Affirmation is therefore requiring me to lie, since I am not a believer. Furthermore, it is asking me to start my Service with a lie, when honesty is a required primary quality for Service.

And I repeat my point - Why isn't SHMG in the Commander-in-Chief's Oath?

[melmothtw]

DRS - You've forgotten agnostics, of which I am one. The purpose of the Oath adding SHMG is to bind me to something which I believe in. Requiring me to add SHMG to an Affirmation is therefore requiring me to lie, since I am not a believer. Furthermore, it is asking me to start my Service with a lie, when honesty is a required primary quality for Service.

Hi Fox, speaking as an agnostic myself I have to agree. I think your point can be carried over to republicans also.

In this country, republicanism is not a crime, and yet anyone wishing to join to armed forces has to swear an oath of allegiance to the Crown. I dare say that over the years a fair few republicans have had to lie at the start of their service lives, when all they want to do is to serve their country in a job they love.

Is it not time in this country then to drop the oath to the Crown in favour of an oath to the country?

[Al Murdoch]

There is a big difference between swearing allegiance to an imaginary angry sky fairy and the Crown. One exists, the other probably doesn't.

[melmothtw]

If you don't 'believe' in either, the difference isn't so big. Swearing allegiance to one or the other (or both) still requires you to begin your service career with a lie, and I think that was the point that Fox was making with regard to an oath of allegiance to god.

[aislinn]

Al. The Crown, in her capacity, IS the protector of the Faith.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

One can be a republican and still honestly swear allegiance to the Crown, if one wants a democratic transition from Constitutional Monarchy to a Republic. The same is not true of SHMG

[Al Murdoch]

I'm pretty sure the Monarch is the Defender of the Faith, not the Crown. They're not quite the same thing.
Fox3 puts my point more eloquently.
Anyway, I digest.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Anyway, I digest.

Good lunch, then? ;)

[melmothtw]

Can't say I agree it's possible in good conscience to swear an oath of allegiance to an institution you want to see abolished, but I digest also...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The principle of democracy is higher in my canon than its exact implementation, so no inconsistency. I'm not a revolutionary....or at least, I haven't been so far.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oddly I was having a conversation with a civvy colleague about the Oath of Allegiance/Attestation last night and she asked me a question I couldn't reliably answer.

"When does your need to comply with the oath end?"

At the moment it is not an issue but is the oath linked to service contract (when no longer under full time or reserve commitment oath 'expires') or does it effectively never end?

[bcgallacher]

It would appear from this that our American cousins have Christian as well as Islamic fundamentalists to worry about. From what I have gathered Atheists are regarded as the spawn of the devil in the US. My little country in the past was extremely sectarian but now my sons and daughters generation really do not give a bugger about religion or race - few attend churches,few profess any formal faith and as a result we have one less factor in our society to cause social unrest. I myself have been an Atheist from an early age but I also believe that we each have a right to seek our own path through life - as long as that path does not impinge upon the freedom of others.
As a young boy I lived in predominantly Islamic societies and regarded Muslims as just Christians who prayed in a different direction, but Islam has morphed into a faith with a significant number of intolerant barbaric savages - with the passive acquiescence of the moderate majority. There are large numbers of adherents to Islam that would kill me and anyone of a different faith given the chance. There is only one solution to religious fanaticism,if we do not act now it may result in the modern equivalent of the fall of Rome.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

"When does your need to comply with the oath end?"

Legally, the Oath ends when the requirement for Service ends. Personally, I don't think it ever ends. There is no time limit mentioned within it. Should the Crown choose, in extremis, to appoint Officers over me and issue orders once more, I'm happy to comply. Would probably have to be pretty extremis now though for me to be of any use ;)

OmhGrJJjI7E

[Lonewolf_50]

Lonewolf, sounds like whoever drafted the Congressional legislation made a boo-boo Dave, I doubt it. The law as written goes back to at least the Eisenhower Administration, but its roots are back in about 1786 or so.

In those days, there wasn't so much sensitivity to "non mainstream" people as there is today, nor as much consideration.

As with many laws, in time a case arises which will challenge a law and it ends up in the Supreme Court. Our Civil Rights movement of the past sixty years has ample example of same. I suspect that the Air Force choosing to get more with the letter of the law is going to take a few years to work through the courts, but a formal allowance for those not into deities is in order. First Amendment issue.
bcgallacher From what I have gathered Atheists are regarded as the spawn of the devil in the US. All that makes you is ignorant, perhaps willfully so.
For Fox3:
Congress, illogical? Well, depends on the topic. See my response to Dave. Congress is often very rational in how it presents its demands for "this project in MY district" ... :E

[JimNtexas]

In the U.S. the military's atheists also want atheist 'chaplains'.

Fine guys, whatever floats your boat.

[bcgallacher]

Lone wolf 50 - does being wilfully so make it worse?

[Lonewolf_50]

Yes, bg, it does, as does the attitude expressed by you in that post.

JimN, that is the first time I have ever heard of that.
What, exactly, is an atheist chaplain and what would he/she do?

[Rosevidney1]

An atheist chaplain is of course a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron.


Chaplain is Old French chapelain from medieval Latin capellanus 'custodian of the cloak' (of Saint Martin).


A chaplain is a member of the clergy attached to a chapel, specifically one officiating in the private chapel of a household or institution, on board ship, or for a Regiment, school etc.


The term also applies to a nun who recites the inferior services in the chapel of a nunnery.


Just sayin'..........