Veterans planning to leave Scotland in the event of a yes vote?

[Biggus]

In the SNPs 600 odd page document on their vision for a future independent Scotland, it states their intention to take over responsibility for paying service pensions for veterans who remain living in Scotland. Now, this is only an intention, and presumably would be one of the many subjects that would have to be negotiated if the result is yes, it may not actually come to pass, however.....

A friend of my wife told her that she knew of "many" retired military personnel who intend to leave Scotland in the event of a yes vote, with their pension being the main area of concern.

How many is "many"? Well, this being a rumour site, I thought I'd ask if anyone else was aware of this, is in a similar situation, has similar intentions, etc.....

[BATCO]

Well since no one has replied either way since OP put this up, I thought I'd introduce a little drift….

Batco doesn't live in Scotland, but his money is on the move out of his Scottish-based bank.

Regards
Batco

[Al R]

BATCO,

Is your bank even domiciled north of the border or does it jus have Scottish somewhere in the title? Even if it isn’t, the reality is that Edinburgh’s financial sector is not quite what once it was.

The Bank of Scotland/Scot Widows is a tiny part of the Lloyd’s group and up for grabs. The head of Scottish Widows is (this morning) complaining about the impact of relentless regulatory change but it's unlikely he'd ever want to invite even more cost, uncertainty and volatility by heading back properly north of the border.

Pensions meltdown threatens savings revolution - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11076946/Pensions-meltdown-threatens-savings-revolution.html)

Standard Life is listed on the London stock exchange and is seemingly forever making noises about heading south for good and closing down (effectively) its call centre operations, and pension companies such as Scottish Life are now only brands owned by companies domiciled south of the border. The Royal Bank of Scotland is these days largely a Scottish company in name only, and run from London.

I suppose (in respect of AFPS and because it is an unfunded scheme) an intention to pay is the best that can be given. Whether or not the intent is ever going to be possibly later reneged on for political, regulatory or financial reasons is another matter..

[Rossian]

.....I will seriously consider moving south.

The deterrents are how much will I get for my nice house here and what will that buy me south of the border?? Not a lot I suspect.

The airy-fairyness of the arrangements for my service pension give me cause for concern. Will the annual increases continue?? How will my pension be taxed?

Above all I do not want to see the UK broken up to satisfy the ego of a man I consider a chancer. As a Scot through and through what has appalled me has been the anti-Englishness of the campaign and the serious nastiness of the Yes side. An associate of mine in a charity I'm involved in put a NO sticker in the back window of his car on Monday and that night had nails driven into his back tyres. The acrimony generated will take a long time to dissipate.

And of course last night Nicola Sturgeon said that if it was a NO vote they will hold another referendum within five years. Keep plugging at until the stupid voters cast their ballots the "right" way.
"Aye that'll be right as they say in her part of Scotland.

The Ancient Mariner

[Wander00]

How odd - if the vote is "yes" the that Scottish git says it is "for ever": however, his mouthpiece says if "No" we can try again later -bit of "goose" and "gander" here methinks

[HAS59]

I'm out of here next week.
I rely on my RAF and Civil Service Pension, and a War Pension - I just don't trust the SNP. Whichever way the vote goes this will still be a beautiful country and wonderful people - with idiots for politicians.

But

Once again this is a 'nation' divided

It always was a disparate group of regions and clans but now you can add 'Yessers' and 'Nawers' to the mix.
The SNP will not take no for an answer so they will keep on banging their drum.
My little village is now divided with distrust and nastiness common.

If it goes yes - they simply can not afford what they have 'promised' let alone all the things they will need to set up, hence my worry about my pensions.

If it goes no then the "it's a' your fault" recriminations will start.

It's been a great twenty five years here ...
But I'm off - and can't wait.

[ricardian]

Moving from Scotland isn't an option for me but I am concerned about my state pension and civil service pension if the vote is "Yes".

[clunckdriver]

As a Canadian who has seen political murder, troops on the streets, kidnaping of embasy staff, financial chaos, discrimination againt anyone not considered a "Pure Quebecois", {not even First Nations citizens are granted this "purity" by the Seperatist idiots, this in spite of being here thousands of years befor any of us} I can only watch with horror the path that Scotland may go down, dont kid yourselves, it can and will happen North of Hadrians Wall if this stupidity comes about. We now live in Ontario, my kids having gone to French schools here, this was not permited under Bills 21 and 22 within Quebec lest they should contaminate the "purity" of the education system! They all have great jobs, partly due to their abillity to speak more than one language, somthing which sucesive seperatist governments within Quebec have tried to stamp out!

[melmothtw]

that Scottish git

How very erudite.







.

[Courtney Mil]

I have been a very happy customer of a well known Scottish bank for over 30 years. The last time I spoke to my branch in St Andrews before moving to France, I asked if it would be safe to continue banking with them in the event of "Yes". The assistant manager told me that she had no idea. Should I move my pension and savings south of the border? Officially, there is no advice, but if I were you I would. So I am. How very sad. Best bank I ever dealt with. No, a superb bank.

[perthsaint]

There is now a Veterans' Commissioner. He should be able to answer any queries.

ScottishGovernment - News - Veterans Commissioner announced (http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Veterans-Commissioner-announced-e53.aspx)

[Courtney Mil]

Perthsaint, no one can answer any questions. No one knows.

[perthsaint]

Plenty of people know, Courtney.

[longer ron]

Know what PS ??

[glad rag]

Plenty of people know, Courtney.

Well why don't YOU tell us then, or are you merely here for s:mad:s and giggles?

I find your parochial view of veterans livelihoods insulting to put it mildly.

[perthsaint]

Parochial, glad? That's an odd one to throw. What would you like to know?

[glad rag]

Answer the question then.

But you won't, will you. :mad:

[dagenham]

How's this for ****s and giggles ... But also a pensioner my self but down Sarf

1. In all likelihood the arrangements will stand as the agreement is with country of which you served. Pension gets paid irrespective of where you live to a degree

2. How the scottish government treat the income for taxable purpose is another issue. That will be decided by the mandate of who the Scottish electorate elect

3.All bets are potentially off as The biggest issue will be currency arrangements. Even if sterling is used that does not protect the spending power of your payments. Especially if the snap keep talking about walking away from debt! They can forget having any borrowing power

I am getting a bad feeling about the way this is going and I do hope we all stay together. I don't think the challenge about oil running out is the big issue. The size of the Scottish elderly population, the fact that Scotland still imports most of its electricity from England etc etc all bode ill for life after independence.

I do hope whatever happens your pensions are safe.. Too hard won not to be !

[Biggus]

perthsaint,

You say "plenty of people know", and then go on to ask, What would you like to know??

Well, I would like to know:

What will happen to military pensions for veterans living in an independent Scotland? Specifically:

Who will pay the pension?

What currency will it be paid in?

Will the pension for veterans living in Scotland be "linked" to those for someone with identical military service still living in the rest of UK, so a veteran isn't financially disadvantaged over time by having chosen to live in Scotland?

What happens to the pension for a veteran who lives in Scotland after independence, but chooses to move to England later, say in 2020?

How you can provide answers (as opposed to intentions) for any of these questions given that agreements on these matters will form part of post referendum discussions yet to take place between the respective governments?

[perthsaint]

Biggus,

Pensions will be paid by the Scottish Public Pensions Agency in sterling and will be the same as those paid in the rUK.

You're absolutely right to say that there will be discussions between the two governments. I can't see either or both wishing to use armed forces pensions as a political football though. Can you?

[nimbev]

Perthsaint

How can you state in one sentence that pensions 'will' be paid, and in the next sentence acknowledge that there will have to be discussions between the two governments. You dont know how pensions will be paid. Like so many statements made by the Yes camp - your post is based on supposition and wishful thinking.

[perthsaint]

Do you seriously think pensions won't be paid?

[Biggus]

perthsaint,

I would have to say, respectfully, that your "answer" is in fact merely an intention, proposal, plan, etc, and not a certainty or fact or the only option.


As for the comment by nimbev, he didn't say that pensions wouldn't be paid, just queried how they would be. Perhaps he was implying that veterans pensions would continue to be paid by MOD, as they are for veterans living in say France, as opposed to by a Scottish government?

[Courtney Mil]

No I can't, Perthsaint. We're small fry and, unless you personally are willing to front-up my pension, I can see no option other than transferring everything back into the UK.

Here's another thought for you. My second pension, as things stand, would be paid from the UK in sterling, to a Scottish bank using an, as yet, unknown currency, and then transferred to a bank in France in Euros. Three different currencies, one that has possibly defaulted right from the start, with unknown exchange rates. Would you take that risk?

"Say living in France?" Biggus. What are you saying? ;-)

[perthsaint]

Biggus,

I've posted the Scottish Government's policy. I don't know what the UK Government's intentions are but I don't think deciding how pensioners residing in Scotland are paid would be within their remit.

[perthsaint]

Courtney,

Only two currencies of course.

I would have thought that having pensions paid in different tax jurisdictions may be advantageous:cool:

[longer ron]

I've posted the Scottish Government's policy.


Which is why nobody 'knows' anything !

[Courtney Mil]

Perthsaint, no advantage at all under the Anglo-French Double Tax Agreement, as I'm sure you and the Scottish "Government" know. Right? Transfers through three currencies can only lose in exchange rates and fees.

And your answers to all the other honest questions? And if you have any further doubts about how people feel, this may help...

Savage racism turning Scotland into a no-go zone for the English* | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2745565/Savage-racism-turning-Scotland-no-zone-English.html)

[perthsaint]

Two rates, Courtney.

I wasn't thinking of DTA's, more Personal Allowances. :cool:

And, yes, that's a rancid article in a rancid rag.

[glad rag]

Which is why nobody 'knows' anything !

Exactly. It's all a right load of hot air, peoples livelihoods are a politicians [and a not very good one at that being an ex rbs employee] pawn to be used as they see fit.

Due to the nationalists "ex imperialists" rhetoric, I have no doubt that pensions are just one of the many taxable assets that will be used to fettle those deemed as requiring additional social assistance in the "Fair and Equal" pipe-dream they have sold to those whose thoughts only reach as far as the front of their flatscreens.

[glad rag]

Two rates, Courtney.

I wasn't thinking of DTA's, more Personal Allowances. :cool:

And, yes, that's a rancid article in a rancid rag.

But you fail to denounce the subject.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, I'm pleased for you that you can make light of it, Perthsaint. For us it's a matter of our livelihood, for you it's clearly a matter of something where uncertainties don't matter. Good luck to you.

As you have waded in here with your opening shot, any chance you might offer some reasoned answers to the points that folk here are raising... ...not rhetoric, answers. Give it a go.

[perthsaint]

Courtney,

I've answered every question you've asked.

[Bigbux]

In the SNPs 600 odd page document on their vision for a future independent Scotland, it states their intention to take over responsibility for paying service pensions for veterans who remain living in Scotland. Now, this is only an intention, and presumably would be one of the many subjects that would have to be negotiated if the result is yes, it may not actually come to pass, however.....

This is quite an astute observation. Contractually speaking, veterans' pensions were accrued through their service to the UK Armed Forces, so so liability to pay that pension would remain with the UK Armed Forces - which, of course, an Independent Scotland would not be part of.

Why would they voluntarily undertake a finical obligation that wasn't theirs?

The questions remain: What would be the tax treatment by an Independent Scotland Government for Forces pensions paid to Scotland residents from a foreign country ? and would you be better off with a Sterling payment - given that no-one knows what the Scottish legal tender will be?

[Courtney Mil]

I wasn't thinking of DTA's, more Personal Allowances.

A reasoned response to people that have sufficient worries to pull out of Scotland? I'm impressed.

[perthsaint]

You were the one who brought up the UK/France DTA, not I.

[Courtney Mil]

Perthsaint, the subject is vets bailing out out of Scotland because of fears that their livelihoods may be at risk. I and others have offered our concerns. Apart from a link to a website, you have not been able to offer anything other than one-liners and a smiley face. Not a great argument.

I only told you of my circumstances as an example. You want to make it into a political issue. But with no weight of argument. To lots of people it's more a matter of real concern. As they say on that TV programme, "I'm out." Assets moving south. And you would do well to note how many businesses will do the same. For the same reasons.

[perthsaint]

Courtney,

If people wish to be fearful where there is no reason to be then I can be of no assistance. Good luck to them and you.

[glad rag]

As inflammatory statements go that one's a 9/10.

Your conviction and unthinking belief is almost religious.....

...and we all know where that leads, don't we......

[Courtney Mil]

Nothing to do with "fear". Would you risk your livelihood in the face of so much uncertainty? Rhetorical question.

Now, if you'd like to offer some reassurance to us all, please go ahead. Otherwise understand that businesses and people will move south for the same reasons that have already been stated here.

It's late in France, so, goodnight.

[perthsaint]

Can you be specific about the risk that you feel exists?

Goodnight.

[longer ron]

The risk is that basically it is a dumb idea to start with -

I live in digs during the week - there were 3 of us ostensibly english guys talking about it in the kitchen the other week - we all have close family ties with scotland - I was born and raised in fife and I would not dream of going back to scotland if they split !

I have yet to find a single working jock that thinks splitting is a good idea - in fact they are unanimous that it is a crackpot thing to do - the risks are horrendous PS

[Wholigan]

There's been enough disruption of the independence thread in Jet Blast by "people" throwing in meaningless one-liners and pot-stirring, goading posts. It will NOT happen in the Mil Forum!

Perthsaint will not be back in here for 30 days so that he can concentrate on Jet Blast!!!!

[Always a Sapper]

perthsaint

A few questions for you...

Would we all agree that the United Kingdom is a modern country that is based on democracy and governed by a Government voted in by the whole of the UK and also holds such things as fairness and democracy close to the heart... Yes?

So why are the 'Yes' group trying to break up OUR country the United Kingdom?

And more importantly WHY THE ****** DON'T I and every other citizen of this fine and upstanding Country the UNITED KINGDOM who are not currently sat in Scotland GET A ****** VOTE AND SAY IN BUSTING UP OUR COUNTRY!!!! :mad:

What right does a MINORITY (which, at the end of the day the 'Yes' campain is when you take into account all UK citizens) think they have to break up the country, hardly democratic is it?

Out of interest, in the event of a 'yes' vote. One that will no doubt lead to the break up of our country, the UK and considering the majority of the voters in the UK will have had NO SAY IN IT WHAT SO EVER what's the chances of taking it to the European Court of Human Rights as I for one will most certainly feel that my human rights will have been proper rolled over.

Mark my words the UK is going down the pan and the way it's going, give it ten years it's going to resemble the FRY, ie Bosnia revisted only instead of being over there it will be over here!


Okay rant over... for now, apologies for all the shouting etc. Nurse is here with my meds now... :}

[Typhoon93]

I believe the rest of the UK should pay half of the pensions of retired service personnel who retired before Scotland became independent, for those who live in Scotland. Scottish men have died for the UK's interests, so it's only right.

Although I doubt Scotland actually will become independent....

[serf]

So what is the current situation regarding foreign veterans? I presume that F&C and British citizens living abroad have no trouble receiving their pensions, so why would it be different for Scots?

[Courtney Mil]

Always a Sapper,

Regarding your questions, Mate, you need to post them on Jet Blast if you want an answer. Perthsaint can't answer here - see Wholigan's post.



Wholigan,

A wise move, I think.

[longer ron]

One of the complications might be is that at the moment we are all 'British' but if the vote goes to the separatists and the Union is split up then presumably the people in Scotland (ie permanent residents etc) will have to choose between being 'Scottish' or being 'British' in the new not so Great Britain !

I doubt that the British Government will have a problem paying pensions to ex servicemen in scotland but I doubt Salmond would want them to have that 'power'.

LR - proud to be called a 'Porridge W*g'

As an aside - this vote is the most divisive/potentially catastrophic vote I can remember since we voted to join the 'Common Market' way back in 1974 .
I have been talking to some extremely worried folk north of the border - anybody with a reasonable IQ can see the huge potential risks.
Also on the other side of the 'coin' - as a taxpayer - this has already cost us a fortune - it will cost another fortune to 'organise' the break up and then yet another fortune to bail them out when it all goes 'Ti ts Up'

[The Old Fat One]

Since the original question pertains exactly to me - and having seen this morning's poll - I'll answer the question as asked, and without any yes/no spraff.

I'm a veteran (27 years in) so I get a pension, which is pretty profoundly important to me, thus any decision I make will depend on:

a. Tax issues.
b. Who is going to pay my pension and with what.

I'm English, but I could not give a flying goat about nationality/identity stuff like that, providing I get to live in a democratically free & just country.

All that pension and tax stuff will be sorted between Sept 2014 and March 2016 (the nominal date of independence). In true, time-honoured TOFO fashion, I will be keeping up to date with every titbit and morsel of information as it unfolds, using all available means, with the sole purpose of making an informed choice well in advance of any deadlines.

Since I already own property north and south of the border, I'll end up living wherever I ****ing well choose. Who knows...I might end up a tax free expat of no fixed abode.

[BEagle]

Why on earth are 16 year old kids being allowed to vote in this ridiculous referendum, given that the normal minimum voting age is 18?

[Burritto]

Why should the UK government pay the pensions of another countries veterans? Yes, a veteran who served the the UK armed forces defended the whole of the UK, but that also included Scotland. So the liabilities for paying pensions earned up to the point of independence are for all the peoples of England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland to shoulder, not just those who decide to stay in the rUK. Given the SNP's attitude towards their liabilities if they don't get everything they want, then best of luck. Either pension responsibilities are split individually between an iScot and rUK depending on initial residence at independence, or iScot needs to contribute it's share of the pot to the current arrangements for ALL veterans of the UK. Given that this applies to all public sector pensions (local government ones may be simpler), I think there are some big unanswered questions and I too would be a little concerned when the most basic statements from the SNP about finances (Currency Union, currency, LOLR, deficit etc) are just not believable. It's a sad affair, as the choice of independence is one for the Scots to make but the way the SNP are going about the whole process is so damaging.

[esscee]

I suspect "the reason 16 year-olds are getting the vote" is exactly the same as how "Bliar" got voted in in 1997.
The more minorities that are courted by "Fishy" Salmon the only chance he has of getting a successful Yes vote.
It all has a rather fishy smell to it.

[cokecan]

Beagle,

because the SNP took the view that impressionable, gullable, full of piss and wind 16/17yo's would be more likely to vote 'yes' than 'no'. the pollsters tell us that actually thats not true, or wasn't the last time i looked, and that are as broadly split as any other group with a slight majority as 'no'.

there was some guff about extending the vote to those who would be most effected by the result, but not only does no one believe it, the logic of that argument extends to giving the vote to four year olds, and oddly enough the SNP didn't push for that...

i'm still betting on a 'yes' with a tiny majority - firstly 'yes' people tend to be more passionate about their cause and are therefore more likely to go out and vote on the day than 'no' voters, and secondly because the 4 years of polling has said 'no' will win, leading, imv, to a certain complacency on the part of 'no' voters about the size of the 'no' vote - a proportion of 'no' voters will probably take the veiw that the referendum will be defeated without their vote. if enough people think that...

thirdly theres the 'don't knows' - the polls put the DK's at around 8-12% of the electorate who plan to vote. what they decide, and if they'll vote, will decide this - and i take the view that a majority of those who eventually make a decision and who then go out and vote will vote 'yes'.

i'm a 'no' by the way...

[Al R]

I heard just now, on Smooooth Radio that more Scots now want independence than there are those who want to remain part of the UK. Notwithstanding that, yesterday, I mentioned the political, financial or regulatory pressures on pensions. The reality is, whichever government holds power, the situation concerning state or unfunded pensions is pretty much the same and no amount of lobbying or legal action is going to change that.

Although, even as late as last week, the detail about the new state pension is still emerging, we can be relatively certain that most of the electorate is going to have a new, generous flat-rate state pension which will pay out £144-a-week - if you have paid 35 years of National Insurance Contributions (NIC). We can thank the Liberal Democrats for that, you either think it's a good thing or you don't. However, today’s 20 and 30-somethings will have to wait until they're 70 to receive it. But, when we talk about the state pension not being around or whenever we talk about party 'x' or party 'a' jeapordising it and rendering it ‘extinct’, we are referring to depleting the ‘National Insurance Fund’.

We all probably know that NIC are paid and then passed on to today’s pensioners as state pension and any surplus goes into the NI fund; effectively, we pay for the pensions of our parents and so too, will our pensions be paid for by our kids (huh). It isn't a fund as such, it's just one big debit ledger which juggles expenses and future commitments. But although the fund is hypothetical, the Government Actuarial Department (GAD) continues to calculate any surplus within it. The problem is, the difference between the money paid in and the money paid out is shrinking fast.

The fund health is calculated every 5 years, most recently as a couple of months ago, with reference to back testing against the previous 5 years. In 2010 GAD reported that the NI fund had asurplus of £45 billions which it projected would increase to £103 billions in 2013. It got it wrong. The most recent report calculated it to be just £29 billions. When/if it goes, the state pension and any unfunded pensions will have to be found from somewhere, scrambling around the state sofa for loose change, etc. The situation isn't that precarious, just yet. Optimistic predictions by GAD show the NI fund will rise until 2036, and at that point.. it'll then collapse.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/336829/QR_2010_report_17_July_2014.pdf

The problem is, GAD has to rely on growth figures provided to it to work with - for instance, it has to assume that earnings growth will be 2.4% a year (ha). But if you refer to the period covered by that report (2008 to 2013) wage growth was minus 1.8% in real terms and since then, just 2.2% per annum. So, when Labour politicians talk about growing the economy, although they may not have the same motivation that I think they should have, the reality is, we NEED growth to grow and generate the NI fund. It's that growth which will fund our pensions, not whether or not the Scots vote for some bloke with a chip on his shoulder.. that's just a red herring, and he's nothing more than a legislator, a politician. I don't know about you, but I tended not to trust those people who wanted to be prefects or head boy either. He won't be able to magic money out of thin air.

I read back through various financial books and in the most prescient ones, authors have been predicting the demise of the state pension since the 80s, but as long as we had a large number of older people with a high probability to vote I doubt that would ever happen. It's all changing now, in 5-10 years, the legions of cruise enjoying, blue collar final salary gas board workers are going to start pegging it in largish numbers and so their input won't matter so much. I really feel for generation Y. My kids will all be impacted and I feel almost guilty to be part of it; complacency and lack of awareness in many people is palpable. Most recently, 10-12 years ago when the word 'debt' was replaced by the far hipper 'credit' and Tony Blair (GQ Philanthropist of the year - really)? dropped rates to practically zero and we all hocked our homes for a new TV - to fund his and Gordon Brown's self indulgent, self referencing insane political and social vote winning odyssey.

We have all read of the campaigning and the uncertainty surrpounding increases to, for instance, AFPS. The above scenario looks grim, but it can change - and quite quickly. We simply have to start increasing taxes (quickly) to pay for it. If we take ONS data at face value, the rate of increase of liabilities is £640 billions per annum and total tax revenue is running at somewhere near £600 billions. So, we make pension payouts more miserly, we continue to increase retirement age, we increase NI contributions, we remove guarantees on SERPs, we introduce yet more tax raids or restrictions on savings and assets, we introduce means testing - lets not forget either, Putin actually confiscated pensions.

Russian Pensions Paid for Putin's Crimea Grab - Bloomberg View (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-06-26/russian-pensions-paid-for-putin-s-crimea-grab)

Public sector pension liabilities have jumped from £770 billions to £1.7 trillions in just 5 years, according to figures from Treasury accounts. Peter Tompkins, Fellow of the Institute of Actuaries and chairman of the non-governmental Public Sector Pensions Commission (and therefore, not someone you'd immediately think of as being so irresponsible to be arrested at half past three one morning chained to a lamppost and with his trousers down around his ankles) calculated the liability would rise in very short order to £1.3 trillions. This is one of the reasons why I think the cost cap on AFPS is unsustainable in the short term.

But, seeing that this thread IS about Scotland, if the young taxpayers up there are going to be funding an ageing population's free prescriptions, TV licences and heating allowances and if free tertiary education has to be funded.. all against a backdrop of uncertain oil revenue, then unless you know where the money for the state and occupational pensions are going to come from, then you really are taking a big gamble. If we assume, and it is generally accepted, that the cost of looking after all of our disgracefully and gently ageing Lightning AND Phantom pilots (Courtney excepted, as he slips into cognac induced reverie and won't care too much either way - chapeau, Courtney - apologies, I still think Cauliflower au Gratin is a Parisian railway station) is going to double as a proportion of GDP by 2025, then the impact will be more keenly felt, surely, north of the border where the state commitment is that much greater.

The middle-aged and middle classes are already struggling with uni debt, unaffordable housing and fragmented careers, military partners are finding it increasingly difficult to get work, let alone save for their own retirement which may provide resilience. On the basis of that cash flow modelling, and it could change either way still, and it will, as the flow ebbs and flows, we can kiss goodbye to any meaningful state pension benefit for anyone currently less than 32-35 years old or so. Unless something changes, unless something gives. I suppose, the reality is, if you want independence in Scotland, don't vote for it because some toe rag legislator who wasn't good enough to get a proper job tells you it's a good idea.

Finally, the story about how the Czechs and Slovaks oversaw the separation of the Koruna offers a useful signpost.

[4mastacker]

Al R wrote:

I suppose, the reality is, if you want independence in Scotland, don't vote for it because some toe rag legislator who wasn't good enough to get a proper job tells you it's a good idea.


Al, have a 'Like'. :D:D:D:D

[1.3VStall]

I was worrying about how independence might affect the British and Irish Lions team for the tour to New Zealand in 2017.

Then I remembered that the Scottish rugby team is so cr@p that there are very few Scottish Lions!;)

[Vendee]

What right does a MINORITY (which, at the end of the day the 'Yes' campain is when you take into account all UK citizens) think they have to break up the country, hardly democratic is it? That's rather an immature view. Don't forget, when the Republic of Ireland was created in 1922, a "minority" of the islands citizens were allowed to stay part of the UK. Also remember, the UK was a union of individual states.... not unlike the USSR was in concept. Do you think those Soviet states had a right to their independence?

[ORAC]

That's rather an immature view. Don't forget, when the Republic of Ireland was created in 1922, a "minority" of the islands citizens were allowed to stay part of the UK. Also remember, the UK was a union of individual states.... not unlike the USSR was in concept. Do you think those Soviet states had a right to their independence? Why not asks the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians and others.....

[Vendee]

Why not asks the Latvians, Estonians and Lithuanians and others.....I think they are much happier with their current status.

[McGoonagall]

Late to this but i am a veteran living in Scotland and recently medically retired early from the railway. I have always, despite working in London, spent as much as I could on local services and local shops to support the local community. That community is now split along the Yes/No debate. Friends and family are being divided and there has been vandalism of cars and properties that display favours for both sides. There has also been an increase in casual violence. Salmond, if he gets his way, will inherit a divided nation. Divisions that will take generations to heal, if ever.

This has pissed me off so much I am now in Spain in the process of buying a business and re-locating here with my family. So, the community will lose a net contributor. No big deal if it is just one but many in the area that work over the border are seriously considering moving into England for peace of mind over taxation, pensions, currency etc.

A united independent nation Alec? You are having a bubble.

[glad rag]

Late to this but i am a veteran living in Scotland and recently medically retired early from the railway. I have always, despite working in London, spent as much as I could on local services and local shops to support the local community. That community is now split along the Yes/No debate. Friends and family are being divided and there has been vandalism of cars and properties that display favours for both sides. There has also been an increase in casual violence. Salmond, if he gets his way, will inherit a divided nation. Divisions that will take generations to heal, if ever.

This has pissed me off so much I am now in Spain in the process of buying a business and re-locating here with my family. So, the community will lose a net contributor. No big deal if it is just one but many in the area that work over the border are seriously considering moving into England for peace of mind over taxation, pensions, currency etc.

A united independent nation Alec? You are having a bubble.

Indeed.

I wouldn't actually mind the Yes campaign, but it is so addled with bluff and mendacity that no clear thinking person would actually accept their "arguments" but we live in the age of social media where any rationality stops at the front of the flatscreen.

[longer ron]

Salmond, if he gets his way, will inherit a divided nation. Divisions that will take generations to heal, if ever.

Indeed - the divisiveness may well be a huge problem for Scotland whichever way the vote goes !

Whatever my feelings about scottish independence - I could never vote for a dipstick like Salmon d :ugh:

Al R summed it up extremely well -

I suppose, the reality is, if you want independence in Scotland, don't vote for it because some toe rag legislator who wasn't good enough to get a proper job tells you it's a good idea.

[melmothtw]

I could never vote for a dipstick like Salmon

You're confusing a vote for independence with a vote for the SNP/Salmond. Interestingly, you would likely find that the SNP/Salmond vote would go down in post-independence elections as their raison d'etre had disappeared.

[longer ron]

I am not confusing anything young man ; )

As I said - Al R summed it up extremely well.

You cannot separate Salmon d from the vote because he is running the campaign and he is the 'gentleman' with no answers to all the really important questions ; )

[melmothtw]

Well, unfortunately for the Better Together campaign thousands of voters are able to separate Salmond from the vote because there are scores of non-SNP voters who are saying they will vote Yes,....young man.

[Ogre]

I've not been keeping up with the propaganda coming from either side, but from what I've seen on farious social media links from friends it seems to be SNP versus the rest. Scottish labour (which you would assume would be keen to promote their own cause) seem to be playing catch up and the Tories are automatically "the enemy".

Friends who are "Yes" voters don't like me using the term "propaganda", they are all fervent in their beliefs and very vocal at anyone raising points which contradict their opinions. But as others have said, the amount of anti-english sentiment which has been used in the campaign is staggering. If you believed half of what was written you would believe the English ate Scottish babies and lived in the lap of luxury and through the cumbs over the border.

And don't get me started on the paradise that Scotland will become because of the oil revenue.....

[Biggus]

melmothw,

You are of course correct, however, that is a distinction that I would suspect that a large majority of potential "yes" voters haven't made.

Of course it also means that all the comments/promises/commitments being made by the SNP could well not occur, and that the 600 odd page SNP document on a future Scotland is potentially a worthless piece of paper, nothing more than a manifesto for a potential future government, none of which may come to pass, and that the future of veterans pensions (despite perthsaints assurances otherwise) in an independent Scotland is unknown...


Which brings me back to where this thread started.

[melmothtw]

they are all fervent in their beliefs and very vocal at anyone raising points which contradict their opinions.

To be fair Ogre, that accusation can be just as easily leveled at those supporting the No campaign, as evidenced by just a cursory read of the majority of posts in this thread and the many others on the subject.

For what it's worth, I'm not Scottish, do not live in Scotland, and have no particular desire to see the UK broken up. If the Scots do vote Yes though, I will wish them the best, in all of our interests.

[longer ron]

Well, unfortunately for the Better Together campaign thousands of voters are able to separate Salmond from the vote because there are scores of non-SNP voters who are saying they will vote Yes,....young man.

Politicians of all parties rely on naivety and gullibility of the voters LOL

My 61 years in NSGB have left me a tad cynical about politics :)

I think salmon ds legacy to scotland is (unfortunately) going to be a very divided country - that has already happened - but could get much worse after the vote :ouch:

[melmothtw]

That's the nature of democracy longer ron. I can think of few political events more divisive than a US presidential campaign, but few would argue that's a reason not to hold them.

And don't think the promised EU referendum won't be divisive either, so maybe we shouldn't hold it?

[McGoonagall]

Which brings me back to where this thread started.

I asked a SNP MSP (on the street) about pensions and taxation if I worked in England and lived in Scotland. Also, would I be able to access my Scottish GP if my taxes went to Westminster. Also about double taxation (which I had to explain to her). The only answer I got was that it would be decided after the referendum. She was either totally ignorant of the manifesto or she merely wanted to carry on playing the populist 'Braveheart' approach to her campaigning. :ugh:

[longer ron]

And don't think the promised EU referendum won't be divisive either, so maybe we shouldn't hold it?

I doubt very much we will get a referendum but it would not be as divisive as the scottish vote.
There are many people already leaving scotland ahead of the vote because they are fed up with the outbreak of 'nationalism' and racism etc.
As I said previously - I have spoken to many working Scots and have not heard anybody support the split - not one !

[Biggus]

melmothw,

You say you are not Scottish, nor do you live in Scotland, so I can only assume (quite possibly incorrectly) that this subject is of passing academic or social interest to you, along with other national and world events. You certainly seem very vocal on the matter for someone not directly involved.

However, there are people posting on this thread who are currently living through this situation in Scotland, experiencing increasing social unrest, intimidation and discrimination on a daily basis. Maybe you know people who would consider selling their house, possibly at a loss, giving up their jobs, changing their children to a different education system by moving to a different country, all on a whim, or a fit of pique because they lost a vote or don't like a political leader - I don't. The people I know who would consider such actions would only do so after considerable thought, and only if they felt deep genuine concerns over the future for themselves and their loved ones.

[Hangarshuffle]

Because it will all become very acrimonious very shortly, like many divorces do. Leaving both sides hating the other.
To me, having been in both countries over August after decentish periods abroad, its very obvious (to see the opening and widening divisions on the islands that are Britain) and this will only continue after the poll (which will be won by the "yes" vote, clear as day).
This is going to launch a real period of soul searching and change within England. And who knows what the remainder of "Britain" will do?
You could aim the barrel of the gun right at the heart of the Conservative Party for this, IMHO. This has been coming for 35 years.
Federalism could and I think now, will end up being the way ahead for the remainder of Britain, consisting of Wales, Northern Ireland (almost impossible to fathom, for me, that one) and probably the larger area of the Midlands, the North of England ( basically a crescent shape Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield Leeds to Newcastle (like the rail and communication plan that has been so mooted recently and now we see why), plus London (practically a separate country in itself now anyway (like Singapore?), plus "the South East"(simply now a vassal to London) and finally plus good old horrible weirdo Cornwall.
Its a disaster and its coming.
Wonder if Cameron thinks it was a good idea to spend most of August chillaxing on holiday now?
And someone please wake up and tell the Queen. Her family will be out on their ear after this as well, mark my words.
Its a disaster. 300 years of up and down and it ends shortly, thus, under these dim twerps.
But nothing I can do anyway, nor you.Rant over and going back to work.
p.s. put your money into the Euro or Dollar.

[melmothtw]

melmothw,

You say you are not Scottish, nor do you live in Scotland, so I can only assume (quite possibly incorrectly) that this subject is of passing academic or social interest to you, along with other national and world events.

As a UK citizen who will undoubtedly be affected by the result of the referendum, yes or no, I can assure you Biggus that the subject is as relevant and as of much interest to me as it is to everyone else posting here.

along with other national and world events.

Not sure what you mean by this.

[clunckdriver]

I reapeat the gist of my previous post, as a Canadian who has been living with this this stupidity, and live with it on a daily basis, {forced to move, victimised by Surete du Quebec if one click over the speed limit, unable to put my children in French school in Quebec, the list goes on} We now reside in Ontario, in a "border town" where eighty percent of the patients in our local hospital are from across the border as very little of the services, be it health or whatever, still function "next door", we were also forced to move our aviation and manufactering companies due to endless harasment from the "Speach Police", for heavens sake, think before you leap, or the price will be devestating to civilised Scotish society.

[Biggus]

melmothw,

I meant that (I assumed), the issue of Scottish independence is but one of many issues, both national and international, that occupy your time/thoughts/energy on a daily basis.

As opposed to it being an issue that occupies your every waking moment to the exclusion of almost everything else...

[melmothtw]

clunk,

I'm not quite sure that your comparison with Quebec and Canada quite holds up. As I remember it, Quebec actually voted No to independence so with Quebec still an integral part of Canada I can't really see how your experiences of discrimination etc might translate over vis-a-vis England and an independent Scotland.

[melmothtw]

No Biggus, it doesn't occupy my every waking moment, but that doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion on the subject, nor that my opinion is any less valid than the next person's.

Someone mentioned on here earlier about the Yes campaign shouting down anyone who disagrees with them. Well, I'm not in either camp but please don't use that as an excuse to shout me down Biggus.

[draken55]

Speaking as a person who lives in Scotland, I have had only received the approved PR material delivered to my door via Royal Mail. No door step canvassers and no phone calls offering transport to the Voting Station.

It's obvious the Yes Campaign dominates the web and blogosphere but most people who will vote on the day will not form their opinion from such sources. It's also obvious that a really big push is being made for the "working class" vote in the normally staunch Labour heartlands. That's being done by an interesting alliance of SNP and Scottish Socialist Party activists promising the world in return for a Yes vote.

However, this whole process is opening a chasm that may never be closed and unless HMG is very careful, offering more powers to Edinburgh late in the day only serves to confirm the SNP case that post Devolution, real power still lies in London.

[melmothtw]

I have spoken to many working Scots and have not heard anybody support the split - not one !

So you've got nothing to worry about, longer ron.

I doubt very much we will get a referendum but it would not be as divisive as the scottish vote.
There are many people already leaving scotland ahead of the vote because they are fed up with the outbreak of 'nationalism' and racism etc

Yep, if there's one thing we can say with certainty about the proposed EU vote, it's that 'nationalism' and racism will play no part in it (you have read the Daily Mail, right?)

[longer ron]

I have spoken to many working Scots and have not heard anybody support the split - not one !


So you've got nothing to worry about, longer ron.

The damage is already done Melmoth !

There may be another factor that influences how people answer the poll questions... let us hope it is that !

[clunckdriver]

Melmothw, Yes PQ is still part of Confederation, but not really, its a typical Canadian compromise in which a series of goverments in Quebec stomp on anything which is not ordained as "pure Quebecois" the rest of the country turns a blind eye, so as to avoid troops on the streets again. Lets face it, when the "Speach Police" {yes, they REALLY do exist} tries to shut down an Italian resteraunt for using the word "Pasta" on the menu, then you know why most of the money/brains have bailed out long ago.By the way, both myself and my children speak French/English, the saving grace in this situation is so many Quebecers have gone West to partake of the oil boom and are seeing that the outside world is not as presented by the fanatics, thus with any kind of luck this may all go away given time, but it will take time, if indeed it ever takes place in part due to the lack of good language tuition in our school systems, the Swiss being a good example of how to do it.

[Biggus]

melmothw,

Once again you seem to read things into peoples comments that are not actually there. I am not trying to shout you down, and while my likely voting preference may be obvious, I am not aware of anything I have written on here that deliberately seeks to persuade people to vote one way or another. I was not aware of being on a soapbox.

My interest is simply in the situation regarding veterans pensions in a post independent Scotland.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Is one persons opinion worth more than anothers? Actually I'd say yes to that question. As just a couple of examples, the use of "expert" witnesses in court cases, Courtney Mil's opinion on fighter operations would be worth more than mine. Your opinion (whether it be yes or no) would appear not to based on direct experience of events on the ground in Scotland. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that my opinion is worth more than yours - just that not all opinions are equal. I'm sorry if you disagree with that, or feel I'm shouting you down, but it's my opinion...which no doubt under your values you have to at least respect if not agree with?

Yes, as a UK citizen you will be effected by the outcome, which seems somewhat ironic as not all UK citizens have a say in the matter, but nowhere near as much as someone living in Scotland.

Tone is often difficult to read in posts such as this, if you think I'm coming over as aggressive, shouting you down, disregarding your opinion, I can do nothing other than apologize. All I can say is that I'm trying to relate how this all feels to someone actually caught up in the heart of it to the extent that it dominates everything else and results in you facing potentially life changing decisions.

[melmothtw]

Those sound like issues that are peculiar to Quebec and Canada, and haven't surfaced in over a decade of Scottish or Welsh devolution. Can't really see it being an issue post independence IMHO.

[melmothtw]

No worries Biggus, I think one think we can both agree on is that it's an emotive issue for sure.

[clunckdriver]

Melmothw, I dont think your reciever is working, such issues are not peculier to the Canadian situation alone, the outflow of capitol, brains,talent , industry,will take place if this vote goes to the "yes" side, this has been the case in nearly all such {with one exception} events throughout history, Ive had the misfortune to be involved in two such situations, I sugest you read a bit of recent history, belive me, when you have seen whole streets of houses going for twenty cents on the dollar, including the one you are living in, it tends to make one very nervous about the UK/Scotish situation!

[newt]

I just wish I could sell my house and get the flock out of Scotland! Even in the Borders the atmosphere has changed already! Very aggressive Yes voters on the streets and No campaign posters being removed or defaced! As already said, the damage has been done and I can only see it getting worse!:E

[Boudreaux Bob]

So...does a "Yes" Vote on this mean house values in Scotland will go down? Might there be bargains to be had for those with some retirement money to invest?

Might one find a place on a River somewhere for a bit of fishing yet?

Or say a small Croft on Skye or out that way then perhaps?

Or should One continue to look at Ireland for that last place prior to the final Round Up?

[newt]

House prices are stagnant! Sales are non existent for anything over three hundred thousand! If the vote is Yes then even more will come on the market so I suspect there will be plenty of bargains around!

[melmothtw]

Nothing wrong with my receiver Clunck.

I'm not suggesting it will be all milk and honey should the yes vote win, but I'd suggest that predictions of civil strife and troops on the streets are probably just as wide of the mark.

Many countries haven't done so badly under independence, Canada among them. You might want to read up on some of that history yourself mate.

[clunckdriver]

Independance you say? Dear Lord we only repatriated our constitution a few years back under the government of PET, Quebec of course refused to sign so we are still not a unified nation, as for Canada doing well, the province I live in has a five billion dollar public dept and has no cash whatsoever to maintain our roads and other infrastructure, we only survive by selling our food and other natural resorces, along with our oil, to China and the USA at a fraction of true value'.Like many "Poms" you dont have a bloody clue about the real situation in Canada, now I must go and smash a few skulls on cute baby seals so we can eat this winter!

[melmothtw]

And yet despite all the hardships you describe, the Canadians don't seem to be beating a path back to reunification with the UK government. How odd.

Like many "Poms" you dont have a bloody clue about the real situation in Canada,


And yet you have no qualms in coming on here to lecture me about the situation in the UK. Oh, and I'm Welsh mate, so not a 'Pom'.

[chopper2004]

@Clunkdriver

Did not realise things were that bad almost sounds like out of Clive Cussler's Night Train which continues the adventure of Dirk Pitt and the NUMA Agency caught up between a Marxist and Sov backed Free Quebec movement led by a ruthless KGB trained terrorist in cahoots with a Quebec minister and on top of that a semi retired British Intelligence agent wanting to disrupt the US. Government and NUMA from salvaging a train and a ship in US and Canada which holds a document signed by Woodrow Wilson and the King of England handing over Canada to the USA.

In the beginning the Quebec terrorists are claimed to be responsible for many murders and act of terrorism including - shooting down of the Canadian PM aircraft with stolen British made hand held SAMS (fictionally named but probably based on the Blowpipe missile as the Canadian Army had them )

Anyhow what you also paint can be a bleak picture w.r.t the Scots ..in essence could it end up like the Troubles in NI?

What's the odds Scotland will go independent in reality .... And us lot down South will let it be?

Cheers

[clunckdriver]

Acording to my Kiwi wife, any person from your area is a "Pom", as for me I was born in the UK but left many many years ago, my father being Irish and an RFC vet {observer on BE2C and RE8s} it became obvious that I would be better of out of the place, however having spent many years on layovers there I must confess both my wife and I are thinking of spending the winters in the UK, OK, so it rains a bit, but as a wise man said, "you dont have to shovel rain!"The improvment in the quality of life in the UK since the late fifties far exceeds that in Canada, this is clearly reflectd in our imigration figures, most are coming from truly crappy places, very few these days from Europe or other advanced countries.

[Biggus]

Sorry for the slight thread drift, but maybe the OP has the right more than anyone else!


However, purely for the purposes of clarification, the term pommie/pommy seems to refer to someone who is British

Pommy: definition of Pommy in Oxford dictionary (British & World English) (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Pommy)

and would thus include the English, Welsh and Scots. ;)

[melmothtw]

However, purely for the purposes of clarification, the term pommie/pommy seems to refer to someone who is British

Pommy: definition of Pommy in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

and would thus include the English, Welsh and Scots.

pom definition, meaning - what is pom in the British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - Cambridge Dictionaries Online (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/pom)

[Biggus]

Oxford vs Cambridge eh?

Two different opinions - quite apt in the circumstances!!

[Roadster280]

What have English, Welsh and Canadians got to do with this? It's a Scottish issue. Let them make their decision, and then live with it. No-one else's business but theirs.

FWIW I think they will (and to some extent already have) crucify themselves, but it's their right to do what they think is the right thing to do. Not England, Wales or Canada. Or Ireland or the US.

Leave them to it.

[clunckdriver]

So Roadster, If California decides to join Mexico {again} you would not feel as an American feel that you could comment on this move? Somehow I doubt you would would take this position.Scotland is part of the UK, the Brits will be very much affected should UDI take place, they and the rest of the Comonwealth have every right to partake in the debate, just as we did when Rhodesia declared their independence. {and look what a bloody shambles that turned out to be}

[Tankertrashnav]

What have English, Welsh and Canadians got to do with this? It's a Scottish issue. Let them make their decision, and then live with it. No-one else's business but theirs.

The trouble is, Roadster, the decision affects us in the rest of the UK to a very great extent. Just one thing which has been mentioned many times, but say you were a Labour supporter (I'm not btw!). Scottish Independence would remove approximately 40 Labour MPs from the Westminster parliament at a stroke, and see Labour's chances of getting back into government vanishing into the distant future (hooray!).

Similarly its not something thats going to be just decided by "the Scots" (this has already been covered). Only those resident and registered to vote in Scotland (including thousands of English, Welsh and Northern Irish) will be able to vote. On the other hand Scots living outside of Scotland wont have a say. This may come as a surprise to US citizens, who can vote postally wherever in the world they may currently reside, but that's the way Wee Eck wanted it, so that's the way it's going to be!

[Courtney Mil]

Such a divisive issue. Understandably, the subject drifts from the OP's idea to the usual highly charged arguments. And why not? As long as we can all let it go when the time is right.

Anyway, now that Perthsaint is on holiday, I would like to restate my answer to the original post:

Not knowing quite how the political promises from either side will come true and given that YES is quite likely, I need to safeguard my income. A significant part of that is my RAF pension. Currently it is paid into our long-standing Scottish bank account. The nice people there were unable to say that my income would be safe going through them, which was very honest.

Would I feel safe with my pension going from the UK to Scotland (with no idea what the currency might be or the exchange rate or transfer fees) and then to France (same again). Well, honestly, what would you do?

To look after my family, I see no option than to move my money out of Scotland.

[melmothtw]

Some reasoned and well considered thoughts on how the different people of these Isles might live together post independence there IG.

[Courtney Mil]

Mel, it seems to bring out the worst in people. Hardly surprising. It's a big issue with way too many uncertainties. And it's uncertainty that makes me want to play safe. I would irresponsible to do anything else.

[ImageGear]

Mel - I've followed the reasoned and well considered posts on here until I'm up to the nostrils.

I'm ex-RAF and Yorkshire, and I know what it is like to struggle on a low pension. So I could use a bit of slack...on the other hand...

In my book - Independence is Independence...this means that one is purposely "not-dependent", or a "dependant". Being dependent to some degree is not "Independence".

One is either one or the other.

Now - on another note, if the funding of my pension was irrevocably bound into some relatively obscure "post independence" financial strategy I would be seriously worried about my future health and wellbeing.

Therefore I pose a question, if Scotland, as a nation, needed to take out some income protection insurance to cover post-independence risks, what would their terms and premiums look like, or would they be refused?

Considering the level of risk as I see it - I would be declining to quote.

Imagegear

[melmothtw]

Ok Image Gear, fair enough. I get that it's an emotive issue and that people are worried about the effects on their livelihoods and pensions. I guess we're in for a very interesting few weeks (and beyond depending on how things pan out in the vote).

Best

[Roadster280]

Yes, OK, fair points.

California is welcome to (re-)join Mexico as far as I am concerned. Very strange people over there.

But yes, I get the point about the Labour party being in Scheiße Straße if they go. And also that had this issue been on the table at the last election, there might be a different make-up of Parliament (Westminster).

I still feel though that if they want to do their own thing, there's not much to be done about it. You can't on the one hand say to Argentina that the Falklanders want to remain British and as long as that holds true they will be, whilst not doing the same thing with the Scots (albeit they are voting on NOT being British).

I suppose it is a game of damage limitation in Westminster. I think UK will have the last laugh though, if they go. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it, as they say.

[melmothtw]

I do agree with you Roadster that the vote is for the people of Scotland, regardless of who else in the UK it affects.

The UK is set to have a vote on whether to stay in the EU or not, and you can imagine the reaction if it became known that the vote was to be extended to the entire EU (it would, after all, affect them also). Just imagine the situation if the UK voted to leave, but Germany, France, etc, said no, and we had to stay (doesn't sound too democratic).

[Al R]

The so called EU 'Brexit' scenario is already being planned. It isn't just the Scotland vote that causes financial institutions concerns - if anything, that potential impact is quite limited in comparison. This ft link should be a free preview peek.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/57b39eda-2958-11e4-8b81-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3CeUrioZa

[Courtney Mil]

Good point, well made, Mel.

And you raise the next issue for us in France. We could end up being able to fly to Scotland as part of the EU, but not to the UK. Well, not without a visa or something. And then we could have Marine Le Pen's government, who won't want us either. Bugger.

[engineer(retard)]

I would have thought that if the CU argument is out of the way and asset division is agreed, then the Scottish Government should fund the military pensions for Scottish passport holders from their defence budget as the UK does.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

In the recent Quebec Provincial Elections, there was outspoken support by the Parti Quebecois for another Independence Referendum. Most opinion polls across Canada, unlike previous years, showed an almost complete fatigue over the Independence issue, perhaps summarised as "So what, we're tired of it, let them leave if they want; we don't care any more".
The PQ was dumped out of power after 1 term (very rare in Canada), got their lowest vote since inception, and the Leader lost her seat.

One wonders how many Scots would vote to leave if the rUK attitude was "Byeee!", as opposed to the last minute concessions and near panic we seem to be getting.

[ShyTorque]

This may come as a surprise to US citizens, who can vote postally wherever in the world they may currently reside, but that's the way Wee Eck wanted it, so that's the way it's going to be!

But then, once a US citizen you always remain so in that you remain liable for US taxation irrespective of where you live.

Watch out the Scots, double taxation, as per the USA, may be deemed necessary!

Seems to me that the Scottish Separatist movement is being orchestrated by someone with a personal grudge against England and therefore a personal agenda. I have seen no evidence of a post separatist strategy to finance Scotland. Many repetitive, stonewalling answers from the sour-faced Salmond, but no sign of a policy and no business plan. If there is one, he has perhaps deliberately kept the less than palatable detail out of the equation.

The voters should take into consideration that this will truly be an occasion when the phrase "you deserve what you voted for" is very, very, appropriate.

Then watch out for the asylum seekers / economic migrants come clambering over the newly rebuilt Hadrian's Wall in years to come...... :}

[dagenham]

ShyTorque

that is not strictly true... there is a joint taxation agreement between the US and the UK. You don't get taxed twice and frankly it can be quite beneficial if you are paying tax in the US. I get credit for paying tax in the UK and the US with both authorities. I get a nice cheque from uncle sam most years based on the tax I still pay in the US even though now UK resident. For example I can use my wife's tax allowance as we file jointly and my offspring are tax deductible. It either feels unfair at times or very generous and I am sure it is just there to keep accountants out of trouble

You can relinquish your us citizen ship but it is difficult. My daughter for example is a us citizen and has had to start filing tax returns at 16 to maintain her obligations and enjoy the benefits of both worlds.

Regarding Scotland, I would imagine it would be a no brainer to have the same arrangement with the UK and as above the individual both exchequers will manage it.

Regarding the EU and scotland, I can't seeing this being as easy as Salmond makes out. There are so many independence issues in the EU that I am sure it will set the wrong precedent. i.e. Basques and Spain, Danzig etc and not forgetting if the desire for Turkey to join is still there the Kurds. Not forgetting the mess that is eastern europe who have their own issues.

The only good news is the lothian question is sorted out once and for all and english MPs can decide what happens in england. It also makes it harder for idiots like Miliband to get in and it might bring back some conviction politics back.........

Frankly I don't think this has at all been well thought through and if the scots do go there own way... be careful for what you wish for.

[ShyTorque]

Dagenham, the problem is, like everything behind the "Yes" vote, nothing about taxation has been even discussed in such detail, let alone cast in stone.

Scotland may find itself in difficult financial conditions for a whole host of reasons and once the plug has been pulled, no-one knows what will happen.

If Scotland really thinks that the present position can be no worse than under the present arrangement, then I say let it find out.

But I don't want the rest of UK being put in the situation where it has to "do a Merkel" and bail them out of debt when / if Scotland finds it's all going down the pan.

[Flying Lawyer]

ShyTorque
Seems to me that the Scottish Separatist movement is being orchestrated by someone with a personal grudge against England and therefore a personal agenda.

Someone? Personal grudge? Personal agenda?

The Scottish National Party has been in existence for more than 80 years, has consistently campaigned for Scottish independence and is the largest political party in Scotland in terms of membership. The primary reason it has taken so long to get to this point is that, for decades, it was impossible to break the Labour strongholds in Scotland. There was once a suggestion that money could be saved by weighing votes in Scotland instead of the pointless exercise of counting them. :)

The SNP has been continuously represented at Westminster since Winnie Ewing was elected as MP for Hamilton in 1967. She became only the second nationalist MP, joining the late Gwynfor Evans who had been elected as the first Plaid Cymru (National party of Wales) MP the previous year.
As a teenager I was proud to be one of a group who carried the truly great man shoulder high following the declaration that he had won with 16,179 votes – a number indelibly etched in my memory. I still treasure that moment, almost half a century later.
The movement for independence has always been stronger in Scotland. Although Plaid Cymru is still an active political party, Wales clearly has no desire to be independent; the Welsh are patriotic but not nationalist.
Perhaps because Wales was conquered 171 years before Scotland so the Welsh have had longer to get used to it. ;)


FL

[Lima Juliet]

The trouble is that the great Scottish unwashed have turned their backs on Labour and are now listening to Wee-Eck instead. My brother in law, a proud Scot, has already transferred all his financial assets out of Scotland - he has 7 figures+ to ship out and all his local business mates have done this as well. He has a plan to sell his 4 businesses for next-to-nothing just to get out of Dodge and has sold 2 of his 3 properties in Scotland already. He fears that if 'yes' don't win this time, then they will keep chipping away at it until they do.

So what is going to be left in Scotland if it goes to 'yes' - lots of these...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/03/article-2619458-1D5BFFC200000578-607_634x563.jpg

The rest of the UK's GDP will instantly rise by ~£120 per head, Scotland's finances will collapse (a great opportunity for the Rest of the UK to invest!), the people of Orkney & Shetland will seek 'self determination' as part of the Rest of the UK (they are staunch 'no' voters) and it will set it up like the Isle of Mann with oil reserves. This will leave the great Scottish unwashed wallowing in their own mess and then they will start to migrate to the Rest of the UK's benefit system as Wee-Eck's money runs out. The Tories will get another term in 2015 as Labour instantly lose 47 seats and the Lib Dems a further 11. Bonnie Scotland's cities becoming economic wastelands, the Highlands being largely unaffected and what has this got to do with Mil Aviation? Well I predict significant unrest in Scotland once the honeymoon of a potential 'yes' vote has won - not quite civil war, but not far off. It might also spark off Northern Ireland again as well. So I suspect that some of our Mil Aviation might be coming home from the great big sandpits of the world to look after our interests for a bit...

...here's hoping I am wrong! :sad:

LJ

[ShyTorque]

Someone? Personal grudge? Personal agenda?

The Scottish National Party has been in existence for more than 80 years, has consistently campaigned for Scottish independence and is the largest political party in Scotland in terms of membership. The primary reason it has taken so long to get to this point is that, for decades, it was impossible to break the Labour strongholds in Scotland. There was once a suggestion that money could be saved by weighing votes in Scotland instead of the pointless exercise of counting them.

FL, I said orchestrated, rather as in the man waving the baton. Did you not see the recent "debate" (debacle) between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond? The latter seemed to provide no proper answer for any of the questions put to him by either Darling or the "No" voters or "undecided". He either didn't know the answer, or didn't want to give it. All he could do was repeat his non-committal statements time after time.

As I am not of Scottish descent (or Welsh, for that matter) I don't really care whether they stay as part of UK or not. I just don't want to have to bail them out if it all goes pear shaped.

I'm fully aware that the SNP goes back a long way. It might be worth considering why those voting for the Labour party didn't vote for them instead in the past (the SNP). It might have something to do with jobs..

[TomJoad]

Well as a veteran currently in receipt of a mil pension I will be staying. My pension was accrued through contract with the UK crown. The UK crown, the rUK will be the legal inheritor, will remain responsible for payment, Now however that is to be done, level transfer of funds, agreement transfer to Scottish government - this will be determined during the settlement negotiations - we know not at the moment, of course we don't. Does it frighten me, no, does it concern me, yes, a little but I'm not loosing sleep - I have faith both sides will honour the contract. Many of the other issues raised are already known, we already have arrangements for those veterans living abroad who chose to have their pension paid in the local currency - they do so accepting the tax regime that this entails. At the end of the day, we all have the choice to move or stay, you could not drag me away from here.

Tom

[Boudreaux Bob]

Then watch out for the asylum seekers / economic migrants come clambering over the newly rebuilt Hadrian's Wall in years to come.....

From what I have seen of both sides of said Wall....I suppose the Scots would help pay for the Reconstruction of the Wall. A proper Wall works both ways you know.

Just as Fences make good neighbors so might a really good Wall.

[Scottie66]

I'm a Scot, my father is a Scot, my grandfather was a Scot, our Scottish lineage goes back hundreds of years and I consider myself British...but I have no vote as I currently live abroad.

In the event of a Yes vote what sort of passport will I get when the current one expires? Although my money is safe(ish) off-shore, my pension is paid in to a bank account in England. What happens if I'm forced to become Scottish rather than British, will I still be able to retain that bank account. Here [in UAE] we need residency visas, etc to open an account.

I know we are all discussing the major issues of currency, Defence, NHS, etc but the little details have the potential to make many peoples' lives a living hell in the event of a Yes vote!

I note that the Immigration Minister has offered to send the fence from the NATO summit to Calais. Perhaps the Borders might be a better location come the 18th...

[sitigeltfel]

Then watch out for the asylum seekers / economic migrants come clambering over the newly rebuilt Hadrian's Wall in years to come..... They will be sore disappointed when they discover they have still some way to go before reaching the border. Unless Salmond is thinking of a land grab.

[Al R]

Does this mean we could revoke James Naughtie's work permit?

[Mickj3]

I understand that at present if one is resident in Aus or NZ ones pension is frozen at the level it was at when one left the UK. Will this be the case for those living in Scotland should the jocks become independent?

[Army Mover]

I understand that at present if one is resident in Aus or NZ ones pension is frozen at the level it was at when one left the UK. Will this be the case for those living in Scotland should the jocks become independent?
I can't think why it should be any different; it would set a precedent for others.

[Voxpop]

It is the State Pension which does not get increases if you live in certain countries. The AFPS benefits are treated the same wherever you live (ie. increase with CPI). Haven't heard of plans to freeze the State Pension for those living in Scotland.

[dagenham]

Shy torque

Agree and we are on the same page

I don't see why now we are offering even more concessions to stay as one country. They already get four hundred quid a year per person more than the rest of the uk. I can think of other more needy places than Scotland for this money.

Perhaps it is now for the best, if I was in Devon or Cornwall I would start stocking up with iodine

[engineer(retard)]

Well as a veteran currently in receipt of a mil pension I will be staying. My pension was accrued through contract with the UK crown.

Our service to the crown also included Scotland, so debts, assets and liabilities will have to be negotiated and our pensions are a future liability paid for against the defence budget which I am sure the SNP have factored into their White Paper.

[Tankertrashnav]

The Tories will get another term in 2015 as Labour instantly lose 47 seats and the Lib Dems a further 11.

That's not quite true. Should the vote go Yes, the proposed timetable sees Scotland actually going independent in March 2016, (although that seems optimistic to me). Thus next year's general election in May will be fought in all the current seats including those in Scotland. It could well result in a small Labour majority, which would put Ed Milliband in the position of a prime minister who is on death row, figuratively speaking, with the date of his execution, when he loses those Scottish seats, already set. What would be the validity of any legislation put in place by such a lame duck government? The rest of the UK would be without effective government for 10 - 12 months or so.

[Willard Whyte]

The rest of the UK would be without effective government for 10 - 12 months or so.

Just like the last 17 years...

[Biggus]

Tanker,

This situation has not gone unnoticed at Westminster, like many issues I don't expect it to be addressed until after the result of the referendum, but I know at least one suggestion that has been put forward is to delay the Westminster elections until May 16 if this situation comes to pass!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27129813

[BEagle]

The effect of the Scottish National Socialists' Braveheart claptrap is already being felt in the world of finance:

From BBC News: The pound has fallen to its lowest level in 10 months amid uncertainty about Scotland's future within the UK.

Shares in Scottish-based firms dominated the top fallers on the stock market. Edinburgh-based Standard Life fell 3%, Royal Bank of Scotland slipped 2.4% and Lloyds Banking Group, which owns Bank of Scotland and Scottish Widows, dropped 2.7%.

Perth-based energy supplier SSE, Glasgow pumps specialist Weir Group and fund manager Aberdeen Asset Management also all fell between 1.5% and 1.9%


Why vote for something which will simply bankrupt you? And more to the point, why doesn't the whole of the UK have any vote in this potentially ruinous folly?

[melmothtw]

And more to the point, why doesn't the whole of the UK have any vote in this potentially ruinous folly?

Just my opinion, mind...

The UK is set to have a vote on whether to stay in the EU or not, and you can imagine the reaction if it became known that the vote was to be extended to the entire EU (it would, after all, affect them also). Just imagine the situation if the UK voted to leave, but Germany, France, etc, said no, and we had to stay (doesn't sound too democratic).

[Roland Pulfrew]

Just my opinion, mind...

Well there is a bit of a difference. The UK is a single country, the EEC/EU is not a single country, it is a lose affiliation of many countries. No member state has the right of interference in another member state's internal business. What we have here is more akin to Yugoslavia and its disintegration - so very, very different.

[melmothtw]

the EEC/EU is not a single country, it is a lose affiliation of many countries.

I thought the concern (certainly among those looking to get out) is that it's no longer such a loose affiliation.

I accept that there are differences, but the general principal stands. Do folks really think that the issue would be settled if Scotland voted to leave, but the rest of the UK voted to keep them in?

Sorry, but the comparison to the disintegration of Yugoslavia is alarmist (and lazy) clap-trap. None of the conditions that existed in Milosevic's Yugoslavia in the late 80s and early 90s exist in the UK today (as evidenced by the fact that the UK government has allowed the Scottish referendum to take place in the first place - not a privilege afforded to the Yugoslav republics by Belgrade).

Whatever happens following the referendum (yes or no), a Balkan-style war is not on the cards.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Beags,

As you were around for the Great Depression and all.....and knowing the Stock Market operates on two emotions, those being Greed and Fear....perhaps you would describe exactly what will happen that will "Bankrupt" us all should the "Yes" Side win in the Referendum?

[cornish-stormrider]

Well, I said I would not be back to the hamster wheel thread on Jet Blast, and I have not. Yet here we had a mostly civilised discussion around some of the issues, then someone naughty pitches up and gets thirty days in the cooler for his shenanigans - thanks Wholi....

now it has been commented that us'm yokels down here need to start stocking up on the iodine, why? are more of you suspecting the move of the "Moscow Option" down to Guzz?

Let's look at this with a bit of rationality HMB Devonport and the associated big ole dockyard owned by Babcock already have the most nuke experience.

We can fit all the Bombers here without much work.

There is a big weapon store just round the corner, it has direct water and rail links to the yard. It also used to store nukes....

Where else will everything go?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Whatever happens following the referendum (yes or no), a Balkan-style war is not on the cards.

And I never suggested that it would Mellie; reading things in one way not the way they were intended (very lazy thinking) but I will accept that perhaps I should have used the Czech and Slovak example instead. What I was referring to (obviously too subtly) was the disintegration of one country that was made up of a number of nations.

[1.3VStall]

general principal stands

melthmothw, I have never heard of general principal - for which side is he standing?

Now had you written "general principle" your post would have made more sense - and been literate!

[Courtney Mil]

Good God. You guys are starting sound ridiculous. Look at the facile squabbles you've resorted to.

[Shack37]

Good God. You guys are starting sound ridiculous. Look at the facile
squabbles you've resorted to.


Indeed, after an important question by the OP and a good start it´s beginning to go the way of the hamsterwheel.:rolleyes:

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed. Hardly surprising. It's a emotive issue. But the politics do tend to get nasty and we're an aviation forum. No harm in debating surrounding issues, as the OP had started, but let's all keep it cool here.

If folk are looking for a good fight on poli matters, I'm told there's good action on Jet Blast.

[Tankertrashnav]

Biggus - thanks for that link - very interesting. Personally I would think the best plan would be for Scotland to lose all its Westminster seats immediately a YES vote was confirmed, but then as I'm not a Labour voter and no fan of the coalition I would, wouldn't I? !

Getting back nearer to the original question, there were a number of Scots (not military veterans as far as I know) on tonight's Newsnight who expressed an intention to move South as soon as possible after a Yes vote. Looks as though the previously mentioned fall in house prices North of the border could well happen.

[cokecan]

my ex-wife, now living in the central belt with my daughter, has suggested that she will be keeping the situation under review...

both are, to those around them, Scottish - accents etc.. but my ex says she's increacingly concerned not just about anti-English sentiment among 'yes' voters, but even worse, about the divisiveness of the campaign and whether its going to be possible to continue to live in a community riven with deep antagonism towards the 'no' side.

she's not, to my knowledge got stickers on her car or in her windows, but she's heard the word 'traitor' and 'sell-out' used about local 'no' people who dare to. its not the old hot-heads and bar-stool bravehearts, its normal family and friends who previously wouldn't have said boo to a goose..

[mad_jock]

Tanker its already started but selling houses is slow understandably and a lot of offers in Scotland are having a referendum clause built in ie if its yes the offer is invalid.

There are a lot though who are shifting assets to UKr locations. ie savings, brokers, licenses basically everything that we can so its not under the umbrella of Scotland.

Some of it is just address changes to relatives in the south but others are changing bank accounts.

All I have left now is my drivers license attached to an address in Scotland.

[The Old Fat One]

Getting back nearer to the original question, there were a number of Scots (not military veterans as far as I know) on tonight's Newsnight who expressed an intention to move South as soon as possible after a Yes vote. Looks as though the previously mentioned fall in house prices North of the border could well happen.

Since I really have no interest in the political, I have focussed on precisely this point in my occasional social media dalliances....my posts have been roundly ignored, in the heat and fever surrounding the emotional stuff.
Human beings come in all shapes and sizes, but those that generate wealth (for themselves and others) are generally pretty switched on and always streetwise survivors. Everybody in the UK is currently British, so everybody in the UK is going to have the freedom to make some sort of choice (although residential circumstances will play a part, of course).

Ask yourself this then...a likely outcome (and risk takers always play the probability) is a Scottish lurch to the left and and an English lurch to the right.

Which way do you think the money will flow? It won't just be wealthy, prosperous, "English" heading south...there will be plenty of wealthy, prosperous "Scots" doing likewise.

As to the structural changes to our political system...I see two possibilities:

18 months of chaos

or

Maybe, just maybe, parliament will recognise the dangers of uncertainty to rUK and unite in an informal coalition to take the initiative and expedite the radical changes that will be needed.

Now would that not be cool...

Imagine what would go through AS's head if he woke up from his post YES hangover, to be greeted with the news...yeah, you're not getting currency union, we already know what we are doing with Trident (and the rest of the armed forces), the next election will be May 2016, so no more interfering in rUK. Anything else...no, shut the door on your way out then.

[melmothtw]

All this talk of people leaving if the election doesn't go their way sounds familiar

BBC NEWS | VOTE2001 | Are you still here? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/vote2001/hi/english/newsid_1320000/1320850.stm)

[The Old Fat One]

^^

Apples and oranges mate...and it's not even close. You need to go and research the Irish Free state and/or Indian Independence it you want to find out the sorts of things that WILL occur.

And the people I'm talking about usually don't give a **** about politics...so it is squat to do with the political outcome (and it's a referendum, not an election).

The people I'm talking about will be looking at what is best for themselves and their families....and that is all.

[melmothtw]

I don't think the 'difference' between an election and a referendum is really what's at issue here.

Of course, the celebs who always threaten to leave are just thinking about the financial circumstances of their families also.

You seriously believe that civil war and massacres will follow a yes vote? Should I not also research the Velvet Divorce between the Czech Republic and Slovakia, mate?

[mad_jock]

no not initially.

In the event of a no vote I can see some quite nasty civil unrest.

The problem will be how the population reacts when it finds out that its been lied to.

And linked with the fact that they will feel external sources will have colluded to not give them their utopia.

This includes scots that have asset stripped there holdings in Scotland.

And it is happening, amongst my friends already over half a million of taxable income has departed Scotland residence and that is less than 10 people.

[Red Line Entry]

In the event of a Yes vote, I think the problem will be in a few years time if and when things get economically difficult for the Scots. Scottish MPs will portray their problems as the result of English intransigence over the negotiated independence settlement.

And you know what, in the event the Scots leave, I would want Westminster to drive a bloody hard bargain. Salmond will be in an interesting negotiating position; what's he going to do - not leave?

[ORAC]

And you know what, in the event the Scots leave, I would want Westminster to drive a bloody hard bargain. Salmond will be in an interesting negotiating position; what's he going to do - not leave?

Scottish independence: a defining moment for England, too (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11081953/Scottish-independence-a-defining-moment-for-England-too.html)

......Much of what Mr Salmond hopes for in the proposed post-independence negotiations, such as currency union and his ill-defined “social union”, depend crucially on English goodwill. Such goodwill might be a commodity in distinctly short supply if Scotland votes Yes on September 18.

For the most likely long-term effect of a Scottish Yes vote is a swing to an English nationalist government in the rest of the United Kingdom, a government determined to drive a hard bargain with Scotland in the post-independence negotiations under the tight timetable that Mr Salmond proposes – precisely the opposite to the prospectus the separatists are offering. And there is a Chinese saying to the effect that the man with the tightest timetable also needs the deepest pocket........

[melmothtw]

It will be interesting to see how the English nationalist government will go down in Wales and NI. Such a knee jerk reaction would only hasten the end of what's left of the UK.

Of course, this could all be academic and on the 19th it will be a case of 'as you were'.

[Biggus]

Whatever the vote - it'll never be a case of "as you were" again, at least not in Scotland. This issue has created a lot of antagonism, passion, emotion, argument and even violence, divided families and communities and opened up rifts that will take a lot time to heal, if ever.


That's half the point!!

[melmothtw]

It will be 'as you were' in terms of the UK still existing, but I accept there will be consitutional changes in the direction of greater home rule and perhaps even federalism (something I don't happen to think is such a bad thing).

As to the rifts and schisms that you say have opened up in Scottish society, I'll have to defer to you on that as I don't live there.

[Biggus]

No you don't - which is another very valid point to consider when people read some of the comments posted on here, both by yourself and some others, you have no first hand experience of the situation on the ground.

[melmothtw]

Well, if "first hand experience of the situation on the ground" is a requirement for posting Biggus there's going to be a LOT of posts on this and other threads that will need deleting.

As I've said previously, my interest in the subject and 'right' to post here comes from being a citizen of the UK who will be affected by the referendum in the same way as the vast majaroty of those offering their opinions in this forum.

PS; The last time I checked, Scotland never was in the Roman Empire which leads to wonder where you're posting from...

[oxenos]

It is not only veterans living in Scotland, but all pensioners, who need be concerned about the financial implications. The stock market is dropping, and the sterling exchange rate is slipping. The first affects our investment income, and the incomes to our (non-service) pension funds, the latter has an enormous affect on those living outside the U.K., and a lesser affect on those of us who buy foreign currency for holidays.
This is already happening, simply because the opinion polls show that a yes vote is a possibility.
If it actually happens,the effect will be many times worse.
In the event of a no vote, the whole issue will be raised again in another 5 years, causing more turmoil, unless the Scots decide to get rid of Salmond and his crew, and that looks unlikely.

[Biggus]

mel,

If you read my post fully, you will see that I referred to both yourself and others who aren't actually living in Scotland.

Neither did I say that you and such people couldn't post on the subject, so where did that comment come from? I simply said that readers should take into consideration any lack of first hand experience when weighing up someones comments, a perfectly reasonable suggestion I would have thought.

You seem to have a track record of (almost deliberately?) misreading both mine, and other peoples, posts on pprune. I would have thought it was also blindingly obvious from my posts, if you actually read them correctly, that I live in Scotland at the moment!

[melmothtw]

If you read my post fully, you will see that I referred to both yourself
and others who aren't actually living in Scotland


Thanks Biggus, I got that. I was answering for myself.

Neither did I say that you and such people couldn't post on the subject, so where did that comment come from? I simply said that readers should take into consideration any lack of first hand experience when weighing up someones comments, a perfectly reasonable suggestion I would have thought.

I read your comment otherwise, but happy to accept your clarification. No big deal.


You seem to have a track record of (almost deliberately?) misreading both
mine, and other peoples, posts on pprune.


I think what you meant to say was that I have a track record of disagreeing with both yours, and other peoples, post on pprune. That's not the same as misreading your posts, 'almost deliberately' or otherwise.

if you actually read them correctly, that I live in Scotland at the
moment!

It was your Location, rather than than your posts, that made me wonder where your were. Again though, happy to accept you live in Scotland if you say so.

[mad_jock]

biggus your getting wound up by a standard cybernats tactic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMnPK3hCOU

This will allow you to spot the more obvious ones.

They have moved on from when this video was made.

[melmothtw]

If that's aimed at me MJ, you should know that I'm most definitely not a 'cybernat'. Although I understand why many in Scotland would like independence, personally I would be sad to see the end of the UK (and like others, more than a little worried as to what it might mean for me financially).

Dont confuse disagreeing with trolling.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Anti-English sentiment in Scotland.....now that is a really new situation isn't it?

It is not like you two groups have not had at each other in past years or anything.

[longer ron]

Works both ways Bob - when I moved to England in 1965 my introduction to the english education system was an interview with the fat slob of a headmaster at my new school - his opening line was ''I hate effing Jocks''...

nice guy

[The Old Fat One]

You seriously believe that civil war and massacres will follow a yes vote

Since that seems to have been aimed at a post I made, and since I have never posted anything remotely like that, nor do I believe that such outcomes are credible, I'm struggling to see how you are not just trolling.

To be clear...

My posts are apolitical. I don't care about the outcome of the referendum and I don't consider it my business. It is referendum about national identity and therefore a matter for the ethnic jocks. I have a vote (I reside in Scotland) but I will not use (that is my democratic choice yes) and I will except the democratic outcome...because that is what democrats do.

My point is about human behaviour...and btw, nobody has to leave anywhere...it's a matter of nationality, residence and tax domicile. I can stay up here as an ex-pat, and except whatever tax arrangements come to be.

At the moment, we are all British (check your passport). Assuming a yes vote (to close to call now) sometime around March 2016, we will all become something else, because Great Britain will cease to exist and morph in something else (for the semantics who need a label, I suspect and believe, us Brits will just stay the same - British - and the jocks will become Scottish.

But here is the key point...both "nations" are and will remain democratic and therefore in the gap between Sept 2014 and Mar 2016 all those of wealth and means (ie all those who are free chose) can pick their future nationality with complete freedom of action. I am guaranteed right of Scottishness if I wish (it's already legislated for). Much as I like Munro's, 16 year old Lagavulin and Haggis, there is no chance I be buying a kilt. Not because I'm ethnically English, but because I've no wish to live in the socialist nation i think Scotland could become (note...not WILL....COULD...I'm not willing to take the risk).

I suspect many a like-minded wealthy jock will be having the same thoughts. And comparing it with an election is way off. This thing is way bigger than a mere election.

[newt]

So you moved back to Scotland as soon as you could then longer Ron?

[melmothtw]

Your post Old Fat One


You need to go and research the Irish Free state and/or Indian Independence it you want to find out the sorts of things that WILL occur.

To what exactly then were you referring when you talked about the aftermath of the Irish and Indian independence votes, if not civil war and massacres?

[Herod]

My (non-British) wife asked two questions which I couldn't answer.
1. What are the Government afraid of, which is getting them in such a tizzy?
2. What hold have the Scots got over the Government that leads to said tizzy?
They already get more money spent on them per head than any other region in UK, and have control over a lot of spending (free prescriptions, no tuition fees, etc), and in the event of a "No" vote are promised even more. Seems Salmond might get the "devo-max" he wanted as an option on the ballot anyway. Simple question...why?

[The Old Fat One]

I was talking about the formation of new countries, the rights of citizenship and the transfer of wealth. Primarily however, I am making two points...

Facing new opportunities, human beings will behave in unexpected ways.

and

If the UK splits in to two countries, wealthy people (and by this I include anybody of means to upsticks and move) will go the country where their wealth cna best be protected and/or matured.

My reason for mentioning those two examples was by way of demonstrating that this event is nothing like a general election...I would have that would be obvious to all.

[melmothtw]

Well Old Fat One, maybe it was you using an example of two of the most traumatic and violent independence processes of recent decades that threw me.

You could, of course have cited far more harmonious splits, such as Australia, Canada, etc, but then I don't suppose they would have suited your doom and gloom agenda.

As for you saying;


To be clear...

My posts are apolitical. I don't care about the outcome of the referendum...


Your following comment that

I've no wish to live in the socialist nation i think Scotland could become (note...not WILL....COULD...I'm not willing to take the risk).

Suggests you care more than you're letting on...

[mad_jock]

''I hate effing Jocks''

I seem to remember a certain RSM saying the same thing to a group of us on attachment.

Our Staffy's reply of "well it looks like your mum didn't mind them ginger bollocks err Sir." He claims he never spotted the crown wrist strap until after he said it. And it was a bit rude to just walk up and utter such a nasty thing without introducing yourself.

Really did cement the working relationship. Thankfully there 2ic was a fully paid up member of the porridge wog in an English Regiment club and managed to keep us away from his evil mits for the 3 weeks.

[clunckdriver]

MelmothW, Canada harmonius split? You jest of course, or have not read our past and recent histories, but then what would I know, I only live here, that dead body in the trunk of a car two streets away from our house was not really one of our most popular and progresive cabinet members, must have been a plant by the Federal Government! If you must make statements about us, for Petes sake get you facts right! And by the way, Quebec has still not signed Meech Lake .

[NutLoose]

I have to admit I have finally agreed with one thing Salmond said, and that is he thinks the MP's are running scared with all this winching the Scottish Satire up on all public buildings and promising the bribes over extra devolution.

Personally if they vote no, I would close their assembly, sack the lot of them and devolve power back to Westminster, after all they would have voted to stay as part of the UK.

[melmothtw]

Hello again Clunk. You'll have to forgive me, as the history of Canada didn't feature too highly on the National Curriculum when I was going to school. If truth be told, I don't really care about the history of Canada and was only using it as an example of an independence process that did not result in carnage and bloodshed.

If, as you suggest, this is not the case then I will apologise again and be sure to read up on the Canadian Civil War and post-independence massacres.

No doubt my comparison with Australia was erroneous too, and someone will shortly be on here to inform me of the great Australian genocide that followed that country's separation from Britain.

BTW, sorry to hear about the dead body in the trunk of the car near your home. Fascinating story, though no idea what it has to do with Canadian independence from Britain.

[clunckdriver]

Melmothw, It seems your mind is made up and you dont want the facts if they dont agree with your restricted view of our nation. The body in the trunk was that of Pierre Laport, certainly one of our best senior politicians to come along post war,{ choked to death by his own religious neck chain} and by the way, Mr Cross, the UK Trade Envoy ,was kidnapped and held by the FLQ , his life was only saved by the Federall Government alowing these scum scum safe passage to Cuba, judging by the hooligans behavior north of the border its more than posible that similar events will indeed take place, it never ceases to amaze me how little some in the UK know about the rest of the world, maybe too much reading of the tabloids and watching Coronation Street is considered enough education for the "Great Unwashed". We have had troops in our streets twice in my lifetime, there is a good chance it will happen in Scotland if the Soccer Hooligans have any say in the matter, having visited Croydon after your last little fracus it seems more than possible such stupidity as we have seen in Canada, may indeed take place in your back yard, lets hope not.

[Lima Juliet]

In the event of a no vote I can see some quite nasty civil unrest.

I think it will either way. My relatives live in Glasgow and the 'yes' voters are predominantly Catholic and the 'no' voters are Protestant. These lot need very little excuse to 'kick off' - be it a 'yes' or a 'no'. Stand by for some MACA/MACP tasking on or after the 18th when the boys and girls in blue with flat feet can't cope. I would say this thing has the potential to spark off others itching for a fight and unrest around the rest of the Kingdom as well. My relatives have cast their postal vote and go on holiday for 2 weeks next week to hopefully sweep up the pieces on their return.

Around Glasgow you will find few 'no' posters in windows as they tend to attract boots, dog crap or bricks. It's not that there are more 'yes' voters, it's just the upbringing of those who are voting 'yes' is not great.

LJ

[melmothtw]

Fascinating as your stories are Clunk, I was referring the Canadian cessation from Britain rather than the more recent moves by Quebec to separate from Canada.

Still, I think this thread drift has become too large even by PPRUNE standards, so promise to make no more analogies about Canada...or Quebec.

[longer ron]

Exactly Leon - the damage is already done - Scotland will never be the same again - and it is not just Glasgow that is suffering !

Newt - no didnt move back to scotland but did join up 5 years later :)

I am still called a porridge w*g occasionally but we do not get into fisticuffs LOL

[Cameronian]

I am, albeit vicariously, in a similar position to the one in which Courtney Mil finds himself. The memsahib worked for the NHS in Glasgow until the end of 1981 - in other words, before the formation of ScotGov. She now gets her pension paid from Scotland because the responsibility for the NHS in Scotland now lies in Edinburgh.

You can see that we now live in Spain and share Courtney Mil's potential predicament. I don't think that the separatists are going to win the referendum this time and I am supported in this belief by Ladbrokes et al., however I feel that if the unionists don't win by a substantial margin, say 25%, the issue will be revisited in short order. I think that margin will not be easily attainable so, sadly, I feel that Scotland is going to remain riven by this ugliness for some time to come. All of this rancour is destroying the enviable image that Scotland has held in the minds of many around the world for many, many years - which makes me even sadder.

Is there a realistic path for my wife to follow to move her NHS pension so that it remains securely in the Sterling zone, appropriately backed by a lender of last resort?

[Cameronian]

Oh dear, mea culpa, I had been reading the thread for so long I had lost track of the fact that it is a Military one and I'm not. Please accept my apologies. I'd still be glad to receive any appropriate advice by PM, if that would be more appropriate and acceptable.

[clunckdriver]

Melmothw, you still dont get it, we are still a constutional monachy, we have a Govenor Generall WHO IS OUR HEAD OF STATE, {NOT the PM}, Meech Lake didnt work, Quebec didnt sign, we still swear alligence to the Queen, what you must understand is Canada has not been able to sever its conection with Westminster, thus not not truly an independent nation, the only hope I see for fixing this is if "Big Ears" takes over the throne, he is so disliked over here that this might unite us enough to fix the problem. So to sum up, there have been no "seperation riots " in Canada, simply because we have not fully seperated from the UK, in spite of what you may think.

[melmothtw]

One.last.time.Clunk

It is not that I 'don't get it', it's that, for the purposes of this thread, I do not care about Canada or Canadian history. I only used Canada as an example of a country that did not suffer civil wars and genocide following independence.

Now, before you start ranting to me again about the semantics of whether Canada actually is independent or not (as you seem to suggest) remember, I.do.not.care.

[Herod]

Clunk. I'm ready to be corrected, but when Canada ceased to be a Dominion and became an independent country didn't you set up your own government, currency, central bank, armed forces etc, and are you not an individual member of the UN and NATO? As far as I'm aware you have no connection to Westminster, any more than Australia and New Zealand do. Yes, you do still have the Queen as Head of State and, as such, have a Governor General, but that's as far as British involvement goes. Oh, and I assume by "Big Ears" you are referring to the person who is properly known as HRH the Prince of Wales.

[NutLoose]

I for one also dread the day "Big Ears" finally gets to Rule, one hopes that is not for a very long time.

I have to admit as to not being his greatest fan, nor his sidekick, but I feel it will not do the Monarchy of this Country any favours.... Right that's me orf to the Tower.

[airpolice]

Aware as I am that there is a danger of getting back on track........ The potential for Leeming to become the Northern Frontier is the same as the potential for the VietJock Air Force to get Leuchars back to an operational state to support our small Air Force, and defence jobs.


So, Veterans may want to see what happens before deciding to move.

All the talk of Scotland facing bankruptcy is based on us not having enough money to keep doing what we do. That's probably true, but the plans (such as they are) involve not doing a lot of it. Not just Nuclear (armed) subs but Carriers and £65 Million aircraft that do what exactly? We don't need to invade Syria, we need to protect the Oil rigs and Fishing grounds.


However, I do predict job losses in the event of a Yes vote. I'm a Yes voter.

The first round of losses that will be come obvious are at Glasgow, Edinburgh & Aberdeen Airports. There is a large amount of HMG & Civil Service traffic up and down to London town and that can all stop. I think lots of the Euro traffic will also fade away. How the airports will manage on just the people paying their own way for flying is hard to see.

I read a few pages ago that there is a concern re Pensions being kept at the same level if you elect to keep taking them whilst living up here. If our cost of living should go down (as a result of lower taxation supported by lower defence spending) would you want your pension lowered by Westminster?

Spot the connections between Finland, Sweden and Ireland.

Not in NATO.

Not going in for Expeditionary Warfare.

Not getting invaded.

In the event of a yes vote, the smart move for Service Pensioners may be to move up here, buy a nice house, cheap, from a deserter running south with his money, and live in a society not burdened by the cost of supporting pretensions of being a world power.

The Irish don't need Typhoons for QRA. Neither do we.

The Isle of Man don't need their own Navy, despite being an island, and Ireland have an Air Force with fewer than 30 aircraft.

If NATO are so concerned about the top right corner of the UKADGE they might want to rent Lossie from Scotland.

That's just on the military front, imagine all the other money we can save by not doing lots of other stuff that has been festering in Westminster for years. Don't get me started on Brussels.

A few months ago David Cameron was suggesting that Pestilence and a Plague of Frogs would devour Scotland if we split. This was because the Spaniards can't afford to set a precedent by allowing and independent breakaway to join the EU, and being excluded means the sky will fall in. Then just weeks later Dave is suggesting a Referendum on the UK Leaving the EU to improve things.


The case for Independent Scotland going bust is far from clear cut.

P.S. the next time you are going through the security panto at Heathrow, just remember this; the last terrorist who tried to attack a Scottish Airport, got a kicking (whilst on fire) from a baggage handler.

[TomJoad]

Our service to the crown also included Scotland, so debts, assets and liabilities will have to be negotiated and our pensions are a future liability paid for against the defence budget which I am sure the SNP have factored into their White Paper.

Correct engineer(retard) that's certainly my understanding. I have no reason to suspect why the UK gov would not honour that obligation - either by transfer of funds to Scottish government or payment in a similar way as to what happens now where vets are already domiciled outside of the UK.

Tom

[Biggus]

airpolice,


Yes, Ireland not spending all that money on defence certainly helped their economy, didn't it?

Ireland Moves to Repay IMF Bailout Loans Early - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/articles/ireland-moves-to-repay-imf-bailout-loans-early-1410196613)


The population of the Scotland is about 5.3M, of the whole UK approx. 64M, so Scotland represents about 8%. The UK defence budget is estimated to be around £33Bn for 2015. Page 604 of the SNP document projects an independent Scotland to spend £3Bn on defence in 2016. £3Bn represents about 9% of £33Bn. So in terms of expenditure per head of population, an independent Scotland is not planned to actually make any significant savings in defence, indeed it might spend slightly more.

Besides which, any predictions about a future Scotlands economy running into difficulty, whether you agree with them or not, aren't based on defence spending.



As for not "doing" £65M aircraft, page 240 of the SNP document states that they want a minimum of 12 Typhoons!

[ValMORNA]

However, Tom, many pensioners domiciled outside the UK have their pensions frozen at the same level as when they leave the UK, do they not?

[TomJoad]

However, Tom, many pensioners domiciled outside the UK have their pensions frozen at the same level as when they leave the UK, do they not?

Surely the service pension is frozen even if you reside in the UK, the only increment being annual CPI or when your commutation period is spent. Or are we talking about something else?

Tom

[Herod]

Tom, the frozen refers to the State Pension. Depending on where you live, and the arrangements in force, that is frozen at the figure it was when you left UK. There is no CPI rise; it just stays at the same figure.

[Burritto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer(retard) View Post
Our service to the crown also included Scotland, so debts, assets and liabilities will have to be negotiated and our pensions are a future liability paid for against the defence budget which I am sure the SNP have factored into their White Paper.
Correct engineer(retard) that's certainly my understanding. I have no reason to suspect why the UK gov would not honour that obligation - either by transfer of funds to Scottish government or payment in a similar way as to what happens now where vets are already domiciled outside of the UK.

Tom
Tom, please excuse me but are you saying that the rUK should pay all of your military pension should Scotland gain independence, and that iScot taxpayers shouldn't? I suppose rUK could pay 92% share of all those in iScot, and the scottish government the other 8% (based on population). As long as the iScot tax payer contributes 8% for ALL the veterans residing in rUK of course. I suppose if negotiations become strained I could take a 8% cut, could you take a 92% cut?

[TomJoad]

Tom, the frozen refers to the State Pension. Depending on where you live, and the arrangements in force, that is frozen at the figure it was when you left UK. There is no CPI rise; it just stays at the same figure.

Sorry Herod I was talking about the mil pension, I can see what you mean.


Originally posted by Burritto:
Tom, please excuse me but are you saying that the rUK should pay all of your military pension should Scotland gain independence, and that iScot taxpayers shouldn't? I suppose rUK could pay 92% share of all those in iScot, and the scottish government the other 8% (based on population). As long as the iScot tax payer contributes 8% for ALL the veterans residing in rUK of course. I suppose if negotiations become strained I could take a 8% cut, could you take a 92% cut?

No I'm not. I'm saying that the pension which was accrued under contract should continue to be honoured. Clearly an iScotland would have a responsibility to honour her element of that as would rUK - rUK would have the greater percentage to fund. So in effect as you have described less of course the churlish rider at the end. When it comes to these things, despite what we may think, our governments are actually sensible in their solutions.

Tom

[airpolice]

Biggus, like so many other people, you seem to be confusing an Independent Scotland and a Independent Scotland run by the SNP.

Once we break free from the shackles of Westminster, we may treat Wee Eck to a Churchillian send off.

This election is not about the SNP, it's about Scotland.

[Lima Juliet]

Spot the connections between Finland, Sweden and Ireland.

Not in NATO.

Not going in for Expeditionary Warfare.

Not getting invaded.

In the event of a yes vote, the smart move for Service Pensioners may be to move up here, buy a nice house, cheap, from a deserter running south with his money, and live in a society not burdened by the cost of supporting pretensions of being a world power.

The Irish don't need Typhoons for QRA. Neither do we.

The Isle of Man don't need their own Navy, despite being an island, and Ireland have an Air Force with fewer than 30 aircraft.

If NATO are so concerned about the top right corner of the UKADGE they might want to rent Lossie from Scotland.

Naivity?

So that would be the Ireland that needed bailing out for setting up an economy on tourism, booze and local produce? (Sound familiar?)

So that would be the Finland that is starting to get worried over recent Russian border movements?

So that would be the Ireland, Sweden and Finland that are discussing joining NATO in light of what has happened to Ukraine? (Try doing a Google search on the subject!)

So that would be the NATO that has a treaty article that protects us all from what just happened in the Crimea?

So that would be the Typhoons that will escort the Russian aircraft without the correct transponders to show up on Scottish Civil Air Traffic Control Radars that will fly in Scottish airspace without regard to the commercial airliners under its control? And they will be the Russian aircraft that are visiting Cuba and its surface/sub-surface fleet more regularly?

So an armed force is not required by Scotland to protect the oil that 'Salmon D' is so convinced will be all his and will fund his welfare state? That will be the oil and gas that no one else will want then? That will be the myriad of islands with oil and strategic importance that someone like Putin will just take if not given any resistance (like he did in Crimea and is doing now in Ukraine)?

Yup, plain naivity and ignorance will see you through...:ugh:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Oh, and as for your baggage handler, maybe the QGM was a bit hasty:

Glasgow terror hero is 'a fake who failed to land a blow on burning man' during airport attack, say bitter colleagues

Alex McIlveen, who tore a tendon in his foot while tackling burning Kafeel Ahmed, told reporters: "John Smeaton is not telling the whole truth. When it came to tackling the bombers, he didn't land a blow."

Mr McIlveen claimed it was he and two other men, Michael Kerr and Stephen Clarkson, who were mainly responsible for defeating the terrorists that day and all Mr Smeaton contributed were fine words.

"It was the policeman, Michael Kerr and myself who tackled the first bomber after he got out the passenger side of the jeep. Then it was Stephen Clarkson, myself and three other policemen who tried to stop the second one who was on fire.

"As far as I am concerned, at no point did John Smeaton attempt to tackle the bombers.

Source: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/glasgow-terror-hero-is-a-fake-who-failed-to-land-a-blow-on-burning-man-during-airport-attack-say-bitter-colleagues-6689067.html

[The Helpful Stacker]

Airpolice - With so many tasty morsels to pick from I was spolit for choice, so I'll just stick with a little bit for now and allow others a turn at the buffet.

If our cost of living should go down (as a result of lower taxation supported by lower defence spending) would you want your pension lowered by Westminster?

Spot the connections between Finland, Sweden and Ireland.

Not in NATO.


Lets start at the end and work backwards. The SNP/Yes to Independence campaign have stated (http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/what-about-nato) they wish to remain in/join NATO.

So working further back, neither Finland, Sweden nor Ireland are NATO members so can choose their own levels of defence spending.

Going back to the start, if is a very big word. How will iScotland be able to afford lower taxation when (if), according to Salmonds plans, they become a member of NATO and are required to maintain defence spending levels of, I believe, 2% of GDP?

I'm all for Scotland having an independence referendum and, if it leads to it, going their own way, but please don't pretend a post-independence Scotland is going to be a land of milk and honey (and low taxes), especially not if the promises being made by the Yes campaign are stuck to. If the Yes campaign stick to their promises (especially regarding health and social care provision) then someone is going to end up paying a significant amount of tax.

[Biggus]

airpolice,

If the vote is a yes, who is going to do all the negotiations with Westminster prior to independence in 2016. Who is going to lay down all the foundations, institutions, rules and regulations, choose the currency, etc, for an independent Scotland before you have the chance to throw them out in the 2016 elections?

That wouldn't be the SNP by any chance would it?

Maybe there'll be some advisory groups of Subject Matter Experts, selected, and paid, by the current Scottish Government, which is..... ah, SNP.

[TomJoad]

Who is going to lay down all the foundations, institutions, rules and regulations, choose the currency, etc, for an independent Scotland before you have the chance to throw them out in the 2016 elections?

That wouldn't be the SNP by any chance would it?

No it won't be the SNP it will be a cross party team including non political representatives from civic, law,business, charitable,faith organisations. There is also to be a representative component from the ordinary public. Quite an exciting prospect actually - I mean can you imagine having the opportunity to define what your country's constitution and her institutions will look like. No more carping about a corrupt honours system, no more house of Lords.....

Tom

[Lima Juliet]

Quite an exciting prospect actually...

Are you on the 'happy pills' again, Tom? :ok:

[Biggus]

TJ,

If you are correct, which I'm not disputing, then surely the 600 odd page document is nothing more than a waste of paper (which cost over £1M of taxpayers money) as nothing in it may come to pass? Indeed, all specific details being pushed by the "yes" campaign are inevitability nothing more than mere speculation. It's basically a case of vote for independence and then we'll work out what sort of country you get afterwards. To take a slightly fanciful example, all this massive amount of talk of keeping the pound on the basis "it's our pound" could be pointless if your cross party team decides to use the US$ on the basis it is a stable global currency and will attract more US tourists!

Presumably this cross party team will have to conclude its deliberations before any discussions with Westminster begin, as until they do the Scottish side won't know what its bargaining position is.

[Al R]

You get the impression that the "yes" vote was allowed its day in the sun in the interests of balance by an opinion obsessed media over the weekend. But the inexorable critical mass and gearing of the "no" vote is now going to quietly start gaining traction again. Standard Life puts the velvet boot in (again) this morning. You can guess which way those employees will be voting.

Scottish Independence: Standard Life Calms Customer Fears With Precautionary Measures (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-standard-life-calms-customer-fears-precautionary-measures-1464861)

[melmothtw]

Don't forget, that the 'Yes' majority reported over the weekend covers only those who say they have firmly made up their minds one way of the other. I'd be surprised if most of those showing up to vote on the day who are currently still undecided opt to vote Yes, as I'd imagine they'd opt for the status quo (especially given the recent offers of extended powers).

Just my opinion, of course.

[Willard Whyte]

In the event of a yes vote, at what point will Salmond vacate his palace and hand it over to Sean Connery (PBUH)?

[NutLoose]

Well with the Pound dropping, companies and people trying to shift equity out of Scotland, companies such as B&Q warning that prices will rise in Scotland if it becomes an independent state, and the stock markets jittery over the whole thing, it makes you wonder when the rest of the world is concerned over the split Salmond can still make a viable case that the populace appear to be buying into. One thing is for certain, as things stan at the moment we know exactly what is what, if that changes the future is a mixture of conjecture and Salmond fairy dust.

There are a lot of things that would need to be sorted, an example is the BBC, as an independant Country will they simply set up their own service and the BBC stop collecting Licence fees in Scotland and turn off the transmitters?

[BEagle]

NutLoose wrote: There are a lot of things that would need to be sorted, an example is the BBC, as an independent country will they simply set up their own service and the BBC stop collecting Licence fees in Scotland and turn off the transmitters?

Hmmm.....

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/OHBC_zps3c55d2d4.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/OHBC_zps3c55d2d4.jpg.html)

:rolleyes:

[melmothtw]

A thought on the future of the BBC in an independent Scotland

If Scotland votes for independence: the key questions answered | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/09/-sp-if-scotland-votes-for-independence-key-questions)

[Al R]

Whatever the rights and wrongs, Salmond is so obsessed, so focused on this one single issue, he'd probably fly his country into a mountain and still be denying the reality with his final breath. His case isn't cogent, the fact that it's built on best case possibilities, uncertainty, speculation and ideal scenarios is one thing, the fact that he's using that modeling to apply to the future wealth of a country is nothing short of baffling. He has become like a used car salesman, like a student being quizzed by DS after a presentation.. batting away objection after objection with a mix of confidence and increasing self denial.

I like the idea of Scotland being 'free', I really do. I don't think that a 300 year old political union is the basis for keeping it if tradition is all we can point to. Scotland needs help in away that shouldn't be delivered from England; it's not fair on England and it isn't in Scottish long term good; basically, we continue to slap paint over cracks. But the Plan B still has to be better than Plan A, otherwise why do it? It has to offer security, certainty and at least a route map for improvement.. I think we really could be better as the equivalent of our parts rather than the total sum of our parts.

But on the strength of the data, the forecasts and the still unanswered questions, you'd have to be absolutely stark raving mad to gamble the entire well being of a country and its people on the basis of what that lunatic is saying. Who in their right mind would subordinate certainty to economic uncertainty, hard nosed financial reality and the well being of your people to single issue fanaticism, political ideology and prescriptive dogma? Whether or not your heart says 'yes', what does your 'head' tell you? If you had £50,000 in savings, would you gamble it in such a foolhardy and uncertain way as many people seem willing to do next week, simply because the proposition is evocatively wrapped up in the Saltire?

Our leaders should have presented a fused and cogent action plan that the people could have voted on in informed certainty. Instead of deciding on the viability of a pre determined and rational road map, the electorate is being asked to vote on nothing more than a gut instinct, forged years before at home, at Uni and in formative years. Now, community has turned against community, debates are reduced to shouting and our legislators have shown themselves up to be what they are, amateurish and incompetent chancers. Me, I'm away for a couple of weeks - anything to get away from the Scottish Neverendum.

[The Old Fat One]

Reading your posts I am yet again struck by how out of touch so many of you are with what exactly is going on up here.

I live in Scotland, I work in Scotland and I climb mountains in Scotland...I meet many, many Scots from all walks of life and most/many of them are voting yes, despite the fact they dislike Salmond as much as we (the English do). It is not about Salmond and the SNP FFS!

It is about democracy. Thatcher taught Scotland to loathe the Conservative Party. They (the jocks) want to be governed by people they elect...not by people somebody else elects. Most of them are well aware there are huge risks...but they are risks they are willing to take to take democracy forward. For anybody who has fought for freedom and democracy, that is tough argument to counter with any degree of integrity.

If it was not for the older generation of no voting Scots, this referendum would be a forgone conclusion.

PS

I think they are wrong...but purely because I am not, and never have been, and idealist and a lot of this chimes too much with idealism in my book. But that does not mean I don't respect their point of view.

[barnstormer1968]

TOFO

You make a lot of sense there, and many people seem to think that everything will change if they have their own parliament. As you say, many people want rules and life governed by locally elected politicians, and I think they genuinely believe they will get it. They are of course encouraged to believe this by 'yes' supporters or politicians.

If Scotland breaks away I wonder how much of a shock the reality will be.
Will employment law change much.............probably not as it's EU governed and Salmond wants in to that gravy train

The same applies to all kinds of stuff from the shape of bananas to the design of cars sold in Scotland.

Last night I was listening to radio 5 and heard two comments from Scots that made me laugh out loud.
The interviewer was asking random people there views on a future Scotland
Person A said she wanted the NHS in Scotland to be controlled from Scotland as it would be better than it is now and have more money than it does controlled from London.
Person B followed immediately on and said he didn't think it would be any different as NHS SCOTLAND is already locally controlled in Scotland by scots so nothing would change :)

As for Scottish defence, I'm already at a figure three times higher than Salmond has said the budget will be, and I've only accounted for two aircraft types and a few other bits of kit (unless Salmond can run 36 typhoons and a new buy of MPA aircraft plus training and support for magic beans) :)

As a question, where will future Scottish typhoon pilots train, and will it be in an English speaking country? The 'yessers' say an independent Scottish airforce say they need 36 typhoons (so need to buy 12 new after being gifted 24)..................are there 36 Scottish pilots trained and combat ready on typhoon now?

[TomJoad]

TJ,

If you are correct, which I'm not disputing, then surely the 600 odd page document is nothing more than a waste of paper (which cost over £1M of taxpayers money) as nothing in it may come to pass? Indeed, all specific details being pushed by the "yes" campaign are inevitability nothing more than mere speculation. It's basically a case of vote for independence and then we'll work out what sort of country you get afterwards. To take a slightly fanciful example, all this massive amount of talk of keeping the pound on the basis "it's our pound" could be pointless if your cross party team decides to use the US$ on the basis it is a stable global currency and will attract more US tourists!

Presumably this cross party team will have to conclude its deliberations before any discussions with Westminster begin, as until they do the Scottish side won't know what its bargaining position is.

Biggus in a sense it may well be. The vote on 18 Sep is not a vote on the contents of the White Paper, which the SNP have no authority to deliver on their own. Rather it is a vote to give the Scottish government a mandate to negotiate the terms of independence in a process called the settlement. The Scottish government have already committed to the form of the negotiation team as I outlined. Indeed, Salmond has already invited the likes of Alistair Darling to be a member of the negotiating team - whether he accepts (I think he would) remains to be seen. I'm certainly not voting on the content of the white paper. I mean, there are considerable disconnects, and things that are wholly dependent upon the outcome of the negotiations. Other areas, like defence, are also wide of the mark. The white paper was I guess an attempt to provide some broad strokes around which to talk. Or if you want, a stunt, but certainly not the proposal on which I am voting.


Tom

[Lima Juliet]

As Lloyds Banking Group own the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and the UK Govt have a sizeable stake, I don't see it staying in Scottish for very long if the Scots make the biggest tactical blunder since Goering switched from the airfields to London in the Battle of Britain - by voting 'yes'.

Get set for more anouncements like this...business is business, as they say, and there is no room for dewy eyed views of the mother country!

LJ

[TomJoad]

In truth an Independent Scotland cannot bear the risk presented by the larger banks, particularly the "casino" investment arms. Rules concerning HQ location and core customer base may also precipitate a move. What this does mean is that Scotland would no longer be exposed to the level of risk that we saw in the banking crash, a level it would not be able to defend against. Of course I never understood why the state would allow itself to be exposed to such a risk - the banks should have been regulated effectively to prevent the situation where they are in a position to cause the state to fail.

Tom

[sitigeltfel]

If it was not for the older generation of no voting Scots, this referendum would be a forgone conclusion.

Perish the thought that those who have paid for it all, and gained a lifetime of experience, should have a say!

[Lima Juliet]

Tom

What it would mean is that you have naff-all investment in a broken country! You can't just cut each other's hair, sell oat cakes and whisky. The big corporates ain't stupid and have already started pulling the plug - ignore at your peril!

Also, if the 50%+ tax rate that Salmon D is promising comes in then all of your high powered help in and around Aberdeen is going to leg it faster than a rat on a sinking ship.

LJ

[sandozer]

Quote from The Week,
"First news of the YouGov poll came from Rupert Murdoch, owner of the Sunday Times, who COMMISIONED it. He tweeted that the result was "a huge black eye for [the] political establishment, especially Cameron and Miliband".

Rupert Murdoch has an axe to grind. after the phone tapping debacle News Corporation and his empire require the correct result, which according to Ladbrokes, follow the money, is not going to happen. (NO result has widened to 1 to 3 in last 24 hours)
Don`t panic chaps, we will be fine. :D

Will be over the pond when result comes in, but assured are colonial friends will give me news and reason to celebrate with a good malt.

[ShyTorque]

Hmm, Alex Salmond and his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon. They seem so familiar..

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/shytorque/Shrek_zps24cc69b5.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/shytorque/media/Shrek_zps24cc69b5.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/shytorque/FionaShrekkilt_zps25026e99.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/shytorque/media/FionaShrekkilt_zps25026e99.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/shytorque/Shrek3_zpse4b9e937.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/shytorque/media/Shrek3_zpse4b9e937.jpg.html)

You never see them in the same room, as these two heroes, do you?

[TomJoad]

Tom

What it would mean is that you have naff-all investment in a broken country! You can't just cut each other's hair, sell oat cakes and whisky. The big corporates ain't stupid and have already started pulling the plug - ignore at your peril!

Also, if the 50%+ tax rate that Salmon D is promising comes in then all of your high powered help in and around Aberdeen is going to leg it faster than a rat on a sinking ship.

LJ

Leon we were able to function quite easily in the days before RBS was allowed to to grow to 12 x the Scottish GDP. If our banking sector moves away from the casino banking so beloved of the city then so be it, I won't shed a tear - their previous model brought this country to its knees. It will not happen overnight but Scotland will have the opportunity to grow other sectors, yes it will be in competition with everywhere else, but why should it not enjoy that right. It is somewhat strange indeed that Scotland, amongst small countries, would be uniquely singled out to fall to the circumstances you suggest. As for high powered help legging it, that tends to be the cry of the high powered help themselves, just like the bankers and their bonuses. I've always believed in the "hand in the bucket of water" analogy - we have plenty of young talent here waiting for their opportunity. Leon, I don't think milk and honey will flow overnight just because we are independent, I do believe taxes will rise but it will be our choice to fund what we want. I simply do not share your pessimism. Anyway this is off topic and we are in danger of turning this into Jet Blast territory. Perhaps we are best sticking to the OP topic, we may start annoying folk.

Tom

[1.3VStall]

TJ,

Good post, I've been wondering what the **** this drivelling thread has to do with military aviation!

[airpolice]

So, coming back (near) to the original heading......


Where would they go?

If the vote is Yes, and we get the plague of Frogs, despite having the Oil & Whisky revenue... and Wee Eck gets us into bother.....


The worlds markets are already giving the pound a hard time. Stability will be hard to get anyway, but really hard in the event of a Yes vote.

So, not only is there no pot of gold at our end of the rainbow, it's looking ****e at the English side as well.

So, back to the OP, if it seems that you need to move out of Scotland, where is it that you are going, in order to be better off?

[The Old Fat One]

So, back to the OP, if it seems that you need to move out of Scotland, where is it that you are going, in order to be better off

that's the point...nobody needs to move anywhere.

what matters is

where you pay tax (tax domicle)
what is says on your passport (nationality)
where you keep your wealth (security)

If it were yes and the reciprocal tax arrangements are "normal" (which they will be)...I can pay tax in the rUK, keep my money in rUK, have my pension paid by rUK and have rUK in my passport. I will be an ex-pat just like many of you living in France. That much is obvious...what should be equally obvious (but seems not to be) is that lord and lady machaggis living in the castle up the road, will have exactly the same options as me.

Right, I'm not posting that again.

But I will say this...a no vote is going cause a sh1tload of grief, so I believe this genie, and the goat it comes with, is out of the bottle and is never going back.

On that basis alone, bonnie Scotland, may not be so bonnie for a geezer with my accent whatever happens.

[newt]

Good! The Scots have been nothing but trouble for centuries! They have swopped sides whenever it suits! This time they should be given their freedom with the proviso that they are NEVER allowed back into the union!

Let them find out what it's like to be a very very small fish in a much bigger pond! Just look at the huge companies that are already set to move out of Scotland! That's a huge clue as to where Scotland is headed! Deep depression and no investment for at least the next fifty years!

Just hope I can sell up and get out before they hit rock bottom! The rest is :mad:

[airpolice]

Newt, get off the fence and say what you mean!

[Biggus]

airpolice,

You asked of the OP, "where is it that you are going, in order to be better off?"

It's the wrong question. The question you should ask is where are you going to avoid becoming worse off, to avoid a drop in the current standard of living of you and your family?

Where are you going to avoid paying more in taxes than you currently do, paying more for your mortgage, paying more for goods and services (ask B&Q, ASDA, John Lewis), paying more for your energy (green subsidies)? Where are you going for greater financial security?

Lastly, as TOFO has already said, where are you going so that your accent, and perhaps more importantly that of your children, doesn't become at the very least a social disadvantage, and potentially worse?

[BEagle]

Now we hear that RBS intends to move to London, in the unlikely event of Scotland becoming independent....

Others to follow, no doubt.

[airpolice]

Biggus, I thought that my question covered all of it.

However, your wide ranging list of the perils to be faced by the English abroad seems quite comprehensive.

I suspect that even going a few hundred miles south might only result in not being quite so much worse off than if you stay in Scotland, rather than being able to move to the Lakes and avoid all of the pain.

I don't see anything positive for Englandshire in any of this. We might do better, or worse but it only seems to get worse for England (rUK) or whatever you want to call it.

[Biggus]

The Old Fat One

Please check your PMs

[newt]

Just seen some Scottish athlete claiming that the National Lottery already pays for training facilities for Scottish athletes in Scotland! I assume that will end too as it is the UK National Lottery and they will no longer be in the UK?

If I said any more airpolice, I would be banned for life!:E

[draken55]

"Thatcher taught Scotland to loathe the Conservative Party"

Strange however, that so many of our folk including my mother and sister took advantage of the right to buy that she introduced. Perhaps we are all just hypocrites.

As for the Governance issue, the UK bar Scotland didn't vote for Labour in 1964 or 1974 but got it. The shambles of the 1974 to 1979 Labour Government was a prime reason why the Mrs T came to power. Thats the trouble with Democracy, you don't always get the result you hope for.

[melmothtw]

the UK bar Scotland didn't vote for Labour in 1964 or 1974 but got it.

The 'UK bar Scotland' or England Draken? I'm pretty sure Labour won a sizable majority in Wales.

[Party Animal]

Had to laugh at the BBC news editing this morning. Starting with news that B&Q, RBS etc, etc, all had plans to move headquarters and jobs south of the border in the event of a yes vote. Then followed by a cut to Alex Salmond for his comment - 'This is good news for Scotland and shows that in the event of a yes vote, Scotland will be significantly better off financially..blah' :ugh:


I live in Scotland, I work in Scotland and I climb mountains in Scotland...I meet many, many Scots from all walks of life and most/many of them are voting yes,


TOFO,

Perhaps you live in a sh1t part of Scotland? I also live in Scotland, in an affluent part alongside many professional, intelligent, capable and dare I say it - capitalist neighbours. All of them will be voting 'NO' on the basis that economic wealth and a known level of standard of living outweighs the benefits of 'freedom' and the huge uncertainties that come with it. Thankfully, these same neighbours do not take issue with my English accent or show even the slightest tendency towards rascism.

Now back to the original post. For me - as someone who wishes to retire and live in Scotland for the rest of my days, I would never put my military pension in the hands of an independant Scotland. Yes, they could make guarantees on day one to honour the pension payment but what if, it all goes wrong for the country and cuts have to be made to avoid bankruptcy? I'm not prepared to take the risk that my pension could be affected.

So rUK payment please, to an rUK bank and taxed at an rUK rate. I will then have to live with the exchange rate issue and draw my own conclusions if remaining in Scotland is still viable.

In a similar vein, chopping from the RAF to the SRAF has a certain attraction. But the guarantee of providing the same wage structure and pension system as I currently have is worthless. I can honestly say that I haven't met a single Scottish member of the RAF and RN who will be voting 'yes' or would elect to transfer to the fledgling SDF. It comes down to the same view as above. Whether the current UK is good or bad, at least the 'knowns' that currently exist can be expected to remain in place. At least for a certain age group that haven't been shafted by new T&C's and the new military pension about to come into effect!

[draken55]

Melmothw, you are of course quite correct as was the case with large parts of England. However, it was a nationwide election and that Nation was not Scotland.

[melmothtw]

No problem Draken, just don't forget Wales ;-)

[draken55]

I will not. I actually quizzed a Yes campaigner on why Wales is not hard on the heels of Scotland in pushing to leave the Union. Her response, Wales was conquered by the English we were not! Technically a valid point but as she had never heard of Flodden or Cromwell's forays North, I think we had that Braveheart film to blame again.

[melmothtw]

Well, I'd say your friend's explanation as to why Wales isn't pressing for independence would actually be an argument for Wales to be pushing harder than Scotland, given that Wales had no choice in joining the Union.

I'd suggest that the reason Wales isn't pushing for independence in the same way as Scotland has more to do with economic and social realities than with historical conquests carried out hundreds of years ago.

That, and Wales' nationalism has always been more culturally focused than politically focused.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I must live closer to Party Animal than I thought!

Duncs:ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Perhaps you live in a sh1t part of Scotland? I also live in Scotland, in an affluent part alongside many professional, intelligent, capable and dare I say it - capitalist neighbours.

Actually my old China, I live in a small part of Scotland that was once amongst the richest in Europe, if the not the planet. I also partake my morning Sauna with a number of JR Ewing types, that carry their wages round in Bentley's and Maseratis...and yes, they are all voting no as you point out. But I also work with a lot of young professionals, all of whom are voting yes...so the idea that the votes swings around a person's net worth is poppycock. Age is a massive factor in this referendum (the deciding factor in fact) which is why, if not this time, then next time.

I can honestly say that I haven't met a single Scottish member of the RAF and RN who will be voting 'yes'

I guess you don't have the same ex wet MAEOp on FB as me then...not only is he voting yes, he is trumpeting the propaganda with a passion wee eck himself would be proud of! He has few serving members amongst his acolytes as well.

PS

So rUK payment please, to an rUK bank and taxed at an rUK rate. I will then have to live with the exchange rate issue and draw my own conclusions if remaining in Scotland is still viable.

That's a neat summary of my position...so it's not like we disagree on the important stuff

[clunckdriver]

Well, over here in Canada it seems that our Parti Qubecois are starting to stir again, fed by the nonsense going on in Scotland, thanks guys, that all we needed to really foul things up again, mind you with the exception of goverment dependent companies like Bombardier, all the big players left during the previous bout of stupidity. But the US troops just South of us at Fort Drum will be re -activating their POPO unit again Im sure. {thats preservation of public order by the way, which in turn is code for "lets secure our energy suplies and navigation freedom life lines"} It should take them about twelve hours to acomplish this. eleven laughing, and one doing it!

[Nigd3]

Clunkdriver

I don't see or hear much from the PQ these days, I think they are still licking their wounds after the election night humping they got earlier this year. That and deciding who is going to lead them to their next embarassment.

I have seen the odd story here and there with parallels being drawn, especially by immigrant Scots who are resident in Quebec voicing an opinion.

I will keep a better eye out from now on.

[4321NMC]

37 years in the RAF (most fun I ever had with my trousers on!), 18 years in Scotland (for trousers read kilt). Just started the process of moving south. Regrets but can't stay in the car crash the new Scotland will become.
'The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity' (W B Yeats).

[newt]

Me too! Just got the problem of selling the house!

Guess what?

The Scots can't afford it and the English no longer want to live in Scotland!

Even the fishing is crap this year!:}

[Lima Juliet]

I predicted this a few posts back (#211)...

As Lloyds Banking Group own the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and the UK Govt have a sizeable stake, I don't see it staying Scottish for very long if the Scots make the biggest tactical blunder since Goering switched from the airfields to London in the Battle of Britain - by voting 'yes'.

...on Wednesday at 1900hrs. By Thursday morning it was in the news! I wonder if I am Salmon D's "Treasury Mole"!!! :p

Is it me, or is he getting a bit paranoid? Also, I predict that if RBS move it will be a bit more than a 'brass plaque' move that he would have us believe. I reckon a couple of thousand jobs will go with it down to where the streets are paved with gold - Landaan taaan!

Anyway, at least Courtney can re-invest his mil pension if this happens!

LJ :ok:

PS. I knew I should have bought a lottery ticket on Wednesday!

[Boudreaux Bob]

Newt....send photos of the house and directions to the fishing!

[The Oberon]

Will there be duty free facilities at Gretna Green ?

[ShyTorque]

Leon,

It appears that Salmond doesn't like the thought of the truth coming out. Personal agenda, smoke and mirrors, etc....

[Lima Juliet]

I also warned (post #176) that there is going to be trouble either way on this as it is also predominantly a Catholic/Protestant thing and that MACA/MACP might be required if we're not careful as the boys in blue might not have enough resources to cope. Then I read this...

Thousands of Orange Order supporters are gathering in Edinburgh for a rally on behalf of the United Kingdom.

Henry Dunbar, grand master of the Orange Order in Scotland, is expected to tell marchers: "The 'No' campaign has been criticised for not showing enough passion for the Union - well look out, here comes some passion.

"We are the Orangemen and women of Scotland and we are passionate about our Queen and country."

Well done Salmon D, you are ripping both the UK and Scotland apart for your own political goals and your own personal vanity. :mad:

LJ

[iRaven]

Wanting to make light of it...even the Kestrels are leaving the sinking ship!

The number of kestrels in Scotland has declined significantly in recent years, according to conservationists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29178662

[Wander00]

LJ - "We Heck's vanity" - you said it all


iR - kestrels sadly serious decline in England too. Covered in ISTR Springwatch on BBC2 earlier in the year

[Roland Pulfrew]

even the Kestrels are leaving

Of course it's not just the kestrels, Nessie has legged it already Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11090807/Scottish-independence-now-Nessie-defects.html), apparently!

[Biggus]

A friend of my wife has worked as a presiding officer at a local polling station for nearly 30 years. She reports that recently she has had many acquaintances asking her if it is possible for someone to determine how they voted? She has never been asked that before in all her years as a presiding officer.

So why is the question being asked? Quite simply these people are frightened of the consequences if the vote is "yes" and someone determines that they personally voted "no". Such fears might be totally groundless, that's easy to say, but is largely irrelevant. The point is that these fears exist and are very real to some people.

Whichever side of the argument you sit, I would ask, what have we become?

[Wrathmonk]

if it is possible for someone to determine how they voted

If the poll is conducted the same way as the recent elections in UK then the answer is, potentially, yes!

Have a look at page 12 (bullet 1, Stage 2) on this (Electoral Commission) link (http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/164255/EPE-Polling-station-handbook.pdf).

Write the elector number (including the polling district reference letter(s) if not pre-printed) on the corresponding number list next to the number of the ballot paper to be issued

Therefore, in theory (and with my tin foil hat on), if someone was to have access to the ballot papers (which are manually counted.....) and the polling station lists they could be cross referenced back to the individual elector number and therefore the individual elector.

I questioned at the last local election here why this was done (connect ballot number to elector number) but the polling officer was unable (or unwilling) to answer my question.