Crash incident at Northam YNTM

[Caedus]

Plane crashes into hangars in Northam - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-05/plane-crashes-into-hangars-in-northam/5722956)

Not much details avail yet

[Hasherucf]

| Perth Now (http://m.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/northam-airport-evacuated-after-light-plane-crashes-into-hangar/story-fnhocxo3-1227048971847)

pictures included in this article. Death to another Mooney :) Rodger and the boys at Northam Air services will be changing their daks today.

[kingRB]

Looks like that's hit one of NAS's hangars?

How the hell do you end up facing that direction perpendicular to the runway?

[solowflyer]

Has been a while but from memory the hangers are a fair distance away from the runway. At least it sounds like everyone is ok.

[Rotor Work]

Just a lady reverse parking,:ok:
Glad she is safe
R W

[SOPS]

I can't work out how it ended up where it did....but glad no one was hurt.

[Jabawocky]

Maybe after peeling one wing off it is easier to spin around?

Impressive effort indeed.

Expensive educational moment but luckily not injury or death.

Hope she gets back on the horse again soon and does not get hounded out of town.

[kingRB]

Looking at the pics more thats definitely NAS hangar next to Windward baloons. Lodged where their engine overhaul shop is if my memory is correct.

Very lucky no one injured or killed!

[Hasherucf]

Must be a Northam thing for students to run into things off the runway. Anyone remember the Cessna hitting the aerostar parked way off the runway.

http:// www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/312822-northam-collision.html

[cowl flaps]

Just a lady reverse parking,:ok:Love it! :D

[notjustanotherpilot]

I'll hazard a guess for the cause at the ol' P factor torque effect that the Mooney is allegedly famous for, especially on T & G ops. Probably using RWY 14 would be the best bet as to how it ended up there, and going by what was said by some of the people on site. Quite a few of them seem to have ended up off the side of strips on takeoff/go around.
I was told when I was converting on them that they bite if you don't keep up with them but I've never had any concerns or really noticed any great predilection for them to go off track on the power up or go around. Maybe because I use the pedals for the reason they are there. I've actually noted more of a want to go to the left in a GA8 turbo Airvan.

[gerry111]

Hasherucf,


I can't get your link to work.

[onetrack]

Here's the correct link to the Cessna/Aerostar prang ..

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/312822-northam-collision.html

[Ethel the Aardvark]

Slight off topic.
Been a bit quiet about an airvan hitting a Waco and a parked vehicle whilst landing at Pinjarra last week!

[gerry111]

Thanks, onetrack! :ok:

[Jenna Talia]

A mate of mine who was there saw the accident unfold said it was not a P factor incident, it was a stall spin, following a high nose attitude after a touch and go. The reason for the reverse park factor was the final aftermath of the left wing dropping.

The cabin was relatively intact and the pilot thankfully survived with a very minor injury and shock. A testament to the strength of the Mooney steel cage structure surrounding the cabin.

[notjustanotherpilot]

Ah, fair enough. Too much back stick & didn't fly the plane. Only being a fairly green aviator too, PPL held for 18 months or so as per the interview of Trevor Jones from the Royal Aero Club whose plane it is/was, would not have helped.

[gerry111]

notjustanotherpilot,


If only you had been sitting alongside her in the right hand seat, all would have been well? :ugh:


And your flying experience is?

[notjustanotherpilot]

Nah, thanks.
That can probably be said about most anyone on these fora and if indeed any of them were then they probably would have either said something or done something to help avert the crisis. And I'm not suggesting that I'm any better than any of you.
I'm commenting on exactly what I've seen and heard from the news footages, and my own limited experience in the Mooney.


And your flying experience is?
Hours wise, 2500+

[Squawk7700]

Does anyone know what that big white tank think is under the left wing, fuel, gas perhaps? (Refer to photos)

[gileraguy]

Gotta love the PPrune AIB in action!

Good thing she was in a Mooney!

[Chasco175]

The item under the left wing is an egg. It is a stage prop from the cirque de soleil show "OVO". I don't know how it came to be at Northam.

[bolthead]

After a touch and go, the Mooney usually has a fair bit of nose up trim. To maintain a sensible climb out speed requires a decent amount of forward pressure. If this is unexpected, there could be problems.

[Blueskymine]

Or you reset the trim prior to applying power like you are supposed to.

[MikeTangoEcho]

The white thing is the Cirque Du Soleil balloon that was part of the Ovo promotion of the last Cirque tour.. NFI as to why THAT is THERE, Windward link maybe?

[awqward]

The question is why do we do touch and goes? Only reason is to get a few more circuits in a given time period.. In real life flying you are either going to land or you are going around....even go-arounds in Mooney are a handful with strong pitch up... Combine the strong pitch up with a strong crosswind ( the norm in Northam) and possibly a bounced landing (very, very easy to do in a Mooney)... I rarely do them in mine ...better to practice go-arounds

For takeoff and landing practice takeoff, fly the circuit, land, taxi back and do it again...especially on a strong crosswind.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Jeez, so now it's too dangerous to do touch and go's:ugh:.
Gawd help me......

[Kharon]

Touch and go landings are hereby prohibited. Ah, but the taxi back can be very dangerous; we must have an accepted section in the SOP:-

(i) A spread sheet where wind speed, crosswind and safe taxi speed can determined, with a suitable factor for gusts and quartering.

(ii) A chart depicting speed modification for wet, damp and contaminated taxiway speed reduction.

(iii) A CARA 35 approved set of wingtip 'spring things' to ensure that the centre line of the taxiway is maintained; provided the nose wheel oleo pressure can be adjusted so that the hitting every bloody taxi way light does not cause damage; or cause us to wobble off the centreline.

(iv) A regular taxi check with an ATO who must fail you if one pufftoonth of wander or a one knot variation in ground speed is noted.

(v) Strict look out protocols must be fully documented and be the responsibility of the tower of unicom to police. Taxiing without ground guidance from voice over GPS ground alerts and approved chart data is strictly verbotten.

(vi) No aircraft shall proceed past the parking area limit line without at least two wing walkers and may only park (see definition) in srtict compliance with marshalling instructions from an approved ground marshal under CAO 20.3 including Appendix 1.

(vii) Operations in any other wind conditions with the exclusion of dead calm requires prior approval from the ATSB, CASA and the chook shed operator.

(viii) Tacho or VDO time spent taxiing will be charged at an additional rate due to the increased risk, higher insurance policy fees additional administrative cost, initial cost of installing the mandatory safety equipment and increased fees for taxiway maintenance.

All for sake of a touch of top rudder; welcome to safety – Australian style.

Top rudder son; top rudder....:ugh:

[27/09]

The question is why do we do touch and goes? Only reason is to get a few more circuits in a given time period.. In real life flying you are either going to land or you are going around....even go-arounds in Mooney are a handful with strong pitch up... Combine the strong pitch up with a strong crosswind ( the norm in Northam) and possibly a bounced landing (very, very easy to do in a Mooney)... I rarely do them in mine ...better to practice go-arounds

HMMMMM

A touch and go is a go around where the wheels have touched the ground, or a go around is a touch and go where the wheels didn't touch the ground. Either way if you cannot control the pitch up when power is applied then you need to consider whether or not you should be flying that aircraft, or be taking steps to reduce the pitch up forces.

As for resetting the trim before applying power on the T & G, the less said the better about that. Wasting runway space while not accelerating, not a smart idea. If you're going to do that better to plan on a stop and back track.

[Clare Prop]

Do Mooneys have electric trim? Been so long since I flew one I can't remember. I do remember they can be quite a handful if you are not a couple of steps ahead of them.

Glad the pilot, and the guys on the ground are OK.

What do balloons use for their burners? Is that huge tank full of it? :uhoh:

[EW73]

Reasonable crosswinds are fairly common at Northam, my home town!

[dubbleyew eight]

Kharon you crack me up :}

crosswind chart is on the back of the slide of my mini E6B.

...oh god no it's got a slide rule on it.:mad:

[notjustanotherpilot]

Do Mooneys have electric trim? Been so long since I flew one I can't remember. I do remember they can be quite a handful if you are not a couple of steps ahead of them.


Yes - normally. However the last several times I flew one of the Aero club ones they had been disconnected and I queried it. Apparently the maintenance on them was becoming an issue so they were all disabled.
Makes for very busy work on final-touchdown-takoff as you work the trim wheel manually because, as you may recall the position of it, although accessible for manual operation it isn't the easiest.

[awqward]

"allthecoolnamesarego

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 216
Jeez, so now it's too dangerous to do touch and go's.
Gawd help me......"

In some combination of cases (short runway, crosswind), Yes....and I know it's hard to overcome pre-war training ideas (like intentional spins), but the only reason we do TnGs is for efficient use of training time...practice go-arounds from low altitude...practice stop and goes if strong crosswind....

My M20J 205 has electric trim and I know I need to push nose down as I add power for a missed approach...

[Capn Bloggs]

All for sake of a touch of top rudder; welcome to safety – Australian style.
He was a Scot!

[awqward]

I was born in Northam and raised in the bush...have done many touch and gos at Northam...now in Scotland

But unfortunately there is some truth in the tongue-in-cheek parody of the usual way-over-the-top Autralian regulatory response!

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Awqward,

I'm not sure why you think that my joining in 2005 leads me to believe in pre WWII Training methods (perhaps posting my join date has nothing to do with it, and I'm reading too much into it)
A T&G is indeed a useful training tool to maximise landing practice, but it also a very useful tool in teaching/practicing aircraft handling. If the runway is too short, then of course a T&G is not advisable. If the x-wind is outside safe limits, then don't do it (but if that is the case, how did you get airborne in the first place??)
If a pilot can't handle a T&G, then I suggest they are not yet capable of solo flight, and need more training.
As for your comment re intentional spinning, I might be slow, but miss your point.
In a Mooney - pretty sure I agree with you. However, as an aerobatic pilot, intentional spin training is vital to my safety .

I hate having these discussions on line, because it might come across that I am talking down to you, or be righteous. I am not in any way trying to sound that way, but am merely stating a point of view that I am happy to have a civil, professional discussion about.

I have not flown a Mooney and therefore can not comment on it's handling. But from comments thus far, it seems it requires a significant trim change with power application. It seems that this would be required from a go around or aT&G, so therefore, the T&G is not the issue, but rather the lack of pitch control.
I am not pre-empting any investigation re this accident, but commenting that pitch up with power application is the issue, not the manoeuvre that preceded it.

[Pinky the pilot]

Kharon; Good one!:ok:

As for T&G's; Try doing them in a Seneca 1. :eek::uhoh:

They can be done quite easily though. But you will be busy for a bit.:hmm:

[Jack Ranga]

I don't understand why she didn't just autoland it, that's what automatics are for :ugh:

[tecman]

I must have blinked and missed the origin of this 'no touch and go' stuff. I'm reading it in quite few publications, probably partly because they all re-cycle the same material. While I concede the T&G sequence is a bit artificial, being able to quickly reconfigure the aircraft and cope with the resulting trim and other changes seems like a pretty basic competence. And I, for one, was grateful for those extra circuits on my limited, self-supplied student dollars, especially when moving to Mooneys, PA24s, etc.

[27/09]

If the runway is too short, then of course a T&G is not advisable.
If the runway is too short for a T & G then it's probably too short for a full stop landing.

[Blueskymine]

You forgot Kharon the magic words at the end.

Failure to comply is an act of strict liability :)

[Squawk7700]

I know my instructors didn't allow touch and go's during very early solo time, favouring a full-stop and back-track. That was in the first few hours, not forever. I've not heard of any suggestions from anyone ever that touch and go's are not a great idea.

[gerry111]

Squawk7700 wrote:


"I know my instructors didn't allow touch and go's during very early solo time, favouring a full-stop and back-track."


Interesting.


On my first solo, my instructor advised me to carry out as many missed approaches as necessary for one good landing. Fortunately, he had taught me well and I only did one circuit. (in a Warrior.)


My second solo was 0.4 hr and that was all touch and go's.


Since we are both still alive 7700, I guess that both ways worked OK! :ok:

[awqward]

Sorry allythecoolnames....my post was most not definitely directed at you...I didn't even notice your join date...no I was just saying that most training techniques were developed 60 or 70 years ago...and yes airplanes still basically fly the same way, but intentional spins were dropped from PPL training eventually and perhaps it is time to review the requirement for touch and gos when there is a combination of adverse factors... BUT. In no way would I advocate any change to any regulations on the subject....instructors discretion..,

Now I remember why I rarely post here! :-)

[tecman]

Squawk, I think the first time I recall seeing the debate in the popular press in recent times was in 'Flying', probably the article:

Flight School: The Touch-and-Go | Flying Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/training/learn-fly/flight-school-touch-and-go?page=0,0)

From that point there were various bastardized versions of the 'no' case in (for example) the AOPA and RAA mags and, despite the likely plagiarism as a starting point, the authors did not improve on the original.

I'm sure the question has been around much longer than that but I've been surprised at the gusto with which the case has been made - had not seen that before....and am still in favour of T&Gs.

[Homesick-Angel]

If a stall is what caused this to occur, then it's bloody lucky no one was very badly injured or worse..

[dubbleyew eight]

for someone on their way to an ATPL this has not been a good look.

[notjustanotherpilot]

If a stall is what caused this to occur, then it's bloody lucky no one was very badly injured or worse..

It was on take off and not very high, plus as mentioned earlier the design of the Mooney and the fuselage didn't take the impact - the wings and tail copped it.

[onetrack]

As I understand it, she clipped the top of the hangar with a wingtip, and somersaulted over it, and effectively belly-flopped into the position she ended up in.
It's a shame no-one took a video of her doing it - it would make for some stunning viewing, some good education for other learners - and it would have notched up 100 million hits on YooToob! :)

[Stanwell]

Thanks for that, onetrack.
Yes, I was looking - and looking at the pics after hearing the early reports and wondering 'how the ....'
I will buy her a lottery ticket in the morning.