Air Cadet minibus torched

[TheWizard]

How very brave to attack a compound used by children. Hopefully this is a one off and doesn't encourage any more stupidity. :ugh::mad:

AS a target for a protest against the military might of NATO, anarchists in Bristol could hardly have chosen a softer one.

An Air Cadets minibus used by youngsters in the city to attend activities was torched in Speedwell in an apparent attempt to send a message to "power mongering" world leaders heading to a summit today in Newport.



Read more: Anarchists torch distraught Bristol Air Cadets' minibus ahead of NATO summit | Bristol Post (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-cadets-distraught-Bristol-anarchists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html#ixzz3CLlBgKSP)
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Read more at Anarchists torch distraught Bristol Air Cadets' minibus ahead of NATO summit | Bristol Post (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Air-cadets-distraught-Bristol-anarchists-torch/story-22874098-detail/story.html#fl42Rz5ZgzjWeOV7.99)

[teeteringhead]

Follwing on from the "bravery" of the IRA in Belfast, who placed an IED at the Air Cadet Sqn there, killing a 16 yo cadet in January 1975. :(

[Wander00]

What a bunch of pathetic tossers - the so called anarchists that is. Hope someone comes up with the money for a replacement. I might try a local business that is doing rather well

[goudie]

Pathetic in the extreme. Perhaps they could have a whip round at the NATO Summit.

[barnstormer1968]

I know this particular shed on wheels.........oops, I mean minibus, and I'm surprised it hasn't already self ignited.

Oddly, the anti capitalists/anti whatever's did a similar thing a while back at HMS Flying Fox on the other side of Bristol.

I've never quite grasped how the idea of torching what is effectively a youth club minibus gives the protesters the moral high ground !

[Surplus]

It's a good job I'm not in a position of power, after carpet bombing the Middle East, I'd sort this shower of #$$% out second.


In a natural Holistic way.,

Edited to ensure one complies with today's PC world.

[Roadster280]

Sort them out second? Or in a second?

[skydiver69]

An Age Concern mini bus got torched in Leicester during the riots in 2012. The standard of the rioters was pretty low as they also looted one store and that was Poundland! Sometimes there is no accounting for the lack of ambition or stupidity of some people.

[gr4techie]

An Age Concern mini bus got torched in Leicester during the riots in 2012. The standard of the rioters was pretty low as they also looted one store and that was Poundland! Sometimes there is no accounting for the lack of ambition or stupidity of some people.

Obviously I don't condone their behaviour but reminds me of a story about the London riots... One person, asked by a journalist if rioting was really the best way to accomplish their objectives, responded: "Yes, because if we weren’t rioting, you wouldn’t be talking to us."

Point proven by your post. It got you talking about Leicester on here.

However I doubt the world leaders will miss one Air Cadet minibus and suddenly change NATO policy overnight. I'm sure they have bigger concerns.

[CISTRS]

Is this particular extension of NATO strategic power still grounded?

[Roadster280]

I do hope the police and courts use the same fast track system as they did in 2012. Riot today. Arrested, charged and in court tomorrow. In clink on remand by end of play.

[November4]

I do hope the police and courts use the same fast track system as they did in 2012. Riot today. Arrested, charged and in court tomorrow. In clink on remand by end of play.

They need to catch the idiots first.

Knowing Avon and Somekit police, am not holding my breath for that to happen as they will be doing their best to write off as the crime as spontaneous combustion due to mechanical fault and no crime.

Crime figures....got to do everything to keep them down

[SPIT]

Hi
This must have taken A LOT OF PLANNING (By Blackadder) :{:{:{

[RUCAWO]

Here is the "couragous" cnuts claim and reasons. I hope AJ can rapidly get funding for a new bus for her Sqn.

Attack on Army Cadet base in Bristol - UK Indymedia (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2014/08/517817.html)

[54Phan]

Spineless tossers!

[barnstormer1968]

November4

Just for you :)
Note the complete lack of police cordon tape or any sign of police involvement.

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx9/barnstormer1968/CA93E57C-1F05-4CBA-A600-E1CA1A7E326D.jpg

You seem to know Avon and Somerset constabulary very well. On the positive side, it's not quite been a week yet so maybe its on their 'to do' list.

[CoffmanStarter]

This is where our Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon, needs to step in immediately with an unequivocal commitment to replace the vehicle by the weekend at Public Expense. No bu99ering about with insurance claims for the ATC Squadron ... Just do it ...

If required ... Theresa May Might need to have a word with the Avon and Somerset Chief Constable ...

[barnstormer1968]

Coffman, that's a nice idea.
I don't think the insurance would pay anyway as the damage was as an act of public unrest or civil disorder so wouldn't be covered (even if the policy had been fully comp, which it wasn't). As it has now made the newspapers and internet it is public as to why is was done, as opposed to a regular vehicle fire.

Let's not forget the poor caretaker who had his car set on fire as well. This was a private car and not military in any way.

[CoffmanStarter]

BS1968 ... Even more reason for Mr Fallon to do something ...

Please do keep us informed :ok:

[skydiver69]

Note the complete lack of police cordon tape or any sign of police involvement.


There's no point putting a cordon on a burnt out vehicle as there is nothing that SOCO can do in terms of forensics, although an arson officer should have looked at it when the job was called in. Apart from that CCTV and house to house enquiries would be the most likely first investigations.

[Two's in]

The way the defence cuts have been going I wouldn't be so sure an ATC minibus is not actually a strategic asset.

[brokenlink]

Don't think an ATC minibus can be classed as strategic as the MoD do not provide or support them. Do hope the spineless cretins who torched it get all they are owed and that the sqn concerned gets mobile soon. Not sure who parents them but they should be able to borrow any available unit MT providing sqn staff have the required FMT600's signed off.

[Tankertrashnav]

From the Indymedia report

NATOs rhetoric of democracy and human rights hides its aggressive colonisation force as it moves into areas strategic for resources and political control.

That would be as opposed to Putin's non aggressive moves into Eastern Ukraine, of course! Tossers.

I used to be on the civilian committee of our local ATC squadron, and most of our time was taken up with fund-raising - mainly to buy string and glue to keep our ancient minibus going. Even 25 years ago when times in the defence world weren't nearly so hard we got no financial help from the RAF, so I wouldnt hold your breath about any being forthcoming now.

[NutLoose]

It amazes me that they have to fund transport themselves, you would think at least when service vehicles are disposed of at the "end of their military lives" some could not be passed onto the Cadet forces, after all they do that with some ex military aircraft.

And let's face it a lot of the vehicles they get shot off have years of life left in them, if I remember correctly do service vehicles not have a fixed lifetime budget on them and when that's spent they are disposed off ?

I realise that in this day an age that money is a priority and recouping it from assets, but surely this is maximising that asset.

[RUCAWO]

Don't forget they are all "white fleet" now so belong to the contractors ,so no chance of getting them for the ATC.

[NutLoose]

So when you see the likes of these, they are not from the MOD per se, but from the contractor?

Minibuses and Coaches, MOD Sales, Military Vehicles & Used Ex MOD Land Rovers for Sale (http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicles/,35,/Minibuses_and_Coaches.htm)

[Old-Duffer]

From 1958 to 1963, I was a cadet on 1860 Sqn. I shall contact the Wg HQ and see if they are making a collection for a replacement.


Interesting to see if the insurance company come up with the claim or if they class it as 'riot and civil commotion'.


Old Duffer

[Sook]

Also most white fleet minibuses are over 3 tonnes so require a D1 license to drive, which restricts them to the increasing minority of staff who have D1 by grandfather rights or can give up a week of work to go to Leconfield to do the course. Many Squadron vehicles are under 3 tonnes and are operated on Permit 19s which allow most staff to drive them on their regular car licenses.

[pohm1]

skydiver69

There's no point putting a cordon on a burnt out vehicle as there is nothing that SOCO can do in terms of forensics,

Not true, I had the pleasure of charging an arsonist who set light to a vehicle via an accelerant, using his cigarette as the ignition source. He dropped the butt side of the vehicle, and the DNA on it was enough to place him at the scene.

P1

[skydiver69]

I stand corrected although in my defence I was thinking more about the actual fire than forensic opportunities outside the vehicle.

[The Old Fat One]

I don't think the insurance would pay anyway as the damage was as an act of public unrest or civil disorder so wouldn't be covered (even if the policy had been fully comp, which it wasn't)

No disrespect but are you sure? It is quite difficult to buy third party motor insurance and even if you do it costs MORE than Fully Comp. I doubt that vehicle could have been operated legally with minors on board, without fully comprehensive insurance and this is not an act of civil unrest it is arson, which is covered.

If the vehicle is correctly insured the insurance will pay out, no question. If it is not, then somebody is for the high jump

[barnstormer1968]

The old fat one.
The minibus was third party insured.
The linked article says so, and so do the squadron.
Insurance policies always have lots of get out clauses built in, and acts of riot or civil unrest often fall into this category.
The 'fire' part of a policy clearly can't cover all fires as there could otherwise be a spate of fires started by vehicle owners when they fancied a new car :)

[RUCAWO]

Even if the insurance covers it probably lowest book price so not nearly enough to buy a replacement vehicle .

Used LDV Minibus Vans for Sale at Auto Trader Vans (http://vans.autotrader.co.uk/used-vans/type/minibus/ldv?longitude=-5.7023494169&locationName=NEWTOWNARDS&latitude=54.582524853&postcode=BT23&pageNumber=7)

[G-ARZG]

It's clear from earlier threads that many ppruners can trace their aviation careers back to ATC (or CCF) units. Where do I send my cheque to help buy another bus?

[brokenlink]

G-ARZG - if you PM me I'll forward your kind request onto that squadron via the official e-mail.

Thank you again for your kind thoughts.

Regards,

BL

[Bigbux]

It's clear from earlier threads that many ppruners can trace their aviation careers back to ATC (or CCF) units. Where do I send my cheque to help buy another bus?

Here here

copy me on the details and I'll contribute a tenner. Any other PPruners up for it?

Nutloose - what's the equivalent of Cmd MT nowadays? I would imagine that the disposals contract covers only vehicles that are allocated as surplus to requirements. What's the chance of linking HQAC up with them to get some kind of dialogue going? This is a low cost no-brainer. I can absolutely guarantee that the return the RAF gets from the contract is nowhere near the prices charged by the "surplus" re-sellers so we would not be looking at cutting the F-35 Fleet to fund something here.

[barnstormer1968]

Brokenlink
I've sent you a PM

[Wander00]

There's a thought - a PPrune sponsored replacement minibus.....................


OK, PPrune sponsored wheels for a replacement minibus......

[Roadster280]

Maybe its time for a re-think on cadets.

Cadets are a fertile recruiting ground for the Armed Forces. I'd say easily 25% of those serving have been in one of the cadet forces. Why aren't they properly resourced?

They wear military uniforms (but must buy their own boots), fire military weapons, using military ammo, eat military rations, why can't they use military MT? MT often sits idle on the weekends, when the cadets are busy. Just license the instructors appropriately, or pay ED pay to serving staff to drive for them. In the grand scheme of things, it would cost pennies.

The MT would also live in more secure accommodation. It's not that far of a stretch to suggest that anyone torching a minibus on an RAF station, Army barracks or RN shore establishment leaves themselves open to being shot in the process.

[Old-Duffer]

I am told that the police and a local sign painter have come up trumps and a replacement minibus is being provided for the sqn. This is good news and as an old boy of the sqn, I am delighted and pleased for them.


Old Duffer

[barnstormer1968]

If that is true then I'm delighted too for the cadets of the squadron.

[Wander00]

If it turns out like that, then brilliant. Unfortunately my contact was unable to help as charity allocations for the year had been finalised. good luck to the sqn.

[The Helpful Stacker]

MT often sits idle on the weekends, when the cadets are busy. Just license the instructors appropriately, or pay ED pay to serving staff to drive for them. In the grand scheme of things, it would cost pennies.

The MT would also live in more secure accommodation. It's not that far of a stretch to suggest that anyone torching a minibus on an RAF station, Army barracks or RN shore establishment leaves themselves open to being shot in the process.

Whilst I agree with this in principle the practicalities of this is not that great, primarily due to the distance many parenting units are from their cadet squadrons.

When I was a cadet we were parented by RAF Uxbridge, yet I was a member of a squadron in Kent Wing, not the shortest of journeys to pick up rifles etc for shooting at Ash, let alone to pick up a vehicle. Then as a serviceman I was responsible for parented cadet units when I was at Headley Court, 48 squadrons (if memory serves me correct) yet our MT fleet consisted of a few cars and three minibuses, not a great deal to offer.

If local TA units could be used then such a scheme could theoretically become more practical but they parent Army Cadet units, which are more numerous, and white fleet wise, TA umits don't have a great deal of minibuses either (lots of Land Rovers and 4 Tonners though, both unable to be used to carry cadets).

[Old-Duffer]

Parenting of cadet units is a major problem these days.


One needs only look at a map of the UK to see how few stations there now are and hence how many ATC units (there are about 1000 sqns) some RAF stations will be supporting.


Travel to ones parenting unit will be a journey of several hours for some.


O-D

[Adj1860 Air Cadets]

Thank you for your kind words throughout this thread.

All at 1860 Sqn are touched by how far reaching our story has become.

We have recently received confirmation that the Avon and Somerset Police are kindly donating a vehicle which has come to the end of its service life.
We do not yet know the condition or suitability of the vehicle, so have started an appeal to raise funds for a replacement minibus or to alter the donated vehicle.


We hope to have a Just Giving webpage live in the next few days.

If you would like to contribute to this appeal by cheque, please send a cheque made payable to 1860 East Bristol ATC Welfare Fund.

Please send the cheque to our Wing HQ at the following address:

1860 East Bristol Sqn
C (https://mail.aircadets.org/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx)/O Bristol and Gloucestershire Wing HQ
4 Highliffe Drive (https://mail.aircadets.org/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx)
Quedgeley (https://mail.aircadets.org/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx)
Gloucestershire (https://mail.aircadets.org/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx)
GL2 4QN (https://mail.aircadets.org/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx)

Once again, many thanks for your support.

Si


Simon Claridge
Adjutant
Flying Officer RAF VR(T)
1860 East Bristol Squadron
Air Training Corps
[email protected]

[Aggamemnon]

Cadet units are entitled to access to white fleet vehicles (with drivers if necessary) to support training via project Phoenix.

[Roadster280]

Cadet units are entitled to access to white fleet vehicles (with drivers if necessary) to support training via project Phoenix.

There we go; excellent.

[Wander00]

ISTR that the police are responsible for replacing stuff destroyed or damaged as a result of riot under what may still be called the Town Police Clauses Act 18??. I think it applied after the Garden House Hotel riot in Cambridge in the early 70s

[Tashengurt]

I don't think one burnt out minibus constitutes a riot.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Wander00]

Riot Legal Definition: Three or more persons who assemble and advance a purpose together, with the intent to use force if necessary, and raising alarm of a reasonable person(s). Not the outcome that is the issue, so...............

[tmmorris]

Sorry, Roadster280, excuse me while I laugh hollowly...

Have you actually tried using PHOENIX to get transport? ATC sqns have always been entitled to demand transport. Why do you think so many have spent their own cash on a minibus?

[Aggamemnon]

tmmorris - Yes, quite successfully.

[Roadster280]

Have you actually tried using PHOENIX to get transport? ATC sqns have always been entitled to demand transport. Why do you think so many have spent their own cash on a minibus?

Not being a cadet instructor, no.

But if you and others have, and it has failed, why has this happened? Has it been staffed up through the CoC?

If a facility or service exists (that the MOD, and therefore every taxpayer, is paying for), and it is not working, then the "users" of that service are reasonably entitled to ask why not, and get it working.

You are/were entitled to have combat clothing laundered by the military to preserve the IRR dyes in the fabric. Granted it was an utter ball-ache to push it though (everyone used their own washing machines), but despite the fences thrown up by the relevant departments, they couldn't actually say "no".

[incubus]

While the ATC can call upon whitefleet for approved "corps" activities, the drivers also need to jump through the MT hoops to do so (D1 license, MT600 etc.)

SOVs are more flexible, always available, may not require D1, don't need a 600 and can be used to support any squadron activity regardless of whether it attracts MOD funding (is sports, social events).

[Mr C Hinecap]

pay ED pay to serving staff to drive for them

That's certainly not going to happen. With manning always tight and legal driving and rest hours on the drivers, they don't have very much slack in the system to support non-military tasks.
As has been said elsewhere - there are some precise definitions of what military MT can be used for. A lot of what an ATC Sqn might want to do is going to be outside those definitions. Hence they have their own vehicles.

By the way; there are over 1000 ATC Sqns across the UK. That is a lot to support with a dwindling RAF.

[dagenham]

1000 gosh.... best news all day. Makes one quite proud to know there are so many kids wanting to be part of it all and adults willing to volunteer to support.

In a day when it is so easy to get jaded this was glorious to read

:D

[romeo bravo]

Aggamemnon - I take it you have access to DII then......

Bookings can only be done on a DII terminal (or that's what we are told), which for ATC Sqns is at Wing HQ level. As for CCF, don't know; maybe TMMorris can enlighten us on that.

[barnstormer1968]

Maybe someone could post up some useful info regarding white fleet or hire vehicles.
It seems the ATC are a bit useless here sometimes, while the ACF find using the above vehicles very simple.
The ACF do have their own core white fleet but do also use hire vehicles of varying sizes whenever needed.........including at the same cadet centre this thread is based on.
This all sounds a bit like a lack of willingness or understanding from some within the ATC, as squadrons are using the SAME system with differing results.

[RUCAWO]

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/newsroom/police-donate-former-support-group-van-to-speedwell-air-cadets/

Well done Avon and Somerset :ok::D

[Aggamemnon]

I've found it quite simple. Request to Wing HQ for Phoenix support, Wing make the booking, wagon delivered.