WELL DONE FRANCE!

[Onceapilot]

Looks like the French have made a bold move that they should be proud of by withholding delivery of the warships to Russia:D.
How much difference would they make to the Russian capability though?

OAP

[Lonewolf_50]

Minimal difference.

[Capetonian]

My guess is that they will sell them to someone else, who will sell them to the Russkis while the Gauls tournent l'oeil aveugle and deny all knowledge of subterfuge.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Capetonian - Indeed. How long before Nauru puts out a UOR for a helicopter carrier?

;)

[Basil]

Perhaps they could also consider witholding delivery of illegal immigrants to the UK :ok:

BBC News - Calais mayor warns of blockade over illegal migration (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29041621)
The mayor of the northern French city of Calais has threatened to block the port unless Britain does more to control the number of illegal migrants.

[BATCO]

.. we could use ships like these.

Mistral-class amphibious assault ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship)

However, and before everyone points out that we are broke, I know we are broke. But to dream, they would be better amphibs than the QE class and outlast Ocean.

Regards
Batco

[The Helpful Stacker]

.. we could use ships like these.

Yeah but think of the extra cost in order to make them suitable for those with Hearts of Oak.

Would it be cheaper to change all the plug sockets or buy a job lot of compatible iPod chargers?

[MPN11]

Nice decision, and good to see someone saying something positive about the Snail-munchers.

Do we need them? Can we afford them? Would we buy French, instead of giving BAe or whoever twice as much ££££ for less?

As to how UK blocks Calais, would Jacques approve of a couple of Bns of squaddies on their soil protecting our 'outer border'?

[Ian Corrigible]

Probably only a temporary situation.

1: Halt delivery of Vladivostok
2: Assist in negotiation of a ceasefire
3: Deliver Vladivostok
4: Feign shock when ceasefire is broken shortly after delivery

(Repeat for Sevastopol.)

Not that France is unique: the UK's cross-party Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls reported in July (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28424395) that 251 arms export licences to Russia were still active, with a value of £132 million. Items covered by the permits include sniper rifles, night sights and various munitions components.

I/C

[rh200]

How much difference would they make to the Russian capability though?

Short term zilch.

Long term it might encourage them to build their own.

That said, its a bit unwise supplying your a country that is determined to be a potential enemy with capital equipment.

[500N]

That said, its a bit unwise supplying your a country that is determined to be a potential enemy with capital equipment.

If you don't, someone else will.

And as you say, they can always build there own.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Looks like the French have made a bold move that they should be proud of by withholding delivery of the warships to Russia

Better hope the French have a much better energy policy than the UK and goods gas stocks; might be chilly this winter!

[Jimlad1]

To be honest the last thing the RN needs is extra amphib capability - we've got tonnes of it and don't use most of it in role. There is only 1 LPD active at any one time and the LSD(A) seems to be spending a lot of time doing non amphib stuff.

I'm all for getting new kit, but don't think we need to buy more amphib stuff when what we've got is perfectly good at the moment for what we need to do - the sort of funds we're talking about would go a long way to sorting the MPA replacement out.

More pertinently, have you seen the interior of a Russian warship - I suspect any RN crew assigned to these ships would mutiny very quickly. Check out photos on the state of the Kuznetzov.

[West Coast]

If this brewhaha ends with Vlad and company heading home, they'll get the ships.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

I would suggest that, if they could build their own, they would have! The fact that they bought the Mistrals from France suggests they can't.

[rh200]

Better hope the French have a much better energy policy than the UK

The French produce on average 120% of there electricity requirements from non fossil fuel methods 100% of the time, as such they export on average 20% of it. They have roughly 100% Nuclear and 20% Hydro. Those figures obviously go up and down depending on the base load.

The Frogs don't need gas and can tell Putin where to go. That doesn't mean they don't use gas, for heating, but they don't have to.

[tdracer]

France should deliver the ships, after a little additional feature is added. A nice, well hidden, remote controlled self destruct system.:ok:


Mr. Putin, really, your new ship was getting ready to land some troops and it suddenly sank? No idea how that could have happened, did you read all the user manuals we sent along?:E

[Buster Hyman]

That said, its a bit unwise supplying your a country that is determined to be a potential enemy with capital equipment.
Unless there's a "kill" switch.

[ShotOne]

"How would Jacques approve of couple of bn's of squaddies protecting our outer border..." Or alternatively we could modify our benefit system such that we're not viewed as"Eldorado" by migrants who hop over numerous borders to get here.

[Ronald Reagan]

Its outrageous of the French to do this. I hope Russia get the ships eventually. Russia should know better than to try and deal with the west though.

[melmothtw]

Russia should know better than to try and deal with the west though.


I don't know - Arctic convoys of World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_convoys_of_World_War_II)

[Ronald Reagan]

They went on to beat Nazi Germany for us with terrible loss of life. How did the west repay them decades later?! By extending NATO, the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation all the way right up to the borders of Russia. The Russian government are the good guys here and the west are up to their usual dirty tricks. Its all about control, the west wishes to dominate the entire world while Russia is only really concerned about maintaining control of nations close to it, their own backyard.

[melmothtw]

They went on to beat Nazi Germany for us with terrible loss of life.

I dare say there will be a fair few veterans in this country and many others how might take exception to that, especially as it was Britain alone that kept the fight going against the Nazis while the Soviet Union was hiding behind its Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. That said, no one in the West would deny the sacrifice that the Russian people made in WW2.

The Russian government are the good guys here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation all the way right up to the borders of Russia.


NATO has always bordered Russia/USSR (think Turkey), and as has been said here before, NATO is not expanding east, it's the East looking to join NATO (the reason being Russia of course). But you're not interested in arguing the facts Ronald from 'Cornwall', so will leave it at that.



Russia is only really concerned about maintaining control of nations close to it


And that'll be why they want to join NATO, probably.

[Ronald Reagan]

Without the Soviets its almost certain Nazi Germany would not have been defeated.


Washington and Bonn promised Gorbachev that NATO would not move eastwards at the end of the cold war. This promise was broken. The west cannot be trusted, as simple as that. There was no reason on our part to grant NATO membership for any former Soviet or Warsaw Pact nations. Its not as if they have brought significant military capabilities to the alliance and allowing them to join has made a future war more likely. Seems to me the so called alliance is rapidly spreading far away from the North Atlantic! Its an organisation that has no worthwhile role in the modern era and should be abolished as soon as possible.


You need to re-evaluate who the bad guys are Mel!

[melmothtw]

Your quote:

Without the Soviets its almost certain Nazi Germany would not have been defeated.

My quote:

I dare say there will be a fair few veterans in this country and many others how might take exception to that, especially as it was Britain alone that kept the fight going against the Nazis while the Soviet Union was hiding behind its Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. That said, no one in the West would deny the sacrifice that the Russian people made in WW2.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I do however, disagree with your earlier statement They went on to beat Nazi Germany for us for the reasons I've given (and others).

Washington and Bonn promised Gorbachev that NATO would not move eastwards at the end of the cold war. This promise was broken. The west cannot be trusted, as simple as that. There was no reason on our part to allow NATO membership for any former Soviet or Warsaw Pact nations.

If you want to talk about broken promises Ronald, we can talk about the promise that Russia made to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. How is that working out?

there was no reason on our part to allow NATO membership for any former Soviet or Warsaw Pact nations.

No reason other than these nations all requested it because they know better than anyone how Russia regards its neighbours. You said it yourself Russia is only really concerned about maintaining control of nations close to it

You need to re-evaluate who the bad guys are Mel!

You need to get your news from somewhere other than RT.

The fact is Ronald, I am not on here pretending to be someone/something I am not. Can you say the same, Ronald from 'Cornwall'.

[Not_a_boffin]

You need to re-evaluate your location Ronnie. I hear Novosibirsk is pleasant this time of year......

[PhilipG]

Ronald Reagan

I assume that you feel that the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, under which the Ukraine relinquished the stockpile of nuclear weapons, the third largest in the word, for guarantees of territorial integrity, a treaty signed by The Russian Federation, The United States and The United Kingdom, has no relevance here?

If you breach an agreement, in most peoples eyes you are a bad guy....

[Ronald Reagan]

RT is one of the few good sources of news left. One has to ignore every western media source due to pro western propaganda.
The west is like 1984, everything is controlled and monitored. Its all about the continuation of the western elite remaining in power no matter what the cost.
That's what the cold war was about, its got nothing to do with saving so called democracy but everything to do with keeping the elite rich, they would have lost it all had communism prevailed!
Now they wish to control the Ukraine as they control all of eastern Europe. Eventually they wish to control Russia to and all those resources.

[Ronald Reagan]

No Philip, Britain has no need to honour it, certainly not after the coup in Kiev when the elected President was ousted in a western coup.


If Russia wants to rebuild the whole USSR then let them, who on earth wants to risk World War 3 and nuclear destruction of the world to prevent it. We lived with the USSR before and we can do it again.

[melmothtw]

Now they wish to control the Ukraine as they control all of eastern Europe. Eventually they wish to control Russia to and all those resources

Careful Ronald, the mask is slipping. Surely you mean 'we' and not 'they'....

[PhilipG]

I suppose that if the Russian Federation has decided not to honour the treaty as regards the territorial integrity of The Ukraine, The Ukraine could ask for the Thermo Nuclear Weapons back....

[rh200]

Ronalds firing on all cylinders today, must be a slow day at the office in Moscow.

It sad that in the twentieth century a major power and their supporters don't believe in the basic right to self determination.

[barnstormer1968]

Vlad's puppet said

"If Russia wants to rebuild the whole USSR then let them, who on earth wants to risk World War 3 and nuclear destruction of the world to prevent it. We lived with the USSR before and we can do it again."

That is an interesting point. When two large parties have nuclear weapons and live next to each other and one party sends troops to invade invade a sovereign state one of those parties is surely risking escalation.
Anyone can live in cloud cookoo land but the fact is that we weren't discussing a threat of WW3 BEFORE the Crimea annex, were we Ronald?

[strake]

RT is one of the few good sources of news left.

After picking myself up off the floor from howling with laughter at that statement, I showed it to my wife who hails from your part of the world - Russia that is, not Cornwall.
Her response was 'Tell him to go ask the journalists from RT why they keep resigning then...'

[melmothtw]

I've said it before, but it seems especially apt for Ronald and his blinkered view of Russia, Ukraine, and NATO; 'There are none so blind as those that choose not to see'.

[ImageGear]

Remind me how Berlin ended up well inside East Germany? :ugh:

[Ronald Reagan]

Remember it did not start with the Russian liberation of Crimea but the western coup in Kiev, that's how this all began. The evil and immoral expansionism of the puppet EU with the full backing and support of the American Empire. Russia is right to stick up for the people of Novorossiya and bring them freedom and liberation.
Its great to see a nation stand up to the EU and US. The sooner China replaces the USA as the most powerful nation on Earth the better off the world will be.

[Not_a_boffin]

RT is one of the few good sources of news left. One has to ignore every western media source due to pro western propaganda.
The west is like 1984, everything is controlled and monitored. Its all about the continuation of the western elite remaining in power no matter what the cost.
That's what the cold war was about, its got nothing to do with saving so called democracy but everything to do with keeping the elite rich, they would have lost it all had communism prevailed!
Now they wish to control the Ukraine as they control all of eastern Europe. Eventually they wish to control Russia to and all those resources.

I'm beginning to think we may have misidentified Ronnie. He's beginning to sound a lot like this bloke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:David_Icke_by_Stef_(cropped).jpg

and his entirely credible theories.....

Reptilians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilians#David_Icke)

[Basil]

RR, If we - that's the Brits and, initially, the Brits alone - had not made war on Germany with all means at our disposal, Hitler could have turned on Russia at his leisure. Had he attacked in full force before Russian production, defence and supply was rearranged he stood a good chance of winning.

[melmothtw]

The sooner China replaces the USA as the most powerful nation on Earth the better off the world will be.

Now you're just copying-and-pasting your earlier rants.

[Ronald Reagan]

It is coming though Mel, a world dominated by China, India and Russia. NATO, the EU and Washington will be irrelevant in the new order.

[melmothtw]

I'm happy that the prospect makes you happy Ronald.

[Buster Hyman]

I wonder what it's like to be irrelevant in the here and now?

[rh200]

Tell him to go ask the journalists from RT why they keep resigning then

Or go missing, or end up in hospital. That said we do also have to be careful to not confuse some stuff with overenthusiastic nationalism in some case, we get that occasionally as well.

[The Baron]

Er..., Ronnie,

do you think now is a good time to ask your comrades to give Koenigsberg back?

[Ronald Reagan]

The USSR won the war did they not comrade?! I think they (Russian Federation) should have retained a large presence across Europe to prevent future wars, its a shame they left most of the territory at the end of the cold war yet Washington keeps military bases across Europe.
If Russia wishes to rebalance things then fine.

[melmothtw]

You on the afternoon shift at the Kremlin today Ronald from 'Cornwall'?

How many times do you have to reread your posts to make sure you've not slipped in an inadvertent 'we' instead of 'they' before you post??

[Buster Hyman]

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-don-t-feed-the-troll-22.png

[Ronald Reagan]

I am just here to help you all understand the situation better. I know it won't work as for years you have almost all certainly suffered western propaganda. I used to believe their lies to, they even conned me into supporting the Iraq war. But once they tried it in Libya I could see through their lies and despite that failure and disaster they wanted to do it again in Syria, they still might.

[melmothtw]

Advice noted and accepted Buster.

[Courtney Mil]

Don't worry, Mel. He'll go away again once he's reached his monthly post quota.

[melmothtw]

Don't worry, Mel. He'll go away again once he's reached his monthly post quota.

:ok:

[rh200]

Don't feed the Troll.

Oh come on, he is humorous. we need some light relief sometimes, its not as if anyone takes him seriously do they?

[West Coast]

Probably takes himself serious as he doles out the Putin's honest truth.

[TheWestCoast]

I was reading all the Ronald Reagan posts and assuming it was all a tongue in cheek joke, but looking again, wow. :ooh:

[Bigbux]

Given Putin's miscalculations vis a vis Western reactions to the Crimean annexation and subsequent invasion of Ukraine, he's probably getting his arse kicked for delivering a duff briefing.

Hence he's really keen to gauge Western appetite for conflict with Russia. Strange he should try and do this on a forum populated by so many who joined up and served at the height of the Cold War.

Does he really think we would shirk an unpleasant task?

[Reinhardt]

The Assault Ship "Vladivostok" left St Nazaire harbour yesterday night at 2.30 am, for a 10-days cruise in the Atlantic with her Russian crew on board (circa 300) and a couple of French Navy instructors .....

[rh200]

The Assault Ship "Vladivostok" left St Nazaire harbour yesterday night at 2.30 am, for a 10-days cruise in the Atlantic with her Russian crew on board (circa 300) and a couple of French Navy instructors .....

Will be interesting to see if it returns:E

[NutLoose]

I hate so say this, but where has R R gone, I enjoyed his posts.

[West Coast]

recalled to Moscow for consultations.

[GreenKnight121]

The Assault Ship "Vladivostok" left St Nazaire harbour yesterday night at 2.30 am, for a 10-days cruise in the Atlantic with her Russian crew on board (circa 300) and a couple of French Navy instructors .....


Actually, just a bit more even than that...

Russian Sailors to Take Part in Mistral Warship Sea Trials in France | Russia | RIA Novosti (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140912/192896867/Russian-Sailors-to-Take-Part-in-Mistral-Warship-Sea-Trials-in-France.html)

Russian Sailors to Take Part in Mistral Warship Sea Trials in France (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140912/192896867/Russian-Sailors-to-Take-Part-in-Mistral-Warship-Sea-Trials-in-France.html)

PARIS, September 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russian sailors, who are currently training to crew Mistral-class helicopter carriers, built in France for the Russian Navy (http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140912/192883115/Crimean-Official-Russian-Black-Sea-Fleet-Ready-to-Homeport.html), will go to sea Saturday morning to take part in sea trials of the first ship ordered by Moscow, the Vladivostok, a source familiar with the situation told RIA Novosti.


"Yes, Vladivostok will indeed sail Saturday morning for tests. As far as I know, about 200 Russian sailors and the same number of French personnel will be on board," the source said.


This is the first time the ship goes to the sea since the two crews of Russian sailors, a total of 400 people, arrived in the French (http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140904/192634350/Expert-Hollandes-Decision-to-Postpone-Mistral-Delivery-to-Russia.html) town of Saint-Nazaire in June.

[Chugalug2]

France halts delivery of warship to Russia in protest at role in Ukraine | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/03/france-halts-delivery-warship-russia)

First Mistral-Class Ship Built for Russia Sets Off for Sea Trials: Reports | Russia | RIA Novosti (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140913/192905655/First-Mistral-Class-Ship-Built-for-Russia-Sets-Off-for-Sea.html)

So not so much that they can instead eat cake, but have it too? Well done indeed France!

[rh200]

It all explains why the Russians didn't chuck the sh!ts when the Frogs said they weren't getting their ship.

We will see what happens when it comes to handing over the keys day.

[Wander00]

Do we need another OP CHARIOT to keep them locked up in port..................

[Reinhardt]

Do we need another OP CHARIOT to keep them locked up in port ?


You can dream as much as you want (from the peace of France, it seems, along with the health and social benefits...)
The assault forces which did Chariot now exist only in your dreams, in front of the History Channel ..... Anyway, they were good in Saint Nazaire for sure, as good as they had been in running away from Dunkirk, and surrendering in Singapore
And what does remain of them is probably based in Scotland now, so they might be busy quite soon packing away


Best wishes to the Vladivostk and its crew


Davaï !

[rh200]

Do we need another OP CHARIOT to keep them locked up in port.

I wonder how much protection it is sailing with? I wonder how deep the water it is sailing in is? I thought the Ukrainians had a submarine. Good plausible deniablity, more so than the Russians on their soil.:E

[ImageGear]

Nothing left now - went in March with the invasion of Crimea.

The Russian Navy said Saturday that it took over Ukraine’s only submarine, based in Sevastopol, Crimea.

It is now part of Russia’s historic Black Sea Fleet and brings the number of Russian subs stationed in the Crimean peninsula to four.

But this ship is barely sea-worthy, so it’s far from a steal for the Russian defense department.

The St.Andrew’s flag of the Russian Navy was raised on the Zaporizhzhia submarine today, which was commissioned back in 1970 and is considered outdated.

Captain Anatoly Varochkin, the commander of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet’s submarine unit, told RIA Novosti that half of the Zaporizhzhia’s crew, including the sub’s captain, left for Ukraine while the remainder of the vessel’s crew will reportedly serve the Russian navy. Law enforcement authorities in Crimea have released from duties Sergei Gaiduk, the commander of the Ukrainian navy, along with seven others detained Wednesday in the Crimean city of Sevastopol, the KrymInform news agency reported Thursday.

Imagegear

[effing Finn]

I didn't know Qatar is right next (cubicle) to Cornwall...

Double-checking the RIA Novosti piece (Russian Sailors to Take Part in Sea Trials on Mistral Warship) as is always a healthy habit... I found the same news referenced in multiple sites, most citing RIA or RT as the source, some citing AFP as the original source. Some of these had 13 Sep as the date (of the newspiece and the departure), some had 16 Sep. Browsing AFP.com now, I don't find that original source. Latest bit seems to be this from 18 Sep, quoting Hollande:

"In regards to the Mistral ships, which were to be delivered (to Russia) at the end of October, I have already said that in the current circumstances, that won't be possible. But if the ceasefire is respected, if order is restored, then they can be delivered and the contract be executed. But we're not there yet."

(Unpopular Hollande faces questions from media | AFP.com (http://www.afp.com/en/node/2849843))

Anyone seen the sea trials with Russian sailors reported by a respectable news agency? A linky would be nice. One would think it would make a bit of a splash, what with the recent French statements suggesting the deal is frozen now. (Or maybe I'm giving this too much importance, maybe the two things don't rule out each other after all?)

[Lordflasheart]

Vladivostok labouré sillons dans le oggin près de Belle-Isle toute la semaine dernière et est maintenant amarré à Saint-Nazaire. Quel que soit le prochain? LFH

[Ian Corrigible]

Nous pourrions voir une répétition de "The Boats of Cherbourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherbourg_Project)," peut-être ?

I/C

[Chugalug2]

Cherbourg Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherbourg_Project)

Class! I don't think that the Russian Navy does class though. Or does it?

[Lordflasheart]

The Vlad V sailed around midnight 23rd Sept for a second workup/sea trials off Belle Ile. Returned to Saint Nazaire 10pm 2nd Oct. At one time she was being shadowed by the Invincible. Turned out this was a French Pilot boat rather than the ghost of the Brit Pilots' boat. Now tied up in the Saint Nazaire Louis Joubert Lock which appears to occupy the same real estate as the old Normandie dry dock of 1942 Chariot fame.

Mr Vlad P says isn't it time the sanctions were relaxed because now is all quiet on the eastern front ? Разве это не истины товарища?


LFH

[rh200]

Mr Vlad P says isn't it time the sanctions were relaxed because now is all quiet on the eastern front

Hmm I sure the Ukrainian forces having the cr@p kicked out of them by Russian troops in Donesk airport might have a different opinion.:p

[NutLoose]

Mr Vlad P says isn't it time the sanctions were relaxed because now is all quiet on the eastern front ? Разве это не истины товарища?

Tell that to the Red Cross or those living near the airport.

[Ronald Reagan]

The sanctions should have never been applied in the first place, the whole thing is a joke really. Russia has as much right to be in Ukraine as the US has to be in or bomb Syria! (or Iraq for that matter in 2003)


Continued EU expansion has done Britain no favours, its been a disaster.

[rh200]

Russia has as much right to be in Ukraine as the US has to be in or bomb Syria! (or Iraq for that matter in 2003)

Even though I'm feeding the troll, it just can't be helped.:p

Ok Ronald, can you clear this up.

Your saying Russia has a right to intervene in Ukraine, hence the US has a right to intervene in Iraqi and Syria?

Your saying that Russia has a right to invade and annex Ukraine, hence the US has a right to invade and annex Iraqi and Syria.

Or are you saying Russia has no right to do what its doing, neither has the US.

Amazing how you can group two completely different scenarios (and objectives) into the same thing.

[Ronald Reagan]

rh200, Obama basically said the US has the right to intervene anywhere if US interests are threatened. Going by that Russia can intervene anywhere if its interests are threatened, come to that so can anyone else at anytime anywhere!


Russia cannot be expected to tolerate Ukraine in NATO or the EU.
As a citizen of a NATO and EU country I see no gain for us by having Ukraine in either NATO or the EU.


Washington makes the rules up as they go along, they really should not complain if others decide to do the same. One could say Washington has set a precedent.


I certainly think seeing the Russians taking a hard line in Eastern Ukraine or Novorossiya as they call it now to protect the civilian population is a good thing. They have essentially created a new country, liberated people from a tyranny they no longer wished to be part of.

[Lordflasheart]

From docking on 2nd Oct and going off-line after two ten day shakedown/training cruises, Vladi rematerialised a couple of days ago, alongside in the Penhoet Basin.

Yesterday Oct 13, she was shown as next scheduled to move on 20/21 November.

Today, Vladi has been re-scheduled to depart early Friday 17th Oct. Destination/purpose unstated.

TS Smolniy is also in St Nazaire since 30 June, being used as floating HQ and accommodation for the two crews, each 200 strong.

October 31 is apparently the date beyond which late-delivery penalties apply.

"MOSCOW, October 14 (RIA Novosti) – Paris did not notify Moscow about cancelling the Mistral-class warship deal and the delivery schedule remains unchanged, Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said Tuesday. "No formal cancellations were received. The schedule remains unchanged,” the minister said."


Приятного путешествия товарищей LFH

[Courtney Mil]

Ronald. You don't get any better do you? Perhaps I can help you.

Russia cannot be expected to tolerate Ukraine in NATO or the EU.

That would be a decision for Ukraine and for NATO. It's exactly your sort of "Russia won't allow it" politics that completely undermines any criticism you make of any other country.

As a citizen of a NATO and EU country I see no gain for us by having Ukraine in either NATO or the EU.


Without raking up the whole "RR's citizenship" issue again, you may not be able to see it, but the Ukraine and plenty of other nations well may. I'm amazed their governments have failed to share their thinking with you.

They have essentially created a new country, liberated people from a tyranny they no longer wished to be part of.

"They", presumably being Russia, are allowed to do that are they? Not what you were saying about anyone else.

The sanctions should have never been applied in the first place, the whole thing is a joke really.

None of this could ever be described as a "joke". Apart from that, bigger minds than yours, with or without US alegence (just in case you thought it all a US conspiracy) thought it was necessary to protect the sovereignty of a country under threat. But you won't see it that way.

Russia has as much right to be in Ukraine as the US has to be in or bomb Syria! (or Iraq for that matter in 2003)

So are you now saying the US does have the right to be in or bomb Iraq and Syria? Or are you saying Russia does not have the right to be in Ukraine? You appear to have confused yourself.

Continued EU expansion has done Britain no favours, its been a disaster.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Some, including countries that worked hard to join the Union, clearly think otherwise. So do many traders and businesses in the UK. But you probably regard them as filthy capitalists. If it's really that bad for the UK, not Btitain necessarily, the people of the UK may well get to option to express their preference to leave.

Hope that helps.

[Lordflasheart]

Only 330 killed in eastern Ukraine fighting since the Minsk ceasefire Sept 5th.

[Courtney Mil]

Not sure how this thread ended up doing Ukraine, but here goes the latest...

Putin warns U.S. spat over Ukraine threatens global stability | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/15/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-nuclear-idUSKCN0I42FW20141015)

P.S. You're very quite, Ronald.

[Courtney Mil]

Closer to the thread. How long can France keep it up?

France's military pays price for country's debt - The Local (http://www.thelocal.fr/20141015/france-defence-cuts-spending-austerity)

[Lordflasheart]

I think the Ukraine connection is that the alleged withholding of delivery of the Vladivostok is France's own response (ie contribution to sanctions) to the perceived Russian actions in and around eastern Ukraine. Are they serious or is it just cosmetic sham ?

The Vladivostok has done two shakedown/training cruises, one for each Russian crew, and seems to be in all respects ready for ceremonial handing over the keys and departure for the Rodina.

Three days ago her next sailing was shown as 20/21 Nov. That changed to Friday 17th Oct at 0345 – less than 24 hrs from now. Since my last post, all sailing dates seem to have been removed from public view. That could mean anything.

Ronnie did reply briefly, along the lines of "shame about all them deaths ... but ...." Must have thought better of it or has been recalled for re-education, because that post was quickly removed.

The Russian press is all saying its ops/contract normal. There are two French factions, for and against delivery. Demos take place on the quay side, at the front and back ends respectively.

My guess ? They'll skip the PU and very soon we'll all be singing red sails in the sunset instead. . LFH

[Lordflasheart]

Vladivostok was moved into the Normandie lock before dawn and left Saint Nazaire about 0900Z

She settled on quite a steady (for a new helmsman anyway) course of 250 at about 12 kts. for over three hours. Previous training sorties have not gone much beyond the SN1 Buoy about 15 nm west of Noirmoutier.

She's now turned round, making it look like another shakedown or training cruise. . LFH

[Courtney Mil]

I think the Ukraine connection is that the alleged withholding of delivery of the Vladivostok is France's own response (ie contribution to sanctions) to the perceived Russian actions in and around eastern Ukraine.


Oh, yeah, bollocks. Sorry.

[Lordflasheart]

By 1800z Saturday 18th October, Vladivostok was back alongside above the St Nazaire bridge, after a day trip on the briny.

At 1900z Sunday 19th off to sea again. Manoeuvres off shore south of Belle Ile for four days, until Thursday - back into St Nazaire, towed through the Normandie lock and tied up in the Penhoet Basin by 1630z.

No forecast sailings now shown. Previous Nov 20/21 was withdrawn from public view (but not necessarily cancelled.) WTS. ..... LFH

[ORAC]

France Suspends Mistral Warship Delivery to Russia (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141125/DEFREG01/311250031/France-Suspends-Mistral-Warship-Delivery-Russia)

PARIS — French President François Hollande has placed a hold on the delivery of the first Mistral helicopter carrier to Russia in view of the deadly conflict in east Ukraine, the president’s office said on Tuesday. “The president of the republic considers the present situation in east Ukraine still does not allow the delivery of the first [projection and command ship],” the Elysée president’s office said in a statement. “He has decided that it is appropriate to suspend, until further notice, the examination of the request for export authorization for the first [projection and command ship] to the Russian Federation.”

French ministers previously said Hollande would decide in November whether to grant permission for a delivery. Hollande set two conditions for delivery: the observation of a ceasefire in Ukraine and a political agreement between Moscow and Kiev.

A UN human rights organization has reported that almost 1,000 people have been killed in Ukraine between the ceasefire agreement in September and Nov. 18 Agence-France Press reported. That is an average 13 dead a day and more than 4,300 combatants and civilians slain since pro-Russia insurgents seized regions in eastern Ukraine in April, the UN said. The total figure includes the 298 lives lost in the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight in July, the news agency reported.

The prime contractor, state-owned DCNS, had previously arranged for a hand-over ceremony of the first of two ships — the Vladivostok — to the arms agency Rosoboronexport and a putting into water of the sister ship, Sevastopol, on Nov. 14. DCNS canceled the ceremony, which was revealed by Russian RIA news agency. Sevastopol’s delivery is scheduled for the last quarter of 2015.

France signed the €1.2 billion (US $1.4 billion) deal in 2011, and has come under diplomatic pressure from Western nations and Baltic allies to refuse the hand over to Russia.

[Martin the Martian]

Interesting to note that Marine Le Pen's National Front, who look like real contenders this time around, have received 9 billion Euros' worth of loans from Russian-based banks. If they get into power, how quickly will those ships arrive in Russian ports then?

[Ronald Reagan]

Merkel Said to Reject Ukraine NATO Bid as Rousing Tension - Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-11-26/merkel-said-to-reject-ukraine-s-nato-bid-over-russian-tensions)


Some good news at least, French government has the same opinion also :)

[melmothtw]

Welcome back Ronald, thought you'd been recalled by the Kremlin for a while there....

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/slava_gulag5_zps432e96ea.png (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/slava_gulag5_zps432e96ea.png.html)

[Ronald Reagan]

Thanks for the very kind welcome Mel

[sitigeltfel]

Interesting to note that Marine Le Pen's National Front, who look like real contenders this time around, have received 9 billion Euros' worth of loans from Russian-based banks.


€9 billion? Shoorly shum mishtake! :eek:

[Lordflasheart]

Vladivostok was moved yesterday, from the Normandie Dock back into the Penhoet Basin. She is still showing on AIS as French after a 24 hr spell showing as Russian on Nov 14th for the handover party that didn't happen. She is rumoured to be guarded by Russian Marines because 'someone has been nicking stuff.' Sebastopol was floated out some weeks ago and is tied up probably at a shipyard berth, fitting out, but is not yet showing on AIS. She is due for completion/sea trials sometime next summer. Smolniy, the frigate style training ship which has been used as HQ and floating barracks since June, but also not on AIS, apparently sailed for home yesterday – presumably Leningrad. Whether this is just for Christmas leave or perhaps represents a more permanent departure remains to be seen.


С Рождеством всех .......... LFH

[TEEEJ]

News on the Smolny.

MOSCOW, December 18. /TASS/. Russian training ship The Smolny has checked out of the French port of St Nazaire and is heading for Kronstadt in the Gulf of Finland with more than 400 Russian sailors aboard, a source at the Russian Navy said on Thursday. The sailors have received a course of training in St Nazaire in how to operate the Mistrals.

“At 12:00 hours Moscow Standard Time /09:00 hours GMT/ more than 400 Russian Navy servicemen making up the crews of two Mistrals left French port aboard the Smolny ship and are heading for Kronstadt,” he said.

The Russian crew of the helicopter carrier may return to the France if Paris eventually decides to turn the ship over to Russia, the source told TASS.

TASS: World - Russian crews trained for Mistral ships leave French port ? Russian Navy source (http://itar-tass.com/en/world/767878)

[jindabyne]

Best come back CM!

[ORAC]

Clock Ticking On Mistral Decision, Russia Tells France (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/naval/2014/12/20/mistral-russia-france/20689147/)

MOSCOW — Russia will gladly take back the money it paid for French Mistral-class warships whose handover has been delayed by concerns over Moscow's role in the Ukraine crisis, a deputy defense minister said Saturday.

Yury Borisov also indicated that Paris should make a decision before the new year. "It doesn't matter if the calendar shows December 31, 2014, or January 1, 2015, but we are waiting for France's decision," Interfax news agency quoted him as saying. "We would be content with either development – the Mistrals or the return of all the invested money," he said.

Given the currency crisis in Russia, which saw the ruble rapidly devalue by 50 percent, taking the money from the euro-denominated deal "may actually be preferable," he added.

France, which is struggling economically, is faced with a tough decision: deliver the two mammoth warships to Russia and face the wrath of its NATO allies or end up with two vessels equipped for the Russian navy and pay the price and possibly heavy fines.......

[rh200]

If the frogs play their cards right they could make an extra buck out of this. Depending on how hard up the Russians are, maybe get 80% back to them.

Once the deal is done an dusted, try and get the Chinese or Indians to take them off their hands.

[Lordflasheart]

If the frogs play their cards right they could make an extra buck out of this. Depending on how hard up the Russians are, maybe get 80% back to them. :ok:

You'd have to factor out the 40% that was apparently made in Leningrad and floated down to Saint-Nazaire.

пожалуйста, верните нашу половину в хорошем состоянии

Could get messy. ............ LFH

[Bigbux]

Looks like Russia has been preparing the case to walk away - this State-Sponsored dis-information from Tass:Economy October 27 -

The Mistral-type helicopter carriers have a displacement of 21 tons, the maximum body length of 210 meters, the speed of 18 knots and the range of up to 20,000 miles.

Who on earth would object to cancelling a ship that small? That Putin knows how to manipulate the press eh?.

[Surplus]

BBC News - France seeks end to Russia sanctions over Ukraine (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30679176)
Wonder if the sanctions they want removing include Mistral? :rolleyes:

[ORAC]

Russia Wants Formal French Answer on Mistral (http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/naval/ships/2015/01/13/france-mistral-russia-cancel-vladivostok/21687591/)

PARIS — The French procurement office Tuesday declined to comment on a report Russia has asked for a written statement on whether the Mistral class helicopter carrier will be delivered to Moscow.

Russia officially sent a written request to France for an explanation of the refusal to deliver the Mistral warship, Russian news agency Ria-Novosti reported, according to Agence France-Presse. A Russian official in the military and technical cooperation service sent the letter to the Direction Générale de l'Armement (DGA) procurement office, "with the aim of receiving an official reply," the report said.

A DGA spokesman declined to comment. Russia has called on France to either deliver the Mistral or hand back the payment...........

The Mistral contract is understood to have been written under Swiss law. Under the force majeure clause in a sales contract, there is generally a 180-day suspension until a decision to cancel is required.........

[Lordflasheart]

Sebastopol was floated out of construction in November and has just fired up her marine AIS, joining Vladivostok in the Penhoet Basin. This suggests that fitting out is nearing completion and she may be approaching sea trials time. I wonder if Vlad had a little on the side horoscope-reading chat with Francois in Moscow or Minsk in the last few days. ............... LFH

[Lordflasheart]

French assault helicopter carrier Sebastopol was moved into the Normandie lock about 0700 today and exited for first sea trials after 1300. Currently mixing it with the fishing fleet between Belle-Ile and Noirmoutier.

[Lordflasheart]

Seabass back in port in time for le haut thé and happy hour, Friday.

Presumably a scratch dockyard crew for the five day sea trials.

Reported in today's Times (of London) that the EU is going wobbly over extending sanctions.

[Lonewolf_50]

Seabass back in port in time for le haut thé and happy hour, Friday.

Presumably a scratch dockyard crew for the five day sea trials.

Reported in today's Times (of London) that the EU is going wobbly over extending sanctions.All and sundry are not surprised.

[ORAC]

Russia wants €1.163 billion from France in compensation for cancelling a contract to deliver two Mistral helicopter carriers, a Russian source close to the negotiations said yesterday.

French president François Holland has come under pressure from his western allies not to deliver the Mistrals because of Russia’s role in the Ukraine crisis. He discussed the 2011 contract, worth €1.19 billion, with Russian president Vladimir Putin last month and Moscow said it was willing to accept financial compensation if Paris does not fulfil the deal. The source said Russia was eyeing €1.163 billion, confirming a report yesterday by Russian daily Kommersant, which also said Paris was offering to pay €785 million. “The €1.163 billion figure is a touch below the value of the contract,” said the source.

The spokesman for the Kremlin reiterated yesterday that Russia was ready to accept financial compensation if France scraps the delivery and said the issue was not a major headache in relations between the two countries. “The principle is the following – either the goods or the money,” the spokesman said. – (Reuters)

[Lordflasheart]

Seabass was tugged out at o-crack sparrers today 20th May and is underway for second sea-trials. Expecting a few days off Belle-Ile with a scratch constructors crew of around 200 - apparently enough for three eight hour watches.

There seems to be no change on the alleged conditions for handover of either boats or loot, as indicated in ORAC's post above.

Vlad was quoted late April that he 'expected France to behave honourably and return Russia's money. He said he would not seek "excessive" penalties.' ..... such as the return of the 40% built in a Leningrad shipyard ?

From the FT (of London) 18th May - discussing Washington's interest in the upcoming EU sanctions review -
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1cd86b26-fd7c-11e4-b824-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3afCKoTjX

Quote - "..... concerns in Washington that some EU members might shy away from a full rollover of sanctions. In particular, French and Italian officials have raised the possibility of calibrating the extension to reflect “progress” as the conflict looks less like a full-scale war since the Minsk deal in February." ..... Don't think President Poroshenko would agree with that view.

Entre-temps, retour au Ranch, l'affaire se corse ...

Is China Eyeing These Advanced French Amphibious Assault Ships? | The Diplomat (http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/is-china-eyeing-these-advanced-french-amphibious-assault-ships/) and others .... plus Dixmude visits Shanghai for weeks R&R

'Bucket and Spade' day trips to Spratley Beach anyone ? ............ LFH

[Lordflasheart]

Seabass is back alongside in the Penhoet basin after only 24 hrs. Given the general expectation of a full week of second sea trials, either the trials went swimmingly well, or something needs a dockyard tweak before continuing, or possibly even a telegram saying-

請快上來，我們需要你很快

which might be remotely connected to this thread -

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/478565-conflict-looms-south-china-sea-oil-rush.html ............. LFH

[Courtney Mil]

From the news in France this morning. Russia has decided that it is no longer interested in two helicopter carrier that it had previously ordered from France, deciding to build its own instead.

The €1.2 billion deal over two Mistral helicopter carriers has long plagued French-Russia ties - with a constant back and forth over their fate making headlines for over a year.

On Tuesday, Russia finally decided that enough was enough and said that it would simply make its own.

The matter was complicated due to Russia's involvement in the Ukraine crisis, which meant that France held back from delivering the ships even though Russia had paid for them.

"Russia won’t take them, it’s an accomplished fact," Oleg Bochkaryov, deputy head of Russia's Military Industrial Commission, was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

"Now there’s only one discussion — concerning the money sum that should be returned to Russia."

Russian President Vladimir Putin had recently downplayed the importance of the ships, claiming that Russia ordered them mostly to help the French shipyard. He said earlier this month that Moscow wouldn't be demanding any penalties or exorbitant fines were it to cancel the deal.

A face-saving exercise? I like the way that Russia only ordered them to help France. See, they're good guys after all!

[PhilipG]

With the low price of oil etc and the sanctions that Russia has had imposed upon her, it could be argued that it is a good source of hard foreign currency.

The next question of course is what will happen to the ships and indeed the shipyards.

[Lordflasheart]

It's costing someone 2.5 million Euros per month to keep Vladivostok alongside in Saint-Nazaire. Security, running costs, wharfage etc. Probably less than double for two. What's French for BOGOF ?

There was mention of moving them to Brest.

The idea of a Chinese acquisition is now being touted as a non-starter.
Why China Will Never Operate France?s Mistral-class Amphibious Assault Ships | The Diplomat (http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/why-china-will-never-operate-frances-mistral-class-amphibious-assault-ships/)

[Biggus]

Start a rumour that the Argentine government will buy them in exchange for beef exports......

Then watch the s**t hit the fan as everyone debates that Argentina will now have a significant amphibious capability and pose a real threat to the Falklands..... :E


It worked for Fencers after all!!

[Onceapilot]

Deal Orff!:ooh:

OAP

[rh200]

I think the Frogs now has whats called some COTS carriers for sale:p

[Sandy Parts]

they certainly took a pasting over the costs (according to the Russians...). Loss of the sale and then massive damages including costs for Russian dock works and building prototype new choppers - ouch!

[kbrockman]

Surprised our Indian friends didn't offer to take them of their hands at rock bottom prices.
They have the ambition (3 large Carriers in the near future) and these 2 LHD's would be a perfect fit for them.
Also the Russian equipment on board is probably no issue for them as they already have ample experience working with it.

Look at it as an addendum to the RAFALE contract to soften the price a bit.

[Biggus]

The French view of the current situation:

Russia Mistral: Hollande denies striking compensation deal - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33730700)

[Lyneham Lad]

France and Russia agree to Mistral export termination (http://www.janes.com/article/53470/france-and-russia-agree-to-mistral-export-termination)

Russia and France have formally announced the cancellation of the troubled Mistral-class amphibious assault ships export contract that had been suspended since 2014 as a result of events in Ukraine.

The Kremlin and the Elysee issued joint statements on 5 August confirming the termination of the agreement, with both governments stating that the matter had been "fully resolved".

Under the terms of the agreement, France will return both funds (already paid by Russia) and Russian equipment that had been supplied for installation on the 21,000 tonne full load displacement landing helicopter dock vessels.

The value of the sum to be reimbursed was not disclosed, although Russia noted in a statement released by the Kremlin that the funds have already been received from France.

[pr00ne]

....."France will return both funds (already paid by Russia) and Russian equipment that had been supplied for installation".....

That should be an interesting challenge seeing as the sterns and part of the hulls were built in Russia...

[Lordflasheart]

It seem that both Vladivostok and Sebastopol may have departed Saint-Nazaire 14th/15th January and have (once again) disappeared off the AIS scene. Last time this happened they mysteriously reappeared many miles inland as if someone was playing silly be***rs with the AIS beacons, so this apparent movement may be another red herring.

Or they could now be doing a road test with the new owners, who presumably will want to re-name them and have apparently already signed for some Ka-52Ks. Reported completion of the ship deal is mid-2016.

Ka-52K Katran Helicopter - Naval Technology (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ka-52k-katran-helicopter/)